Patriots investigation (merge)

[dw49]

circumstantial evidence.....

 

 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/06/01/prosecutors-make-case-against-scott-peterson/

[AndreRison]

by the way...I am laughing out loud at the "heart on the line" comment. I couldn't care less now that the trophy is in Foxboro. But I have a sneaking suspicion that I DO know someone whose heart may be hurting if this Wells report is as uneventful as most people believe it will be.

C'mon. Don't pretend you don't care. You wouldn't post if you didn't care. I care but it didn't break my heart when I heard they were cheating, and I won't be heartbroken if they are proved innocent. I would however stop watching NFL if I found out Andrew Luck and the Colts cheated. I stopped watching Baseball because of all the cheating. It sucks to see milestones like Hank Aaron's home run record fall to a guy like Bonds. When I was a kid I loved baseball I loved watching the Oakland A's. But they were cheaters. That didn't break my heart but it did end my love of Baseball. That is a fact.

There are a lot of people that say if they cheated it's no big deal. Take $25'000 and be done with it. But most hardcore sports fans, not the casual fan, but the fans that have game day rituals and stuff like that, they won't give the Patriots a pass. So pretend you don't care but I know you do, or you wouldn't be here day in and day out defending them.

[AndreRison]

If we're talking about circumstantial evidence, well then wouldn't the fact that the sole 'enough to be considered odd' under inflated ball was the one that the Colts had in their possession qualify as such? And then when taking other things into consideration like:

1. The Colts hate the Patriots.

2. The Colts wanted the NFL to look into deflated footballs.

3. The Colts higher ups have conflicting stories about their knowledge of it.

See? One could connect those dots too as long as we're just speculating. Look, do I think the colts had anything to do with this? Of course not...that's crazy. But circumstantial evidence is not proof, and as far as we know, the fact is that there is nothing at this point that confirms any of the speculative claims that people have been making.

You claim yourself it's crazy the Colts set the Patriots up. The reason that's crazy is because it doesn't equate. The NFL said there were multiple under inflated balls. They were all Patriot balls. So if the Colts deflated a ball, the Patriots still had under inflated balls. That doesn't add up. Why assume the Colts deflated any of them?

The biggest fact to come out was straight from the NFL...The Patriots were playing with multiple under inflated football's.

[dynasty13]

The fact that NE had 12 under inflated footballs is way more powerful than saying the Colts don't like the Pats.

We don't know for sure if the ball that came from the Colt sideline was the only seriously inflated one.

The Colts would look very stupid if the only defaulted ball came after they had it on their sideline. That in itself is really more evidence against the Pats. The Colts knew their footballs were under inflated and all 12 were.

The fact that Pagano said he didn't know beforehand really is no proof of guilt.

Your assertion that circumstantial evidence is not proof is not really correct. There are plenty of murder cases with no body and no eye witness where 12 out of 12 people vote guilty. Their might be a tad of physical evidence but many times it's pretty much all or almost all circumstantial. It depends on how powerful and how much circumstantial evidence there is.

Right but lets be honest though...this isn't a court case...it isn't about using circumstantial evidence to prove something 'beyond reasonable doubt'. If there isn't legitimate proof found here, then any conclusions of guilt that some want to have are no more credible than the wild theories some are coming up with now about the Colts' role in all this.

That's all I was saying before, there has been so much junk reported and conflicting stories out there that people have, and will continue to, form their own opinions based on what they think the facts are. But IF nothing comes from this, the only real fact will be that there was no evidence of wrongdoing...there will be no proof of guilt and therefor no 'conviction.'

[Bad Morty]

C'mon. Don't pretend you don't care. You wouldn't post if you didn't care. I care but it didn't break my heart when I heard they were cheating, and I won't be heartbroken if they are proved innocent. I would however stop watching NFL if I found out Andrew Luck and the Colts cheated. I stopped watching Baseball because of all the cheating. It sucks to see milestones like Hank Aaron's home run record fall to a guy like Bonds. When I was a kid I loved baseball I loved watching the Oakland A's. But they were cheaters. That didn't break my heart but it did end my love of Baseball. That is a fact.

There are a lot of people that say if they cheated it's no big deal. Take $25'000 and be done with it. But most hardcore sports fans, not the casual fan, but the fans that have game day rituals and stuff like that, they won't give the Patriots a pass. So pretend you don't care but I know you do, or you wouldn't be here day in and day out defending them.

To each his own, but I think you have a kind of naïve outlook as it relates to abandoning an entire sport over what is really a time-honored tradition of this type of stuff. Pitchers were throwing spit-balls and carrying nail files to the mound forever in baseball. Teams have been stealing each other's signals forever. I draw a big line between Cheating with a capital 'C' and silly stuff like this, and frankly most of the stuff that I consider truly damaging to the integrity of the game has to do with gambling...the Black Sox scandal...Pete Rose....Tim Donahy...Paul Hornung and Alex Karras...those are the types of things where fans can legitimately start wondering if the teams, players, and refs on the field are actually playing a legit game or if they are watching WWE Wrestling.

[dw49]

Right but lets be honest though...this isn't a court case...it isn't about using circumstantial evidence to prove something 'beyond reasonable doubt'. If there isn't legitimate proof found here, then any conclusions of guilt that some want to have are no more credible than the wild theories some are coming up with now about the Colts' role in all this.

That's all I was saying before, there has been so much junk reported and conflicting stories out there that people have, and will continue to, form their own opinions based on what they think the facts are. But IF nothing comes from this, the only real fact will be that there was no evidence of wrongdoing...there will be no proof of guilt and therefor no 'conviction.'

 

 

This "evidence " conversation started with Virdulant stating there was zero evidence against the Colts and zero against the Pats. That's was not true as there is circumstantial evidence against the Pats and it is evidence.

 

That said... 

 

The Pats can (IMO) be found guilty in the eyes of the NFL with no confession  or eye witness to wrong doing. I have a feeling from what has leaked out recently that this will not be the case. If I had to go even further and guess what the final outcome will be , I'd say they will get reprimanded for the way they prepared the footballs. 

[AndreRison]

To each his own, but I think you have a kind of naïve outlook as it relates to abandoning an entire sport over what is really a time-honored tradition of this type of stuff. Pitchers were throwing spit-balls and carrying nail files to the mound forever in baseball. Teams have been stealing each other's signals forever. I draw a big line between Cheating with a capital 'C' and silly stuff like this, and frankly most of the stuff that I consider truly damaging to the integrity of the game has to do with gambling...the Black Sox scandal...Pete Rose....Tim Donahy...Paul Hornung and Alex Karras...those are the types of things where fans can legitimately start wondering if the teams, players, and refs on the field are actually playing a legit game or if they are watching WWE Wrestling.

I probably wouldn't stop watching the NFL if they came down harshly on cheating. I think people just want the NFL to do the right thing if the Patriots are found cheating. They were way too light on the Patriots last time. They did the right thing with the Saints, although I don't think what the Saints did was as bad as what the Patriots did in the Spygate deal. Just my opinion.

[Yehoodi]

You could say the same thing at this point in time even if it leaked out that the ball "old man" admitted to the Wells committee that he deflated footballs in the bathroom. It wouldn't be admissible until the old man or person from the Wells committee stated it in court. So if you want to say those guys are correct as nothing as been properly substantiated , I guess have at it. What these two are saying is that there is no more evidence that would make the Pats more likely to have derated footballs than there is against the Colts. Kind of like saying the police were just as likely to have shot the victim as the suspected killer because they want to divert guilt away from themselves.

 

I think you are presuming guilt on the pats and not looking at other things and the leaks in general.  We will not know until the report comes out what the facts the NFL has gathered, and hopefully, we will have a transparent look at the facts. 

 

The problem you have surrounding the people who think that pats did something wrong is the following:

 

It appears that the checking of the balls seems not to be the most secure method as they do not record the PSI of the balls.  Also, you have a lingering report by Aaron Rodgers who stated that he does not like it when the refs take air out of the balls.  He did not say the "one" time when the ref took the air out of the balls, but "when they do it" a strong indication to me that it has happened more than once and likely many times.  Which begs the question why did not Aaron Rodgers stop after the first time the ball was deflate?  Are not the Packers are cheaters?  Probably not, but somewhere along the line if this issue is a serious as some think surely the NFL would of told the Packers to stop coming to game with overinflated balls, right?  So something is amiss with Aaron's statements. Either the packers try all the time to sneak balls past the refs or perhaps the 12.5-13.5 is not as fast and set a rule that the NFL has imposed over the years

 

Second, Brady, BB and Kraft seem sincerely baffled regarding the goings on.

 

Third, if, and I say if, it comes out that all of the pats balls are underinflated for innocent reasons, like the weather and 11 balls are within 0.50 PSI of 12.5 PSI (22 degree drop in temp is about 0.50 PSI) and you got one ball at 10.5 PSI that was in the colts custody.  then you have 11 balls around 12.0 PSI and one at 10.5 PSI, which would be an old ball being in the colts custody be too far out of spec to be a natural occurrence.

 

Fourth, all of this happened with a week of Brady's "well we know the rule book" press conference.  It seems kind of too good to be true or poetic justice that within a week Brady seems to be eating his words.  Funny isn't it?

 

Fifth, the Colts coach was the DC for the Ravens under the present coach Harbaugh who was not too happy about what the pats did.

 

Sixth, this story was "leaked" by an "NFL" source at 1 am on a Monday morning several hours after the game to Bob Kravitz.  Why exacting is there an NFL employee awake at 1 am in the morning and much less talking to Kravitz about an investigation which the pats don't even know about.  

 

Time will tell but as it stands now and as it stood in my opinion only a few days after it happen, there are too many things that look fishy.  Something does not smell right and things may make sense in the end, time will tell.

 

But no matter how you try to spin it, if in the end of the day 11 balls are innocent and the one ball in the colts possession is outside natural occurrences then we have issues.

 

And there has been NO FACTS to dispute any of the above and any of the above is just as likely as the pats claiming innocence while figuring out a way to get the balls 1-2 PSI below spec.

 

EDIT:  I would like to add a seventh point.  Unlike Spygate where you had some people coming out of the wood work indicating that they thought the pats were taping, we do not have the same with deflate gate.  Since 2006/7 when the NFL allowed teams to bring their own balls I do not recall there ever being a complain about the pats, and most critically there has not been one to date that I am away of regarding the matter.  An indication to me that leans towards they perhaps do not do it intentionally.

[Yehoodi]

Good post, I agree with almost all of it. My only point was that the poster was stating things as fact when they were, in truth, opinion. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.

 

Agree with you and thank you for your words.  You I do not like it either when some folks try to blur the line between facts and opinion.   It can make for some frustrating talk when you are trying to have conversation, especially when it is over a forum where one has to wait for a response and not get it all, as opposed to in person when you can go back and forth and get a better understanding what a person might mean by a given word.

 

I just hope the Wells report comes out soon and REALLY hope that the report is transparent enough so that a high majority of people will be satisfied.  It will like not a make all happy, but I do hope enough so that it will not be a lingering issue.  Time will tell.

 

I do think there are too many leaks that only lead to folks going in different directions.

[dw49]

I think you are presuming guilt on the pats and not looking at other things and the leaks in general.  We will not know until the report comes out what the facts the NFL has gathered, and hopefully, we will have a transparent look at the facts. 

 

The problem you have surrounding the people who think that pats did something wrong is the following:

 

It appears that the checking of the balls seems not to be the most secure method as they do not record the PSI of the balls.  Also, you have a lingering report by Aaron Rodgers who stated that he does not like it when the refs take air out of the balls.  He did not say the "one" time when the ref took the air out of the balls, but "when they do it" a strong indication to me that it has happened more than once and likely many times.  Which begs the question why did not Aaron Rodgers stop after the first time the ball was deflate?  Are not the Packers are cheaters?  Probably not, but somewhere along the line if this issue is a serious as some think surely the NFL would of told the Packers to stop coming to game with overinflated balls, right?  So something is amiss with Aaron's statements. Either the packers try all the time to sneak balls past the refs or perhaps the 12.5-13.5 is not as fast and set a rule that the NFL has imposed over the years

 

Second, Brady, BB and Kraft seem sincerely baffled regarding the goings on.

 

Third, if, and I say if, it comes out that all of the pats balls are underinflated for innocent reasons, like the weather and 11 balls are within 0.50 PSI of 12.5 PSI (22 degree drop in temp is about 0.50 PSI) and you got one ball at 10.5 PSI that was in the colts custody.  then you have 11 balls around 12.0 PSI and one at 10.5 PSI, which would be an old ball being in the colts custody be too far out of spec to be a natural occurrence.

 

Fourth, all of this happened with a week of Brady's "well we know the rule book" press conference.  It seems kind of too good to be true or poetic justice that within a week Brady seems to be eating his words.  Funny isn't it?

 

Fifth, the Colts coach was the DC for the Ravens under the present coach Harbaugh who was not too happy about what the pats did.

 

Sixth, this story was "leaked" by an "NFL" source at 1 am on a Monday morning several hours after the game to Bob Kravitz.  Why exacting is there an NFL employee awake at 1 am in the morning and much less talking to Kravitz about an investigation which the pats don't even know about.  

 

Time will tell but as it stands now and as it stood in my opinion only a few days after it happen, there are too many things that look fishy.  Something does not smell right and things may make sense in the end, time will tell.

 

But no matter how you try to spin it, if in the end of the day 11 balls are innocent and the one ball in the colts possession is outside natural occurrences then we have issues.

 

And there has been NO FACTS to dispute any of the above and any of the above is just as likely as the pats claiming innocence while figuring out a way to get the balls 1-2 PSI below spec.

 

 

Way way too long for me to read defending a post that I claim there is more evidence that the pats messed with footballs than there is that the cots messed with footballs. I don't assume any guilt. You have 12 balls under inflated on 1 side and zero on the other side. To say there is absolutely no more evidence against to Pats than the cots is ridiculous. So forgive me for not going through your post

[Yehoodi]

Way way too long for me to read defending a post that I claim there is more evidence that the pats messed with footballs than there is that the cots messed with footballs. I don't assume any guilt. You have 12 balls under inflated on 1 side and zero on the other side. To say there is absolutely no more evidence against to Pats than the cots is ridiculous. So forgive me for not going through your post

 

if you do not want to read then how can you claim what those guys are saying is wrong?   You make an accusation and/or complain about another's actions and do want to take the time to look at the facts in front of you.

 

Just a short point regarding your comments of the colts balls.  As been stated many times before we do not know what any of the reading were pregame at the half or at the end of the game.

 

A 22 degree temp drop lowers the PSI about 0.50 PSI,

 

If the colts balls started at 13.1 PSI and the pats at 12.6 PSI they are all in spec pregame, then if they are checked at half time (without allowing for coming back to room temp)   the colts balls could be at 12.6 and pats and 12.1 and would innocently explain when the balls at the start were in spec but only the pats were out of spec at the half.

 

And a quick summation of my last post, if those are the facts in the end, but there was a lone ball at 10.5 but it was the one on the colts side lines, things will get a little dicey.  that is all we are trying to say.

[dw49]

if you do not want to read then how can you claim what those guys are saying is wrong?   You make an accusation and/or complain about another's actions and do want to take the time to look at the facts in front of you.

 

Just a short point regarding your comments of the colts balls.  As been stated many times before we do not know what any of the reading were pregame at the half or at the end of the game.

 

A 22 degree temp drop lowers the PSI about 0.50 PSI,

 

If the colts balls started at 13.1 PSI and the pats at 12.6 PSI they are all in spec pregame, then if they are checked at half time (without allowing for coming back to room temp)   the colts balls could be at 12.6 and pats and 12.1 and would innocently explain when the balls at the start were in spec but only the pats were out of spec at the half.

 

And a quick summation of my last post, if those are the facts in the end, but there was a lone ball at 10.5 but it was the one on the colts side lines, things will get a little dicey.  that is all we are trying to say.

 

 

To say that the odds are the same that the Colts doctored balls as it is for the Pats to have doctored balls is foolish and ridiculous. I did you the courtesy of reading what you have.

 

1) There is nothing stating that there is one ball that deflated 2 lbs and 11 that deflated .5 which would explain as you have it laid out. 

 

2) To say that BB , Kraft  and TB seemed innocent ... You are kidding on using that for evidence. Furthermore most of the public thought Brady looked guilty as all hell during his press conference.

 

3) The rest of what you have is really ridiculous . No offense but it's pretty much insane and you no doubt have a vivid imagination and really do believe this was all a set up . The Colts trying to frame the Pats. Utterly ridiculous. Really coincidental that the Colts decided to farm NE and all the Colt balls measure fine and all 12 of NE balls are under. How about we just drop this as I can't take reading through stuff like that and actually debating it's merits. 

[dw49]

Wow.. just realizing than other than am football , go pats and maybe 1 other , the rest of these pat fans really think it's very possible that our team is trying to frame their team. You have to be kidding me. 

[ViriLudant]

<p><p>

What I posted to was this statement by you and it's ridiculous. I totally destroyed you and those that backed that statement. Circumstantial evidence is evidence . I have no idea how you are bringing me into this ridiculous "fact" argument. As far as the Mort thing , what you have is again ridiculous. Once Rapoports report came out < i totally said NE could be innocent of any wrong doing.

Here's your ridiculous statement and it mentions "EVIDENCE" not "fact,"

Virdulant states....

"ROFL

there is just as much evidence that the Colts deflated the ball as there is the Patriots. Fact. "

So yes you were totally destroyed.

• Like This

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As has already been proven up above, you still do not comprehend what a fact is.

No evidence of Patriot guilt has been demonstrated.

Zero.

You would make an awful lawyer.

[ViriLudant]

The fact that NE had 12 under inflated footballs is way more powerful than saying the Colts don't like the Pats.

We don't know for sure if the ball that came from the Colt sideline was the only seriously inflated one.

The Colts would look very stupid if the only defaulted ball came after they had it on their sideline. That in itself is really more evidence against the Pats. The Colts knew their footballs were under inflated and all 12 were.

The fact that Pagano said he didn't know beforehand really is no proof of guilt.

Your assertion that circumstantial evidence is not proof is not really correct. There are plenty of murder cases with no body and no eye witness where 12 out of 12 people vote guilty. Their might be a tad of physical evidence but many times it's pretty much all or almost all circumstantial. It depends on how powerful and how much circumstantial evidence there is.

Simple question for you:

Do you honestly think that Robert Kraft, who accepted the consequences of Spy gate with full responsibility, no appeal, etc., would have made such ironclad assurances of the Patriots' innocence if he had the slightest belief that the Patriots would be found guilty?

That would be foolhardy, and Kraft is a brilliant man. He never would have made such statements if he was not 100% thoroughly convinced of a lack of wrongdoing .

[ViriLudant]

Wow.. just realizing than other than am football , go pats and maybe 1 other , the rest of these pat fans really think it's very possible that our team is trying to frame their team. You have to be kidding me.

Based in your claimed understanding of circumstantial evidence, you'd be hypocritical if you don't see how his statement about Colt involvement COULD be circumstantially true.

I personally think that it's more like that Kensil took air out of the ball, if anyone did. He was the one with an axe to grind.

[Bad Morty]

Good article from the Washington Post on it http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/deflategate-and-what-it-amounted-to-remains-an-open-question/2015/02/23/e01311dc-b9f1-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html

 

Not that the story was entirely problematic for the NFL. It not only overshadowed more delicate — and serious — off-the-field matters facing the league, it drew more outrage than on-field issues that seem more likely to bring sanctions. Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank admitted that his team piped in artificial crowd noise during home games. Last week, Cleveland Browns General Manager Ray Farmer confessed that he broke rules by texting coaches with play suggestions during games. Both violations remain under investigation, and both seem far more likely to lead to punishment than the Patriots affair.

[dw49]

{snipped}

No evidence of Patriot guilt has been demonstrated.

Zero.

{snipped}

 

 

There is a difference between a "fact" and "evidence." This is very similar to me having to blast you and Jerrod for saying about 38 times Rapoport did not say there was 1 ball albs under and the rest were just a tick under. You two kept refusing to admit that "MANY" does not mean "ALL." This is more of the same . What I objected to what your rearm that said there was no "EVIDENCE" . This is false , as there is circumstantial evidence . I in no where ever said anything about a FACT that PROVES NE deflated footballs. So I'll just keep kicking your butt like I did with the Rappoport report.

[dw49]

Simple question for you:

Do you honestly think that Robert Kraft, who accepted the consequences of Spy gate with full responsibility, no appeal, etc., would have made such ironclad assurances of the Patriots' innocence if he had the slightest belief that the Patriots would be found guilty?

That would be foolhardy, and Kraft is a brilliant man. He never would have made such statements if he was not 100% thoroughly convinced of a lack of wrongdoing .

 

 

Once again , I'm not saying I think the Pats took air out of the footballs. I have stated many , many times that I don't think that will prove to be the case. This is really getting ridiculous. 

[dw49]

Based in your claimed understanding of circumstantial evidence, you'd be hypocritical if you don't see how his statement about Colt involvement COULD be circumstantially true.

I personally think that it's more like that Kensil took air out of the ball, if anyone did. He was the one with an axe to grind.

 

 

You could make ridiculous claims. Yehoodi did a nice long posts on just what you say above. I would say that any reasonable person would say that the circumstantial evidence of Tom Brady saying he likes deflated footballs , 12 balls deflated vs 0 balls deflated , a guy taking the balls into the bathroom , no doubt trumps that nonsense Yehoodi posted. Sure you could say there is circumstantial evidence against the Colts , it would mostly be that they probably don't like the Pats. The ball issue you guys bring up ( the one the Colts had was most deflated) is incomplete because we don't know what the other balls (those other than the "many" measured. 

 

The point is you made a ridiculous statement that the EVIDENCE not "FACTS THAT A TEAM DELATED FOOTBALLS" was the same for NE and IND. That is ridiculous. Just like "many does not mean all." 

[dw49]

Good article from the Washington Post on it http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/deflategate-and-what-it-amounted-to-remains-an-open-question/2015/02/23/e01311dc-b9f1-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html

 

Not that the story was entirely problematic for the NFL. It not only overshadowed more delicate — and serious — off-the-field matters facing the league, it drew more outrage than on-field issues that seem more likely to bring sanctions. Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank admitted that his team piped in artificial crowd noise during home games. Last week, Cleveland Browns General Manager Ray Farmer confessed that he broke rules by texting coaches with play suggestions during games. Both violations remain under investigation, and both seem far more likely to lead to punishment than the Patriots affair.

 

 

Yep , the author thinks this would not be a big offense if the Pats were found guilty while the commissioner does. Duhh on his last statement as they already have the evidence on those two offenses. We at this point have not seen that report and can only make guesses as to the innocence or guilt of these "TWO" teams. I have the Pats at 20% chance of being guilty. After reading the Yahoodi report and the rest of you backing it up , I have the Colts at .00043% of being guilty of framing the Pats.

[Bad Morty]

You could make ridiculous claims. Yehoodi did a nice long posts on just what you say above. I would say that any reasonable person would say that the circumstantial evidence of Tom Brady saying he likes deflated footballs , 12 balls deflated vs 0 balls deflated , a guy taking the balls into the bathroom , no doubt trumps that nonsense Yehoodi posted. Sure you could say there is circumstantial evidence against the Colts , it would mostly be that they probably don't like the Pats. The ball issue you guys bring up ( the one the Colts had was most deflated) is incomplete because we don't know what the other balls (those other than the "many" measured. 

 

The point is you made a ridiculous statement that the EVIDENCE not "FACTS THAT A TEAM DELATED FOOTBALLS" was the same for NE and IND. That is ridiculous. Just like "many does not mean all." 

 

I think all anyone is trying to say is that in this situation, the circumstantial cases people are building start from the outcome they desire and then work out the details to support that outcome. There's no objectivity involved here as there would be in the court of law situation...instead, there is picking and choosing of the circumstantial evidence. That wouldn't happen in a court case. The OJ Simpson trial should have been a cut and dry circumstantial conviction. The evidence here is far too weak and there are other equally plausible explanations as to why the balls were deflated....this case wouldn't even make it to court.

[amfootball]

You could make ridiculous claims. Yehoodi did a nice long posts on just what you say above. I would say that any reasonable person would say that the circumstantial evidence of Tom Brady saying he likes deflated footballs , 12 balls deflated vs 0 balls deflated , a guy taking the balls into the bathroom , no doubt trumps that nonsense Yehoodi posted. Sure you could say there is circumstantial evidence against the Colts , it would mostly be that they probably don't like the Pats. The ball issue you guys bring up ( the one the Colts had was most deflated) is incomplete because we don't know what the other balls (those other than the "many" measured. 

 

The point is you made a ridiculous statement that the EVIDENCE not "FACTS THAT A TEAM DELATED FOOTBALLS" was the same for NE and IND. That is ridiculous. Just like "many does not mean all." 

So I read through a few pages to get the jist of this. The debate is about evidence and circumstantial and guilt and such. I think the biggest thing here is the NFL is not a court so they can penalize the Pats without any hard evidence BUT I think where this gets sticky and something you and I have discussed is the proving of tampering. You can't just have 12 underinflated balls and say that X  team tampered with them. If that was the case then the league would have done that back after the AFCCG when they first discovered the balls.

 

I tend to agree with you that there is enough here to make things seem fishy from the Pats end, you have the balls, Brady saying he likes an underinflated ball and then the guy in the bathroom. I also think it is even more fishy how all this went down with Grigson saying something to the league beforehand but never disclosing that he did so until just last week. First, it was the Jackson pick then it was the call into the league in the second quarter and then Pagano denying it. Then you have the Ravens and Harbaugh being potentially linked in and of course Kensil and his ax to grind. I think for Pats fans the one thing none of us can understand is WHY the league did not come to the Pats before the game and say make sure your balls are properly inflated. This is a rule book violation. A slap on the hand offense and we have this song and dance that keeps changing daily about what really happened, how it all went down, etc. On top of that we have a rogue ref that was fired after the game for stealing a ball to sell after the game. I mean, really?

 

What an awful underbelly that has been exposed for the league and their ball handling. So at this point, I think all of us want to see some hard evidence of tampering. With all these conflicting reports and such it has everyone feeling upset, and rightfully so.

 

I also think Colts fans should be upset IF obviously the Pats tampered which is still TBD and even more so IF the league let the teams play for a full half with underinflated footballs after being notified by Grigson prior to the game. As with everything this year, the league is the one that has messed this up at every possible juncture.

[ViriLudant]

Balls barely under the legal limit can easily be explained by atmospheric change. There goes circumstantial evidence.

D'Quell said that his intercepted ball was perfectly fine. He said that NOTHING was wrong with it.

Then it turns out being 2 PSI under?

Yeah , that's not circumstantial at all.

[dw49]

I think all anyone is trying to say is that in this situation, the circumstantial cases people are building start from the outcome they desire and then work out the details to support that outcome. There's no objectivity involved here as there would be in the court of law situation...instead, there is picking and choosing of the circumstantial evidence. That wouldn't happen in a court case. The OJ Simpson trial should have been a cut and dry circumstantial conviction. The evidence here is far too weak and there are other equally plausible explanations as to why the balls were deflated....this case wouldn't even make it to court.

 

 

We don't know this for sure. What you have above could very well be true. Does Walt Anderson remember that all the Colt balls measured around 13.3 or does he remember they mostly measured around 12,6 ? Huge difference as the first would possibly explain away why it was 12 balls vs 0 balls. If it were the later , it would be difficult to explain. As far as would this case go to court  , I have no idea as we haven't been provided with any of the info other than leaks. I will say I can't understand what is taking so long if what you say is true.. that being no evidence. But until we see the report , I can't say for sure.

[dw49]

Balls barely under the legal limit can easily be explained by atmospheric change. There goes circumstantial evidence.

D'Quell said that his intercepted ball was perfectly fine. He said that NOTHING was wrong with it.

Then it turns out being 2 PSI under?

Yeah , that's not circumstantial at all.

 

 

No what he said was he didn't notice anything. Way to start embellishing. 

[Bad Morty]

No what he said was he didn't notice anything. Way to start embellishing. 

 

But that really is an interesting part of the story that doesn't get a lot of talk...think about it - the player said he didn't notice anything wrong with the ball, then that ball tested at 2lbs under the minimum. That can only tell us one of two things:

 

1) There is no noticeable difference between 12.5 PSI and 10.5 PSI, so why are we making a big deal of this, OR

 

2) The ball was 12.5 when he caught it, which is why he didn't notice anything wrong, then it tested at 10.5 at halftime...so what happened there?

[dw49]

So I read through a few pages to get the jist of this. The debate is about evidence and circumstantial and guilt and such. I think the biggest thing here is the NFL is not a court so they can penalize the Pats without any hard evidence BUT I think where this gets sticky and something you and I have discussed is the proving of tampering. You can't just have 12 underinflated balls and say that X  team tampered with them. If that was the case then the league would have done that back after the AFCCG when they first discovered the balls.

 

I tend to agree with you that there is enough here to make things seem fishy from the Pats end, you have the balls, Brady saying he likes an underinflated ball and then the guy in the bathroom. I also think it is even more fishy how all this went down with Grigson saying something to the league beforehand but never disclosing that he did so until just last week. First, it was the Jackson pick then it was the call into the league in the second quarter and then Pagano denying it. Then you have the Ravens and Harbaugh being potentially linked in and of course Kensil and his ax to grind. I think for Pats fans the one thing none of us can understand is WHY the league did not come to the Pats before the game and say make sure your balls are properly inflated. This is a rule book violation. A slap on the hand offense and we have this song and dance that keeps changing daily about what really happened, how it all went down, etc. On top of that we have a rogue ref that was fired after the game for stealing a ball to sell after the game. I mean, really?

 

What an awful underbelly that has been exposed for the league and their ball handling. So at this point, I think all of us want to see some hard evidence of tampering. With all these conflicting reports and such it has everyone feeling upset, and rightfully so.

 

I also think Colts fans should be upset IF obviously the Pats tampered which is still TBD and even more so IF the league let the teams play for a full half with underinflated footballs after being notified by Grigson prior to the game. As with everything this year, the league is the one that has messed this up at every possible juncture.

 

So...? What is your point. We all want to see the report . I never said there was hard evidence against NE. All I said is that it's silly to be basically stating that the Colts have as much chance of being guilty of framing NE than NE does of being found guilty of tampering with footballs. You people just keep fighting that in the same way many of "you" were saying "many " was the same as "all." It really must be the air in NE. Anyway , you guys can keep dodging and weaving and posting Yahoodi reports. 

[ViriLudant]

We don't know this for sure. What you have above could very well be true. Does Walt Anderson remember that all the Colt balls measured around 13.3 or does he remember they mostly measured around 12,6 ? Huge difference as the first would possibly explain away why it was 12 balls vs 0 balls. If it were the later , it would be difficult to explain. As far as would this case go to court , I have no idea as we haven't been provided with any of the info other than leaks. I will say I can't understand what is taking so long if what you say is true.. that being no evidence. But until we see the report , I can't say for sure.

Excellent post.

I will say, though, that I doubt whether the footballs were actually tested with an instrument. I know that the NFL claims that they were tested according to regulation, but they have refused so far that they were truly measured by an instrument. It wouldn't surprise me if they were given the squeeze test, as several former NFL refs have stated is usually the case.

[amfootball]

So...? What is your point. We all want to see the report . I never said there was hard evidence against NE. All I said is that it's silly to be basically stating that the Colts have as much chance of being guilty of framing NE than NE does of being found guilty of tampering with footballs. You people just keep fighting that in the same way many of "you" were saying "many " was the same as "all." It really must be the air in NE. Anyway , you guys can keep dodging and weaving and posting Yahoodi reports. 

That is just silly. There is way more suspicion here of the Pats doing something than the Colts. But you have to admit, Irsay hates us with a passion. Even more maybe than the Jets because of the playoff losses and the whole Brady/Manning thing. You can see how some Pats fans would jump to that conclusion given the history.

 

The one thing I want to know more than anything is how Grigson was tipped off about the footballs. That could shed the most light on the whole thing but we will never find out I am sure.

[dw49]

But that really is an interesting part of the story that doesn't get a lot of talk...think about it - the player said he didn't notice anything wrong with the ball, then that ball tested at 2lbs under the minimum. That can only tell us one of two things:

 

1) There is no noticeable difference between 12.5 PSI and 10.5 PSI, so why are we making a big deal of this, OR

 

2) The ball was 12.5 when he caught it, which is why he didn't notice anything wrong, then it tested at 10.5 at halftime...so what happened there?

 

 

Morty, Jackson tipped the ball in the air and cradled it for an INT. He carried it off and tossed it to the ball boy. He wasn't squeezing the ball , nor did he play catch with it on the sideline. many QB's have come out and said it's easier to get a good grip on a football that's 2LBs under. I don't think I've seen too many say that wasn't true. AS far as how much of an advantage would it be ? I have no clue. I would think on a cold , windy , wet night , it would help the QB from having balls slip out of his hand. Evidently it was not an issue as Brady threw the ball just fine in the 2nd half. Do I think this should be a slap on the wrist and just a 25K time with nothing else if they find the Pats guilty ? No I don't as the intent would have been to gain a competitive edge. If it were a close game , an Int that slipped out of Brady's hand or a fumble that might have happened with a slippery fully inflated ball could have been the deciding factor in the AFFCG. To me that is a big offense and Goodall seems to agree. 

[dw49]

That is just silly. There is way more suspicion here of the Pats doing something than the Colts. But you have to admit, Irsay hates us with a passion. Even more maybe than the Jets because of the playoff losses and the whole Brady/Manning thing. You can see how some Pats fans would jump to that conclusion given the history.

 

The one thing I want to know more than anything is how Grigson was tipped off about the footballs. That could shed the most light on the whole thing but we will never find out I am sure.

 

It could be from the game in Indy ? Although we did hear that Harbaugh said something but he later denied that. Or maybe Grigson will prove to be a nut case and most of these balls will prove to be a few ticks under and the rest around .5 under. The ball that was 2lbs under could have been defective and case closed .. dunno

[dw49]

Excellent post.

I will say, though, that I doubt whether the footballs were actually tested with an instrument. I know that the NFL claims that they were tested according to regulation, but they have refused so far that they were truly measured by an instrument. It wouldn't surprise me if they were given the squeeze test, as several former NFL refs have stated is usually the case.

 

 

The way this whole thing was handed is deplorable. It certainly appears there was a "sting operation" and if true that no doubt is a travesty. First of all if it were a sting operation , do it right. You have to let the NFL in on it as you have to have documented PSI's , set up extra cameras and what ever else. But it would have never flown as the offense was not serious enough to warrant something like that. Plus you have the possibility of a close game being affected by an illegal football. So you  just tell NE that this was mentioned and to make sure their balls meet league specs. Then do your investigation on whatever you can find in previous games to prove it happened or it didn't. 

[da_pats_troll]

It could be from the game in Indy ? Although we did hear that Harbaugh said something but he later denied that. Or maybe Grigson will prove to be a nut case and most of these balls will prove to be a few ticks under and the rest around .5 under. The ball that was 2lbs under could have been defective and case closed .. dunno

 

Here is something I cant figure out about the Grigson thing. Not that he notified the league, if he had his suspicions, then fine, he was perfectly justified to do so. But in the early part of the whole deflategate thing, we all learned (supposedly), that the home teams ball boy/locker room attendant is the one responsible for handling the balls. 

 

So if it was the game in Indy that the colts noticed something, how did the pats get a chance to do any foul deeds to the balls? They would of presented them to the refs a couple hours before the game, and then no one in the pats organization would of touched the balls till just before kickoff.

 

it just doesnt add up with the information we have available...?

[lollygagger8]

Wrong Kraft, ya knuckleheads. 

 

http://thekraftgroup.com/

 

You don't have to give up your mac-n-cheese. Step off the ledge. 

 

 

Lol, I'm aware.....I ain't giving up the mac n' cheese.

 

 

I'm almost embarrassed for you at these other antagonizing "pats fans" on here spending their entire existence getting on our Colts forum just to try and cause a scene. Get out of your mom's basement and get some fresh air. 

 

 

You (GoPats) and amfootball are about the only decent ones on here. 

[ViriLudant]

It could be from the game in Indy ? Although we did hear that Harbaugh said something but he later denied that. Or maybe Grigson will prove to be a nut case and most of these balls will prove to be a few ticks under and the rest around .5 under. The ball that was 2lbs under could have been defective and case closed .. dunno

It makes zero sense that if it came up in the earlier game that Pagano would not have known about it .

Not at all. It is impossible for the head coach not to know about the issue if it had happened against his own team just two months before .

[lollygagger8]

Sure they did. Butler didn't intercept the ball. Brady didn't bring the team back from 10 points down.

 

How's the weather on your planet? Is it nice? 

[lollygagger8]

Balls barely under the legal limit can easily be explained by atmospheric change. There goes circumstantial evidence.

D'Quell said that his intercepted ball was perfectly fine. He said that NOTHING was wrong with it.

Then it turns out being 2 PSI under?

Yeah , that's not circumstantial at all.

 

Hahahhha, now it's the Earth's fault. 

 

[crazycolt1]

For the most part I have been just reading these comments without being too involved. We can all talk and speculate till we are blue in the face but the facts remains the same. Patriots-11 underinflated footballs. Colts-0 underinflated footballs. That fact has been deflected and discussed by both sides of what you think happened. Till the final results are in from the investigation are in all this crap is useless. There is not point of view that has not been covered. Now it has turned into nothing but an argument. No matter what the result are going to be there will never be an end to this. Just like the fact of the Patriots getting caught, fined and losing a draft pick over the spygate incident. Anyone who dislikes the Patriots is never going to forget that. That will be a part of Patriots history forever. Patriot fans cant stand that part of their history. All I can say is it wouldn't be a part of their history had it not happened. This incident will also be a part of Patriot history no matter what the results of the investigation are. When you put the shoes on and play the part you have to take the heat. I do find it ironic that Patriot fans started pointing fingers at the Colts when the facts speak for themselves. The facts are as stated before are Patriots-ELEVEN underinflated footballs. Colts-ZERO underinflated footballs. How, why and who is responsible is yet to be determined.

[lollygagger8]

It's true. (Hangs head in defeat.)

 

If only we had a worthy opponent... say, like, Rex Grossman. 

 

 

Oooo, good one  

 

Carroll's decision to throw instead of handing off to the stud won you that game though.