Not a Pagano fan, BUT

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, azcolt said:

Anyone who follows the NFL knows there are few easy wins. Every team has talent. So why don’t we celebrate the win yesterday and stop pointing out all of the warts at least until our next loss?

 

We’re only a game behind with a promising young qb who has only a half dozen starts and a month of Colts practice under his belt. Getting him was a steal and stealing from the Pats doesn’t happen often. Do I think getting Luck back soon will result in a playoff spot? No, but we still have a chance after five games and win or lose, it’s fun to watch a young safety, qb and rb show a lot of potential star qualities. I think we have found a good GM. Hopefully Irsay will let him pick a coach for 2018.

my problem with Pagano is that he truly doesn't seem to be able to make adjustments in game as well as playing the wrong people in the wrong spots.  Come on, Scott Tolzien over Stephen Morris and later Jacoby Brissett?  Even a blind man could see Tolzien belongs on a middle school team, not the NFL. Then he's not playing guys who are better...George for example.  Keeps feeding Gore when Mack was on fire.....  the last 4 games, they've either blown 2-3 score leads or allowed a huge number of points in the 4th quarter.  Thats on coaching.

[Dark Superman]

10 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Irsay has already said Pagano's job would not be determined by wins and loses.

Do I think Pagano will be fired? I have no clue. I don't have a crystal ball but neither does anyone in here.

Like I believe anything that comes out of Jim Irsay's mouth.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

my problem with Pagano is that he truly doesn't seem to be able to make adjustments in game as well as playing the wrong people in the wrong spots.  Come on, Scott Tolzien over Stephen Morris and later Jacoby Brissett?  Even a blind man could see Tolzien belongs on a middle school team, not the NFL. Then he's not playing guys who are better...George for example.  Keeps feeding Gore when Mack was on fire.....  the last 4 games, they've either blown 2-3 score leads or allowed a huge number of points in the 4th quarter.  Thats on coaching.

Brissitt wasn't ready to start yet over Tolzien and Mack was and still is on a snap count due to injury.

[Buddy Lee]

2 minutes ago, Blue Shoe Savior 12 said:

I understand that, but I would be SHOCKED if Pagano is here in 2018.

I agree with you. Short of making the playoffs (which isn't going to happen this year because it isn't that we are only one game behind it's because of the number of divisional teams ahead of us and our weakest schedule is behind us), I believe Irsay will fire Chuck. A history of poor game planning, slow starts to every season (0-2 four seasons in a row) and embarrassing in-game coaching (fake punt which will be a blooper hall of famer for decades, a hurry up instead of a challenge on a TD run this year, the backward pass on ST yesterday, etc. etc. etc.) will seal Chuck's fate with Irsay IMO.

[crazycolt1]

Just now, Blue Shoe Savior 12 said:

Like I believe anything that comes out of Jim Irsay's mouth.

That's your choice.

[PrincetonTiger]

Reminder:

 A lot of line up decisions are made at practice 

[PrincetonTiger]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Brissitt wasn't ready to start yet over Tolzien and Mack was and still is on a snap count due to injury.

So true

[Peterk2011]

22 minutes ago, Blue Shoe Savior 12 said:

I understand that, but I would be SHOCKED if Pagano is here in 2018.

 

Guess what, a LOT of people were shocked in 2015 seeing Pagano extending his contract. And one year later, plenty of people were at least surprised that after firing Grigson and hiring a new GM, Pagano still stayed. This second case includes me.

 

I have not clue what will happen in 2018, but I always prefer to be prepared rather than surprised. So my advice is ... prepare to be shocked.

[LockeDown]

Whatever coach(es) we get, still won't be Belichek's equal.  We have to win by having a great defense and not beating ourselves on offense.  Games against the Pats come down to last second decisions and we need to be good decision makers.   If new coaching is what Ballard thinks is necessary, then I will stand by him. 

[Smitto]

1 hour ago, jameszeigler834 said:

The only way we go 8-8 again is if Lucks out there but I don't know if it happens this year regardless Defense sucks and the o-line isn't much better.

The defense does not suck, just bad playcalling.

[PrincetonTiger]

4 minutes ago, Smitto said:

The defense does not suck, just bad playcalling.

Questionable playcalling yes but also bad communication between the players have caused problems to

[csmopar]

33 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

So true

 

36 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Brissitt wasn't ready to start yet over Tolzien and Mack was and still is on a snap count due to injury.

perhaps... but what is your rebuttal to that of Tolzien over Morris?  Because Morris wasn't as sharp at the BEGINNING of camp?! some 4+ weeks before the start of the season.....

[csmopar]

7 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Questionable playcalling yes but also bad communication between the players have caused problems to

which again points back to one thing.....

 

COACHING

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, csmopar said:

 

perhaps... but what is your rebuttal to that of Tolzien over Morris?  Because Morris wasn't as sharp at the BEGINNING of camp?! some 4+ weeks before the start of the season.....

Not at practice so who knows but when you can't pass a UDFA there is some kind of problem

[PrincetonTiger]

5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

which again points back to one thing.....

 

COACHING

Let me put on my coach hat and move on

[Pacergeek]

Pagano has shown in multiple games, that he is terrible at clock management. Yesterday, Chuck botched this again. If he had used time outs effectively, we would have had a minute left in regulation to try and win the game. Instead, Chuck sits on a timeout, and we take our chances in overtime. We overcame lousy clock management yesterday, but have also lost games in the past. This is a big reason to fire Pagano. No reason a casual fan should be better at clock management than an NFL head coach

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, Pacergeek said:

Pagano has shown in multiple games, that he is terrible at clock management. Yesterday, Chuck botched this again. If he had used time outs effectively, we would have had a minute left in regulation to try and win the game. Instead, Chuck sits on a timeout, and we take our chances in overtime. We overcame lousy clock management yesterday, but have also lost games in the past. This is a big reason to fire Pagano. No reason a casual fan should be better at clock management than an NFL head coach

Not saying this is the situation but often these kind of things come from the person in the coaches ear in the booth

[csmopar]

2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Not at practice so who knows but when you can't pass a UDFA there is some kind of problem

Yeah.... with Pagano not being willing to give a guy a chance to take someone else's starting spot.  We've seen it happen time and time again since 2012.....

 

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Let me put on my coach hat

 

I was all for giving Pagano a shot without the evil Grigson micromanaging him.  I don't care that we lost some games, was fully expecting that with Luck out.  What does concern me and should concern you, is that Pagano cannot, has not, and will not ever get his players or teams to play a full 60 minutes.  He's making the same dumb, back yard bullcrap coaching decisions that he has for years.  His D's collapse every time they have a big lead, mostly cause he goes/allows his DC to go conservative, same with his Offense.  Chud's Offense is so predictable, I could stop the Colts solo.   

[csmopar]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

Not saying this is the situation but often these kind of things come from the person in the coaches ear in the booth

But yet....Pagano still has ultimate control. 

[Pacergeek]

Another reason to fire Pagano is that he has to feel for what's going on in the game. Marlon Mack was hot, and Pagano benches him. Another fireable offense

[Smitto]

19 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Questionable playcalling yes but also bad communication between the players have caused problems to

I partly blame that on coaching... example why on earth do the colts need 3 safeties in rotation? 

[dodsworth]

What you get with a Pagano coached team is a mentally soft, undisciplined and unprepared to play 4 full quarters of football, this has not changed and will 

NEVER change under Pagano. 

Couple this with an imploded roster change and new players trying to figure

out a new scheme and we have an 8 and 8 team at best.

 

This team is not playoff caliber and I'm just fine with getting a better seat 

in the draft and allowing Ballard to work his magic to add pieces on the roster

with a competent coach next year.

 

Teams take on the personality of their leader and ours is mentally 

soft, undisciplined and unprepared.

[SteelCityColt]

2 hours ago, DaveA1102 said:

 

I understand your perspective, and agree the Board is definitely more negative than positive most of the time, but, even in games we win, the coaching can be lamented. 

 

The wins don't really feel like victories, its like crawling over the finish line of a 5k run, you are glad you made it but it shouldn't have been that hard!

 

Depends how fast you got to the line 

[richard pallo]

The internet today is filled with sportscasters, analysts, fans questioning NFL coaches all around the league on their time management, play calling,  and game management during yesterdays games.  Coaches with bigger reputations than Pagano.  It's a long season so I will enjoy the win and move on to next week.  We are only a game behind and getting healthier each week with the big guy starting to practice. Lots to look forward too.  It's only week 5.  As Andrew said, there is nothing to freak out about. 

[Peterk2011]

54 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I was all for giving Pagano a shot without the evil Grigson micromanaging him.  I don't care that we lost some games, was fully expecting that with Luck out.  What does concern me and should concern you, is that Pagano cannot, has not, and will not ever get his players or teams to play a full 60 minutes.  He's making the same dumb, back yard bullcrap coaching decisions that he has for years.  His D's collapse every time they have a big lead, mostly cause he goes/allows his DC to go conservative, same with his Offense.  Chud's Offense is so predictable, I could stop the Colts solo.   

 

Exactly when they went conservative yesterday? Because i've seen plenty of mistakes from players, arguably some wrong personnel/assignments, but zero prevent/conservativity. The niners started their first comeback TD drive with a few successful longer rushes, due to overpursuing and bad angles from our defense. These few were pretty much the only blown rushing plays in the game, so i don't blame our dline there, it happens. Then came that 60 yarder. I don't know if our safeties were too close or they reacted too slowly, but it wasn't prevent neither, that is sure. Then in the next drive, they kept looking for their TE, he catched like 4 or 5 passes in a row. Each time the Colts tried to cover him with someone else, first Bostic, then J. Jeorge, Davis, Hooker, Bostic again, finally Hooker. Neither of them could make the play - defend the pass -, they only made the tackle. I didn't see any conservativity, playing safe, etc. there neither. I just saw mistakes or slow reactions.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Depends how fast you got to the line 

Mine would be very slow 

[csmopar]

18 minutes ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

Exactly when they went conservative yesterday? Because i've seen plenty of mistakes from players, arguably some wrong personnel/assignments, but zero prevent/conservativity. The niners started their first comeback TD drive with a few successful longer rushes, due to overpursuing and bad angles from our defense. These few were pretty much the only blown rushing plays in the game, so i don't blame our dline there, it happens. Then came that 60 yarder. I don't know if our safeties were too close or they reacted too slowly, but it wasn't prevent neither, that is sure. Then in the next drive, they kept looking for their TE, he catched like 4 or 5 passes in a row. Each time the Colts tried to cover him with someone else, first Bostic, then J. Jeorge, Davis, Hooker, Bostic again, finally Hooker. Neither of them could make the play - defend the pass -, they only made the tackle. I didn't see any conservativity, playing safe, etc. there neither. I just saw mistakes or slow reactions.

Well Bob Lamey and Jim Sorgi both disagree with you as even they said in the post game show that the Colts went too conservative with a prevent defense.....  and even if they did as you said, players making mistakes partially falls on coaching as well....... 

[ColtsBlueFL]

24 minutes ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

Exactly when they went conservative yesterday? Because i've seen plenty of mistakes from players, arguably some wrong personnel/assignments, but zero prevent/conservativity. The niners started their first comeback TD drive with a few successful longer rushes, due to overpursuing and bad angles from our defense. These few were pretty much the only blown rushing plays in the game, so i don't blame our dline there, it happens. Then came that 60 yarder. I don't know if our safeties were too close or they reacted too slowly, but it wasn't prevent neither, that is sure. Then in the next drive, they kept looking for their TE, he catched like 4 or 5 passes in a row. Each time the Colts tried to cover him with someone else, first Bostic, then J. Jeorge, Davis, Hooker, Bostic again, finally Hooker. Neither of them could make the play - defend the pass -, they only made the tackle. I didn't see any conservativity, playing safe, etc. there neither. I just saw mistakes or slow reactions.

 

Sometimes, you have to make a play. since we don’t have a Freeney and Mathis to strip sack their QB on their last minute drives, you need others to step in crunch time and make a play. Nobody on D can do that, yet, with consistency. Colts have surrendered plays of 20 or more yards 30+ times this season. That is 6 times a game! And I think we have given up 5 plays of 40 yards or more. If we are playing prevent ( the big play ), we are the worst team to ever try doing so. We are plain getting beat on mismatches, for sure, though.

[a06cc]

Pagano has down a 50/50 job so far this season. He is still starting out a season 0-2. I think he is using his timeouts and challenges pretty well this season. Now if they can become better once Luck returns than he’ll be back next season. The only thing saving him is Luck not playing. We have to see how he does with a healthy QB at the start of the season. The defense has improved and special teams has also been great. Just my personal opinion. 

[PrincetonTiger]

8 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Well Bob Lamey and Jim Sorgi both disagree with you as even they said in the post game show that the Colts went too conservative with a prevent defense.....  and even if they did as you said, players making mistakes partially falls on coaching as well....... 

That not the way coaching works

[SteelCityColt]

56 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

That not the way coaching works

 

No but is this not always the coaches lot on the whole? If players play badly it’s on the coach/manager... if they do well it’s bcause of their talent. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

No but is this not always the coaches lot on the whole? If players play badly it’s on the coach/manager... if they do well it’s bcause of their talent. 

Yes spent enough nights on the sideline to know that. one reason I stopped going to ballgames

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, PrincetonTiger said:

That not the way coaching works

Yes and No.  If the players are consistently out of position, its on the coaches to make those corrections.  If the player still struggles with that, you try not to put them in that position.  You play to the players strengths and mask their weaknesses as best as possible.  Not gonna be 100% fool proof but when I see players making the same mistakes game in and game out, year in and year out with different players at those positions, that falls on coaching.

10 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

No but is this not always the coaches lot on the whole? If players play badly it’s on the coach/manager... if they do well it’s bcause of their talent. 

I say fault/credit lies with both.

 

8 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Yes spent enough nights on the sideline to know that. one reason I stopped going to ballgames

 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, a06cc said:

Pagano has down a 50/50 job so far this season. He is still starting out a season 0-2. I think he is using his timeouts and challenges pretty well this season. Now if they can become better once Luck returns than he’ll be back next season. The only thing saving him is Luck not playing. We have to see how he does with a healthy QB at the start of the season. The defense has improved and special teams has also been great. Just my personal opinion. 

I think if we had a healthy Luck to start the season we would be in first place in our division and there would be no conversation on Pagano.  

[Peterk2011]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

Well Bob Lamey and Jim Sorgi both disagree with you as even they said in the post game show that the Colts went too conservative with a prevent defense.....  and even if they did as you said, players making mistakes partially falls on coaching as well....... 

 

Look, all my respect to Lamey and Sorgi, but I've heard hall of famers talking nonsense sitting in a booth. That's not a filmroom, where their attention is fully on the film. So until I am told where I was wrong, I keep believing my eyes. Prevent defense has some characteristics. Defenders play deeper, they keep their opponents in front of them, playing man they never leave their responsibilities to defend the rush until it gets over the los, etc. I didn't see any sign of that. I might still very well be wrong, that's why I asked.

[shasta519]

My take...Pagano's inability to manage the clock and make adjustments has been apparent for a long time now...yet he survived getting fired the past two offseasons (and even got an extension). So I think there is a good chance that Irsay isn't evaluating Pagano the same way we do. 

 

A big issue for Irsay seems to be the GM and HC having a symbiotic relationship. The dysfunction the past couple of seasons might be the reason that he actually moved on from Grigs...not just the disappointing 8-8 seasons. 

 

And it has been reported that Ballard worked with all of the coaches to learn the types of players they were looking for. So if the defense shows improvement and the young guys (on both sides of the ball) show development...it might be seen as a success. And at that point, who knows what will happen. If Irsay thinks he finally has both his GM and HC on the same page, he might be inclined to keep that HC (since he obviously doesn't want to fire him).

[azcolt]

4 hours ago, PrincetonTiger said:

You weren't around in the early days of the franchise were you because until the late 90s the Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts were the Cleveland Browns

That’s funny. I guess you are a little younger than I am because I was around in the “real early days” of the Colts. Outside of Green Bay and Lombardi, the Colts were NFL’s royalty soon after their arrival in Baltimore. The Unitas Colts were every bit as consistently excellent in their era as the Manning teams were in theirs. The dark days happened in between after Bob Irsay did the franchise swap with Carroll Rosenbloom. Irsay for Rosenbloom was surely the worst Colts trade ever.

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, azcolt said:

That’s funny. I guess you are a little younger than I am because I was around in the “real early days” of the Colts. Outside of Green Bay and Lombardi, the Colts were NFL’s royalty soon after their arrival in Baltimore. The Unitas Colts were every bit as consistently excellent in their era as the Manning teams were in theirs. The dark days happened in between after Bob Irsay did the franchise swap with Carroll Rosenbloom. Irsay for Rosenbloom was surely the worst Colts trade ever.

Was referring to the end of the run in Baltimore and the birth of the Indianapolis Colts, letting Shula go was another biggie

[CAColtsFan4]

5 hours ago, Smonroe said:

Here’s the rub -  I think every true Colts fan wants to win every game.  I also think a majority of Colts fans want a different coach.  Those two things won’t happen together.  Even going 8-8 while showing improvement will keep this coaching staff.

 

Personally, I think we have some really good coaches.  Lal, Shotts, Williams, and a few others have done well.

 

I don’t want to see a new staff that brings in a new playbook and want their own guys.  I think we have a decent nucleus of players, only a few key positions (ILB, G) away. 

 

I just want want to see better play calling on O and D.  And I’m well aware that may not happen with the current staff.  Perplexing.  

 

4 hours ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Feel the same way here in TigerTown 

 

5 hours ago, PrincetonTiger said:

No the team needs to focus on Tenn. not make plans for the next draft or coach

Its not like the coaching staff is focusing on the draft nor the next coach. Sure the front office is sending their regional scouts during the season, but with the situation Chuck is in right now, I doubt Ballard has Chuck focusing on next years draft class.

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

Look, all my respect to Lamey and Sorgi, but I've heard hall of famers talking nonsense sitting in a booth. That's not a filmroom, where their attention is fully on the film. So until I am told where I was wrong, I keep believing my eyes. Prevent defense has some characteristics. Defenders play deeper, they keep their opponents in front of them, playing man they never leave their responsibilities to defend the rush until it gets over the los, etc. I didn't see any sign of that. I might still very well be wrong, that's why I asked.

Honesty, I'm simply relying on those two. I didn't see the game, I was listening to it via radio only.