Kelly contract restructure

[richard pallo]

I think the timing of this restructure signals something is definitely afoot.  No reason to do Q or Hines now.  My best guess is Ertz.  We already did the one trade with them that might have opened the door for conversations to start again.  We claimed that TE and released him right away.  Seems they are looking to upgrade there.  Ertz had a great camp too.  Might have been enough for them to try and get him for Wentz.  We could always restructure Buckner too no? 

[lollygagger8]

Maybe they are making more room to sign a WR

[JediXMan]

6 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think the timing of this restructure signals something is definitely afoot.  No reason to do Q or Hines now.  My best guess is Ertz.  We already did the one trade with them that might have opened the door for conversations to start again.  We claimed that TE and released him right away.  Seems they are looking to upgrade there.  Ertz had a great camp too.  Might have been enough for them to try and get him for Wentz.  We could always restructure Buckner too no? 

Ertz and Eagles have patched things up and he’s staying for now. 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think the timing of this restructure signals something is definitely afoot.  No reason to do Q or Hines now.  My best guess is Ertz.  We already did the one trade with them that might have opened the door for conversations to start again.  We claimed that TE and released him right away.  Seems they are looking to upgrade there.  Ertz had a great camp too.  Might have been enough for them to try and get him for Wentz.  We could always restructure Buckner too no? 

We'd still be 1.5M short of enough cap space to take Ertz.

And then you have to ask what we'd be giving them. They have our likely 1st already, plus the 6 for Pryor/7th

6 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

Maybe they are making more room to sign a WR

WR might be our deepest unit right now aside from RB.

And we just picked up Coutee.

[John Hammonds]

Why are we talking about expensive, veteran free agent trades and cap space and who is on an acquisition list and.....???

 

We have our team.  The season is about to start.  We've practiced together (ok, most of us have), and we know how to play together.  We've built a cohesive team.  Any roster moves from here on out are either to shore up a weakness in backup players, or will be emergency acquisitions to fill in for injured players.

 

We're not trading for anyone.  Not at this point in the season.

[TaylorTheStudMuffin]

23 minutes ago, w87r said:

The only thing I could think of here is they were looking at the total cap space, not top 51.

 

Obviously when you cut down 15-20 players to get to 53, you will clear close to $15-$20m in total cap savings

Yeah I think it meant roster cuts down to 53.

[Superman]

Remember when I told everyone the Colts cap would be tight this season? Here it is.

 

I think it's even tighter than they anticipated. At some point (this week, or next), the top 51 offseason rule goes away, and every player contract -- all 53 active, plus practice squad, plus IR, plus PUP, plus dead money -- counts against the cap. We have about $20m on IR/PUP, pending injury settlements (including Te'vi, who probably would have been released outright if not for his injury).

 

So, for example, Ehlinger, who was probably destined for PS this season at about $250k, is still on the cap at $450k. Plus, we had to bring back Hundley at nearly $250k. It creates a double dip. Or like Te'vi, even if he wasn't going to be released, now he's on the cap, plus his replacement is on the cap. Another double dip. These start to add up.

 

And right now, they have to get under the cap, while some of the roster management is on hold, pending settlements, short term IR resolutions, etc. Kelly's restructure gives them some much needed breathing room. And in the coming weeks, they'll probably get a little bit more relief as they resolve things with some injured players. At this time, we still don't have room to add another player contract. If a Nelson or Hines deal gets done right now, it has to be done in a way that their 2021 cap hit does not increase.

[richard pallo]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

We'd still be 1.5M short of enough cap space to take Ertz.

And then you have to ask what we'd be giving them. They have our likely 1st already, plus the 6 for Pryor/7th

WR might be our deepest unit right now aside from RB.

And we just picked up Coutee.

I was thinking we are currently carrying 11 DL I believe.  One more than usual.  We could trade one of them.  Banogu had a good camp as well as Turay or maybe Lewis.  Siranni knows our players.  I could see one of them being included.

[w87r]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

And you'd think if Indy and Philly have been talking about an Ertz trade, why wasn't Chachere not part of it (if Philly really needed him, why risk exposure to claims).

Yeah, I don't think Ertz is coming here, unless he is cut or they take late round pick(5th-7th).

 

We could make the money work. If we were to trade them Doyle.

 

Then we would have like a net cap hit from Ertz at:

Ertz $8m

- Doyle $4m

 

+ Doyle Dead Cap Hit $1.75m

 

Colts Total Net Cap Hit would be: $5.75m

 

 

Just don't see it. We would be up against the cap at that point.

 

 

We can move more money around still, so anything is possible.

[PrincetonTiger]

Earlier this week the Colts released Togiai from the IR which helps a bit

[Fluke_33]

1 hour ago, w87r said:

I thought they might do this earlier in the offseason, at the present moment it seems the timing is a little weird?

 

1. Q extension?

2. High $ FA?

3. Just to have extra space?(Doesn't feel like this one)

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/09/03/colts-restructure-ryan-kellys-contract-to-create-cap-space/

 

I remember when you brought this up before and it didn't make any sense to me.  Why not just have the orginal K do that instead of modifiying it a year later.  so strange to me but kudos to you you called this one early!

[csmopar]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

Remember when I told everyone the Colts cap would be tight this season? Here it is.

 

I think it's even tighter than they anticipated. At some point (this week, or next), the top 51 offseason rule goes away, and every player contract -- all 53 active, plus practice squad, plus IR, plus PUP, plus dead money -- counts against the cap. We have about $20m on IR/PUP, pending injury settlements (including Te'vi, who probably would have been released outright if not for his injury).

 

So, for example, Ehlinger, who was probably destined for PS this season at about $250k, is still on the cap at $450k. Plus, we had to bring back Hundley at nearly $250k. It creates a double dip. Or like Te'vi, even if he wasn't going to be released, now he's on the cap, plus his replacement is on the cap. Another double dip. These start to add up.

 

And right now, they have to get under the cap, while some of the roster management is on hold, pending settlements, short term IR resolutions, etc. Kelly's restructure gives them some much needed breathing room. And in the coming weeks, they'll probably get a little bit more relief as they resolve things with some injured players. At this time, we still don't have room to add another player contract. If a Nelson or Hines deal gets done right now, it has to be done in a way that their 2021 cap hit does not increase.

Could they restructure Wentz contract any?

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I was thinking we are currently carrying 11 DL I believe.  One more than usual.  We could trade one of them.  Banogu had a good camp as well as Turay or maybe Lewis.  Siranni knows our players.  I could see one of them being included.

I could see Banogu, and a few others as trade bait, just not sure I'd use that capital for a TE right now. We picked up Granson (although he's shaky) with our 3rd, and we have some big WRs that have TE size. Just not feeling it. Really doubt we'd part with Turay. And no way we part with Lewis. Lewis for a TE. Lewis is set to play a big part in our DL. If anything, a Doyle for Ertz swap is the only thing I could see to make things work. Still don't see it.

 

 

4 minutes ago, w87r said:

Yeah, I don't think Ertz is coming here, unless he is cut or they take late round pick(5th-7th).

 

We could make the money work. If we were to trade them Doyle.

 

Then we would have like a net cap hit from Ertz at:

Ertz $8m

- Doyle $4m

 

+ Doyle Dead Cap Hit $1.75m

 

Colts Total Net Cap Hit would be: $5.75m

 

Just don't see it. We would be up against the cap at that point.

 

We can move more money around still, so anything is possible.

Agreed. We could make a lot of things work, just not sure we'd go and do it. More bigger needs than TE right now IMO. I was just responding to about a Doyle swap, but don't see it. 

[TaylorTheStudMuffin]

They are in great shape in the next two years though.  

[TaylorTheStudMuffin]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Could they restructure Wentz contract any?

I believe they did that after he was traded here. It took something in his contract and divided it over two years instead of just this year.

[w87r]

16 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

I remember when you brought this up before and it didn't make any sense to me.  Why not just have the orginal K do that instead of modifiying it a year later.  so strange to me but kudos to you you called this one early!

I was just looking back at it Mid-Feb mock draft/offseason. Even had that $6.75m figure. Thanks. Also, I think that option was worked in on Kelly's deal with that exact intention as long as he came back healthy from neck injury. If he didn't come back healthy then they could of cut bait after this year with limited to no future cap ramifications.

 

And like @Superman said, soon top 51 rule is gone. The rest of the figures HR was talking about are already figured in(unofficially) to Spotrac numbers, soon though 2 more player contracts will be added and that Cap Space number drops to around $5.7m, from the $7m mentioned before.

 

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

Remember when I told everyone the Colts cap would be tight this season? Here it is.

 

I think it's even tighter than they anticipated. At some point (this week, or next), the top 51 offseason rule goes away, and every player contract -- all 53 active, plus practice squad, plus IR, plus PUP, plus dead money -- counts against the cap. We have about $20m on IR/PUP, pending injury settlements (including Te'vi, who probably would have been released outright if not for his injury).

 

So, for example, Ehlinger, who was probably destined for PS this season at about $250k, is still on the cap at $450k. Plus, we had to bring back Hundley at nearly $250k. It creates a double dip. Or like Te'vi, even if he wasn't going to be released, now he's on the cap, plus his replacement is on the cap. Another double dip. These start to add up.

 

And right now, they have to get under the cap, while some of the roster management is on hold, pending settlements, short term IR resolutions, etc. Kelly's restructure gives them some much needed breathing room. And in the coming weeks, they'll probably get a little bit more relief as they resolve things with some injured players. At this time, we still don't have room to add another player contract. If a Nelson or Hines deal gets done right now, it has to be done in a way that their 2021 cap hit does not increase.

Yup. There were a few of us that were more cap realistic than others. We're thin right now even without the Q or Hines extension. I'm sure moves will be made, and it'll all work out, but money is simply tight. 

 

Hoping we have some major elevations in the cap the next couple years. We have a ton of FAs next year at major spots.

4 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

They are in great shape in the next two years though.  

Define great. 

You should take a look at 2022 free agents.

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Could they restructure Wentz contract any?

 

They converted his roster bonus when he was traded, moving $5m into 2022. There was a rule in the previous CBA that you could only restructure a player once per year, so if that rule is still in the new CBA (I should check, but not right now), then no more restructures for Wentz until next season.

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

You should take a look at 2022 free agents.

 

They're at $65m under the cap, assuming the cap goes to the ceiling of $208m. FAs include Glowinksi, Fisher, Hilton, Turay, Rhodes, Lewis, MAC, Pascal, Hines, Muhammad, Wilkins, and Mack. I won't go any further because they're probably not major factors right now. They also probably want to get Nelson done next offseason.

 

So no major FA spending spree next year, either.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, w87r said:

I agree on Q, no real reason it needs to be done this season.

 

Hines? IDK, I think extending him early could be a mistake. What if he gets hurt?

 

I am going to scour FA and potential trade targets that this might play into.

 

I have the day off with 4 day weekend, I got some time today.

We still are uncertain at the Z WR position.  And maybe Corner.  Need to get those settled.

 

Edit:  NVM.

[Four2itus]

41 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I’d say something is messed up. 24 million under vs -5 million over 

Hey, the government does that all the time. 

[TaylorTheStudMuffin]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. There were a few of us that were more cap realistic than others. We're thin right now even without the Q or Hines extension. I'm sure moves will be made, and it'll all work out, but money is simply tight. 

 

Hoping we have some major elevations in the cap the next couple years. We have a ton of FAs next year at major spots.

Define great. 

You should take a look at 2022 free agents.

Clearly they are going to have decide which ones are thd most important. On offense Hines and Pascal are important. The defense is what is scary because Turay and Lewis might not be so cheap. This is where Dayo comes in to replace Turay next season.  I don’t see how they can afford Fisher.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

They're at $65m under the cap, assuming the cap goes to the ceiling of $208m. FAs include Glowinksi, Fisher, Hilton, Turay, Rhodes, Lewis, MAC, Pascal, Hines, Muhammad, Wilkins, and Mack. I won't go any further because they're probably not major factors right now. They also probably want to get Nelson done next offseason.

 

So no major FA spending spree next year, either.

Yup.

 

You have to think Fisher will get a 2 or 3 extension if he comes back to form.

CB1 will be a big hole if Rhodes isn't back. 

Pascal's market value per ST is 8M (I think that's high though). 

Dayo could replace Lewis, but think they'll want Lewis back so long as he plays well replacing Autry. 

RG is a wildcard, but not sure anyone is better than Glow right now on the Roster. Maybe Pryor, Pinter, or Reed.

 

I like the chances of WR depth being OK without TY. But if not, another big hole.

TE with Doyle perhaps retiring, MAC a FA, and Granson (more slot bully than prototypical TE) shaky could be wide open.

Not really worried about RB, but 3 of 4 are FAs.

[Zoltan]

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

They're at $65m under the cap, assuming the cap goes to the ceiling of $208m. FAs include Glowinksi, Fisher, Hilton, Turay, Rhodes, Lewis, MAC, Pascal, Hines, Muhammad, Wilkins, and Mack. I won't go any further because they're probably not major factors right now. They also probably want to get Nelson done next offseason.

 

So no major FA spending spree next year, either.

 

Mack, Wilkins, Hilton, Rhodes will most likely be gone.

 

Depending on Banogu we will probably sign 1 or 2 of the three DEs (Turay, Lewis, Muhammad).

 

Questionable returns: Fisher, Glowinski, MAC, and Pascal

 

Hines seems like the only one I would say is guaranteed a contract just because they are already talking.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Clearly they are going to have decide which ones are thd most important. On offense Hines and Pascal are important. The defense is what is scary because Turay and Lewis might not be so cheap. This is where Dayo comes in to replace Turay next season.  I don’t see how they can afford Fisher.

IDK. Hines and Pascal are a lot less important to me than LT and RG. RBs are fungible these days, and Pascal might end up being the 4th or 5th WR.

 

Rhodes, or really the potential hole at CB1 is the most important to me on D. Lot's of shuffle at DE could happen.

[jskinnz]

44 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think the timing of this restructure signals something is definitely afoot.  No reason to do Q or Hines now.  My best guess is Ertz.  We already did the one trade with them that might have opened the door for conversations to start again.  We claimed that TE and released him right away.  Seems they are looking to upgrade there.  Ertz had a great camp too.  Might have been enough for them to try and get him for Wentz.  We could always restructure Buckner too no? 

 

You always thinks there is something afoot and there never is.  

 

See Superman's post for the reality of what the restructure means - and then look no further.

[Zoltan]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

TE with Doyle perhaps retiring, MAC a FA, and Granson (more slot bully than prototypical TE) shaky could be wide open.

 

 

I have actually been surprised with how we have handled TE this year, I thought we would be carrying 4 on the roster 

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Zoltan said:

 

I have actually been surprised with how we have handled TE this year, I thought we would be carrying 4 on the roster 

IMO, no need to carry 4 with our utilization. We went 2 TE less than 30% last year, and that counts Burton (who is more a big/bully slot than TE), and was the second TE most of the time.

 

Add in we have WRs that block really really well, and have huge WRs in general now.

 

In short, just no need.

[TaylorTheStudMuffin]

If Doyle decided to retire that would save some money. This will probably be the first off season they are going to have to let go of players they wanted to keep. They will just have to figure out which ones are the biggest priority.

[w87r]

48 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

They're at $65m under the cap, assuming the cap goes to the ceiling of $208m. FAs include Glowinksi, Fisher, Hilton, Turay, Rhodes, Lewis, MAC, Pascal, Hines, Muhammad, Wilkins, and Mack. I won't go any further because they're probably not major factors right now. They also probably want to get Nelson done next offseason.

 

So no major FA spending spree next year, either.

Its a long ways away, anything can happen but I think you are right.

 

Not sure how many of those guys come back, obviously this season has a lot to do with it.

 

Players above I could see walk:

Hilton

Rhodes

Muhammed(maybe broughy back for cheap if Turay and Lewis are gone)

Wilkins

Mack

 

Players TBD:

Turay(how does he play?)

Lewis(same as above?)

Pascal(how much does he want?)

MAC(how much $, did he develop more?)

Fisher(how does he come back from injury?)

 

 

Likely:

Glowinski - $8-$10m(what would you feel comfortable at?)

 

 

I would say Fisher would be at least $12-$15m, if he comes back healthy?

 

MAC - $4-$6m 

Pascal - $5-$6m 

 

Q extension will probably add $5-$6m more to 2022 cap. I imagine a $25-$30m SB or something along those lines?

 

Would leave us around $22-$23m in cap space if we signed those guys to top number

 

Turay/Lewis - that could get expensive if they play good this year. Imagine 1 is probably gone either way, maybe both? Paye, Dayo, Banogu

 

1 wild card for cap space next year:

Carson Wentz - if he doesn't play well he could be moved for late round pick and we would get a big cap boost. $28.3m.

 

Could even cut and save $13m.

 

 

So probably after signing our own next offseason, we will have $10-$15m left to spend. $2m for draft picks, $3m for PS, season spending cash. 

 

Yep, probably not many outside FA, but we will have been able to keep the most vital players to our roster locked up.

 

And if Wentz works out we should be in good shape, if not, we have an out to secure more cap space if needed, via trade or release of Wentz.

 

 

EDIT: after all that forgot to mention Hines..... Anyway at $3-4m I would bring him back, $5-$6m letting him test the market.

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I'm going with 1 and 2. 

 

3 doesn't make a lot sense to me as extra space for carry over just makes up for the $ they just pushed.

 

I'd add 4, extension for Hines to go with 1 and 2. Word is they've been talking.

 

While I want Q to be extended, we have a whole extra year with the 5th year option if needed.

 

Making Q wait is no way to treat a Hall of Fame caliber team leader.
Pretty sure it makes more sense to put a chunk of Q's $$$ on this years salary so now is the time to do the deal.

[AustexColt]

I think it is wise to build up your treasure chest at this time to provide insurance for unexpected needs. All future signing will need money and the less you have, the lesser choices you have.  Extension is an available option throughout the year. Nobody is going to turn away from being offered a good deal.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

Making Q wait is no way to treat a Hall of Fame caliber team leader.
Pretty sure it makes more sense to put a chunk of Q's $$$ on this years salary so now is the time to do the deal.

He's making 7.7M this year, and will make 13.7M next year. Waiting till this year is over isn't a big deal. He's not going to miss any meals. It's not bad treatment IMO, it's business, and there's a reason teams exercise 5th years. There's no chance in Hades IMO that something isn't done before the start of next season. And there's just not room right now to put a chunk here.

[w87r]

15 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

Making Q wait is no way to treat a Hall of Fame caliber team leader.
Pretty sure it makes more sense to put a chunk of Q's $$$ on this years salary so now is the time to do the deal.

This 

 

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

He's making 7.7M this year, and will make 13.7M next year. Waiting till this year is over isn't a big deal. He's not going to miss any meals. It's not bad treatment IMO, it's business, and there's a reason teams exercise 5th years. There's no chance in Hades IMO that something isn't done before the start of next season. And there's just not room right now to put a chunk here.

 

Nelson is making really good money this year(9th highest for guard) and next season(currently 6th) without an extension and he has been making really good money on his rookie deal being a top 6 pick. There is not any money to put towards an extension for him now, at least not to include $ this year, next year sure. 

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, w87r said:

This 

 

 

Nelson is making really good money this year(9th highest for guard) and next season(currently 6th) without an extension and he has been making really good money on his rookie deal being a top 6 pick. There is not any money to put towards an extension for him now, at least not to include $ this year, next year sure. 

Yep

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, w87r said:

This 

 

 

Nelson is making really good money this year(9th highest for guard) and next season(currently 6th) without an extension and he has been making really good money on his rookie deal being a top 6 pick. There is not any money to put towards an extension for him now, at least not to include $ this year, next year sure. 

 

And to be honest, it might be better for Q's contract to be done after the season. If the cap goes up big time like some expect, his agent has more leverage. And OG top pay will increase driving his further up. He has zero to worry about except a career ending injury. But even if that happened, he wouldn't be poor.

[Jackie Daytona]

1 hour ago, Wentzszn said:

This will probably be the first off season they are going to have to let go of players they wanted to keep. They will just have to figure out which ones are the biggest priority.

You think so?

[cbear]

2 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

You could say the what if he gets hurt about anyone they choose to extend.  I get that people have legit concerns over extending Hines but fear of injury shouldn’t be a major one because again that can happen to any player.

 

I would have concerns if he's injury prone, but I don't think that's the case with Hines? 

[cbear]

Can someone explain why at the initial signing wouldn't you put more money into a signing bonus instead of waiting till later? Is there some rule prohibiting that?

 

 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, Zoltan said:

 

I have actually been surprised with how we have handled TE this year, I thought we would be carrying 4 on the roster 

I was too.  Still could happen.  Ballard did say the roster is going to be fluid for awhile.  I know what he said about carrying 11DL on the active roster but it seems excessive to me.  I wouldn’t be surprised if one of them is traded.  We will see.