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dw49

Patriots investigation (merge)

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I think they have a vault where there are tanks of Bill Parcell's flatulence stored...they inflate the balls with it, then they magically deflate.

In all seriousness, I believe there are only 2 realistic possibilities as to what happened here:

1) Nothing whatsoever

2) They figured out some way to treat the balls such that they'd pass the pre-game inspection and then soften up as the game went on.

I have said from day 1 (and I believe it now more than ever) that I can't under any circumstances believe that they would be dumb enough to tamper with the balls after the refs had approved them by sticking a needle in them to de-pressurize them. I think that is a more outlandish theory than the "Colts deflated the one ball" theory. I can't see any way that somebody could get away with sticking a needle in a ball (let alone 11 of them) on the sidelines without getting caught on camera doing it.

So what does that leave us with? Neither 1 or 2 above is illegal. You can do whatever you want to the balls as long as the refs measure them within the range and then you don't tamper with them.

There is a 3rd possibility. McNally, who is elderly I guess, let the air out in the 98 seconds that he was in the bathroom.

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That's about the same conclusion I have and tend to think it's #2. I also don't think the NFL expected teams to kick the urine of of balls like BB explained. But I agree that it at least extremely likely that there is no rule violation here. In fact it might ben explain why you had such a variance in NE balls. 

It would not in any way surprise me to learn that they figured out a way to do this, determined that what they were doing wasn't prohibited by rule, and they went ahead and did it. It's never been noticed before because they've never re-checked balls at halftime before. I get why fans of other teams get angry over this stuff, if that's in fact what happened....because it comes off like the smartest kid in school who gets all A's already figuring out an alternative way to answer a test question that is technically correct but not necessarily in the spirit of the question that was asked. The anger comes in part from the fact that he got away with something in your eyes, but also in the fact that he thought about it first before you did.

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*sigh*

Because it was handed to him by an NFL official, who has since been fired . This has been covered ad nauseum.

But he knew the rules for the balls. Why give them one that isn't marked? Why didn't he say, "Umm, thanks for the ball but they won't use it, because it's not a K ball.". Or "Hey what're you trying to pull here? This isn't an official ball."

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*sigh*

How come every time something else is covered ad nauseum that looks bad for your team you refuse to believe it?

Are you kidding me? Andre asked a question that was literally answered hours after the McNally story broke.

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But he knew the rules for the balls. Why give them one that isn't marked? Why didn't he say, "Umm, thanks for the ball but they won't use it, because it's not a K ball.". Or "Hey what're you trying to pull here? This isn't an official ball."

When a league official hands him a ball to use, why would he even suspect it's not a legit ball? It's not his job to check that - it's the refs.

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NFL rule- each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of

the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all

stadiums.

 

Saw this on Snopes... a different spin-

 

"After the officials found that the majority of the balls used in the first half were below the acceptable PSI as mandated by the NFL, the backup balls were brought in. According to the source, the backup balls were tested and found to be at the correct levels, and subsequently put into play — just barely in time, as the second half already had started by the time the testing was completed. This is why the officials stopped play and swapped out the kicking ball on the first play from scrimmage of the second half."

 

So, according to this, the Pats 12 primary balls were approved along with the 12 backup balls before the game, yet at halftime, only the Pats 12 backup balls remained within spec.  Interesting take.

 

I hear what you are saying, but it is very difficult to come to a conclusion as we do not have all of the facts.  What makes matter worst is that many of the leaks contradict each other, so it makes what we know less than credible.  

 

As for the rule I hear you also on this front.  It was my understanding that the 12 balls in play in the first half were inspected, allegedly below inflation spec, reinflated and sent back into the second half.  I also heard/read that this was likely the reason for the delay/mixup at the start of the second half due to the testing and reinfaltion time was taken so the ball boy was not ready to get the balls in play as he was running on to the field with the bag of the reinflated balls.    So it is my understanding that the back up balls where never used by the NFL, well asked to be used by the NFL.

 

Again until we get all of the data it is tough to come to a conclusion on the matter, well we really can't.

 

This is not a complete list but any of these factors are still in play

 

What was the exact PSI of all of the balls tested pregame, halftime and at the end of the game

Where were the balls tested and in what conditions, how long did the balls sit in any ambient condition prior to testing

Was there anything either the colts did or the pats did pregame that might effect the PSI of the balls after they were inspected

Does leather shrink or expand when wet.

And so on.

 

Trouble is without one base line starting point, no mid point or end point, we are just kind of grasping as straws.

 

I will say regarding the ideal gas law and that one would loose about 0.5 PSI going from 72 degrees to 50 degrees.  Beyond this our conclusion are based on things we do not have all of the data.

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You can think what you want, until then you could be on a Sox forum celebrating the Moncada signing.

Great post. We are doing the dance of joy here ... in the snow.

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It would not in any way surprise me to learn that they figured out a way to do this, determined that what they were doing wasn't prohibited by rule, and they went ahead and did it. It's never been noticed before because they've never re-checked balls at halftime before. I get why fans of other teams get angry over this stuff, if that's in fact what happened....because it comes off like the smartest kid in school who gets all A's already figuring out an alternative way to answer a test question that is technically correct but not necessarily in the spirit of the question that was asked. The anger comes in part from the fact that he got away with something in your eyes, but also in the fact that he thought about it first before you did.

 

 

That would be a matter of opinion if they broke rules or not. Let's just for giggles say the ball boy was given balls inflated to 12.5 and was told to kick the poop out of them and keep testing until the PSI measured 13.5 . It doesn't take a genius to figure out what the purpose of temporarily inflating the balls would be for. Then he came clean and blew them in. That could be viewed as a violation of rules. But as I write this , I would love to ask BB a question. Its been stated that they work on these balls all week long , rubbing , brushing , messaging .. etc etc. Bill says they found that this increases the PSI a pound and this at least "appears" to be one of the ways they are trying to explain Pat balls "possibly" (we'll at some point hear just how deflated some of these balls were) deflating more then the Colt's balls. My question is this. Wouldn't this temporary "heating up " of the balls only last a short period of time. It would be however long it took the molecules to cool back down to the probably 70% the air was that inflated the footballs. So seems crazy to think that they could rub these footballs just before game time to increase the PSI and then it drops out during that first hour. The more I think of it this sounds like BB may have stuck his foot in his mouth with this one. What is the protocol here ? You inflate balls to 12.5 and then rub them up ? This appears really crazy the more I think of it. You start rubbing these balls when ? When does this 1 PSI from the rubbing occur ? How long does it take for that PSI increase to go away ? 

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Great post. We are doing the dance of joy here ... in the snow.

 You have mentioned the rubbing of the balls as the trump card in expelling how all of the Pat balls end up out and none of the Colt balls being out. Read my post 476 and tell me what you think 

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That would be a matter of opinion if they broke rules or not. Let's just for giggles say the ball boy was given balls inflated to 12.5 and was told to kick the poop out of them and keep testing until the PSI measured 13.5 . It doesn't take a genius to figure out what the purpose of temporarily inflating the balls would be for. Then he came clean and blew them in. That could be viewed as a violation of rules. But as I write this , I would love to ask BB a question. Its been stated that they work on these balls all week long , rubbing , brushing , messaging .. etc etc. Bill says they found that this increases the PSI a pound and this at least "appears" to be one of the ways they are trying to explain Pat balls "possibly" (we'll at some point hear just how deflated some of these balls were) deflating more then the Colt's balls. My question is this. Wouldn't this temporary "heating up " of the balls only last a short period of time. It would be however long it took the molecules to cool back down to the probably 70% the air was that inflated the footballs. So seems crazy to think that they could rub these footballs just before game time to increase the PSI and then it drops out during that first hour. The more I think of it this sounds like BB may have stuck his foot in his mouth with this one. What is the protocol here ? You inflate balls to 12.5 and then rub them up ? This appears really crazy the more I think of it. You start rubbing these balls when ? When does this 1 PSI from the rubbing occur ? How long does it take for that PSI increase to go away ? 

Yes, I agree. The ball prep seems to be a stretch. First of all, leather does not conduct heat well so you would have to be doing some real vigorous rubbing and Bill emphatically said heaters would not used. So were all 12 balls being rubbed simultaneously right before inflation? That is the only plausible way that this one psi could happen. Unless they were being rubbed outside and then brought inside for inflation. I think a better explanation may be the integrity of the leather being compromised from the prep causing the ball to lose air especially in poor weather conditions. Given the QBs can do whatever they want to these balls that would make more sense than this ball prep explanation.

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 You have mentioned the rubbing of the balls as the trump card in expelling how all of the Pat balls end up out and none of the Colt balls being out. Read my post 476 and tell me what you think 

It is far from a trump card but that was the reason Bill gave to explain it.

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Yes, I agree. The ball prep seems to be a stretch. First of all, leather does not conduct heat well so you would have to be doing some real vigorous rubbing and Bill emphatically said heaters would not used. So were all 12 balls being rubbed simultaneously right before inflation? That is the only plausible way that this one psi could happen. Unless they were being rubbed outside and then brought inside for inflation. I think a better explanation may be the integrity of the leather being compromised from the prep causing the ball to lose air especially in poor weather conditions. Given the QBs can do whatever they want to these balls that would make more sense than this ball prep explanation.

 

Not sure if I ever posted but.. yeah ... that was my thinking too. A damaged ball would also make more sense to why only one ball (if this turns out to be the case) was measured at 2LBs under. 

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Yes, I agree. The ball prep seems to be a stretch. First of all, leather does not conduct heat well so you would have to be doing some real vigorous rubbing and Bill emphatically said heaters would not used. So were all 12 balls being rubbed simultaneously right before inflation? That is the only plausible way that this one psi could happen. Unless they were being rubbed outside and then brought inside for inflation. I think a better explanation may be the integrity of the leather being compromised from the prep causing the ball to lose air especially in poor weather conditions. Given the QBs can do whatever they want to these balls that would make more sense than this ball prep explanation.

Technically, Bill said emphatically that they did not inflate the balls in a heated environment, such as a sauna (because that IS illegal). But that doesn't preclude (in my mind) using hot air to inflate the balls or heck - even using a different gas to inflate the balls (I don't even know if there is a type of gas that would drop more quickly or not)....in other words, IF they did *something*, I would almost bet my house that whatever it was, it was technically within the rules (or not specifically prohibited by the rules).

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Technically, Bill said emphatically that they did not inflate the balls in a heated environment, such as a sauna (because that IS illegal). But that doesn't preclude (in my mind) using hot air to inflate the balls or heck - even using a different gas to inflate the balls (I don't even know if there is a type of gas that would drop more quickly or not)....in other words, IF they did *something*, I would almost bet my house that whatever it was, it was technically within the rules (or not specifically prohibited by the rules).

1 psi is such a small amount of air pressure though. This is why I have a tough time believing they were tampered with. I really don't think 1 psi buys you much of anything which was proved in the second half when the offense scored more points with balls inflated higher. I think if the Pats are guilty of anything it is like Bill said where they should have inflated the balls higher than 12.5 to begin with so they would not fall out of compliance during the game. As with everything though, the devil is in the details. We shall see what Wells uncovers ...

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1 psi is such a small amount of air pressure though. This is why I have a tough time believing they were tampered with. I really don't think 1 psi buys you much of anything which was proved in the second half when the offense scored more points with balls inflated higher. I think if the Pats are guilty of anything it is like Bill said where they should have inflated the balls higher than 12.5 to begin with so they would not fall out of compliance during the game. As with everything though, the devil is in the details. We shall see what Wells uncovers ...

I agree - my money is on nothing going on here. This doesn't seem like a risk they'd intentionally take given the marginal potential gain...and I emphatically don't believe that anybody stuck a needle in a bunch of balls after the refs approved them. That makes zero sense. So that's about the only thing I can say with confidence that Wells will NOT find.

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A lot of reports are saying only one ball was 2psi under. Rapaport said 6-8 balls were at around 1psi to just a tick under. The 2-4 balls that aren't mentioned would seem to be between 1psi and 2psi, or Rapaport would have included them when he mentioned the other 6-8 balls.

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A lot of reports are saying only one ball was 2psi under. Rapaport said 6-8 balls were at around 1psi to just a tick under. The 2-4 balls that aren't mentioned would seem to be between 1psi and 2psi, or Rapaport would have included them when he mentioned the other 6-8 balls.

Right. If true, such a variance in air pressure among the 12 balls to me would indicate that the integrity of some of the footballs were most likely compromised due to the ball prep and weather conditions during the game. If the balls were tampered with, I would think all of them would be around the same range under. Or at least be at 2 psi under and further or 1 psi and further. You would not have some at a tick under, some under 1 and then one under 2.

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I agree - my money is on nothing going on here. This doesn't seem like a risk they'd intentionally take given the marginal potential gain...and I emphatically don't believe that anybody stuck a needle in a bunch of balls after the refs approved them. That makes zero sense. So that's about the only thing I can say with confidence that Wells will NOT find.

Cheating makes sense to a cheater. I mean why do athletes start taking steroids after starting careers in pro sports. They want to be acknowledged as the best. So while cheating makes no sense to you, I've seen it too many times in pro sports to write it off as being nonsensical.

Let's also be real here. It's your favorite team...You Do Not want this to be true. You should reevaluate based on that, if it's possible. Think about it, most of America thinks they did it.

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A lot of reports are saying only one ball was 2psi under. Rapaport said 6-8 balls were at around 1psi to just a tick under. The 2-4 balls that aren't mentioned would seem to be between 1psi and 2psi, or Rapaport would have included them when he mentioned the other 6-8 balls.

If PSI in the ball makes such a difference, then wouldn't it make less sense for all the balls to be at different levels of inflation? Wouldn't it make more sense for every ball to feel the same, rather than have 12 balls, all at different levels?

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Right. If true, such a variance in air pressure among the 12 balls to me would indicate that the integrity of some of the footballs were most likely compromised due to the ball prep and weather conditions during the game. If the balls were tampered with, I would think all of them would be around the same range under. Or at least be at 2 psi under and further or 1 psi and further. You would not have some at a tick under, some under 1 and then one under 2.

Its just as likely the cheater wanted to get out of the bathroom in under 100 seconds. He did with 2 seconds to spare. The 3-4 that were just a tick under, he would just use those last.

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If PSI in the ball makes such a difference, then wouldn't it make less sense for all the balls to be at different levels of inflation? Wouldn't it make more sense for every ball to feel the same, rather than have 12 balls, all at different levels?

They were in a time crunch....They didn't want to have a video where it seemed like the ball boy was taking a number 2.

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Cheating makes sense to a cheater. I mean why do athletes start taking steroids after starting careers in pro sports. They want to be acknowledged as the best. So while cheating makes no sense to you, I've seen it too many times in pro sports to write it off as being nonsensical.

Let's also be real here. It's your favorite team...You Do Not want this to be true. You should reevaluate based on that, if it's possible. Think about it, most of America thinks they did it.

Yes, you are right. Even if Wells report completely exonerates the Pats, it won't matter. They have been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

 

But to be honest, as a fan of the team, it really does not bother me. Much like spygate, the Pats have proven without a shadow of the doubt that they have been the best franchise in football for the past 15 years and whatever advantage they got from the signal taping has been obliterated with their success post spygate that now includes another Lombardi which was the last thing anyone could hang on them from that infraction as something they still needed to prove.

 

To me, ball inflation is not even on the map in terms of cheating. It is a games manual violation that carries a $25k fine which means the league sees it as less of an issue than hitting a player late or not speaking to the media. And to boot, underinflated balls can be a disadvantage in terms of ball velocity and distance which is why Aaron Rodgers said about half the QBs in the league like an underinflated ball vs an overinflated one. I would think it this ball pressure had any real effect than Rodgers would also be at 12.5 but he likes his over 13.5 if he can get away with it. So what are we really talking about with this anyways? Really not much of anything in the grand scheme IMO.

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They were in a time crunch....They didn't want to have a video where it seemed like the ball boy was taking a number 2.

That wasn't my question...how is it an advantage for a QB to have 12 balls, all different feels? Wouldn't the QB want every ball to feel the same?

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Yes, you are right. Even if Wells report completely exonerates the Pats, it won't matter. They have been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

 

But to be honest, as a fan of the team, it really does not bother me. Much like spygate, the Pats have proven without a shadow of the doubt that they have been the best franchise in football for the past 15 years and whatever advantage they got from the signal taping has been obliterated with their success post spygate that now includes another Lombardi which was the last thing anyone could hang on them from that infraction as something they still needed to prove.

 

To me, ball inflation is not even on the map in terms of cheating. It is a games manual violation that carries a $25k fine which means the league sees it as less of an issue than hitting a player late or not speaking to the media. And to boot, underinflated balls can be a disadvantage in terms of ball velocity and distance which is why Aaron Rodgers said about half the QBs in the league like an underinflated ball vs an overinflated one. I would think it this ball pressure had any real effect than Rodgers would also be at 12.5 but he likes his over 13.5 if he can get away with it. So what are we really talking about with this anyways? Really not much of anything in the grand scheme IMO.

 

 

But to be honest, as a fan of the team, it really does not bother me.

 

 

And out of all that & many days & posts . Finally a Patriots fan tells us what is obvious to anyone . 

 

Except they are here in mass claiming to be the victims in this instance & if there guilty so what everyone does it they claim .

 

Where there is smoke there is fire & there seems to be alot of Patriot apologists & or flat out blind mice for a story about nothing .

 

Once again enjoy your Lombardi  however you got there you did win ,,,

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That wasn't my question...how is it an advantage for a QB to have 12 balls, all different feels? Wouldn't the QB want every ball to feel the same?

 

At least 2 of them .

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I'm so put off by the pats being cheaters, I won't even support Gillette anymore since they own their stadium. I'm joining dollar shave club any never buying anything from that over priced company again. 

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And out of all that & many days & posts . Finally a Patriots fan tells us what is obvious to anyone . 

 

Except they are here in mass claiming to be the victims in this instance & if there guilty so what everyone does it they claim .

 

Where there is smoke there is fire & there seems to be alot of Patriot apologists & or flat out blind mice for a story about nothing .

 

Once again enjoy your Lombardi  however you got there you did win ,,,

Believe me, we are enjoying it. Except for these commemorative magazines that are now almost $10 bucks. I keep buying them though so I guess no price is too high when your team wins. :)

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I agree - my money is on nothing going on here. This doesn't seem like a risk they'd intentionally take given the marginal potential gain...and I emphatically don't believe that anybody stuck a needle in a bunch of balls after the refs approved them. That makes zero sense. So that's about the only thing I can say with confidence that Wells will NOT find.

How does it make zero sense? A guy goes to the bathroom with the balls despite being old, can stick a needle in. Makes little sense, but saying it makes no sense? Come on. Obviously Wells won't find it, it's in the bathroom where it can't be found.

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Yes, you are right. Even if Wells report completely exonerates the Pats, it won't matter. They have been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

 

But to be honest, as a fan of the team, it really does not bother me. Much like spygate, the Pats have proven without a shadow of the doubt that they have been the best franchise in football for the past 15 years and whatever advantage they got from the signal taping has been obliterated with their success post spygate that now includes another Lombardi which was the last thing anyone could hang on them from that infraction as something they still needed to prove.

 

To me, ball inflation is not even on the map in terms of cheating. It is a games manual violation that carries a $25k fine which means the league sees it as less of an issue than hitting a player late or not speaking to the media. And to boot, underinflated balls can be a disadvantage in terms of ball velocity and distance which is why Aaron Rodgers said about half the QBs in the league like an underinflated ball vs an overinflated one. I would think it this ball pressure had any real effect than Rodgers would also be at 12.5 but he likes his over 13.5 if he can get away with it. So what are we really talking about with this anyways? Really not much of anything in the grand scheme IMO.

Then why have you been here for a month coming up with every excuse since the mort report came out to clear their name to people who's opinions you won't change? Just wondering. Also - it's not a 25K fine, that can be part of it, as everyone has told Jerod Mayo for the past month when he tries to change facts.

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How does it make zero sense? A guy goes to the bathroom with the balls despite being old, can stick a needle in. Makes little sense, but saying it makes no sense? Come on. Obviously Wells won't find it, it's in the bathroom where it can't be found.

Sense ? 

 

Common sense is not so common  IMO

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I'm so put off by the pats being cheaters, I won't even support Gillette anymore since they own their stadium. I'm joining dollar shave club any never buying anything from that over priced company again. 

I don't buy Gillette Razors or Kraft cheese. Too expensive. Dollar Shave Club and Sargento here...

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Yes, you are right. Even if Wells report completely exonerates the Pats, it won't matter. They have been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

 

But to be honest, as a fan of the team, it really does not bother me. Much like spygate, the Pats have proven without a shadow of the doubt that they have been the best franchise in football for the past 15 years and whatever advantage they got from the signal taping has been obliterated with their success post spygate that now includes another Lombardi which was the last thing anyone could hang on them from that infraction as something they still needed to prove.

 

To me, ball inflation is not even on the map in terms of cheating. It is a games manual violation that carries a $25k fine which means the league sees it as less of an issue than hitting a player late or not speaking to the media. And to boot, underinflated balls can be a disadvantage in terms of ball velocity and distance which is why Aaron Rodgers said about half the QBs in the league like an underinflated ball vs an overinflated one. I would think it this ball pressure had any real effect than Rodgers would also be at 12.5 but he likes his over 13.5 if he can get away with it. So what are we really talking about with this anyways? Really not much of anything in the grand scheme IMO.

 

Let me ask you this, and I'm not trying to bait you. If it really doesn't bother you, why are you so interested in defending them and explaining why you don't view it as cheating? If pats fans truly don't care about how the public views them, why are they spending so much time defending them, arguing that they haven't "cheated", etc.

Because, usually people don't argue about things they don't care about.

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Then why have you been here for a month coming up with every excuse since the mort report came out to clear their name to people who's opinions you won't change? Just wondering. Also - it's not a 25K fine, that can be part of it, as everyone has told Jerod Mayo for the past month when he tries to change facts.

I have not made excuses. I have maintained all along that they could be guilty of tampering. I have just been commenting on the reports that have come out over the last month some of which paint them as guilty, some of which show they may be innocent. But ball tampering just does not get me that riled up in general whether it was the Pats or any other team.

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Let me ask you this, and I'm not trying to bait you. If it really doesn't bother you, why are you so interested in defending them and explaining why you don't view it as cheating? If pats fans truly don't care about how the public views them, why are they spending so much time defending them, arguing that they haven't "cheated", etc.

Because, usually people don't argue about things they don't care about.

I have not argued that they didn't cheat. We simply don't know. Some reports show them as guilty others as innocent. I just don't view ball tampering as earth shattering and neither does the league given its paltry penalty for doing it.

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I have not argued that they didn't cheat. We simply don't know. Some reports show them as guilty others as innocent. I just don't view ball tampering as earth shattering and neither does the league given its paltry penalty for doing it.

Alrighty so we can expect to see you in the other threads until this one pans out?

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I have not argued that they didn't cheat. We simply don't know. Some reports show them as guilty others as innocent. I just don't view ball tampering as earth shattering and neither does the league given its paltry penalty for doing it.

 

I meant pats fans in general, hence "they" for the cheating part. So, let me rephrase it, if you specifically don't view ball tampering as "earth shattering" and none of this "bothers you", why so much effort to explain it? I don't mean that to sound harsh. I just don't buy that the fans nor the players aren't bothered by this. Why do much explaining from fans and the organization and players if none of it bothers them?

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How does it make zero sense? A guy goes to the bathroom with the balls despite being old, can stick a needle in. Makes little sense, but saying it makes no sense? Come on. Obviously Wells won't find it, it's in the bathroom where it can't be found.

 

it makes zero sense to me because I just think that if you went to a QB before a game and said "here are your 2 choices: 1) 12 game balls, all inflated to the exact same level within the legal range and they won't change at all during the game, or 2) 12 game balls all at various/random levels of inflation within a 2lb range....my guess is that every QB in the league would choose the 12 balls that are all the same. I would think throwing 12 different balls would be tougher.

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Then why have you been here for a month coming up with every excuse since the mort report came out to clear their name to people who's opinions you won't change? Just wondering. Also - it's not a 25K fine, that can be part of it, as everyone has told Jerod Mayo for the past month when he tries to change facts.

 

Let me ask you this, and I'm not trying to bait you. If it really doesn't bother you, why are you so interested in defending them and explaining why you don't view it as cheating? If pats fans truly don't care about how the public views them, why are they spending so much time defending them, arguing that they haven't "cheated", etc.

Because, usually people don't argue about things they don't care about.

 

 

You guys do realize that if this was your team, you would be doing the same exact thing. Right? 

 

Just check the Indy forum anytime one of your guys gets arrested. 

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Posted · Hidden by Superman, February 23, 2015 - request
Hidden by Superman, February 23, 2015 - request

You guys do realize that if this was your team, you would be doing the same exact thing. Right?

Just check the Indy forum anytime one of your guys gets arrested.

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You guys do realize that if this was your team, you would be doing the same exact thing. Right? 

 

Just check the Indy forum anytime one of your guys gets arrested. 

But we wouldn't be on another team's forum defending them til we are blue in the face is the point here...

 

Also - nobody is defending or has sympathy for our own players getting arrested, they are all doing stupid things and should face the consequences.

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