Where has Ballard been??

[Shive]

5 hours ago, MPStack said:

Why trade for an aging veteran, who as you say is limited. And the team is in win now mode.

Frank addressed this in his presser yesterday. He mentioned how they evaluated their team and where their strengths were, then looked at Ryan's tape and thought that he fit with the strong running game that they had, as he does really well with play action. They thought he was a match for how their team was built, but I don't think they anticipated the OL regression that we've seen.

 

4 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

The question is will Ballard actually draft a QB in the first round? He’s avoided doing it like a plague, and basically admitted openly that he’s scared to do it.

I see so many people say that and that's not at all what he said. He didn't say that he was scared to take a QB early. What he said was that when you take a QB early or give up significant capital to go get one early, you don't go get one just for the sake of getting one. It has to be the right guy.

 

I don't think he's scared of drafting a QB, there just hasn't been one that him and their scouting team believe can be a franchise QB in our draft range without giving up the farm. I get that most will say that if it's the guy you're after, you do what it takes to get him, but that's easier said than done. It takes a lot to move up from where we've been drafting and there's no guarantees you'll be able to move up. You have to find the right team at the right draft slot that will take the compensation you're offering. Again, "you do what it takes" isn't a specific compensation package, so I think it's all a lot more complex than people here like to think it is and Ballard has essentially said that he's not settling. He's not going to take a Blake Bortles or Jake Locker in the first just because they're the "best" of a bad QB class. There's been some really good QBs taken in the past couple of years, but almost all were in the top of the draft where it would have been insanely expensive to trade up to, handcuffing our ability to draft premier talent the next 2-3 years since it would take multiple 1st round picks to move up that far.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

2 hours ago, MPStack said:

Can you elaborate more? Sounds like tanking or do you mean trade up whatever the cost?
 

 

 

Whatever it takes to get their target(s). Not saying they are tanking but obviously the more losses the easier it will be lol. 

I don't think contending with SamE. is out of the question in this division, I don't think 8 or 9 wins is out of the question and that could be good enough for a playoff spot....which will probably not be in the best interest of this organization.

 

A New HC, A New GM, and a highly rated Top QB draft pick is imo what's best for the future. 

[Defjamz26]

25 minutes ago, Shive said:

Frank addressed this in his presser yesterday. He mentioned how they evaluated their team and where their strengths were, then looked at Ryan's tape and thought that he fit with the strong running game that they had, as he does really well with play action. They thought he was a match for how their team was built, but I don't think they anticipated the OL regression that we've seen.

 

I see so many people say that and that's not at all what he said. He didn't say that he was scared to take a QB early. What he said was that when you take a QB early or give up significant capital to go get one early, you don't go get one just for the sake of getting one. It has to be the right guy.

 

I don't think he's scared of drafting a QB, there just hasn't been one that him and their scouting team believe can be a franchise QB in our draft range without giving up the farm. I get that most will say that if it's the guy you're after, you do what it takes to get him, but that's easier said than done. It takes a lot to move up from where we've been drafting and there's no guarantees you'll be able to move up. You have to find the right team at the right draft slot that will take the compensation you're offering. Again, "you do what it takes" isn't a specific compensation package, so I think it's all a lot more complex than people here like to think it is and Ballard has essentially said that he's not settling. He's not going to take a Blake Bortles or Jake Locker in the first just because they're the "best" of a bad QB class. There's been some really good QBs taken in the past couple of years, but almost all were in the top of the draft where it would have been insanely expensive to trade up to, handcuffing our ability to draft premier talent the next 2-3 years since it would take multiple 1st round picks to move up that far.

The actual quote is that the minute he takes a guy and then that kid doesn’t play good, he’ll be the first one run out of town. That’s self preservation. He’s essentially saying he’s not willing to take the risk because his job will be on the line.

 

And I’m calling nonsense on this old argument about the guy not being there. So you’re telling me there wasn’t a single guy in the 2020, 2021, or 2022 draft that was “the guy”. We keep talking about the right guy but how long is it going to take? It’s been 3 years now. 
 

Listen everything you’re saying we’ve heard before. But almost every analyst and former play has said the same thing. You have to take a QB eventually. You can’t wait for all the stars to align. Eventually you either have to find a guy who’s not perfect but you can mold and adapt to (Lamar Jackson) or move up and go get a guy.

 

Nothing else has proven to work consistently. Aside from Peyton, Brady, and Stafford no team has really won anything with a FA QB. And currently all the best teams in football with the exception of the Viking have QBs that they drafted (Giants, Jets, Bills, Chiefs, and Eagles). People clowned the Giants for taking Jones high, but now that he’s got decent protection and a good coach, he looks legit, and that’s without a true number 1 receiver.

[Dobbinblitz]

4 hours ago, MPStack said:

I think you need new leadership for the locker room. 
 

Players have been richly rewarded and are underperforming. The locker room is lost. 

 

What is Irsay telling the players by retaining Ballard, but he has to draft a QB No matter what or else.

 

That’s pretty weak. If, I was Ballard, I’d come to work everyday with my head down. 

 

 

Very good point regarding the locker room. I guess we will find out given that Ryan is out of the picture. 

The spotlight is sure to be more intense on the rest of the roster. My humble opinion remains is that Frank is soft, and does not bring out the best in many of the players on this team which may carryover to the locker room as well.

It appears as if Ballard's head is already down and is using the fire escape to enter the building - it's been crickets from him.

[MPStack]

30 minutes ago, Dobbinblitz said:

Very good point regarding the locker room. I guess we will find out given that Ryan is out of the picture. 

The spotlight is sure to be more intense on the rest of the roster. My humble opinion remains is that Frank is soft, and does not bring out the best in many of the players on this team which may carryover to the locker room as well.

It appears as if Ballard's head is already down and is using the fire escape to enter the building - it's been crickets from him.

I find it hard to believe the FO remains,because they essentially just threw up the 

 

 

 

not even halfway through the season.

 

Exciting times come the end of season.

[ShuteAt168]

Ballard (44-43-1) simps act like no GM in the history of GMs has had to replace a quarterback before. 

[MPStack]

Just now, ShuteAt168 said:

Ballard (44-43-1) simps act like no GM in the history of GMs has had to replace a quarterback before. 

Simps act like you can’t win a division or playoff game without an elite QB. History has shown that to be false. 

[ShuteAt168]

1 hour ago, Zoltan said:

I completely disagree with this take, just because he hasn’t picked a QB doesn’t mean he is avoiding or scared to pick one. Maybe it’s because he hasn’t like any of the QBs in reach. I mean aside from the year we had Luck and didn’t need a QB, look at the drafts. Yeah you have the number 1s like Burrow who we couldn’t of gotten even if we offered 4 1st rounders but aside from that none have really amounted to anything. 

2019: Daniel Jones 6th, Haskins 15th, Drew Lock 42nd. Colts: first pick 26th traded for two 2nds rounders. QB Brissett

2020: Tua 5th, Herbert 6th, Love 26th, Hurts 53rd. Colts first pick 13th traded for Buckner. QB Rivers

2021: Wilson 2nd, Fields 11th, Jones 15th, Trask 64th. Colts first pick 21st Paye, QB Wentz

2022: Pickett 20th. Colts first pick traded for Wentz. 
 

Best chance was 2020 but they had just acquired Rivers and needed DL in a bad way. 

There’s a quote from Ballard where he literally says he’ll get run out of the building when the QB he picks high in the draft plays poorly. It’s telling because 1. It shows he knows his clock starts ticking in earnest when he finally commits to a young QB and 2. Why in the heck would he think the guy is gonna fail? Fairly stunning lack of confidence from a guy w one of the biggest (unearned) egos in the league. 

[ShuteAt168]

1 hour ago, Shive said:

Frank addressed this in his presser yesterday. He mentioned how they evaluated their team and where their strengths were, then looked at Ryan's tape and thought that he fit with the strong running game that they had, as he does really well with play action. They thought he was a match for how their team was built, but I don't think they anticipated the OL regression that we've seen.

 

I see so many people say that and that's not at all what he said. He didn't say that he was scared to take a QB early. What he said was that when you take a QB early or give up significant capital to go get one early, you don't go get one just for the sake of getting one. It has to be the right guy.

 

I don't think he's scared of drafting a QB, there just hasn't been one that him and their scouting team believe can be a franchise QB in our draft range without giving up the farm. I get that most will say that if it's the guy you're after, you do what it takes to get him, but that's easier said than done. It takes a lot to move up from where we've been drafting and there's no guarantees you'll be able to move up. You have to find the right team at the right draft slot that will take the compensation you're offering. Again, "you do what it takes" isn't a specific compensation package, so I think it's all a lot more complex than people here like to think it is and Ballard has essentially said that he's not settling. He's not going to take a Blake Bortles or Jake Locker in the first just because they're the "best" of a bad QB class. There's been some really good QBs taken in the past couple of years, but almost all were in the top of the draft where it would have been insanely expensive to trade up to, handcuffing our ability to draft premier talent the next 2-3 years since it would take multiple 1st round picks to move up that far.

Who cares how expensive it is — if you hit on a young franchise QB, winning can happen fairly quickly. What wouldn’t you give up for Joe Burrow or Josh Allen? It’s hard to imagine a price too steep. 

[James]

Hiding of course.

 

Dude is ridiculously arrogant and dismissive when faced with tough (but fair) questions.

He is an above average talent evaluator, but there is more to being a GM than that. His roster-building philosophy is obsolete in today's NFL. Our team is very talented on average, yes, but that talent is concentrated in positions that are of lesser importance in a pass-dominated league: RB, interior line, LB. Meanwhile we have neglected/failed to address QB, WR (although it’s looking better with Pierce now) LT, edge rusher. Inexcusable.

 

 

[Zoltan]

7 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

There’s a quote from Ballard where he literally says he’ll get run out of the building when the QB he picks high in the draft plays poorly. It’s telling because 1. It shows he knows his clock starts ticking in earnest when he finally commits to a young QB and 2. Why in the heck would he think the guy is gonna fail? Fairly stunning lack of confidence from a guy w one of the biggest (unearned) egos in the league. 

 

I think I know of the quote you are talking about, and it was more of a reference of when he picks a guy he wants it to be the right one, instead of picking one to say they picked one. Which it seems he says that after every draft, because after every draft someone says why didn't you pick [Enter position here] in the first round and every year he says In our evaluation I don't just go we need a [Enter position here] so I'm gonna draft a [Enter position here] in round one, we look at who is on our board and go with the best player available on our board. Sure if you draft a position of need people will like the pick the day of but if you know the player isn't good, it's just a wasted pick.

 

I also don't get the ego thing everyone is talking about, he's confident which I would like a GM to be confident and he does have a pretty good record on draft picks, no one is perfect when it comes to drafting but I would definitely say he is better than most.

[MPStack]

3 minutes ago, James said:

Hiding of course.

 

Dude is ridiculously arrogant and dismissive when faced with tough (but fair) questions.

He is an above average talent evaluator, but there is more to being a GM than that. His roster-building philosophy is obsolete in today's NFL. Our team is very talented on average, yes, but that talent is concentrated in positions that are of lesser importance in a pass-dominated league: RB, interior line, LB. Meanwhile we have neglected/failed to address QB, WR (although it’s looking better with Pierce now) LT, edge rusher. Inexcusable.

 

 

He has not signed one tier 1 FA during his tenure either. 
 

 

[strt182]

What capital has Ballard had to work with really, without mortgaging the farm? It also takes two to tango. You have to have a seller and a buyer. 

[GoColts8818]

4 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

I think I know of the quote you are talking about, and it was more of a reference of when he picks a guy he wants it to be the right one, instead of picking one to say they picked one. Which it seems he says that after every draft, because after every draft someone says why didn't you pick [Enter position here] in the first round and every year he says In our evaluation I don't just go we need a [Enter position here] so I'm gonna draft a [Enter position here] in round one, we look at who is on our board and go with the best player available on our board. Sure if you draft a position of need people will like the pick the day of but if you know the player isn't good, it's just a wasted pick.

 

I also don't get the ego thing everyone is talking about, he's confident which I would like a GM to be confident and he does have a pretty good record on draft picks, no one is perfect when it comes to drafting but I would definitely say he is better than most.

I am also noticing no one is giving him credit for this defense which he brought every player in for.  
 

The offense is a train wreck but even that isn’t as bad as some fear.  They need two maybe three linemen and the most important position in all of sports, the QB but they have good young skill players that frankly Ballard has been proven right on and a good stable of running backs.  
 

Still, and this is why the above might not be enough to save Ballard, he’s whiffed badly two years in a row on a QB.  Does Irsay still have faith in him that he will get it right if he gives him a third chance?  If not Irsay probably shows him the door.

[Zoltan]

18 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

Who cares how expensive it is — if you hit on a young franchise QB, winning can happen fairly quickly. What wouldn’t you give up for Joe Burrow or Josh Allen? It’s hard to imagine a price too steep. 

You weren't gonna get Burrow or any of the 1st overall picks because those teams needed QB and weren't trading. Here's what I put on my other post:

 

2019: Daniel Jones 6th, Haskins 15th, Drew Lock 42nd. Colts: first pick 26th traded for two 2nds rounders. QB Brissett

2020: Tua 5th, Herbert 6th, Love 26th, Hurts 53rd. Colts first pick 13th traded for Buckner. QB Rivers

2021: Wilson 2nd, Fields 11th, Jones 15th, Trask 64th. Colts first pick 21st Paye, QB Wentz

2022: Pickett 20th. Colts first pick traded for Wentz.

 

2018: You had Luck who was the Franchise for what was thought the next 10 years

2019 you weren't gonna get a good player 

2020: you had Rivers and needed a 3 Tech, so why draft a QB when you could get a guarantee good player at what was said most important position on Defense.

2021: Trade up for Fields? but moving to 10 is far and has he really done anything yet while Paye has shown great progress

2022: No first rounder and no Real QBs available 

 

So who are you trading for in those years? and don't say 2020 because he got the QB that his coach wanted for a win now team.

[Zoltan]

2 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

 

Still, and this is why the above might not be enough to save Ballard, he’s whiffed badly two years in a row on a QB.  Does Irsay still have faith in him that he will get it right if he gives him a third chance?  If not Irsay probably shows him the door.

 

That's the real question and I think Reich will take the fall for it, mostly because Reich is on the record saying he had to slam the table and convince Ballard that Wentz was the guy, and with Irsay really being the force on removing Wentz. I think that was the nail in the coffin for Reich being gone even though I think the real problem was Irsay making them get rid of Wentz and have to go dumpster diving for a new QB. I think Irsay is a great owner because he said my dad made me be the GM and I learned I was terrible at that job, that's why I hire them and let them work. He is acting to much like Jerry Jones and that hurt the team this year.

[Indy87]

Ballard:

 

[ShuteAt168]

17 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

You weren't gonna get Burrow or any of the 1st overall picks because those teams needed QB and weren't trading. Here's what I put on my other post:

 

2019: Daniel Jones 6th, Haskins 15th, Drew Lock 42nd. Colts: first pick 26th traded for two 2nds rounders. QB Brissett

2020: Tua 5th, Herbert 6th, Love 26th, Hurts 53rd. Colts first pick 13th traded for Buckner. QB Rivers

2021: Wilson 2nd, Fields 11th, Jones 15th, Trask 64th. Colts first pick 21st Paye, QB Wentz

2022: Pickett 20th. Colts first pick traded for Wentz.

 

2018: You had Luck who was the Franchise for what was thought the next 10 years

2019 you weren't gonna get a good player 

2020: you had Rivers and needed a 3 Tech, so why draft a QB when you could get a guarantee good player at what was said most important position on Defense.

2021: Trade up for Fields? but moving to 10 is far and has he really done anything yet while Paye has shown great progress

2022: No first rounder and no Real QBs available 

 

So who are you trading for in those years? and don't say 2020 because he got the QB that his coach wanted for a win now team.

I think you surely understand that Burrow and Allen were just placeholders in my post, representative of star QBs that are worth virtually any price. That’s an interesting list you put together and interesting to read. What jumps out is “you had Rivers.” I think that kind of thinking, in part, is why this team has suffered in mediocrity under Ballard. My full time job isn’t NFL GM and I won’t pretend to be as knowledgeable as you or some other posters. What I do know is results — a .500 record under The Smartest Guy in the Room and we sit here today in a total mess with no franchise QB and having never even taken a shot at getting one or developing one. Hell, who’s to say one of these failed young QBs wouldn’t have excelled under our superior player development? Ballard has had enough time. It’s surprising to me so many fans are cool with .500 but everyone is entitled to be the type of fan they want to be. 

[Shive]

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

The actual quote is that the minute he takes a guy and then that kid doesn’t play good, he’ll be the first one run out of town. That’s self preservation. He’s essentially saying he’s not willing to take the risk because his job will be on the line.

The exact quote was:

“Go back and look at first-round quarterbacks drafted over the last 10 years. It is not an exact science. Everybody just thinks you just take one, and you’re going to fix the problem.

 

Look, taking one will get y’all off my * for a little bit, but the second that guy doesn’t play well, I’m gonna be the first one run out of the building. I promise you we get the importance of the quarterback position. But the difference between just taking one and taking the right one is the key in our minds. We’ll explore it. We’ll examine it. We’ll go A to Z on it, I promise you. That position never leaves my mind, and it’s something we want to get fixed. But also there’s got to be a little bit of timing and luck that comes into play when you get it.”

 

Again, it has to be the RIGHT one.

 

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

And I’m calling nonsense on this old argument about the guy not being there. So you’re telling me there wasn’t a single guy in the 2020, 2021, or 2022 draft that was “the guy”. We keep talking about the right guy but how long is it going to take? It’s been 3 years now. 

Zoltan posted a list of the QBs drafted in the past few years and it's not that pretty. Who should we have picked and what would our compensation package have been to move up to get them?

 

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

Listen everything you’re saying we’ve heard before. But almost every analyst and former play has said the same thing. You have to take a QB eventually. You can’t wait for all the stars to align. Eventually you either have to find a guy who’s not perfect but you can mold and adapt to (Lamar Jackson) or move up and go get a guy.

 

Nothing else has proven to work consistently. Aside from Peyton, Brady, and Stafford no team has really won anything with a FA QB. And currently all the best teams in football with the exception of the Viking have QBs that they drafted (Giants, Jets, Bills, Chiefs, and Eagles). People clowned the Giants for taking Jones high, but now that he’s got decent protection and a good coach, he looks legit, and that’s without a true number 1 receiver.

1. Daniel Jones is serviceable, but I wouldn't say he looks legit.

2. I'm not against drafting a QB and was one of the biggest proponents on this forum for drafting Love. As of right now, I was wrong about him, so it's probably best we didn't draft him.

3. Again, drafting a guy just to draft one gets you the Blake Bortles, Jake Lockers, and Brandon Weedens. There is an enormous bust rate for 1st round QBs just because teams overdraft sub-par talent. Everyone clamoring for just drafting someone just to show you're trying would be the same one crucifying Ballard for being a terrible talent evaluator and that him giving up 2 1st round picks and multiple day 2 and 3 picks has set this franchise back a decade. The grass is greener until it's not and somehow the same folks are still holding pitchforks criticizing the action that they once advocated for.

 

38 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

Who cares how expensive it is — if you hit on a young franchise QB, winning can happen fairly quickly. What wouldn’t you give up for Joe Burrow or Josh Allen? It’s hard to imagine a price too steep. 

Joe Burrow was never going anywhere else besides Cincy. They had the #1 pick and needed a QB. They weren't moving anywhere, so he's not even a legitimate answer. In 2018, we had Andrew Luck, so we were never going to draft Josh Allen.

 

I'm curious if you have any actual examples of QBs we legitimately had a shot at drafting and what compensation we could have given up at the time to get them.

[Zoltan]

9 minutes ago, ShuteAt168 said:

I think you surely understand that Burrow and Allen were just placeholders in my post, representative of star QBs that are worth virtually any price. That’s an interesting list you put together and interesting to read. What jumps out is “you had Rivers.” I think that kind of thinking, in part, is why this team has suffered in mediocrity under Ballard. My full time job isn’t NFL GM and I won’t pretend to be as knowledgeable as you or some other posters. What I do know is results — a .500 record under The Smartest Guy in the Room and we sit here today in a total mess with no franchise QB and having never even taken a shot at getting one or developing one. Hell, who’s to say one of these failed young QBs wouldn’t have excelled under our superior player development? Ballard has had enough time. It’s surprising to me so many fans are cool with .500 but everyone is entitled to be the type of fan they want to be. 

So tell me who would have you drafted and you missed the second point of 2020 you have Rivers and with the pick you got a player to fill a position of need at what was said the most important position of your defense. 
 

So instead of the philosophical answer of they should of drafted a Franchise QB tell me where are you moving up and who are you drafting with the draft capital we had at the time?

 

Because that is a lot harder than saying draft better

[Defjamz26]

44 minutes ago, Shive said:

Joe Burrow was never going anywhere else besides Cincy. They had the #1 pick and needed a QB. They weren't moving anywhere, so he's not even a legitimate answer. In 2018, we had Andrew Luck, so we were never going to draft Josh Allen.

 

I'm curious if you have any actual examples of QBs we legitimately had a shot at drafting and what compensation we could have given up at the time to get them.

I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. I think he’s just using them as an example of clear franchise QBs who experienced winning fairly early on. I think what’s he’s asking what wouldn’t you give up to get one of those guys? Be it trade or the draft, is there really any offer that would be crazy. I mean if CJ Stroud for example is the next Josh Allen, is 3 1sts, and two 2nd round picks really crazy?

 

50 minutes ago, Shive said:

But also there’s got to be a little bit of timing and luck that comes into play when you get it.”

And that part of the quote is complete nonsense. The only Luck part is when the year a clear cut franchise guy is coming out, you end up with the 1st round pick like the Colts did for Luck (pun intended). But there isn’t any luck or timing or star’s aligning. That’s what an uninformed GM would say. To get a WBwithout having a top 5 draft pick you have to be aggressive. Chiefs moved up for Mahomes, Ravens moved up Lamar, and the Bills moved up for Allen. The only luck I see is that the Charges didn’t have to trade up but they were picking 6 and didn’t have any QB needy teams ahead of them. If Jordan Love ever ends up doing anything in the league we’ll add him to the list as well.

 

Are we supposed to say that just because the Rams and Eagles both traded up for Goff and Wentz which didn’t work that that is the standard?

[hoosierhawk]

9 hours ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

You do realize there is only so much you can do with a guy like Ryan. Just wait and see in the next few weeks as San gets comfy how different it is. Sam opens up the playbook a ton.

This is not Franks first year. He has done nothing with the talent he's been given. Great players just don't grow on trees. Good players become great player with good coaching. Frank is too busy trying to call plays rather than performing his main job which is being the head coach.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, Zoltan said:

You weren't gonna get Burrow or any of the 1st overall picks because those teams needed QB and weren't trading. Here's what I put on my other post:

 

2019: Daniel Jones 6th, Haskins 15th, Drew Lock 42nd. Colts: first pick 26th traded for two 2nds rounders. QB Brissett

2020: Tua 5th, Herbert 6th, Love 26th, Hurts 53rd. Colts first pick 13th traded for Buckner. QB Rivers

2021: Wilson 2nd, Fields 11th, Jones 15th, Trask 64th. Colts first pick 21st Paye, QB Wentz

2022: Pickett 20th. Colts first pick traded for Wentz.

 

2018: You had Luck who was the Franchise for what was thought the next 10 years

2019 you weren't gonna get a good player 

2020: you had Rivers and needed a 3 Tech, so why draft a QB when you could get a guarantee good player at what was said most important position on Defense.

2021: Trade up for Fields? but moving to 10 is far and has he really done anything yet while Paye has shown great progress

2022: No first rounder and no Real QBs available 

 

So who are you trading for in those years? and don't say 2020 because he got the QB that his coach wanted for a win now team.

2020.

 

I think many would argue:

 

• Now that Ballard is getting criticism from many, I see a narrative evolving where its Frank who is really responsible for telling Ballard what to do.
• Signing Rivers was a win now move...and only that year because Rivers was very old.
• Trading for Buck was a win ow move also because it mortgaged the future.  Because even if you sign a 38 year old Rivers for 2 years, that doesn't change anything about moving around for your future QB during that draft.  The rook would have had a 5 year contract.

Signing Rivers and giving up pick 13 looks like a chips all in move for one year.  Especially with AC's contract expiring and TY starting to show age.

 

But 2020 is kinda also playing catch up after years of spending a 2017 top 15 pick on a failed FS and 2018 top 10 pick on a G.  If capital was allocated appropriately back then, maybe the defense doesn't need the 3T/pass rusher so badly in 2020.

 

[SR711]

So basically Irsay comes in and demands ("heavy influence" in media speak) Ehlinger be named the starter after watching an inept offense for the better part of 7 games.  This comes after he basically demanded Carson Wentz not be the QB anymore for this franchise after the end to last season.  From everything that has been reported from a variety of different sources, I think we can all safely assume Chris Ballard was neither the instigator or driving force behind either of these decisions.  

 

What that tells me is that regarding the most important position in football, either a) our GM has a plan, vision that is not being followed or ignored due to lackluster results/outcome or b) really has no concrete plan and is essentially yes-man to Irsay and basically does his bidding. 

 

IMO neither scenarios listed are painting Ballard in a good light here to maintain his job as GM of this team.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, SR711 said:

So basically Irsay comes in and demands ("heavy influence" in media speak) Ehlinger be named the starter after watching an inept offense for the better part of 7 games.  This comes after he basically demanded Carson Wentz not be the QB anymore for this franchise after the end to last season.  From everything that has been reported from a variety of different sources, I think we can all safely assume Chris Ballard was neither the instigator or driving force behind either of these decisions.  

 

What that tells me is that regarding the most important position in football, either a) our GM has a plan, vision that is not being followed or ignored due to lackluster results/outcome or b) really has no concrete plan and is essentially yes-man to Irsay and basically does his bidding. 

 

IMO neither scenarios listed are painting Ballard in a good light here to maintain his job as GM of this team.  

It’s funny Irsay demanded Wentz be gone and Ryan was worse. He should of stayed out of the Wentz thing and kept him another year.  Then we would of been free and clear after this year. There was a lot of unique things that happened last season at the beginning and end but Irsay let his personal hatred for Wentz get in the way.

[GoColts8818]

22 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

It’s funny Irsay demanded Wentz be gone and Ryan was worse. He should of stayed out of the Wentz thing and kept him another year.  Then we would of been free and clear after this year. There was a lot of unique things that happened last season at the beginning and end but Irsay let his personal hatred for Wentz get in the way.

Both can be (and are true)

 

Wentz wasn’t the answer.

 

Ryan isn’t the answer either.

 

Ryan not working out doesn’t make Wentz better.  There were issues with Wentz too that were going to prevent him from being the answer wherever he is the QB.

 

Also, you have no clue if Irsay personally hated Wentz.  That’s just an assumption you are making.  All we know is Irsay didn’t think Wentz was the answer for them at QB.  That can be be and probably isn’t personal.  Just because you don’t think Wentz was an issue doesn’t mean Irsay couldn’t come to a different conclusion without just hating Wentz.  Also, just because they didn’t think Wentz wasn’t the answer doesn’t mean there aren’t other issues.  There clearly are.  That doesn’t mean Wentz wasn’t an issue too.

[Zoltan]

31 minutes ago, DougDew said:

2020.

 

I think many would argue:

 

• Now that Ballard is getting criticism from many, I see a narrative evolving where its Frank who is really responsible for telling Ballard what to do.
• Signing Rivers was a win now move...and only that year because Rivers was very old.
• Trading for Buck was a win ow move also because it mortgaged the future.  Because even if you sign a 38 year old Rivers for 2 years, that doesn't change anything about moving around for your future QB during that draft.  The rook would have had a 5 year contract.

Signing Rivers and giving up pick 13 looks like a chips all in move for one year.  Especially with AC's contract expiring and TY starting to show age.

 

But 2020 is kinda also playing catch up after years of spending a 2017 top 15 pick on a failed FS and 2018 top 10 pick on a G.  If capital was allocated appropriately back then, maybe the defense doesn't need the 3T/pass rusher so badly in 2020.

 

That still doesn’t answer, just giving a year. But okay 2020 who are you trading with and what picks because the top 6 didn’t trade with anyone so we don’t know if any had interest in trading down. Which I guarantee there were teams looking at trading above the Dolphins and Chargers but to get a QB you are looking at trading from 13 to at least 4th overall to get Tua or Herbert. 

 

2nd overall wouldn’t trade because they got the best non-QB in the draft 

 

3rd makes the most sense with the Lions. 
 

4th I doubt because the Giants needed major help on the OL to protect Daniel Jones. 
 

So most likely you are trading 13 and at least 2 1sts to move up to get a QB, when your team believes it is in a win now mode and completely neglecting the defense. That just doesn’t make sense and I guarantee that 90% of this forum would be super mad saying why waste a pick on a QB that isn’t gonna play for 2 years and let’s be real Kinlaw made way more sense for the Colts if they kept that pick

[hoosierhawk]

2 hours ago, MPStack said:

He has not signed one tier 1 FA during his tenure either. 
 

 

Buckner is not in that class? Gottcha!

[GoColts8818]

3 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Buckner is not in that class? Gottcha!

He will point that being a trade and ignore that they got a super star player because if they acknowledge that it doesn’t support the agenda they want to push.  Personally I don’t care where you get good players from, a draft, free agency, trades, as long as you get good players.  
 

If people want to have a discussion about his ability to get good players as a whole that’s fine and probably merited and an interesting debate.  Just to rail on him because he doesn’t spend big money in free agency?  Not interested in that.

[DougDew]

29 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

when your team believes it is in a win now mode and

Aye me Lad...and there's the rub!

 

Why would they be in win now mode a few years after getting a team with a "bare roster", their top 15 pick "game changing" average FS they drafted coming off of IR, and after foregoing more trade downs to take a G with a top 6 pick...and one year after going 6-10 and demoting their $30M starting QB to a backup ...would anybody think they are remotely near a win now mode?  

 

Could have traded up for a QB, or trade down and take Love who is still waiting with his 5 year contract behind Rogers, or taken ACs replacement, or TYs replacement, got more capital for the next year,  to take ACs replacement, TYs replacement...groom or sign a different QB to play with a better roster, .etc.  All sorts of decision trees branch from a single decision

 

But most GMS and HCs don't get fired because the owner goes down a list of possible alternative decisions, they just look at where they stand after so many years. 

12 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

You know the difference 

Frankly, I don't even know what you're talking about.   But have one for me tonight!

[Zoltan]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Aye me Lad...and there's the rub!

 

Why would they be in win now mode a few years after getting a team with a "bare roster", their top 15 pick "game changing" average FS they drafted coming off of IR, and after foregoing more trade downs to take a G with a top 6 pick...and one year after going 6-10 and demoting their $30M starting QB to a backup ...would anybody think they are remotely near a win now mode?  

 

Could have traded up for a QB, or trade down and take Love who is still waiting with his 5 year contract behind Rogers, or taken ACs replacement, or TYs replacement, got more capital for the next year,  to take ACs replacement, TYs replacement...groom or sign a different QB to play with a better roster, .etc.  All sorts of decision trees branch from a single decision

 

But most GMS and HCs don't get fired because the owner goes down a list of possible alternative decisions, they just look at where they stand after so many years. 

Frankly, I don't even know what you're talking about.   But have one for me tonight!

You haven’t once even tried to answer the question of what’s the trade and for what QB, because it is easier to say they should of done something instead of actually looking if it was possible and why draft replacements when you can get a great player at a position of need which they did. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

54 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Both can be (and are true)

 

Wentz wasn’t the answer.

 

Ryan isn’t the answer either.

 

Ryan not working out doesn’t make Wentz better.  There were issues with Wentz too that were going to prevent him from being the answer wherever he is the QB.

 

Also, you have no clue if Irsay personally hated Wentz.  That’s just an assumption you are making.  All we know is Irsay didn’t think Wentz was the answer for them at QB.  That can be be and probably isn’t personal.  Just because you don’t think Wentz was an issue doesn’t mean Irsay couldn’t come to a different conclusion without just hating Wentz.  Also, just because they didn’t think Wentz wasn’t the answer doesn’t mean there aren’t other issues.  There clearly are.  That doesn’t mean Wentz wasn’t an issue too.

Never said that the reason you keep Wentz  was he sas  the answer. I have said there was no upgrade so it was a dumb move. We would of had no dead cap after this year had we kept our him. And yes Wentz was better.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Zoltan said:

You haven’t once even tried to answer the question of what’s the trade and for what QB, because it is easier to say they should of done something instead of actually looking if it was possible and why draft replacements when you can get a great player at a position of need which they did. 

Tua, or Herbert in a trade up.   Love or Hurts in a trade down gaining more capital to build the roster.  The trades would be based on talking to other teams and getting the best offer...do you want me to pretend who the teams are and what they would say? 

 

All would have been thinking more towards the building of the future roster (which needed building) than to try to win a SB for one year by signing a 2-more season Rivers (who only gave us one) and using two sources of capital (pick 13 AND $18M per year?) for one player, Buckner.

 

We could back the clock up to 2017 and figure all of the alternative decisions coming from not drafting Hooker and drafting Marlon Humphrey instead, or taking BUFs offer of pick 12 and 23 for pick 6 in 2018.  Or not taking RYS and taking Deebo in 2019.  All would have/could have changed the roster or capital we accumulated to possibly even trade for a different vet QB that would have been offered.  Who knows.

 

As an aside, I have not advocated firing Frank or Ballard.  We are 3-3-1 and just changed QBs to a younger athletic player.  We finally drafted positions of importance the past two years and they look pretty good.  I'll wait to see if we go 2 and 5; or 5 and 2 from here, then probably advocate firing or keeping.  No need to make that fan decision now, is there?

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Never said that the reason you keep Wentz  was he sas  the answer. I have said there was no upgrade so it was a dumb move. We would of had no dead cap after this year had we kept our him. And yes Wentz was better.

Ryan looked every bit of an upgrade and that’s not just fans opinions here.  That was the narrative nationally.  Unfortunately it didn’t work out.  The largest reason it didn’t work out was because of the line, Reich even acknowledged that when he said they didn’t keep their end of the deal.  That was going to be an issue even with Wentz and when Wentz was under pressure is when he would make mistakes.  So no I don’t buy that Wentz was better.  I think he would have had the same issues Ryan had without the fourth quarter comebacks Ryan had.   
 

Also, if you think someone isn’t the answer you don’t just keep them and hope for a different result.  You try something else and keep trying until you find the answer.  That’s why getting ride of Wentz was the right move even though what they tried to replace him didn’t work.  The fact Ryan didn’t work out doesn’t make dumping Wentz now wrong.  It just means getting Ryan was it’s own mistake.  

[Shive]

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. I think he’s just using them as an example of clear franchise QBs who experienced winning fairly early on. I think what’s he’s asking what wouldn’t you give up to get one of those guys? Be it trade or the draft, is there really any offer that would be crazy. I mean if CJ Stroud for example is the next Josh Allen, is 3 1sts, and two 2nd round picks really crazy?

Fair interpretation that I didn't catch. Using hindsight, it's easier to justify giving up a ton of picks for either of those guys just because we know how they turned out, but it's such a gamble and neither of those guys were sure things in their draft classes.

 

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

And that part of the quote is complete nonsense. The only Luck part is when the year a clear cut franchise guy is coming out, you end up with the 1st round pick like the Colts did for Luck (pun intended). But there isn’t any luck or timing or star’s aligning.

What about the rest of the quote?

 

To your point, there is some luck involved. You have to have a guy that you think is your guy, have multiple dominoes ahead of you fall a very specific way, and you have to find a willing trade partner that will accept the compensation you're offering and is ok dropping down in the 1st round to when you're trading up from. Your willingness to give up more draft capital to move up is a component for sure, but how much you'll pay for the draft spot doesn't mean anything if everything above doesn't fall into place.

 

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

To get a WBwithout having a top 5 draft pick you have to be aggressive. Chiefs moved up for Mahomes, Ravens moved up Lamar, and the Bills moved up for Allen. The only luck I see is that the Charges didn’t have to trade up but they were picking 6 and didn’t have any QB needy teams ahead of them. If Jordan Love ever ends up doing anything in the league we’ll add him to the list as well.

Ravens moved up to 32 by giving up a 2nd, a future 2nd, and swapped 4ths. I'd hardly call that being aggressive. Chiefs and Bills made their moves for 2 guys that were both viewed as boom or bust prospects. Of course we know that it worked out for the teams, but there's exponentially more teams in draft history that made similar moves (some using way more draft capital) that drafted guys that absolutely busted.

 

Love didn't look good at all in his limited game action, but he was a guy I liked and would like to see do well.

 

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Are we supposed to say that just because the Rams and Eagles both traded up for Goff and Wentz which didn’t work that that is the standard?

Goff and Wentz are 2 more recent examples, but they're hardly the only. Here's a list of all QBs taken in the first round in the last 11 years (more recent years excluded since the jury is still out) with busts or guys that didn't become high level starters bolded:

 

2018

1. Baker Mayfield, Oklahoma, Browns

3. Sam Darnold, USC, Jets

7. Josh Allen, Wyoming, Bills

10. Josh Rosen, UCLA, Cardinals

32. Lamar Jackson, Louisville, Ravens

___

2017:

2. Mitch Trubisky, UNC, Bears

10. Patrick Mahomes, Texas Tech, Chiefs

12. Deshaun Watson, Clemson, Texans

___

2016:

1. Jared Goff, California, Rams

2. Carson Wentz, North Dakota State, Eagles

26. Paxton Lynch, Memphis, Broncos

___

2015:

1. Jameis Winston, Florida State, Buccaneers

2. Marcus Mariota, Oregon, Titans

___

2014:

3. Blake Bortles, Central Florida, Jaguars

22. Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M, Browns

32. Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville, Vikings

___

2013:

16. EJ Manuel, Florida State, Bills

___

2012:

1. Andrew Luck, Stanford, Colts

2. Robert Griffin III, Baylor, Redskins

8. Ryan Tannehill, Texas A&M, Dolphins

22. Brandon Weeden, Oklahoma State, Browns

___

2011:

1. Cam Newton, Auburn, Panthers

8. Jake Locker, Washington, Titans

10. Blaine Gabbert, Missouri, Jaguars

12. Christian Ponder, Florida State, Vikings

 

Way more guys drafted in the first that didn't pan out than did... Some of those guys cost their team just their original 1st while others cost multiple.

[Boondoggle]

3 hours ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

It’s funny Irsay demanded Wentz be gone and Ryan was worse. He should of stayed out of the Wentz thing and kept him another year.  Then we would of been free and clear after this year. There was a lot of unique things that happened last season at the beginning and end but Irsay let his personal hatred for Wentz get in the way.

Yes.  His impatience definitely cost the team.

[Zoltan]

50 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Tua, or Herbert in a trade up.   Love or Hurts in a trade down gaining more capital to build the roster.  The trades would be based on talking to other teams and getting the best offer...do you want me to pretend who the teams are and what they would say? 

 

 

Yes, because you have to have two teams to make a trade and the thing is the top 6 picks none of them were traded, which I guarantee there were teams trying to trade above the chargers and Miami to draft a QB, but no moves were made so why do you think the Colts would of been able to move up 9/10 spots to get one of those two? Lions needed a CB bad and Okudah was the best in the draft if they traded with us they would of lost him same with the Giants with Thomas they needed a OT to protect their franchise QB in Jones.

 

Now Love and Hurts are more believable but right now it looks like a good move by the Colts to not pick Love and if you pick him you are not getting Michael Pittman or Jonathan Taylor and maybe you're not getting both. Hurts was probably the most realistic one but no one thought he was a starter and some thought he should switch to RB.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

7 hours ago, James said:

 

He is an above average talent evaluator, but there is more to being a GM than that. His roster-building philosophy is obsolete in today's NFL. Our team is very talented on average, yes, but that talent is concentrated in positions that are of lesser importance in a pass-dominated league: RB, interior line, LB. Meanwhile we have neglected/failed to address QB, WR (although it’s looking better with Pierce now) LT, edge rusher. Inexcusable.

 

 

 

Not so sure about the Bolded.

 

His first draft was not good..

 

He drafted a Guard with Josh Allen on the Board. He's as close to being Bert Jones as anyone can be. I know we had luck, but he was a question mark both physically and mentally at the time and if he was so good at evaluating talent he should have known how good Allen is and at the very worst he could have flipped Allen for a few #1's if Luck panned out.

 

He passed on DK Metcalf and other WR's for Paris Campbell. 

 

He's missed consistently on Pass Rushers. 

 

He Failed to Evaluate Justin.Herberts talent, and instead of moving up to get him, he traded for Buckner instead. Buckner is a Monster but I'd rather have a elite.QB.

 

Not to mention the mess at LT since AC retired.

 

And last but not least, he failed to evaluate properly how little Ryan had left in the tank.

 

I agree with everything else you said.

[Zoltan]

21 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

Not so sure about the Bolded.

 

His first draft was not good..

 

He drafted a Guard with Josh Allen on the Board. He's as close to being Bert Jones as anyone can be. I know we had luck, but he was a question mark both physically and mentally at the time and if he was so good at evaluating talent he should have known how good Allen is and at the very worst he could have flipped Allen for a few #1's if Luck panned out.

 

He passed on DK Metcalf and other WR's for Paris Campbell. 

 

He's missed consistently on Pass Rushers. 

 

He Failed to Evaluate Justin.Herberts talent, and instead of moving up to get him, he traded for Buckner instead. Buckner is a Monster but I'd rather have a elite.QB.

 

Not to mention the mess at LT since AC retired.

 

And last but not least, he failed to evaluate properly how little Ryan had left in the tank.

 

I agree with everything else you said.

To Everyone who is saying we should of drafted Allen even though we had luck. I gotta say it’s the most ridiculous take I have ever heard and makes absolutely no sense. Wasting a top 10 pick on a player you don’t expect to play and probably won’t get the same capital back because everyone would assume he was a bust when you move off of him, not to mention Daboll had a huge influence on his development as a QB

[Dingus McGirt]

18 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Prediction.  Frank Reich is the new OC for the Patriots next year.  Mac Jones flourishes again.

“Again??”