DeflateGate: Brady suspension expected (mega merge / updated)

[OffensivelyPC]

I think we all know why, except for the hardliners. This is a sad commentary for the win at all costs philosophy without a regard to honor and fair play. It is organizational shenanigans at its worse. You can't confuse this with individual player miscues, which all teams have, this is institutional , and a culture of malfeasance on many levels.

Completely agree.  There's a difference between players getting busted for PED's.  All teams have that and it can't be avoided in every conceivable instance.  Besides, there are means of discovering those violations, like random drug screens.  This is different.  There is no real meaningful way to discover this type of institutional violation because it requires covert attempts to circumvent the rules after you've already been tested.  a PED user has those drugs in their system, so even if they play a certain amount of games while using, there's a probability that you will get tested and test positive should you continue to use.  Using underinflated footballs requires being caught in the act.  If the game is over and no one caught them, there's no test you can administer the next day to discover it.  

[amfootball]

Simple, honest question.  Does it make a difference and lessen the guilt of your patriots if he did? 

 

Because some other team may have cheated it makes your team's actions okay?

Just trying to keep perspective as saying the Pats won their games because of it is an indication of loss of reality ...

 

BTW, your Chargers ball tampered in 2012 and were caught and paid a $25, 000 fine for refusing to give the towels they had put pine tar on to rub the balls, http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/10/21/chargers-glazer-stickum-use/1647413/

[amfootball]

Completely agree.  There's a difference between players getting busted for PED's.  All teams have that and it can't be avoided in every conceivable instance.  Besides, there are means of discovering those violations, like random drug screens.  This is different.  There is no real meaningful way to discover this type of institutional violation because it requires covert attempts to circumvent the rules after you've already been tested.  a PED user has those drugs in their system, so even if they play a certain amount of games while using, there's a probability that you will get tested and test positive should you continue to use.  Using underinflated footballs requires being caught in the act.  If the game is over and no one caught them, there's no test you can administer the next day to discover it.  

That must be why all those baseball players caught doing roids are getting into the hall of fame and the guys who corked their bats and scuffed their balls are being held out .,.. oh wait.

[The Old Crow]

lol. Even funnier. Lewis' ability to play and performance were enhanced by the juice. That is cheating worse than ball pressure.

I don't think it was ever proven Ray used deer antler spray. From what I read, even if he did, they are not sure it even helps humans heal faster. The Wells report, however, paints a much darker picture of institutional cheating at its finest.

[amfootball]

I don't think it was ever proven Ray used deer antler spray. From what I read, even if he did, they are not sure it even helps humans heal faster. The Wells report, however, paints a much darker picture of institutional cheating at its finest.

Oh, so you want hard evidence do you? I would say yes, it was "more probable than not" that Ray used the juice just like Wells and the ball tampering ...

[King Colt]

Pats vs. Steelers first game Thurs. night and their second game is against a solid Buffalo team. Of all times for water boarding to be outlawed.

[ColtRider]

This part I found interesting in Peter King's article. He was saying that IF Brady tried to cheat, he was pretty bad at it.

 

Since the NFL allowed all teams to condition footballs the way they wanted for use in both home and road games in 2006, the idea was that quarterbacks could play with footballs in the same shape for 16 weekends, not eight. (Previously, road quarterbacks played with footballs broken in in whatever way the home team wished.) But road teams do not bring their own ballboys to games. So, if a home-team ballboy was doctoring the footballs in any way before the game, that’s not something that could happen on the road. Brady, of course, is suspected of having the balls doctored for him in the AFC title game, and it’d be naïve to think that this was the first game in which two longtime club employees messed with the footballs for Brady.

But if John Jastremski or Jim McNally have done any funny business with the balls over the past few years, the results sure don’t show it. Some telling numbers for Brady in the nine regular seasons between 2006 and 2014:

Passer Rating

Home Games 100.2

Road Games  99.7

Passing Yards

Home Games 271.8

Road Games  274.3 

TD-to-Interception Differential

Home Games Plus-96

Road Games  Plus-96 

Wouldn’t you figure that if Brady was getting such an edge by having footballs doctored before home games—and by the simple factor of home-field advantage—that, more probable than not, he’d be markedly better at home?

 

One thing that IS clear is that the action itself isn't a big deal, as shown by the dominance of Brady in the second half of the AFCCG as well as his Superbowl performance with perfectly regulated footballs. So people are really calling for a long suspension for supposedly lying? It's not even about the deflating anymore, it's his response to it that people are apparently upset about and I don't really get it. Its not about the integrity of the game anymore, its the apparent integrity of the guy.

"It's not about the integrity of the game anymore, it's the apparent integrity of the guy."

You couldn't have proven my point any better, dynasty13! What people are miserably failing to see, is the two go hand-in-hand!

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

I'm thinking he gets 6-8 games with a reduction to 3-4 on appeal, so we'll probably see him.  The biased part of me wants him to get a season, but really, what Brady did isn't as bad as what guys like Hardy and Rice did.  The biggest infraction Brady has committed in my eyes is the lie and cover up, which tears at the integrity of the player, franchise and the game.  That's more important to me than simply taking some pressure out of a football.

 

I agree with everything you said I would just add IMO they did this all last season & that gets to the heart of the problem the integrity of the game is now in question .

 

If the NFL takes this as serious as they claim they should lower the boom . fines to the max 1.000.000  of course per league rules the max is 500.000 ,

 

IMO half is Brady & the other is Belicheck ignorance is no excuse ask Sean Payton .

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

I find that to be a stupid stance. Is a guy with a corked bat not cheating if he strike out?  HUH you thought that was my opinion ?

 

Yeah Stupid stance as a Colts fan I can only laugh at the ignorance .

[The Old Crow]

Oh, so you want hard evidence do you? I would say yes, it was "more probable than not" that Ray used the juice just like Wells and the ball tampering ...

Why do you think the Patriots are looked at different than the Red Sox ? Ortiz is a roider , but so are many others on the Yankees, Orioles, and other teams. The is a MLB problem, or NFL if you will, and the league's have to put in punitive rules and penalties to stop it. Ok, if Ray did spray , I could point to examples on every team about PED use. Again , we are talking about institutional cheating which is why the Patriots are viewed differently than the Red Sox. Both teams have won, but one organization is completely panned universally for institutional skullduggery .

[jvan1973]

Oh, so you want hard evidence do you? I would say yes, it was "more probable than not" that Ray used the juice just like Wells and the ball tampering ...

Can I get a link into the investigation you participated in that brought you to that conclusion

[18Manning]

Deflategate is stupid. Brady takes the football at the minimum 12.5 psi, of course it will lose a few tenths in cold weather. The rest of the NFL would rather be jealous of the patriots than try to beat them, and it's just embarrassing.

 

Not everyone is jealous. Using this argument as a defense is what's embarrassing. So, you're arguing that Wells is jealous, the commissioner is jealous? The infraction doesn't matter. The rules don't matter. ALL this is because EVERYONE is jealous of the Patriots? The evidence suggests guilt. The standard isn't 100% proof to be guilty. OJ Simpson wasn't proven guilty in a criminal court, but I'll bet most would say "yeah, he's guilty". I'd suggest the same here. I think OJ is guilty, but I'm not jealous of him. Stop using that ridiculous argument and look at the evidence.

[Hoosier]

This kills me!  It takes some serious gall to think that the Patriots should deserve some kind of seat at the table in "negotiating" what punishment will be handed down!

 

There is a theory that Brady and the Patriots are working with the league to resolve the Deflategate matter, but a variety of sources have told the Herald the NFL is working solely on its own accord to reach a conclusion. There have been zero negotiations between the sides to resolve this matter, and the NFL is not dealing with the Patriots or Brady in any sort of way, according to the sources familiar with the situation.

 

 

Don't you think the ship has sailed on that??

 

 

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2015/05/sources_nfl_working_toward_disciplinary_findings_without

[The Old Crow]

This kills me! It takes some serious gall to think that the Patriots should deserve some kind of seat at the table in "negotiating" what punishment will be handed down!

Don't you think the ship has sailed on that??

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2015/05/sources_nfl_working_toward_disciplinary_findings_without

This is like Jim Boeheim and Syracuse putting themselves on probation for the post season, when their team stunk that season, and they were trying to beat a year or two out of deserved NCAA sanctions. I think this calls for a special investigation, as Goddell is a known sycophant of Kraft.

[Nadine]

One thing that IS clear is that the action itself isn't a big deal, as shown by the dominance of Brady in the second half of the AFCCG as well as his Superbowl performance with perfectly regulated footballs. So people are really calling for a long suspension for supposedly lying? It's not even about the deflating anymore, it's his response to it that people are apparently upset about and I don't really get it. Its not about the integrity of the game anymore, its the apparent integrity of the guy.

 

 

Agree that it isn't a big deal in terms of the game itself

 

Speaking for myself, it's not about Brady in particular.  It's about intentionally circumventing the rules and then all parties concerned using the argument 'it's not a big deal'

 

Look before the Wells report, everyone on the Pats side was looking forward to the report because they were sure the report would be in their favor.

 

It wasn't

 

Now, those same folks are using the 'your just a hater' argument.

 

It's a rule violation made worse by not telling the truth and the NFL shouldn't condone that.

 

You have to admit, the sketch nature of stealing the balls and sneaking into the mens room with them.  It's weasely.  And I think you should also agree that it's time for the officials to nail down access to the balls......at the very least.

 

But I think Brady and equipment personnel need to be called out for making their own rules.  We already have rules that apply to everyone.  You know?

 

In this case, the patriots (or at least a few of them) went a bit too far in their quest to find loopholes in rules.  They got caught and it's embarrassing that they lied about it.  But there it is, it is what it is.  Accept responsibility and move on.

 

I sure hope we don't have any more of these situations.  I hope this discourages any similar sorts of sketch behavior in the NFL.

[PeterBowman]

This is like Jim Boeheim and Syracuse putting themselves on probation for the post season, when their team stunk that season, and they were trying to beat a year or two out of deserved NCAA sanctions. I think this calls for a special investigation, as Goddell is a known sycophant of Kraft.

I'm saying indefinite suspension until it's found out how far this went back.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

More importantly, why was everything done in secrecy?  Why was the footballs taken without the referee's permission?  Why would the footballs be taken into the bathroom?  If this was "only" air pressure, things wouldn't have been done to avoid detection.

 

Yeah and how did Mc Nally use the urinal in a bathroom that does'nt have one ?  - Good reason for the Organization's lawyers not to allow the NFL to question him again .

 

From top to bottom cheaters & liars with no concern for the truth , A lil thing made big all in New England , The player the 2 dirt bags Mcnally & Jastremski & the lawyer for Brady & Krafts team lawyer have a piece in this puzzle .

 

Thats the thing about a lie it just keeps growing .

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Just trying to keep perspective as saying the Pats won their games because of it is an indication of loss of reality ...

 

BTW, your Chargers ball tampered in 2012 and were caught and paid a $25, 000 fine for refusing to give the towels they had put pine tar on to rub the balls, http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/10/21/chargers-glazer-stickum-use/1647413/

 

 

The Chargers released a brief statement on their website Sunday afternoon, stating, "We are aware of the inquiry and we are cooperating fully with the League."

 

 

Not the same the Patriots have not cooperated fully & thats in the report .

 

Try again

[Girlzarefanstoo]

Just trying to keep perspective as saying the Pats won their games because of it is an indication of loss of reality ...

 

BTW, your Chargers ball tampered in 2012 and were caught and paid a $25, 000 fine for refusing to give the towels they had put pine tar on to rub the balls, http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/10/21/chargers-glazer-stickum-use/1647413/

Nice try at deflection once again.  And once again, you are in error - Google isn't your friend if you don't research instead of just grabbing a link.  Here's what really happened:

 

1.  The towels were not illegal.

2.  There was no substance on the balls.

3.  They were fined for not immediately handing over the towels to the refs when requested.  

 

"The whole story is a little odd. It technically wasn't against the rules to use the towels, but it's no longer going to be allowed. The Chargers didn't gain an advantage, but they were fined anyway."

 

Then ultimately, even the fine was reversed on appeal.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/04/chargers-ultimately-prevailed-in-appeal-of-towel-fine/

 

End of story. 

[corgi]

Deflategate is stupid. Brady takes the football at the minimum 12.5 psi, of course it will lose a few tenths in cold weather. The rest of the NFL would rather be jealous of the patriots than try to beat them, and it's just embarrassing.

It's embarrassing and stupid because you say so? Gotcha, that's a sound argument you have there.

[18Manning]

Read this article the other day and thought it was pretty accurate regarding everyone's position on this...

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/05/09/reality-not-looking-good-for-tom-brady-and-patriots/IGT3myWkYdZagI4FCzkHKJ/story.html

[The Old Crow]

I'm saying indefinite suspension until it's found out how far this went back.

I agree. Because this is serial cheating at an institutional level over parts of a decade, a formal , special investigation is warranted. Who can forget a bloated Kraft bellowing at everyone about how wrong they were about this matter ? They were slinging accusations at the Ravens, Colts, Harbaugh, and Grigson, instead of just taking responsibility for their wrongdoings. It continues, as instead of showing contrition, we get dodged answers , excusing this by trying to throw other teams in the muck, and silence from other top officials.

[OffensivelyPC]

That must be why all those baseball players caught doing roids are getting into the hall of fame and the guys who corked their bats and scuffed their balls are being held out .,.. oh wait.

Right, when you get elected into the hall of fame and found to have cheated, it Saints your legacy. (EDIT: why the heck is "Saints" with a t instead of s censored out?) (EDIT#2: And no, I didn't mean "Saintt")

[ColtRider]

Agree that it isn't a big deal in terms of the game itself

 

Speaking for myself, it's not about Brady in particular.  It's about intentionally circumventing the rules and then all parties concerned using the argument 'it's not a big deal'

 

Look before the Wells report, everyone on the Pats side was looking forward to the report because they were sure the report would be in their favor.

 

It wasn't

 

Now, those same folks are using the 'your just a hater' argument.

 

It's a rule violation made worse by not telling the truth and the NFL shouldn't condone that.

 

You have to admit, the sketch nature of stealing the balls and sneaking into the mens room with them.  It's weasely.  And I think you should also agree that it's time for the officials to nail down access to the balls......at the very least.

 

But I think Brady and equipment personnel need to be called out for making their own rules.  We already have rules that apply to everyone.  You know?

 

In this case, the patriots (or at least a few of them) went a bit too far in their quest to find loopholes in rules.  They got caught and it's embarrassing that they lied about it.  But there it is, it is what it is.  Accept responsibility and move on.

 

I sure hope we don't have any more of these situations.  I hope this discourages any similar sorts of sketch behavior in the NFL.

Exactly, Nadine! Outta likes. Nice post.

[Restored]

Nice try at deflection once again.  And once again, you are in error - Google isn't your friend if you don't research instead of just grabbing a link.  Here's what really happened:

 

1.  The towels were not illegal.

2.  There was no substance on the balls.

3.  They were fined for not immediately handing over the towels to the refs when requested.  

 

"The whole story is a little odd. It technically wasn't against the rules to use the towels, but it's no longer going to be allowed. The Chargers didn't gain an advantage, but they were fined anyway."

 

Then ultimately, even the fine was reversed on appeal.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/04/chargers-ultimately-prevailed-in-appeal-of-towel-fine/

 

End of story. 

 

The enemy of enemy is my friend in this situation. #Destroyed

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Am can say everyone does it & she's right just nothing like the Patriots . They claimed crowd noise was piped in & they were wrong the Colts were exonerated .

 

In all sports people try things but in football one team has taken it to a higher level and are mentioned more than any other team infact they are in a league of there own .

 

A good read  .The Patriots are also the first to cast a stone from there glass house .

 

 

 

 

http://www.totalprosports.com/2015/01/22/deflategate-and-9-other-cases-of-nfl-cheaters-caught-red-handed/

[amfootball]

Why do you think the Patriots are looked at different than the Red Sox ? Ortiz is a roider , but so are many others on the Yankees, Orioles, and other teams. The is a MLB problem, or NFL if you will, and the league's have to put in punitive rules and penalties to stop it. Ok, if Ray did spray , I could point to examples on every team about PED use. Again , we are talking about institutional cheating which is why the Patriots are viewed differently than the Red Sox. Both teams have won, but one organization is completely panned universally for institutional skullduggery .

Ok, so you are going to play the everyone does it card in terms of the roids? I will buy that. But let's not kid ourselves, all the QBs manipulate the balls and according to your former QB Blake, all QBs tamper with the balls in terms of pressure. Just this season we had ball tampering with the Vikings and no punishment. So you can't play both sides here. Sorry.

[OffensivelyPC]

Yeah and how did Mc Nally use the urinal in a bathroom that does'nt have one ?  - Good reason for the Organization's lawyers not to allow the NFL to question him again .

 

I thought about bringing that up.  But I'd give McNally the benefit of the doubt on that one.  It's one of the few items in the report that I didn't put too much weight on (and it's not really necessary to lead to the same conclusion that he deflated the footballs).  In simple misspeak, he could have meant he went to the urinal there and lied about it, or he could have been thinking of a different bathroom.  But the important part of that testimony was that he does not deny going into a bathroom alone with the footballs.  It looks sketchy whether he went inthere to deflate the footballs or to go to the bathroom.  Why not go to the restroom without the footballs?  The point is, he waited until he had already taken the footballs without Anderson knowing about it and then entered a locked restroom with enough time to deflate them.  Whether or not he instead used the restroom is left to the trier of fact, but it doesn't look good with the surrounding facts.

[amfootball]

Nice try at deflection once again.  And once again, you are in error - Google isn't your friend if you don't research instead of just grabbing a link.  Here's what really happened:

 

1.  The towels were not illegal.

2.  There was no substance on the balls.

3.  They were fined for not immediately handing over the towels to the refs when requested.  

 

"The whole story is a little odd. It technically wasn't against the rules to use the towels, but it's no longer going to be allowed. The Chargers didn't gain an advantage, but they were fined anyway."

 

Then ultimately, even the fine was reversed on appeal.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/04/chargers-ultimately-prevailed-in-appeal-of-towel-fine/

 

End of story. 

The team was fine 20,000 for the towels and told to cut it out ... http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/san-diego-chargers-2012-towel-violation-similar-to-patriots

[Restored]

Ok, so you are going to play the everyone does it card in terms of the roids? I will buy that. But let's not kid ourselves, all the QBs manipulate the balls and according to your former QB Blake, all QBs tamper with the balls in terms of pressure. Just this season we had ball tampering with the Vikings and no punishment. So you can't play both sides here. Sorry.

 

This was the same logic used to try and deflect Spygate. Just because "everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it right nor does that kind of statement reflect truth. The fact is, the Patriots/Brady have been caught in both instances. You can say every other team is doing it but you have no evidence to backup your blanket statements. 

[The Old Crow]

Ok, so you are going to play the everyone does it card in terms of the roids? I will buy that. But let's not kid ourselves, all the QBs manipulate the balls and according to your former QB Blake, all QBs tamper with the balls in terms of pressure. Just this season we had ball tampering with the Vikings and no punishment. So you can't play both sides here. Sorry.

You are really stretching it comparing Blake to Brady. Blake was barely an NFL player, while Brady may have pulled shenanigans in many big game situations. Blake was a nondescript back up, not the best example. He is better known as a Bengal also.

[amfootball]

This was the same logic used to try and deflect Spygate. Just because "everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it right nor does that kind of statement reflect truth. The fact is, the Patriots/Brady have been caught in both instances. You can say every other team is doing it but you have no evidence to backup your blanket statements. 

Ok, then we can't use that about baseball and steroids either, deal?

[Girlzarefanstoo]

The team was fine 20,000 for the towels and told to cut it out ... http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/san-diego-chargers-2012-towel-violation-similar-to-patriots

You are WRONG - They were, they challenged it was reversed.

 

Facts are stubborn things.  

[ColtRider]

Only one Colts ball measured below 12.5, and that's only by one reading. Percentage wise, all the Pats balls lost more pressure than all the Colts balls, which pretty much rules out temperature.

 

Add to that the fact that McNally stole the balls out of the refs' locker room and disappeared into the bathroom with them, and it's pretty easy to conclude that McNally -- the same guy who called himself "the deflator" in May 2014, despite not having anything to do with the preparation of the footballs -- took air out of the footballs after the refs checked them.

Preponderance of evidence. "Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!"

[OffensivelyPC]

Ok, so you are going to play the everyone does it card in terms of the roids? I will buy that. But let's not kid ourselves, all the QBs manipulate the balls and according to your former QB Blake, all QBs tamper with the balls in terms of pressure. Just this season we had ball tampering with the Vikings and no punishment. So you can't play both sides here. Sorry.

That's because they did it out in the open.  The refs said somethign to them and they knocked it off.  The Patriots, on the other hand, took the balls when the officials weren't around to permit it, and then ducked into a closed restroom with no cameras.  Had the Patriots done the same thing instead of attempting to avoid detection at every step of the way, perhaps we're talking about a simple warning - you know, kind of like what happened when the Patriots introduced the wrong balls back in 2004?

[amfootball]

You are really stretching it comparing Blake to Brady. Blake was barely an NFL player, while Brady may have pulled shenanigans in many big game situations. Blake was a nondescript back up, not the best example. He is better known as a Bengal also.

Why? Blake is a former QB who played on multiple teams and said it was rampant. Brady's status as the best QB has nothing to do with this. It has to do with culture and the fact that the league by its own admission in the Wells report really does not think air pressure is a big deal which is why the process is so sloppy and inaccurate and also why there has only even been warnings and/or fines in regards to teams tampering in the history of the sport.

[amfootball]

You are WRONG - They were, they challenged it was reversed.

 

Facts are stubborn things.  

Read the article ...

[The Old Crow]

You are WRONG - They were, they challenged it was reversed.

Facts are stubborn things.

Her usual deflections are not working here. An avalanche of facts has become a Tsunami.

[amfootball]

That's because they did it out in the open.  The refs said somethign to them and they knocked it off.  The Patriots, on the other hand, took the balls when the officials weren't around to permit it, and then ducked into a closed restroom with no cameras.  Had the Patriots done the same thing instead of attempting to avoid detection at every step of the way, perhaps we're talking about a simple warning - you know, kind of like what happened when the Patriots introduced the wrong balls back in 2004?

Yes but that does not prove tampering. The league messed this up when Walt did not gauge the balls pregame after losing track of them. And that is what IMO has made the Wells report so weak. He has nothing but hearsay from Walt and different sets of psi readings ...

[Restored]

Ok, then we can't use that about baseball and steroids either, deal?

 

You are trying to compare an entire era of a sport where multiple players on multiple teams were found to have used PED's compared to one player on one NFL team that has been caught cheating. So yes, I would agree that the two are not comparable.