I cant believe the Browns held control of the draft and still spoiled it...

[bap1331]

It certainly helped the rest of the league and definitely changed the future of the league but....why not Bradley Chubb? And why not Rosen or Sam?

 

Baker Mayfield was certainly not even a top 5 prospect, hec not even Top 10.

[jskinnz]

4 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

It certainly helped the rest of the league and definitely changed the future of the league but....why not Bradley Chubb? And why not Rosen or Sam?

 

Baker Mayfield was certainly not even a top 5 prospect, hec not even Top 10.

 

As shocking as this is to type, apparently they disagreed with you.

 

 

[bap1331]

Just now, jskinnz said:

 

As shocking as this is to type, apparently they disagreed with you.

 

 

 

its common sense though. Chubb? How do you pass on Chubb?! As far as QB, id rather be more secure with Sam or Rosen not getting into trouble with the law.

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

 

its common sense though. Chubb? How do you pass on Chubb?! As far as QB, id rather be more secure with Sam or Rosen not getting into trouble with the law.

Because teams draft for need much more than they say.  They have Garrett for rush.  They needed a CB but couldn't wait until the 2nd to get a cover man, so they reach for Ward.  

 

We basically did the same thing.  Couldn't get the need at the proper value so we took the player we needed anyway instead of rummaging through what's left in the early second round.

[csmopar]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Because teams draft for need much more than they say.  They have Garrett for rush.  They needed a CB but couldn't wait until the 2nd to get a cover man, so they reach for Ward.  

 

We basically did the same thing.  Couldn't get the need at the proper value so we took the player we needed anyway instead of rummaging through what's left in the early second round.

Nelson wasn't a reach... Ballard went BPA, regardless of position.  It just happened to be that the player was also in the position of need...

[krunk]

20 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

It certainly helped the rest of the league and definitely changed the future of the league but....why not Bradley Chubb? And why not Rosen or Sam?

 

Baker Mayfield was certainly not even a top 5 prospect, hec not even Top 10.

Based on what?  His play certainly said he was worthy.  Harping on a college kid doing something silly in his past doesn't disqualify him.   I'm sure Dorsey has the best idea who the guy really is more than we do.   Being short doesn't disqualify you either.

[ColtsBlueFL]

23 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

It certainly helped the rest of the league and definitely changed the future of the league but....why not Bradley Chubb?

 

 

They had #1 pass rush pick from last year.  They really need a better secondary.

 

Quote

 

And why not Rosen or Sam? Baker Mayfield was certainly not even a top 5 prospect, hec not even Top 10.

 

Because you interviewed all the QB's, talked to all their high school and college coaches, interviewed all the QB's, watched all their coaches game tape, went to the combine and pro days, compared the skill sets of each player (they are all different) and know which one best fit the Scheme Hue Jackson and Todd Haley are installing. And after doing all of this exhausting work, you determine that a successful, smart, and tenured GM, John Dorsey, doesn't know what he is doing.

 

Tape your presser so we can add it to John Dorsey's below-

 

 

 

[throwing BBZ]

18 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

It certainly helped the rest of the league and definitely changed the future of the league but....why not Bradley Chubb? And why not Rosen or Sam?

 

Baker Mayfield was certainly not even a top 5 prospect, hec not even Top 10.

 

 How do you pass on Chubb. Ever heard of Miles Garrett?
Ever heard of Antonio Brown?
 Darnold is a turnover machine and his quiet demeanor pales to Mayfield having a history of ball protection and being fiery, inspirational leader.
 Rosen is fragile and lacks mobility. A bad combination.
  And it really is that simple.

[Reboot]

11 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

It certainly helped the rest of the league and definitely changed the future of the league but....why not Bradley Chubb? And why not Rosen or Sam?

 

Baker Mayfield was certainly not even a top 5 prospect, hec not even Top 10.

Mayfield was the top QB on a lot of lists.  Statistically he was the superior QB, especially in deeper analytics, where he separated himself.  ESPN, NFL.com, Pro Football Focus, Football Outsiders, they all had articles touting Mayfield as the best of the lot, and backed it up with sound analysis, based on results on the field.  I don't think any of the top four were so far superior to the others to really make that pick shocking.  They all are flawed. 

[BlueShoe]

Yeah....

 

History could say Cleveland bombed this draft.... 

 

They had the chance to take Darnold and Chubb (1, 4). 

 

John Dorsey had better hope his players outplay the players he "should have" taken. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

4 minutes ago, krunk said:

Based on what?  His play certainly said he was worthy.  Harping on a college kid doing something silly in his past doesn't disqualify him.   I'm sure Dorsey has the best idea who the guy really is more than we do.   Being short doesn't disqualify you either.

 

Exactly.  People forget.... what do kids, and we, do in college...  did some not always smart things, but... we grew up! Kids mature fast through that zone.  Not always without incident, though.  A very few never grow up, or at least so long that it may be too late. (Johnny Manziel).  Mayfield is not Manziel 2.0

[krunk]

3 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Exactly.  People forget.... what do kids, and we, do in college...  did some not always smart things, but... we grew up! Kids mature fast through that zone.  Not always without incident, though.  A very few never grow up, or at least so long that it may be too late. (Johnny Manziel).  Mayfield is not Manziel 2.0

Everybody could see the train wreck with Johnny coming in the door from day 1.  I never was of the opinion he was worthy of that pick.  The film clearly showed a guy who wasn't an accomplished passer.  Anybody and their momma could have seen his affinity for partying and lack of discipline.  It was well documented.  That is not Baker Mayfield, they are two different dudes.

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 How do you pass on Chubb. Ever heard of Miles Garrett?
Ever heard of Antonio Brown?
 Darnold is a turnover machine and his quiet demeanor pales to Mayfield having a history of ball protection and being fiery, inspirational leader.
 Rosen is fragile and lacks mobility. A bad combination.
  And it really is that simple.

 

Right! 

Darnold needs to learn to protect the football

Rosen is a smart guy, pro set ready, but a concern that he is concussion or two away from calling it quits

And Allen is not ready, will need to learn.  McCown is a perfect mentor for him, Tyrod Taylor would not be.

[Archer]

I think Mayfield was the right choice at #1.   Accuracy is what I would have been seeking, and he’s by far the most accurate of the top 4 guys.  But that Ward pick was terrible.  Trade that pick back and pick up Jaire or Minkah and a bounty of picks...

[DougDew]

29 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Nelson wasn't a reach... Ballard went BPA, regardless of position.  It just happened to be that the player was also in the position of need...

I don't think either Ward or Nelson was a reach, because a reach is just a fan/pundit expression of where the player went relative to the pundit predraft player rankings.  But Ward was a "reach" in that sense, so that's how I said it.

 

The Browns need a CB and the position of need they targeted would not have the talent level they desired at later picks.   That's usually how the draft works, and it sometimes results in a player being drafted way ahead of their pundit ranking because the team can't wait another 31 picks.  Teams never draft BPA, despite what they say.

 

Ballard said the same thing I just described.  He said he targeted 4 players and didn't want to trade down and risk missing one of them.  All of them were in positions of need.  Usually GMs say they drafted BPA.  Ballard didn't say he got the BPA.    He also didnt say he got the 6th best player, or wanted one of the top 6 best players.  He wanted one of the 4 he targeted and didn't want to drop too low to miss out on one of them.

 

Smith was probably one of those targets, and was ranked in the 10 range.  Not top 4.

 

 

[Superman]

I'm against declaring anything immediately after the draft. No one knows whether they bombed this draft.

 

But I am shocked they took Mayfield #1, and I definitely wasn't expecting Ward at #4. I wasn't in love with any of the QBs, and Mayfield has as strong a resume as anyone else (he's also a bit of a knucklehead, though). And Ward is a really good prospect, just size deficient for his position.

[OffensivelyPC]

I disagree. To me, the best two QBs were Mayfield and Rosen. Darnold isnt far off, but everyone else is a tier below IMO.

 

Denzel Ward was a bit perplexing, but not a travesty. Maybe a bit of a reach, but not by any more than a handful of spots.

 

[BlueShoe]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

I'm against declaring anything immediately after the draft. No one knows whether they bombed this draft.

 

But I am shocked they took Mayfield #1, and I definitely wasn't expecting Ward at #4. I wasn't in love with any of the QBs, and Mayfield has as strong a resume as anyone else (he's also a bit of a knucklehead, though). And Ward is a really good prospect, just size deficient for his position.

 

This absolutely has to play out. For all we know, history could call John Dorsey a genius. 

 

HOWEVER, for anyone to say that history could view the Browns 2018 draft as a complete failure.... well, that discussion is absolutely relevant. Even today the discussion is relevant. John Dorsey made it a relevant discussion by going against everything that made sense. 

 

It is possible, even likely the Browns completely screwed this up. 

 

I have been on the record that Sam Darnold will become an elite quarterback. I like Mayfield, but in my mind, it is not even close between the two. If I were a Browns fan then I would be concerned.

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

This absolutely has to play out. For all we know, history could call John Dorsey a genius. 

 

HOWEVER, for anyone to say that history could view the Browns 2018 draft as a complete failure.... well, that discussion is absolutely relevant. Even today the discussion is relevant. John Dorsey made it a relevant discussion by going against everything that made sense. 

 

It is possible, even likely the Browns completely screwed this up. 

 

I have been on the record that Sam Darnold will become an elite quarterback. I like Mayfield, but in my mind, it is not even close between the two. If I were a Browns fan then I would be concerned.

 

Agreed, except for Darnold. I'm not sold on him, but I'm not saying he won't be good. We'll see. I think he landed in a good spot, behind a veteran QB with a good OC.

 

But none of these QBs are bust proof, IMO, and this year's Browns draft class will be judged on whether or not they found a franchise QB at #1. 

 

13 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

I disagree. To me, the best two QBs were Mayfield and Rosen. Darnold isnt far off, but everyone else is a tier below IMO.

 

Denzel Ward was a bit perplexing, but not a travesty. Maybe a bit of a reach, but not by any more than a handful of spots.

 

 

I think some of us are looking at the Ward pick through a Colts lens. He's not a good fit for our defense, IMO, but he's still a really good corner prospect. He's shorter than preferred, but he has decent length arms and a great vertical, and he doesn't play small. Overall, having Ward in the top five isn't totally crazy, but taking him over Chubb is strange to me.

[BlueShoe]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed, except for Darnold. I'm not sold on him, but I'm not saying he won't be good. We'll see. I think he landed in a good spot, behind a veteran QB with a good OC.

 

But none of these QBs are bust proof, IMO, and this year's Browns draft class will be judged on whether or not they found a franchise QB at #1. 

 

Very few prospects are bust proof.

 

That said, anyone who would take Mayfield and Ward over Darnold and Chubb needs to have their head examined.

 

I think John Dorsey got into his own head and completely over-thought this.

 

Mayfield and Ward are both good players, but taking them over Darnold and Chubb is more than just questionable. It's a good reason to question someones sanity though. 

 

I think we are really starting to understand why the Chiefs fired this cat in June... In June!

 

I think there is a chance that cat is a nut job. 

 

Listen to this goober talk. I would not feel good if I were a Browns fan right now. They had a chance to fix it all. They could have turned it all around. Instead they rolled dice on players that might work out. 

 

 

[lollygagger8]

I personally think Baker Mayfield will turn out to be good. 

 

I don't think they should've passed on Chubb though. 

[Finball]

23 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

Very few prospects are bust proof.

 

That said, anyone who would take Mayfield and Ward over Darnold and Chubb needs to have their head examined.

 

I think John Dorsey got into his own head and completely over-thought this.

 

Mayfield and Ward are both good players, but taking them over Darnold and Chubb is more than just questionable. It's a good reason to question someones sanity though. 

 

I think we are really starting to understand why the Chiefs fired this cat in June... In June!

 

I think there is a chance that cat is a nut job. 

 

His drafting with the Chiefs though, was up there with the best of them.

[BlueShoe]

3 minutes ago, Finball said:

 

His drafting with the Chiefs though, was up there with the best of them.

 

it wasn't just Dorsey drafting players there. He had people around him making good decisions.... Chris Ballard was one of those guys. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

The Browns had everything at their fingertips, they blew it IMO. I would've took Darnold and Chubb in their shoes. Imagine Chubb paired with Garrett and Darnold will be better than Mayfield.

[Finball]

27 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

it wasn't just Dorsey drafting players there. He had people around him making good decisions.... Chris Ballard was one of those guys. 

 

Dorsey had the most say (save for maybe Reid) and Dorsey brought many of those guys there, just like he has done now in CLE, poaching from GB and bringing in Scot McCloughan, one of the best talent evaluators out there (who was a big Mayfield at least before he was hired by the Browns earlier this year).

 

Chubb over Ward was interesting but corner was far bigger need and guys like Ward are rarely available later in the draft. Ogbah is a stud too.

[BlueShoe]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The Browns had everything at their fingertips, they blew it IMO. I would've took Darnold and Chubb in their shoes. Imagine Chubb paired with Garrett and Darnold will be better than Mayfield.

 

History will tell us.....

 

But I agree. This appears to be a total screw up by John Dorsey.

 

He could save some face if Mayfield and Ward become good NFL players.... I guess we will have to wait and see. 

[OffensivelyPC]

19 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed, except for Darnold. I'm not sold on him, but I'm not saying he won't be good. We'll see. I think 

I think some of us are looking at the Ward pick through a Colts lens. He's not a good fit for our defense, IMO, but he's still a really good corner prospect. He's shorter than preferred, but he has decent length arms and a great vertical, and he doesn't play small. Overall, having Ward in the top five isn't totally crazy, but taking him over Chubb is strange to me.

Not only that, but I think many of us thought that if Barkley was there they would go with Barkley. Almost to the point that some of us thought that there was no way they could pick somebody else, and that is of course never true. That being said, Denzel Ward was still a great pick, just not the obvious pick.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, BlueShoe said:

 

History will tell us.....

 

But I agree. This appears to be a total screw up by John Dorsey.

 

He could save some face if Mayfield and Ward become good NFL players.... I guess we will have to wait and see. 

He better pray Mayfield pans out  

[BlueShoe]

1 minute ago, Finball said:

 

Dorsey had the most say (save for maybe Reid) and Dorsey brought many of those guys there, just like he has done now in CLE, poaching from GB and bringing in Scot McCloughan, one of the best talent evaluators out there (who was a big Mayfield at least before he was hired by the Browns earlier this year).

 

Chubb over Ward was interesting but corner was far bigger need and guys like Ward are rarely available later in the draft. Ogbah is a stud too.

 

We can see what Dorsey does without his Chiefs clan. The first 4 picks of 2018.

 

They fired him.... Ask yourself why. I don't think it is hard to connect the dots.

 

Dorsey rolled the dice when he did not have to. That is who he is. 

[DougDew]

10 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

History will tell us.....

 

But I agree. This appears to be a total screw up by John Dorsey.

 

He could save some face if Mayfield and Ward become good NFL players.... I guess we will have to wait and see. 

Its not like those players don't have attributes that are better than their peers.

 

Mayfield is supposedly the most accurate passer of the group.

 

Ward is the best man coverage guy.

 

If those are the skills that provide the most value to the team, and they already have one of the best edge rushers, then its not a screw up.

 

Besides, Chubb isn't perfect.  He's described as more of a "power" DE and not the sudden and bendy type.  Maybe his attributes are not what Dorsey thinks is most important.

[BlueShoe]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Its not like those players don't have attributes that are better than their peers.

 

Mayfield is supposedly the most accurate passer of the group.

 

Ward is the best man coverage guy.

 

If those are the skills that are most lacking on the tema, and they already have one of the best edge rushers, then its not a screw up.

 

Besides, Chubb isn't perfect.  He's described as more of a "power" DE and not the sudden and bendy type.  Maybe his attributes are not what Dorsey is looking for or thinks is important.

 

We are not going to solve this riddle today.

 

But be ready, because if/when the verdict comes back that John Dorsey is a nut job then it was already explained to you.

 

Anything is possible. 

[Finball]

23 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

We can see what Dorsey does without his Chiefs clan. The first 4 picks of 2018.

 

They fired him.... Ask yourself why. I don't think it is hard to connect the dots.

 

Dorsey rolled the dice when he did not have to. That is who he is. 

 

That's if it's already determined who those first picks end up being. His staff in CLE is arguably at least as good and we don't know how much of KC drafts were on Dorsey/someone else.

 

My understanding is that his firing was related to his cap management, management style (more of a talent evaluator/scout than a general manager) along with some personnel moves (extending own picks with generous contracts, hard-ball stance with Houston and Berry, cutting Maclin without informing the staff etc).

 

Were those picks made because Dorsey is a guy who rolls the dice when he doesn't have to or because that's who their staff had as the best players in the draft after extensive research?

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

We are not going to solve this riddle today.

 

But be ready, because if/when the verdict comes back that John Dorsey is a nut job then it was already explained to you.

 

Anything is possible. 

I'm just casually browsing the thread.  Sorry, I can't match your level of drama or energy for a person I don't care about...who was once in KC now Cleveland.

[BlueShoe]

8 minutes ago, Finball said:

 

That's if it's already determined who those first picks end up being. His staff in CLE is arguably at least as good and we don't know how much of KC drafts were on Dorsey/someone else.

 

My understanding is that his firing was related to his cap management, management style (more of a talent evaluator/scout than a general manager) along with some personnel moves (extending own picks with generous contracts, hard-ball stance with Houston and Berry, cutting Maclin without informing the staff etc).

 

Were those picks made because Dorsey is a guy who rolls the dice when he doesn't have to or because that's who their staff had as the best players in the draft after extensive research?

 

The Browns over-thought this and rolled the dice. 

 

Mayfield and Ward could become good players, but I doubt many other NFL general managers (if they needed a quarterback) would have made those selections. I would be willing to bet my paycheck that nearly all of the NFL teams would have picked Darnold and either Chubb (or traded the fourth overall pick back). 

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its not like those players don't have attributes that are better than their peers.

 

Mayfield is supposedly the most accurate passer of the group.

 

Ward is the best man coverage guy.

 

If those are the skills that provide the most value to the team, and they already have one of the best edge rushers, then its not a screw up.

 

Besides, Chubb isn't perfect.  He's described as more of a "power" DE and not the sudden and bendy type.  Maybe his attributes are not what Dorsey thinks is most important.

I am not a huge Chubb fan but I would've chose him over Ward. Chubb if paired up with another solid Pass Rusher could have a Great Rookie Season. He would've been playing with Garrett. In Denver he will be Good because they have Von Miller. My Draft board for us was Barkley 1, Nelson 2, Chubb 3, Edmunds 4, Smith 5. So I am happy we got Nelson. I knew Barkley would be gone.

[BlueShoe]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm just casually browsing the thread.  Sorry, I can't match your level of drama or energy for a person I don't care about...who was once in KC now Cleveland.

 

I am not going to turn this into a pissing match. 

 

Goodbye. 

[Finball]

23 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

The Browns over-thought this and rolled the dice. 

 

Mayfield and Ward could become good players, but I doubt many other NFL teams would have made those selections. I would be willing to bet my paycheck that nearly all of the NFL teams would have picked Darnold and either Chubb (or traded the fourth overall pick back). 

 

Only the decision makers of the Browns draft board can know that.

 

I really don't think it matters what other teams would've done.

[DougDew]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not a huge Chubb fan but I would've chose him over Ward. Chubb if paired up with another solid Pass Rusher could have a Great Rookie Season. He would've been playing with Garrett. In Denver he will be Good because they have Von Miller. My Draft board for us was Barkley 1, Nelson 2, Chubb 3, Edmunds 4, Smith 5. So I am happy we got Nelson. I knew Barkley would be gone.

I don't follow Cleveland to know what their CB situation is, or how much Dorsey wants to emphasize or upgrade man coverage.  I mean picking a guy in the top 10 at 4 or a top #3 pick QB at 1 is not exactly out of line.

 

Trading up for Lamar Jackson in the first, now there's a nutty pick.  

[BlueShoe]

1 minute ago, Finball said:

 

Only the decision makers of the Browns draft board can know that.

 

I really don't think it matters what other teams would've done.

 

No.

 

We know what the Browns decision makers were thinking. They showed us by selecting Mayfield and Ward.

 

Both choices were very questionable to say the least. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Finball said:

 

Only the decision makers of the Browns draft board can know that.

 

I really don't think it matters what other teams would've done.

You would think GM's know more than us average fans so maybe Dorsey knows something we don't. I don't see it though. IMO Darnold will be better than Mayfield and Chubb will be better than Ward.