What's more embarrassing; the team's play or fan's comments?

[JPFolks]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not embarrassed by the team's play. It's not good, and I find it very frustrating and annoying, but it doesn't reflect on me as a person or even a fan. Your team can't be good every year. Oh well.

 

I'm also not embarrassed by the whining, complaining, somewhat entitled, negative and often ignorant fans. I find that element to be frustrating and annoying as well, but not embarrassing. Again, it doesn't reflect on me personally.

Very well said.  But I think it didn't answer the question asked.  I make the case that free speech is always going to result in embarrassing commentary, and if you're involved in a group where that happens, it CAN be embarrassing to be associated with things said by the group, but it is always going to be there.  

 

On the other hand, supporting a team as a fan (i.e. fanatic) can be embarrassing because you choose to invest support from purchasing items or tickets to investing time talking about the team and when they play horribly, it can be embarrassing that with our one life to live and our limited resources of time and money, we spend it involved as a fan of that team.  

 

Rational people could find it embarrassing to put that sort of investment into something so poorly done.  I think the only answer to the question asked is the team in this case, is more embarrassing than the free speech of its fans.  

[FanFromtheWasteland]

 

Heaven forbid anyone critisize the Colts no matter how bad they are.

 

Like I said before...

 

Fairy dust and daisies. Now add Kumbaya.

 

Keep buring your heads in the sand. Keep ignoring reality.

Keep the p o.s GM

Keep the incompetent coach

Keep telling yourself all is well

Happy happy thoughts and Be Well

[Nadine]

If you were embarrassed by either fans or play, which synonym would describe your embarrassment most

 

synonyms:

mortified, red-faced, blushing, abashed, shamed, ashamed, shamefaced, humiliated,chagrined, awkward, self-conscious, uncomfortable, sheepish; 

discomfited, disconcerted,upset, discomposed, flustered, agitated, distressed; 

shy, bashful, tongue-tied;

informal with egg on one's face, wishing the earth would swallow one up

 

I don't think any of them apply except maybe upset.  

 

synonyms:distressed, troubled, perturbed, dismayed, disturbed, unsettled, disconcerted, worried,bothered, anxious, agitated, flustered, ruffled, unnerved, shaken, unstrung; 

hurt,saddened, grieved; 

informal cut up, choked

"the loss made Jane upset"

 

Still agree with superman, none of this is embarrassing. It is upsetting and aggravating though

[Nadine]

2 minutes ago, FanFromtheWasteland said:

 

Heaven forbid anyone critisize the Colts no matter how bad they are.

 

Like I said before...

 

Fairy dust and daisies. Now add Kumbaya.

 

Keep buring your heads in the sand. Keep ignoring reality.

Keep the p o.s GM

Keep the incompetent coach

Keep telling yourself all is well

Happy happy thoughts and Be Well

Where do you get that in this thread?

[Superman]

35 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

With the utmost respect, how?  The coaches are bad, the GM is bad, the owner brought them back for a 2nd shot, the players are making terrible mistakes.  Castonzo has been playing really poorly this year from what I've seen and TJ Green has a personal foul penalty in 3 consecutive games.  The one where he tried hitting Kelce well after the play was over yesterday was completely boneheaded.  His coverage has been awful, just like it was in college.

 

It's well established that you hate everyone running the Colts right now. 

 

Where I think it's over the line is when uninformed fans start calling career football people inept, saying they're over their head and have no clue what they're doing, etc., especially when you're talking about a team that's been reasonably successful over the last five years. 

 

The Colts staff has made a bunch of mistakes, and I'm not confident in them, but I also don't think that they deserve most of the criticism they get around here. I think it's laughable that the majority of fans here can bang on Pagano for playing it safe at the end of the first half against the Titans, then talk about how many mistakes the offense made in the Chiefs game, including the second quarter pick. I think it's crazy that people -- including you -- are calling for the new OL coach to be fired because the OL isn't great after 8 games.

 

It's outrageous, I really do mean that. The zealotry and increasingly aggressive demeaning of everything related to the Colts is mind boggling. This organization has been well run for a long time now, and even the owner is receiving this venom now, primarily because he didn't fire the couple of guys that you all hate. 

 

I'm kind of at a loss for words. 

[GoColts8818]

While I am not really embarrased by either because neither represent me and my repuntation.  If I had to pick I would just simply say at times yes.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

13 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Where do you get that in this thread?

By the last paragraph of the OP

[braveheartcolt]

What is crazy was people blaming the travel to London for out inept performance v the Jags. Did they get jet lag on the coach trip from the hotel to the LOS this Sunday? Aptly named stadium  now, eh!

[21isSuperman]

Just now, Superman said:

 

It's well established that you hate everyone running the Colts right now. 

 

Where I think it's over the line is when uninformed fans start calling career football people inept, saying they're over their head and have no clue what they're doing, etc., especially when you're talking about a team that's been reasonably successful over the last five years. 

 

The Colts staff has made a bunch of mistakes, and I'm not confident in them, but I also don't think that they deserve most of the criticism they get around here. I think it's laughable that the majority of fans here can bang on Pagano for playing it safe at the end of the first half against the Titans, then talk about how many mistakes the offense made in the Chiefs game, including the second quarter pick. I think it's crazy that people -- including you -- are calling for the new OL coach to be fired because the OL isn't great after 8 games.

 

It's outrageous, I really do mean that. The zealotry and increasingly aggressive demeaning of everything related to the Colts is mind boggling. This organization has been well run for a long time now, and even the owner is receiving this venom now, primarily because he didn't fire the couple of guys that you all hate. 

 

I'm kind of at a loss for words. 

I don't hate them.  I have nothing personal against them.  I just think they're awful at their jobs and have contributed to the current state of the team.  Matt Millen is a career football person.  Are we not allowed to call him an inept GM?  Rob Ryan's defenses have been pretty bad for several years now, but he still has a job.  Jeff Fisher is a perennial 7-9 coach.  But since he's been coaching for so many years, it's unjust to criticize him?  Just because someone is a career football person, doesn't mean they're good at what they're doing. 

 

Regarding the OL, I think they're being coached poorly.  Their technique looks bad to me.  They posture themselves in such a way that they're easy to push back.  They bend at the waist, they use poor technique, and I think that's a coaching issue.  If you disagree, that's fine.  But my eyes tell me their technique is bad.  I don't expect us to have Dallas' OL in front of Luck at this point in the season, but the OL is 1st in the league in terms of sacks given up with 31 (2nd place is at 25), and 2nd in the league with 61 QB hits.  For a guy who's specialty is supposed to be OL, it doesn't really make sense.

 

Those who are making bad decisions are being criticized.  Irsay made a bad decision in retaining/extending Grigson and Pagano.  Grigson has made many bad decisions in how he's built the roster.  Pagano has made many bad coaching decisions, including continuing to start guys like Jon Harrison or Trent Richardson despite how painfully obvious it was that they couldn't get the job done.  When a coach says he doesn't want to use no-huddle, despite how effective it has been for us, because it doesn't allow you to substitute players, that shows me he's in over his head.

 

I have nothing personal against anyone I've mentioned.  Pagano is a great person.  Irsay does a lot of charity work and has really given a lot to the community in Indy.  But they have all contributed to this team being in the bad state it's currently in.

[Nadine]

7 minutes ago, FanFromtheWasteland said:

By the last paragraph of the OP

yeah hypocritical is pretty heavy handed.  I missed that

[Superman]

18 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

Very well said.  But I think it didn't answer the question asked.  I make the case that free speech is always going to result in embarrassing commentary, and if you're involved in a group where that happens, it CAN be embarrassing to be associated with things said by the group, but it is always going to be there.  

 

On the other hand, supporting a team as a fan (i.e. fanatic) can be embarrassing because you choose to invest support from purchasing items or tickets to investing time talking about the team and when they play horribly, it can be embarrassing that with our one life to live and our limited resources of time and money, we spend it involved as a fan of that team.  

 

Rational people could find it embarrassing to put that sort of investment into something so poorly done.  I think the only answer to the question asked is the team in this case, is more embarrassing than the free speech of its fans.  

 

I'm typically not embarrassed by things other people do, because I don't lump myself in with other people. If other people see in me the things I dislike about other Colts fans, that's out of my control, and those people viewing me that way probably don't know anything about me, so I don't care what they think, and I'm not embarrassed by their view of me.

 

And to the bolded, I'm a fan because I want to be, just like you said. It's my choice. I'm fine with that. If fans of other teams look down on me because my team is having a relatively rough couple of seasons, oh well. Again, how they view me doesn't influence how I view myself. In general, if being a fan were about being aligned with a team that would make you look good, then fandom wouldn't really mean anything. We'd all just jump from bandwagon to bandwagon, right? 

 

If we're being totally rational about this, we wouldn't be fan-atics... 

 

I also disagree with your comment about there only being one answer to this. If I had to choose, I'd say the fans. 

[FanFromtheWasteland]

2 minutes ago, Nadine said:

yeah hypocritical is pretty heavy handed.  I missed that

No problem :-)

[Nadine]

8 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

What is crazy was people blaming the travel to London for out inept performance v the Jags. Did they get jet lag on the coach trip from the hotel to the LOS this Sunday? Aptly named stadium  now, eh!

I think most people don't blame the travel.  Just really horrified at the performance on an international stage......and getting up way early in the am to witness it to boot

[coltsfeva]

2 hours ago, zibby43 said:

The irony of OP's thread is hilarious.

 

OP complains about personal "assaults" against players/coaches (no one has been assaulted, I assure you.  Word you're looking for is "insults") then personally attacks the board members here lol.  

 

Dude, with all due respect, look up the definition of hypocrite before you embarrass yourself like this again.

 

OP literally calling me out by using a part of my thread title in his rant, while at the same time criticizing people for calling the players out.  Is that not the definition of hypocrisy?  

 

Why call the fans out?  We aren't playing like crap while making millions, and then blaming our poor play on other players.

 

OP, please give us a list of things we're allowed to talk about on your message board.

 

Also tell me, why are we not allowed to criticize this worthless team?  Does your daddy play for the Colts?

You're correct, I meant to use insults. Didn't proof read. I stand corrected.

 

There is a difference between between bringing an issue to light generically and degrading someone's character. 

 

People are frustrated - we all are.
   Out of that frustration, people neglect to credit the good coaching decisions, good draft/FA selections and good play in the guise of "being objective" or "realistic".  I don't see that as being anymore realistic than someone who doesn't see there are problems, which is not what I'm saying.

   The problems need to be corrected, I think we all agree on that. I just think so many if the problems can be corrected this year, should the Colts come out and play well for 60 minutes, start to build consistency and with it, confidence.

   

You say this team is worthless, I disagree. We are all entitled to our opinion. We shall see..

 

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

3 hours ago, 1959Colts said:

To me, the most embarrassing is, the fans comments defending Pagano, Grigson and Irsay.

 

Well said.

 

[richard pallo]

I don't know if you can pick one over the other.  The teams play?  They are a team with a great quarterback that is trying to bring in young players and trying to get them to contribute as fast as they can.  Some days they do other days they don't.  And some of these young players won't work out.  That's just the way it is. Can they play better?  Hopefully yes but who knows really.  Hopefully they learn from their mistakes and become better players.  Only time will tell.  Embarrassed by their play no, hoping for better is more like it.  The fans are what they are. Most think they are smarter than the people running things.  That's okay.  They can think that. They can vent and they feel better for it.  The fact is nothing they say is going to change anything really, just make them feel better.  The boss is Mr. Irsay.  And he will make changes when he thinks he should.  He made his decision last year.  That is pretty well locked in stone for the foreseeable future.  If he changes his mind so be it.  But until that day comes I will be hoping for success in all the decisions our team makes.  

[southwest1]

3 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

If it's true, is it bad?  Grigson is insanely incompetent and completely ignorant.  Pagano is in way over his head and has no idea what he's doing.  Irsay is the root cause of all of these problems because he's allowed this kind of culture to grow and he gave both Pagano and Grigson extensions.  Castonzo's play has been bad.  TJ Green might have one of the lowest football IQs on the team.  The WRs can't get separation.  The team looks like they've quit.  I don't see the problem in pointing it out

In the interest of full disclosure, I have DVRed the Colts Vs Chiefs game. I just haven't watched it yet. I will tonight when I record MNF. I like 21isSuperman & I do agree with him on 2 points. Pagano seems if not over his head than unable to make adjustments that swing the pendulum in our favor. I'm not even talking about winning just being competitive from 1 half to the other. He's been here since 2012 & we are still have too many penalties & mental lapses.

 

Second, Grigson here for the same length of time as Chuck feels like he's on a damage control radio tour going from station to station right now & the line "we all have to do better" is gonna fall on deaf ears once we miss the playoffs. And I don't care how Ryan tries to spin his words. He did throw Luck under the bus using his new contract as leverage cover. I will admit that Ryan did try to fill OL holes under Andrew's rookie deal, but the fact remains Luck is still taking a beating every week & that lack of protection falls squarely at Ryan's feet. What other  franchise other than the Browns goes thru multiple QBs like Chewbacca did during his lacerated kidney? 

 

I do agree also that it was a huge mistake to give both the HC & GM new deals too. Jimmy is the owner & can't really be criticized though because he's the boss, he controls the purse strings, & I do appreciate that he is a risk taker. I do like that. 

 

In closing, I just wanna say that I admire 21's passion. He just wants INDY to win rings & he knows Pags & Grigs are never going to deliver them so it's time to make a change once this yr is officially over. The handwriting is on the wall. 

[Malakai432]

4 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

We are ticked off at this team's horrible play this year by my God, can we stop with the personal assaults? (Pagano's an *, Grigson sucks, Irsay is on drugs and various assaults on players).

 

To say the Colts have "thrown Luck under the bus" and "quit on the team" coming from this fan base is a little hypocritical, judging by all the finger pointing and quitting going on this forum....

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's just part of the nature of forums, but rightfully so.  If the team plays like crap the fallout is going to lay on the coach/gm/owner and of course the players also.  You can blame the players for just not having talent, you can blame the GM for picking that talent, and you can blame the coach for creating a soft philosophy with soft players, lack of preparedness/game planning.  When something is a train wreck people will naturally see the obvious.  Yeah some comments may be a little far fetched but they may not be that far from the truth as one would think.

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

I don't hate them.  I have nothing personal against them.  I just think they're awful at their jobs and have contributed to the current state of the team.  Matt Millen is a career football person.  Are we not allowed to call him an inept GM?  Rob Ryan's defenses have been pretty bad for several years now, but he still has a job.  Jeff Fisher is a perennial 7-9 coach.  But since he's been coaching for so many years, it's unjust to criticize him?  Just because someone is a career football person, doesn't mean they're good at what they're doing. 

 

Regarding the OL, I think they're being coached poorly.  Their technique looks bad to me.  They posture themselves in such a way that they're easy to push back.  They bend at the waist, they use poor technique, and I think that's a coaching issue.  If you disagree, that's fine.  But my eyes tell me their technique is bad.  I don't expect us to have Dallas' OL in front of Luck at this point in the season, but the OL is 1st in the league in terms of sacks given up with 31 (2nd place is at 25), and 2nd in the league with 61 QB hits.  For a guy who's specialty is supposed to be OL, it doesn't really make sense.

 

Those who are making bad decisions are being criticized.  Irsay made a bad decision in retaining/extending Grigson and Pagano.  Grigson has made many bad decisions in how he's built the roster.  Pagano has made many bad coaching decisions, including continuing to start guys like Jon Harrison or Trent Richardson despite how painfully obvious it was that they couldn't get the job done.  When a coach says he doesn't want to use no-huddle, despite how effective it has been for us, because it doesn't allow you to substitute players, that shows me he's in over his head.

 

I have nothing personal against anyone I've mentioned.  Pagano is a great person.  Irsay does a lot of charity work and has really given a lot to the community in Indy.  But they have all contributed to this team being in the bad state it's currently in.

 

The way you talk about them is very personal. And not just you, some fans here say much worse stuff about them. Even if you're not talking about them on a personal level, some clearly are. And that's fine, but I find it to be outrageous.

 

To the bolded, you just have to knock that off. Matt Millen presided over the worst seven year stretch for any team in NFL history. The Lions were .277 under Millen's guidance. They had a 0 win season. They never won more than 7 games. The Colts haven't won fewer than 8 games under Grigson. Stop bringing up Matt Millen. Call him incompetent because his teams were incompetent. The Colts under Grigson, for all their many, obvious faults, have not been anywhere near incompetent.

 

Rob Ryan has been awful, yet the Colts got rid of their defensive coordinator who probably did more than Ryan typically does, with less talent. Where's the comparison?

 

And then, in the ultimate irony, didn't you want Jeff Fisher five years ago? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. And I feel like you defended Jeff Fisher as recent as a couple years ago. So Irsay is now awful because he puts up with Grigson and Pagano, but they've been more successful than any Jeff Fisher team since basically 1999.

 

And I meant to say earlier, I think very highly of you, based on what I know of you, but I don't think you're qualified to say that the OL is poorly coached or to comment on their technique. That's further illustrated when you say things like Philbin should be fired after 8 games, especially given the round robin the OL has been doing all season long. Philbin is an accomplished OL coach, but no coach takes a line of young guys with little experience and whips them totally into shape over night. It's one thing to say you're not impressed, quite another to say he should be fired.

 

Just to reiterate, there is plenty of room to criticize them all. It's the sensationalism, much of it based on inaccurate information, that annoys me. 

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

And I don't care how Ryan tries to spin his words. He did throw Luck under the bus using his new contract as leverage cover.

 

No he didn't. 

[southwest1]

Just now, Superman said:

 

No he didn't. 

Yes, he did. It's called reading between the lines Superman & deflecting blame, The difference between denotation & connotation. Not literally but figuratively. 

[zibby43]

19 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

You're correct, I meant to use insults. Didn't proof read. I stand corrected.

 

There is a difference between between bringing an issue to light generically and degrading someone's character. 

 

People are frustrated - we all are.
   Out of that frustration, people neglect to credit the good coaching decisions, good draft/FA selections and good play in the guise of "being objective" or "realistic".  I don't see that as being anymore realistic than someone who doesn't see there are problems, which is not what I'm saying.

   The problems need to be corrected, I think we all agree on that. I just think so many if the problems can be corrected this year, should the Colts come out and play well for 60 minutes, start to build consistency and with it, confidence.

   

You say this team is worthless, I disagree. We are all entitled to our opinion. We shall see..

 

 

 

I firmly believe the players are fair game, considering how much money they make.  More specifically, it's reasonable to criticize their play on the field.  I think virtually everyone here has kept it respectful in that regard.

 

On a side note, I unfairly took out some of my frustration on you, because you specifically used part of my thread title as an example, and I think that's a little ridiculous/hypocritical because I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to yours.

 

In any case, I apologize for crossing the line and being a bit rude. 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, southwest1 said:

Yes, he did. It's called reading between the lines Superman & deflecting blame, The difference between denotation & connotation. Not literally but figuratively. 

 

No he didn't. You can't read between the lines if you ignore context. 

 

Some people just see/hear what they want to see/hear. And if you already dislike Ryan Grigson, you could easily think that he threw Luck under the bus. Yet, he absolutely did not.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

48 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's well established that you hate everyone running the Colts right now. 

 

Where I think it's over the line is when uninformed fans start calling career football people inept, saying they're over their head and have no clue what they're doing, etc., especially when you're talking about a team that's been reasonably successful over the last five years. 

 

The Colts staff has made a bunch of mistakes, and I'm not confident in them, but I also don't think that they deserve most of the criticism they get around here. I think it's laughable that the majority of fans here can bang on Pagano for playing it safe at the end of the first half against the Titans, then talk about how many mistakes the offense made in the Chiefs game, including the second quarter pick. I think it's crazy that people -- including you -- are calling for the new OL coach to be fired because the OL isn't great after 8 games.

 

It's outrageous, I really do mean that. The zealotry and increasingly aggressive demeaning of everything related to the Colts is mind boggling. This organization has been well run for a long time now, and even the owner is receiving this venom now, primarily because he didn't fire the couple of guys that you all hate. 

 

I'm kind of at a loss for words. 

Career football people can be inept. Grigson is inept. Pagano probably is too. 

 

When an owner gives you the best young qb in the league (at the time, Carr ia better now), a bunch of money and free will to do what you want with the teams direction, and five years later we're worse than year one...yes you are inept. It's not just a run of bad luck, it's ineptitude. In fact, if I wasn't a Colts fan, I'd call it hilarious ineptitude.

 

I'm sure Titans fans or Texans fans are laughing at how we had the NFL at our fingertips with Andrew Luck and then completely blew it. Our teams product is God awful rright now and many are to blame. Criticism justly goes to the organization and not its fans. 

[braveheartcolt]

31 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I think most people don't blame the travel.  Just really horrified at the performance on an international stage......and getting up way early in the am to witness it to boot

No, there were quite a few who did, and were adamant about it. But all your points are very true!

 

[zibby43]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

Some people just see/hear what they want to see/hear. And if you already dislike Ryan Grigson, you could easily think that he threw Luck under the bus. Yet, he absolutely did not.

 

You're one of the best, most insightful posters on this board, but I have been a little surprised to see this reaction by you today.

 

Most people are not getting personal with Pagano.  If I read that someone calls Pagano inept, it is pretty clear to me that they are speaking from a professional standpoint, as it pertains to this particular team.  I don't interpret it to be a slam against his character as a man/human being, at all.

 

Second, I really think people have a right to be angry at this point.

 

Pagano's track record as a head coach is not very long, at all.  And the past few seasons, the arrow is definitely pointing down. 

 

What are your answers to the following questions I posed earlier?

 

1) Why do we continue to see backbreaking penalties and stupid mistakes at the worst possible times, week-in, week-out?  Discipline can be coached into players but Pagano cannot do it with this group.   A beat writer said the Colts' locker room has "a country club atmosphere" where no players are afraid of Pagano.

 

2) Why are the Special Teams units complete disasters (aside from the personal performances of PM and AV)?  To not be able to field a punt return unit that can at least fair coach a football, at the NFL level, is inexcusable.  Wanna blame the players?  Okay, they suck too, but it's the coaches' job to extract the best out of them.  And it's on Grigson for building a team that has laughably bad depth.

 

Tony Dungy just publicly called this team disappointing.  The most soft-spoken man on earth.

 

As I said before, I just think it's time we stop fooling ourselves.  During the Pagano era, things have gone down as follows: When Luck plays incredibly, the Colts have a chance at winning.  When he plays well, the Colts lose close games.  When he plays badly, the Colts get blown out.  That's the definition of a flawed roster and flawed organization.

[southwest1]

Just now, Superman said:

 

No he didn't. You can't read between the lines if you ignore context. 

 

Some people just see/hear what they want to see/hear.

Are you kidding me? LOL! He went into a diatribe excuse about having only so much money to go around, A classic cop out excuse. Is there a salary cap? Yes. Did I acknowledge that Grigs tried to fix the OL & that some of those selections haven't panned out? Yes.

 

Tell me Superman, what other GM can go thru Luck, Hasselbeck, Freeman, Whitehurst,  & still be considered competent at their front office job in 2015? Hmmm....Enlighten me...

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

Career football people can be inept. Grigson is inept. Pagano probably is too. 

 

When an owner gives you the best young qb in the league (at the time, Carr ia better now), a bunch of money and free will to do what you want with the teams direction, and five years later we're worse than year one...yes you are inept. It's not just a run of bad luck, it's ineptitude. In fact, if I wasn't a Colts fan, I'd call it hilarious ineptitude.

 

I'm sure Titans fans or Texans fans are laughing at how we had the NFL at our fingertips with Andrew Luck and then completely blew it. Our teams product is God awful rright now and many are to blame. Criticism justly goes to the organization and not its fans. 

 

The fans aren't responsible for anything the team does, so "no duh" to the bolded. 

 

The whole "they're worse than they were Year 1" thing ignores the fact that the team had more success in each of its first three seasons. Last year was ugly, this year is worse. Put all of that on Grigson and Pagano, no problem, they are not above criticism. But why are we ignoring the relative successes that the team has had under them?

 

That is not a defense of their overall job, nor is it a reason to keep them moving forward. It's just a recognition that this team is not in any way a laughingstock. That's just dumb. The Titans haven't been above .500 at midseason in a decade, and they're going to laugh at the Colts? Please. The Jaguars are awful. The Texans have $72m committed to a bad QB. The truth is, if not for shooting themselves in the foot, the Colts -- as bad as this team is -- is actually good enough to be in the lead in this division. Not an endorsement of the Colts, but certainly not an endorsement for any of the other teams, which are actually historically poorly run and legitimate laughingstocks in the NFL. 

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Are you kidding me? LOL! He went into a diatribe excuse about having only so much money to go around, A classic cop out excuse. Is there a salary cap? Yes. Did I acknowledge that Grigs tried to fix the OL & that some of those selections haven't panned out? Yes.

 

Tell me Superman, what other GM can go thru Luck, Hasselbeck, Freeman, Whitehurst,  & still be considered competent at their front office job in 2015? Hmmm....Enlighten me...

 

To the bolded, no he didn't. 

[NewEra]

Teams play. 

[NewEra]

We went from contender to pretender

[southwest1]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

To the bolded, no he didn't. 

Grigson has 2 jobs: Provide Pags with athletes to mold like clay & protect the face of the franchise. Now, he succeeded on the first task, but came up short on the second. Some blame is attributable to a QB's release yes, but lacerated kidneys don't happen by accident either. 

 

Actually, that is exactly what Ryan said...Luck's contract, the size of it, restricts the capacity of the team to fill holes or vulnerabilities on the roster. The implication being Luck's salary minimizes protection in other areas. Let's not beat around the bush & play semantics or try to be cute shall we. Grigs was running for cover from the INDY backlash. I like you Superman, but that's the truth. 

[Superman]

9 minutes ago, zibby43 said:

You're one of the best, most insightful posters on this board, but I have been a little surprised to see this reaction by you today.

 

Most people are not getting personal with Pagano.  If I read that someone calls Pagano inept, it is pretty clear to me that they are speaking from a professional standpoint, as it pertains to this particular team.  I don't interpret it to be a slam against his character as a man/human being, at all.

 

I'll respond, and I'm sorry for the length, but I think I will have said all I have to said about this particular subject once this is done. At least I hope...

 

Calling Pagano inept isn't overly personal. It's hardly the worst thing people say about Pagano around here, though. The difference is I don't think he's inept. I think he understands football and coaching more than anyone else here. I don't think he's the right coach for the Colts, though, not at this point. It's not a defense of Pagano. I just disagree with the sentiment that a) because he doesn't make decisions the masses think he should that he's inept (especially since many of those decisions are actually right, like being conservative with an inconsistent offense in the second quarter with a lead), and b) that "he's inept" is the limit on what people say about Pagano. Things get much meaner than that.

 

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Second, I really think people have a right to be angry at this point.

 

I have the right to shout into the wind, doesn't solve anything. I've never asked anyone not to express their feelings here. I just think many people are wrong, and in general the tone here is one of an entitled, bratty fanbase that pouts when their team isn't performing well.

 

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Pagano's track record as a head coach is not very long, at all.  And the past few seasons, the arrow is definitely pointing down. 

 

It's pointing down now. It wasn't in 2014. That, again, is not an endorsement of Pagano. Just asking that we don't limit our memories to the last 14 months out of a sense of convenience. 

 

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What are your answers to the following questions I posed earlier?

 

1) Why do we continue to see backbreaking penalties and stupid mistakes at the worst possible times, week-in, week-out?  Discipline can be coached into players but Pagano cannot do it with this group.   A beat writer said the Colts' locker room has "a country club atmosphere" where no players are afraid of Pagano.

 

 

Poor discipline. Maybe poor coaching. I don't doubt that the coaching staff is riding the players on penalties, but I think some are unavoidable, some are bad calls (AC's first holding yesterday was ticky-tack, to my eye), some are due to youth (TJ Green is inexperienced and needs to hold up on some of these hits), and some are inexplicable. There's no excuse.

 

At the same time, weren't the 2013 and 2014 Colts one of the least penalized teams in the league? Wasn't that a credit to Pagano? So I don't buy that he's not capable of running a team that doesn't get penalized a lot, but it's definitely not a good thing that these Colts commit so many penalties. (Five for 45 yards isn't the worst...)

 

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2) Why are the Special Teams units complete disasters (aside from the personal performances of PM and AV)?  To not be able to field a punt return unit that can at least fair coach a football, at the NFL level, is inexcusable.  Wanna blame the players?  Okay, they suck too, but it's the coaches' job to extract the best out of them.  And it's on Grigson for building a team that has laughably bad depth.

 

I think this is sensationalism, maybe fueled by a lack of observation of other teams. The Colts were down to their 5th option at punt returner yesterday. Sometimes mistakes happen. It's not the end of the world, honestly. And good teams muff punts, too. In all, the Colts have a very good ST unit.

 

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Tony Dungy just publicly called this team disappointing.  The most soft-spoken man on earth.

 

So? He told the truth. Find me someone who isn't disappointed with the Colts right now.

 

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As I said before, I just think it's time we stop fooling ourselves.  During the Pagano era, things have gone down as follows: When Luck plays incredibly, the Colts have a chance at winning.  When he plays well, the Colts lose close games.  When he plays badly, the Colts get blown out.  That's the definition of a flawed roster and flawed organization.

 

That's fine. The flaws are fixable. That might include a change of leadership, probably at least the coach. I'm fine with all that. 

 

As I said, though, I'm not embarrassed over the Colts not being as good as we think they should be.

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Grigson has 2 jobs: Provide Pags with athletes to mold like clay & protect the face of the franchise. Now, he succeeded on the first task, but came up short on the second. Some blame is attributable to a QB's release yes, but lacerated kidneys don't happen by accident either. 

 

Actually, that is exactly what Ryan said...Luck's contract, the size of it, restricts the capacity of the team to fill holes or vulnerabilities on the roster. The implication being Luck's salary minimizes protection in other areas. Let's not beat around the bush & play semantics or try to be cute shall we. Grigs was running for cover from the INDY backlash. I like you Superman, but that's the truth. 

 

I'm glad you like me, but you're dead wrong. Sorry you can't piece the context together, but Grigson's comment was clearly that they have to nail the draft moving forward, not that Luck's contract has in any way hurt the team. 

[Yoshinator]

15 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The fans aren't responsible for anything the team does, so "no duh" to the bolded. 

 

The whole "they're worse than they were Year 1" thing ignores the fact that the team had more success in each of its first three seasons. Last year was ugly, this year is worse. Put all of that on Grigson and Pagano, no problem, they are not above criticism. But why are we ignoring the relative successes that the team has had under them?

 

That is not a defense of their overall job, nor is it a reason to keep them moving forward. It's just a recognition that this team is not in any way a laughingstock. That's just dumb. The Titans haven't been above .500 at midseason in a decade, and they're going to laugh at the Colts? Please. The Jaguars are awful. The Texans have $72m committed to a bad QB. The truth is, if not for shooting themselves in the foot, the Colts -- as bad as this team is -- is actually good enough to be in the lead in this division. Not an endorsement of the Colts, but certainly not an endorsement for any of the other teams, which are actually historically poorly run and legitimate laughingstocks in the NFL. 

We started off successful because the team, when they had just got Andrew Luck, had lots of players and FA's that had decent experience and decent coaching, despite the fact they were old and we were beginning the rebuild. The players we did draft in Luck's first year were also relatively effective as that draft was mostly a hit. Not to mention Arians coached most of Luck's first year. As the years passed on, we drafted more and more rookies, missed on some picks, and all the new draftees were getting poorly by Pagano and the coordinators. They weren't growing, and if they did, their potential wasn't realized, including, most importantly, Andrew Luck.

 

We are a laughingstock, maybe not to the AFC South, but everyone else. The lame AFC South champs excuse doesn't hold water. We have been exposed. The AFC South is like me playing pokemon again, but playing in the 10 and under age division. Who cares if I beat a bunch of kids with little talent? The AFC South is the kiddie division. Except when we face the big boys (higher age divisions in my example), who we should be at least at an equal skill level with by now, we get destroyed. The criticism is warranted.

[PrincetonTiger]

Everyone needs to remember

 Everything Will Be Okay

[kcccolts]

Sports trams success can be very cyclical, very few are dominant year after year and even then it can take years to get back to where they were. Just look at Manchester United, change of manager and after 25 years of continued success they are now a long way from successful.

Things are not looking good for the colts right now, and fans have a right to express how they feel, but I would think (and hope) that the coach GM, owner etc are hurting every bit as much as the fans at this time.

I coach an U10 soccer team and if we get beat on a Saturday morning, I will spend the rest of the weekend working out why and what went wrong, how them and I could improve for the next game and I would imagine Colts coaches would be doing exactly the same, but with the difference being their scores mean a lot more tham mine.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that it will not always be this bad. In Scotland we have a saying that "The darkest hour is just before the dawn".

Is that where the colts are at present?

 

[Ameche58]

I retired to Minneapolis 3 years ago and Pagano, Grigson and Irsay are turning me PURPLE.   Never thought that would happen after being a Colt fan for almost 60 years!!!!

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

23 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The fans aren't responsible for anything the team does, so "no duh" to the bolded. 

 

The whole "they're worse than they were Year 1" thing ignores the fact that the team had more success in each of its first three seasons. Last year was ugly, this year is worse. Put all of that on Grigson and Pagano, no problem, they are not above criticism. But why are we ignoring the relative successes that the team has had under them?

 

That is not a defense of their overall job, nor is it a reason to keep them moving forward. It's just a recognition that this team is not in any way a laughingstock. That's just dumb. The Titans haven't been above .500 at midseason in a decade, and they're going to laugh at the Colts? Please. The Jaguars are awful. The Texans have $72m committed to a bad QB. The truth is, if not for shooting themselves in the foot, the Colts -- as bad as this team is -- is actually good enough to be in the lead in this division. Not an endorsement of the Colts, but certainly not an endorsement for any of the other teams, which are actually historically poorly run and legitimate laughingstocks in the NFL. 

 lol what? Them being good for 3 years, then 8-8 after your qb misses half the season, and then fully healthy being as bad as we are is exactly why they should be criticized and are inept. 

 

You said career football people have  no business being called inept by the layman and I simply argue that they do.

 

And yes, those teams can and do laugh at us. Mediocre teams doing better than division rivals always have fans poking fun at our misfortunes 

 

[21isSuperman]

 

44 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The way you talk about them is very personal. And not just you, some fans here say much worse stuff about them. Even if you're not talking about them on a personal level, some clearly are. And that's fine, but I find it to be outrageous.

 

To the bolded, you just have to knock that off. Matt Millen presided over the worst seven year stretch for any team in NFL history. The Lions were .277 under Millen's guidance. They had a 0 win season. They never won more than 7 games. The Colts haven't won fewer than 8 games under Grigson. Stop bringing up Matt Millen. Call him incompetent because his teams were incompetent. The Colts under Grigson, for all their many, obvious faults, have not been anywhere near incompetent.

 

Rob Ryan has been awful, yet the Colts got rid of their defensive coordinator who probably did more than Ryan typically does, with less talent. Where's the comparison?

 

And then, in the ultimate irony, didn't you want Jeff Fisher five years ago? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. And I feel like you defended Jeff Fisher as recent as a couple years ago. So Irsay is now awful because he puts up with Grigson and Pagano, but they've been more successful than any Jeff Fisher team since basically 1999.

 

And I meant to say earlier, I think very highly of you, based on what I know of you, but I don't think you're qualified to say that the OL is poorly coached or to comment on their technique. That's further illustrated when you say things like Philbin should be fired after 8 games, especially given the round robin the OL has been doing all season long. Philbin is an accomplished OL coach, but no coach takes a line of young guys with little experience and whips them totally into shape over night. It's one thing to say you're not impressed, quite another to say he should be fired.

 

Just to reiterate, there is plenty of room to criticize them all. It's the sensationalism, much of it based on inaccurate information, that annoys me. 

I try not to make it personal.  I've seen some posts on here calling Irsay a drug addict and saying Pagano only kept his job because he had cancer and all that kind of stuff.  To me, that's nonsense.  I try to focus on the football-related issues.  I don't know much about Grigson's personal life, but Irsay has done a lot of charity work for the community in Indy and Pagano is as classy as they come.  I have nothing personal against them.  My criticisms are all professional.

 

I brought up Millen just to show that a person who has spent a career in football isn't necessarily good at what they do.  Millen isn't the comparison, but just an example.  Same for Ryan and Fisher.  I'm not trying to say the Colts are good or bad because of what Millen or Ryan did, but rather that Millen and Ryan are two guys who have had a career in football and were/are terrible at their jobs.  A career in football doesn't mean success in football.  If it did, most coaches would never get fired since so many of them coach for so many years. 

 

To be honest, I don't recall my feelings about Fisher back then.  If I recall correctly, I did like Fisher several years ago.  He came across to me as a good leader.  But the more research I've done on him, the more I've come to see he's perennially average at best.  Again, me bringing those names up weren't to compare them to current Colts coaches.  It was simply to counter your argument that people who have spent their careers in football know best, which, with all due respect, isn't true.  I can provide you with a long list of people who have spent a career in football who aren't/weren't good at their jobs.