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dw49

Patriots investigation (merge)

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Stalker?  I'm on a Colts forum fan site because I'm a huge Colts fan!  What a concept!  I don't care about deflategate or the patriots.  I take issue with people like you that come onto a Colts fan site and start poking at people by saying Colts fans started this mess, we're a bunch of whiners, yadda yadda.  You have been poking at some people on this site that have been here for years, are good friends, and are incredibly knowledgeable in football.  I don't have a dog in this hunt.  

 

Not to interject, but if you don't care about deflategate or the patriots, then why are you viewing and contributing to a thread based on...well....deflategate and the patriots?

 

Some of you guys are real good at asking Pats fans why we're here any time something is posted that you don't like...but in a way it seems like you're intentionally entering threads that will anger you just so you can then complain about the existence of their content...

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Not to interject, but if you don't care about deflategate or the patriots, then why are you viewing and contributing to a thread based on...well....deflategate and the patriots?

Some of you guys are real good at asking Pats fans why we're here any time something is posted that you don't like...but in a way it seems like you're intentionally entering threads that will anger you just so you can then complain about the existence of their content...

Actually the some is actually one. And that's me. And I actually participated in this thread. The others followed suit. There's that.

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Stalker?  I'm on a Colts forum fan site because I'm a huge Colts fan!  What a concept!  I don't care about deflategate or the patriots.  I take issue with people like you that come onto a Colts fan site and start poking at people by saying Colts fans started this mess, we're a bunch of whiners, yadda yadda.  You have been poking at some people on this site that have been here for years, are good friends, and are incredibly knowledgeable in football.  I don't have a dog in this hunt.  

:wag:

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Stalker?  I'm on a Colts forum fan site because I'm a huge Colts fan!  What a concept!  I don't care about deflategate or the patriots.  I take issue with people like you that come onto a Colts fan site and start poking at people by saying Colts fans started this mess, we're a bunch of whiners, yadda yadda.  You have been poking at some people on this site that have been here for years, are good friends, and are incredibly knowledgeable in football.  I don't have a dog in this hunt.  

sorry, but I haven't "poked" anybody, blamed Colts fans, or called Colts fans a bunch of whiners. I'm posting in a public forum in a thread devoted to a topic I'm interested in. Unless what I'm doing is against the forum rules, then I don't understand why you and others feel the need to follow me around, ask me why I'm here, take threads off topic, and generally harass me. It's actually kind of immature. If you aren't interested in this topic, then it's real simple...don't reply to this thread. I don't know what else to tell you.

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If its found out that several balls were under inflated significantly (lb or more) and it was done by someone I say you have to do C. Its about culture....Belicheck and Kraft have let a culture of making it acceptable to flirt and sometimes go over the line of sportsmanship and the leagues laws. Culture is set by management...from what they allow, how they lead, and who they hire. The Saints coaches and GM got a season suspension...I would imagine it might be something similar to this. If this was a first infraction for them perhaps some leeway but I think they got that last time. The way the NFL covered up and destroyed all the evidence from the last issue and the slap on the wrist (which I think could be argued would be worse than what was reported here) I think you have to come down hard. If it comes out they did this...the punishment needs to be severe because it no longer is an isolated incident...now its behavior. Thats it...done with this topic until the evidence is released.

You guys are incredible with your wishful thinking. It's not about culture or any of that other garbage you're spewing, it's about what the infraction was and what the penalty is for said infraction. What is this "culture" you speak of anyways? I find it amazing that you still latch on to something that happened 8 years ago and use that as evidence of a pattern of behavior or "culture", and then suggest imposing draconian penalties for something that has already been defined in the rulebook by the competition committee.

If you get a ticket for littering, it doesn't go up because you had a speeding violation 8 years earlier.

You pay the fine for littering. In the wishful minds of Colts fans though, if it's the Pats that are caught littering, they should be hit with a penalty on par with a DUI

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sorry, but I haven't "poked" anybody, blamed Colts fans, or called Colts fans a bunch of whiners. I'm posting in a public forum in a thread devoted to a topic I'm interested in. Unless what I'm doing is against the forum rules, then I don't understand why you and others feel the need to follow me around, ask me why I'm here, take threads off topic, and generally harass me. It's actually kind of immature. If you aren't interested in this topic, then it's real simple...don't reply to this thread. I don't know what else to tell you.

Actually you were berating colts fans that call your team "cheaters" whiners and say stuff like the "tears taste delicious".

Justifiable but that's what you actually did.

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You guys are incredible with your wishful thinking. It's not about culture or any of that other garbage you're spewing, it's about what the infraction was and what the penalty is for said infraction. What is this "culture" you speak of anyways? I find it amazing that you still latch on to something that happened 8 years ago and use that as evidence of a pattern of behavior or "culture", and then suggest imposing draconian penalties for something that has already been defined in the rulebook by the competition committee.

If you get a ticket for littering, it doesn't go up because you had a speeding violation 8 years earlier.

You pay the fine for littering. In the wishful minds of Colts fans though, if it's the Pats that are caught littering, they should be hit with a penalty on par with a DUI

Comparing NFL fines to cops and speeding tickets is like comparing apples to hammers

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Wait so.....if the Patriots are found to have intentionally deflated 11 balls they just lose a pick, but if the Colts are found to have deflated 1 ball they award their 1st round pick to the Patriots? Seems fair.

Are you joking?

Framing another team to take a fall and be punished for something they didn't do goes light years beyond some psi in a football.

Besides the fact that it would be a deplorable, despicable act that only someone without a shred of honor or dignity would do, it goes into a subterfuge/sabotage area which is a FELONY.

unbelievable

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Not to interject, but if you don't care about deflategate or the patriots, then why are you viewing and contributing to a thread based on...well....deflategate and the patriots?

 

Some of you guys are real good at asking Pats fans why we're here any time something is posted that you don't like...but in a way it seems like you're intentionally entering threads that will anger you just so you can then complain about the existence of their content...

I did care about this story as did all NFL fans and I participated in several threads regarding the issue. But after So much time has passed, it's clear the NFL is trying to delay and avoid. Yet several Pats fans continue to come on and continue to call colts fans whiners and exaggerators on their own fan forum.

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They videotaped the Rams Superbowl walkthrough. A walkthrough is a slowed down version of practice.

WRONG!

The Globe had to retract that story and issue an apology, there was never a shred of evidence that the Pats did that, just a * reporter wHo was trying to get his name out there. He no longer works there I believe.

Keep trying, you're on a roll

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Are you joking?

Framing another team to take a fall and be punished for something they didn't do goes light years beyond some psi in a football.

Besides the fact that it would be a deplorable, despicable act that only someone without a shred of honor or dignity would do, it goes into a subterfuge/sabotage area which is a FELONY.

unbelievable

In his other post he said if the Patriots were found to have deflated 11 balls the option was not to give the Colts the pick but just lose the pick. He then said if the Colts were found to have deflated the ball then an option is to give the Patriots their pick. So you are saying it is worse to try to frame a team than it is to actually cheat in a championship game? You think the Patriots shouldn't have to make the Colts whole and give them a pick, rather they just lose it, but if the Colts are found to have deflated the ball and turned it in they should give it to the Patriots? I can agree one team giving a pick to the other but how can you say one should lose a pick if found guilty and the other should give the pick to the other team if found guilty? absolutely moronic

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WRONG!

The Globe had to retract that story and issue an apology, there was never a shred of evidence that the Pats did that, just a * reporter wHo was trying to get his name out there. He no longer works there I believe.

Keep trying, you're on a roll

I'm a troll? Look where you are clownshoes. You are literally quoting posts only I have made in the last few days and are a Pats fan on a colts forum but I'm the troll. ok.

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Comparing NFL fines to cops and speeding tickets is like comparing apples to hammers

 

I think his point was just based on how long ago something was. Like when does the statute of limitations run out on Spygate? It's become quite the talking point lately to say that there is a 'culture of cheating' in New England. I know fans won't forget it, but how long has to pass before it's no longer used to determine the character of a team when trying to build a case against them? 

 

For example...if say, Denver was in the middle of this deflating issue, would fans automatically find them guilty because of what they did against the rules in 1997? I doubt it. As someone mentioned earlier, the Patriots have never lied about it. When they were wrong, they admitted to it and accepted the punishment. I think its incredibly telling how they've reacted to this whole thing, because regardless of how opposing fans perceive them, we as patriots fans hear them every day, we see them in the community, and we know what they are all about. There is no negative culture that Kraft created here...that's just not the way they are.

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I think his point was just based on how long ago something was. Like when does the statute of limitations run out on Spygate? It's become quite the talking point lately to say that there is a 'culture of cheating' in New England. I know fans won't forget it, but how long has to pass before it's no longer used to determine the character of a team when trying to build a case against them? 

 

For example...if say, Denver was in the middle of this deflating issue, would fans automatically find them guilty because of what they did against the rules in 1997? I doubt it. As someone mentioned earlier, the Patriots have never lied about it. When they were wrong, they admitted to it and accepted the punishment. I think its incredibly telling how they've reacted to this whole thing, because regardless of how opposing fans perceive them, we as patriots fans hear them every day, we see them in the community, and we know what they are all about. There is no negative culture that Kraft created here...that's just not the way they are.

the statute of limitations on spygate doesnt run out when the same GM and head coach are still there. simple as that.

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the statute of limitations on spygate doesnt run out when the same GM and head coach are still there. simple as that.

 

Ok...so its all about Belichick and nothing to do with the culture that Kraft creates.

 

Once he retires, the 'Culture of Cheating' that you speak of will automatically be erased.

 

Got it. 

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the statute of limitations on spygate doesnt run out when the same GM and head coach are still there. simple as that.

so...because of Spygate, it's ok to presume the Patriots are guilty in this completely unrelated incident despite there being no evidence, BUT...

 

We can't apply the same pre-judgment to the NFL itself, despite their clear and demonstrated incompetence? The NFL has made it impossible for anybody with an ounce of objectivity to presume that the Patriots are guilty of anything here, short of showing us all a video of Bob Kraft sticking needles into footballs on the sideline. The NFL has zero credibility...zippo. No matter what this report ends up revealing, unless it's hard video evidence of tampering or and admission of guilt by the Patriots, it should be discarded as more nonsense from a league that has perfected that art.

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You guys are incredible with your wishful thinking. It's not about culture or any of that other garbage you're spewing, it's about what the infraction was and what the penalty is for said infraction. What is this "culture" you speak of anyways? I find it amazing that you still latch on to something that happened 8 years ago and use that as evidence of a pattern of behavior or "culture", and then suggest imposing draconian penalties for something that has already been defined in the rulebook by the competition committee.

If you get a ticket for littering, it doesn't go up because you had a speeding violation 8 years earlier.

You pay the fine for littering. In the wishful minds of Colts fans though, if it's the Pats that are caught littering, they should be hit with a penalty on par with a DUI

This isn't the same as you or I in the real world with a traffic ticket. This is a private league...headed by 32 owners that is worth billions of dollars. We saw in the NBA if an owner embarrasses the league or threatens the image of the league they will have the team TAKEN away from them and sold. It is a privalage to be an owner and team in this league....it isn't the same as being a citizen of the US and breaking a law. Its absolutely true that if they follow the letter of the law that it would be a fine and thats it. Personally, I don't think anything more than a fine will happen..but if following what Goodell did to the Saints if wrong doing is proven then they will get worse. Plus this is a repeat offender doing something once again to tarnish the leagues image and if it was proven it was done on purpose it would be a team and owner and coach that didn't learn their lesson from previous run in. Coaches and owners should be held to a higher standard.....I said the same thing of Irsay who I thought should have been suspended for the entire year and had a draft pick taken. You can read my posts on the subject. I am just as harsh on him as I would be on the Pats if this is proven. I think they are owed an apology for the leaks and how it was handled in the media but I'm not one for allowing people who have already had one of the heaviest penalties the league has ever levied to have yet another blatent attempt at gaining a competitive advantage just go by with a fine. Had this been a different staff in NE that would maybe be different but its the same coach and same ownership. This is a league....and 31 other owners are part of it..and their interests should be served in this. They are being directly affected by NE's actions just as we see with other incidents. I may be in the minority but I think owners, gms, coaches should be held to a higher standard than players. They set the example and are intrusted as the face of the league and franchises. Whether its DUIs, domestic violence, or cheating/tampering I would hold them to a much harsher standard....just my simple opinion. Again I don't have the evidence and until then I'm not going to convict them of anything....but if found to be true...drop the hammer. If its my team...drop the hammer...I still think the Colts should have lost a 2nd rd draft pick for Irsays run in with the law. It doesn't hurt an owner at all to be suspended or pay a fine...but hurt his team on the field and he and everyone in the organization will do more to prevent things from happening again. 

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Ok...so its all about Belichick and nothing to do with the culture that Kraft creates.

 

Once he retires, the 'Culture of Cheating' that you speak of will automatically be erased.

 

Got it. 

Not at all, but if you are talking about statutes of limitations due to past sins then yes, that will be erased.

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At this point I don't know what further constructive conversation can be had from this issue until the report comes out. As it is its a lot of speculation and opinions. I will say that while I always say its just football and not a big deal I do like the life lessons and learning young people can gain from competitive sports. When cheating and misconduct occurs it makes me cringe. Whether it be this "supposed" scandal or the little leaguers or anywhere in between what we are showing young people matters. I'm going to do my best to stay out of these threads. Just so little actual information and way to much speculation and sensativity on both sides.

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am......you 'done gone' bat **** crazy on us these days.  Really...what happened?

Hello my friend. These days are bat crazy. When did air in footballs become a revolution? I have never wished so hard that I went to college for physics instead of comms but then again I may be even more compromised up there if that was the case. :humble:

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What this "investigation" has uncovered and will continue to undercover is the gross underbelly of the NFL and its game operations as it pertains to ball handling or should I say lack of ball handling? What is inherent in this type of "investigation" is the NFL being exposed as IF the Pats have or had done anything to tamper with the balls why didn't the league catch it? Just how easy is it to tamper with balls given how many QBs have come out and said they doctor the balls? All of this from the get go was going to point back to the league and of course now we learn that the rogue suspect they have been looking for from the Pats exists in their official pool and had to be fired because of it. This is as about as ugly as it can get and could get uglier.

Why do you keep calling it an "'investigation'"?

It is an investigation. No quotes required. That is fact not verbatim.

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Are you joking?

Framing another team to take a fall and be punished for something they didn't do goes light years beyond some psi in a football.

Besides the fact that it would be a deplorable, despicable act that only someone without a shred of honor or dignity would do, it goes into a subterfuge/sabotage area which is a FELONY.

unbelievable

You're seriously saying the Colts framed the Patriots?

You're ridiculous.

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Why do you keep calling it an "'investigation'"?

It is an investigation. No quotes required. That is fact not verbatim.

When the NFL investigates itself in a case they mishandled from day one and finds they did nothing wrong than every investigation after that they conduct becomes an "investigation."

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They're the only reason I dislike that organization.

Kraft is very slimey.

Wow, Kraft is recognized around the league as a class act and someone who genuinely cares about the league as a whole and has been an instrumental piece in resolving CBA issues and expanding the advertising contracts with the networks.

Your own Jeff Saturday said Kraft was a great man and hugged him in a press conference that announced the new CBA had been reached, and credited his efforts with getting the deal done.

You're way off base to say that Kraft is slime when everything he's done has been the opposite.

maybe you should look at your owner before making such defamatory remarks about a great man.

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Mod Note: 

Stop with the personal attacks

There are several here who could have warnings but letting it go this time. You know who you are.

 

Furthermore stop with the "why are you here" comments. Everyone is welcome here within the rules. Period.

 

If you can't reply to a post in a civil debating way then don't reply.  If you don't like someone skip over the post. It's not that hard.

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SPEAK ENGLISH. that's a great theory, I bet you think there are tons of singles in your area that are dying to meet you too.

As much as I despise your posts, that was pretty funny

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Can we all get away from one aspect of these discussions? 
 

If draft picks are taken away from an NFL team as part of a penalty/punishment, they are never "awarded" to another team. Even if the Patriots are found 100% guilty, the Colts will not just be given what would have been NE's first rounder (or any other pick).  

 

At least there is no precedent for it. Teams have "traded" picks with other teams to sign coaches who were under contract or whatnot, but that's a different situation. 

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We made it clear a month ago tampering wouldn't be just a 20,000 fine in this situation, it may be limited to but that's not the only one. Stop making nonsense up. Second offenses surely count for more.

Lol second offense? IF (key word) they are guilty of this, it would be their first offense.

20 years from now are you going to be clinging to spygate still? Every time a Pats player or coach changes lanes without using their blinker are you going to be crying for jail time "because spygate!"

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Can we all get away from one aspect of these discussions?

If draft picks are taken away from an NFL team as part of a penalty/punishment, they are never "awarded" to another team. Even if the Patriots are found 100% guilty, the Colts will not just be given what would have been NE's first rounder (or any other pick).

At least there is no precedent for it. Teams have "traded" picks with other teams to sign coaches who were under contract or whatnot, but that's a different situation.

It's only wishful thinking. It's like those nba trades when you want to give your garbage assets for another team's good asset.

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In his other post he said if the Patriots were found to have deflated 11 balls the option was not to give the Colts the pick but just lose the pick. He then said if the Colts were found to have deflated the ball then an option is to give the Patriots their pick. So you are saying it is worse to try to frame a team than it is to actually cheat in a championship game? You think the Patriots shouldn't have to make the Colts whole and give them a pick, rather they just lose it, but if the Colts are found to have deflated the ball and turned it in they should give it to the Patriots? I can agree one team giving a pick to the other but how can you say one should lose a pick if found guilty and the other should give the pick to the other team if found guilty? absolutely moronic

Firstly, the people on this forum are not qualified to measure punishments that should be levied as it pertains to violations of the NFL rulebook. There is an entire committee of qualified professionals that are paid to do that.

The people on this forum are suggesting penalties that they personally would like to see because it would severely hurt the team that is constantly in their way of a SB birth, it's wishful thinking and nothing more.

Secondly, falsely accusing or framing someone would not be weighed against what the fine would be for the team that they were trying to frame if they succeeded, it's treated as its own thing and is weighted based on other factors.

It's also widely recognized as a deplorable act

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I'm a troll? Look where you are clownshoes. You are literally quoting posts only I have made in the last few days and are a Pats fan on a colts forum but I'm the troll. ok.

You might want to reread my post that you replied to

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Can we all get away from one aspect of these discussions? 

 

If draft picks are taken away from an NFL team as part of a penalty/punishment, they are never "awarded" to another team. Even if the Patriots are found 100% guilty, the Colts will not just be given what would have been NE's first rounder (or any other pick).  

 

At least there is no precedent for it. Teams have "traded" picks with other teams to sign coaches who were under contract or whatnot, but that's a different situation. 

There is no precedent, it's still crazy to me this is the first time the possibility ever came up in the history of the game knowing how many bad weather games are played each year. That being said, you would think if the Patriots were found to have done that, something has to be done to make the Colts "whole" despite the lopsided score. Grigson just said at his presser that they alerted the league BEFORE the game, maybe the league was just like "whatever" and didn't log the psi but then the interception kind of forced them to look at it at the half. Pagano said the idea the colts deflated one of the balls is "ludicrous".

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Firstly, the people on this forum are not qualified to measure punishments that should be levied as it pertains to violations of the NFL rulebook. There is an entire committee of qualified professionals that are paid to do that.

The people on this forum are suggesting penalties that they personally would like to see because it would severely hurt the team that is constantly in their way of a SB birth, it's wishful thinking and nothing more.

Secondly, falsely accusing or framing someone would not be weighed against what the fine would be for the team that they were trying to frame if they succeeded, it's treated as its own thing and is weighted based on other factors.

It's also widely recognized as a deplorable act

Again - saying if one team is wrong and listing an option as they lose a pick and saying if the other team is wrong and listing an option as they lose a pick and give it to the other team is not very equal considering we dont have the qualifications to levy punishment.

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You're seriously saying the Colts framed the Patriots?

You're ridiculous.

I'm not going to respond to you anymore if you can't keep up with the conversation.

I didn't say that they framed the Pats, I was responding to a poster that said, in a hypothetical scenario, if the Colts were guilty of framing them for this that their punishment should be the same as what the Patriots would be if they were guilty of doing it.

That's not the case, because framing someone is its own violation in and of itself, and one that is very, very sinister in nature.

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Again - saying if one team is wrong and listing an option as they lose a pick and saying if the other team is wrong and listing an option as they lose a pick and give it to the other team is not very equal considering we dont have the qualifications to levy punishment.

Regardless of what scale the punishments are on, the act of framing would be weighed more heavily over the act that they were trying to frame them with

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Wow, Kraft is recognized around the league as a class act and someone who genuinely cares about the league as a whole and has been an instrumental piece in resolving CBA issues and expanding the advertising contracts with the networks.

Your own Jeff Saturday said Kraft was a great man and hugged him in a press conference that announced the new CBA had been reached, and credited his efforts with getting the deal done.

You're way off base to say that Kraft is slime when everything he's done has been the opposite.

maybe you should look at your owner before making such defamatory remarks about a great man.

Really?

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That's nice.

"There are people who think Mike Kensil has it out for Bill Belichick and there are people who believe they can prove it."

Schefter on D&C minutes ago

 

 

Lol, I thought you said all of this wasn't newsworthy? smh

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