Patriots investigation (merge)

[Cynjin]

But it is a fact. He said that there is no evidence at the moment proving either scenario...and he's right. That's the truth of the matter, it's a fact.

No it is not a fact, it is his opinion.

[ViriLudant]

No it is not a fact, it is his opinion.

No, it isn't.

No FACTS have demonstrated the Patriots' guilt.

NONE.

That is ridiculously simple to comprehend.

[bababooey]

Are you seriously having this much trouble understanding such a simple statement?

Fact #1: no EVIDENCE has been given that the Patriots deflated the balls as of yet.

Fact #2: no evidence has been given that the Colts deflated the ball as of yet.

Therefore , 1=2.

You're such a clown. Despite that technically "nothing" is evidence to us laypeople you know you wrote it intentionally to make it sound like of all the stories coming out over the past month that you've assembled what you think is true in your head, that the stories around the Colts allegedly deflating one ball are somehow equal to the leaks of the patriots allegedly deflating 11.

[dynasty13]

No it is not a fact, it is his opinion.

 

No. 

 

If there were facts proving either scenario to be true, the investigation would be over and there would be no need for further 'speculation.'

 

See if you can follow this:

There is no evidence proving the Patriots did anything wrong. That is a fact.

There is no evidence proving the Colts did anything wrong. That is also a fact.

 

Therefor, neither team is any more guilty than the other at the moment, and neither team is any more innocent than the other at the moment. If you deny that point then you are wrong and you haven't been paying attention. Right now there is wild speculation aiming at both arguments. No more, no less. 

[dynasty13]

You're such a clown. Despite that technically "nothing" is evidence to us laypeople you know you wrote it intentionally to make it sound like of all the stories coming out over the past month that you've assembled what you think is true in your head, that the stories around the Colts allegedly deflating one ball are somehow equal to the leaks of the patriots allegedly deflating 11.

 

So now you're telling him what the hidden intention was in his post while you simultaneously admit that 'technically' his statement was true?

[GoPats]

I don't buy Gillette Razors or Kraft cheese. Too expensive. Dollar Shave Club and Sargento here...

 

 

Ooooooo.....no more mac n cheese.....looks like shells and cheese for me. 

 

 

Wrong Kraft, ya knuckleheads. 

 

http://thekraftgroup.com/

 

You don't have to give up your mac-n-cheese. Step off the ledge. 

[ViriLudant]

You're such a clown. Despite that technically "nothing" is evidence to us laypeople you know you wrote it intentionally to make it sound like of all the stories coming out over the past month that you've assembled what you think is true in your head, that the stories around the Colts allegedly deflating one ball are somehow equal to the leaks of the patriots allegedly deflating 11.

ALLEGEDLY proves my point.

And another personal shot. Why can't you post without ad hominems? All it does is demonstrate the weakness of your argument.

[bababooey]

So now you're telling him what his hidden intention was in his post that 'technically' proved his statement to be true?

You guys aren't worth any more warning points.

[bababooey]

ALLEGEDLY proves my point.

And another personal shot. Why can't you post without ad hominems? All it does is demonstrate the weakness of your argument.

I can do what I want haven't you already realized this by now???

[GoPats]

 

The Seahawks gave the Patriots the Superbowl. Fact. 

 

It's true. (Hangs head in defeat.)

 

If only we had a worthy opponent... say, like, Rex Grossman. 

 

[dynasty13]

You guys aren't worth any more warning points.

 

Bud, you literally make no sense and it's been that way with you since this story broke a month ago. You don't listen to anything, and then when you are proven wrong you say 'oh jolly gosh well tecnically you are right, but I don't care'. That's no way to have a real discussion, but you are too busy criticizing why opposing fans are even here and trying to tell them what they actually meant in their own posts to even care about that and it's too bad, because many of us Patriots fans have been here for a long, long time...without any bans on the resume, and I think that's very telling.

[bababooey]

It's true. (Hangs head in defeat.)

 

If only we had a worthy opponent... say, like, Rex Grossman. 

 

Had to beat you guys to get there.

[Gramz]

Sort of, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Don't tell me you're now joining the "why are there so many Pats fans here?" club, Gramz.

I am having trouble quoting from my phone, but NO, I am not joining that club, and you know you've always been one of my favorites on here, so

I am however questioning myself and why I even bother coming here anymore.

[ColtsSouljah]

ALLEGEDLY proves my point.

And another personal shot. Why can't you post without ad hominems? All it does is demonstrate the weakness of your argument.

 

Sorry man, but you are in no position to talk about weakness of arguments when you STILL (after WEEKS) won't address the outlandish claims you have made (which I've already posted about several times in this thread alone).

[ViriLudant]

Sorry man, but you are in no position to talk about weakness of arguments when you STILL (after WEEKS) won't address the outlandish claims you have made (which I've already posted about several times in this thread alone).

It's odd to have a Colt stalker. Something tells me that you've never watched replays of SB parades.

[bababooey]

It's odd to have a Colt stalker. Something tells me that you've never watched replays of SB parades.

Typical Patriot deflector response.

[ColtsSouljah]

You guys do realize that if this was your team, you would be doing the same exact thing. Right? 

 

Just check the Indy forum anytime one of your guys gets arrested. 

 

That's not really an answer.

For one thing, none of us deny it when Colts players get arrested, and I don't think may would defend their actions. You guys are both denying and defending.

For another thing, that has nothing to do with my question. If the roles were reversed and we were doing the same thing, that would not inherently make said thing right.

 

AM said that he/she isn't bothered by any of this. I asked why he/she continues to argue about it then, because typically people don't argue about things they don't care about

[ColtsSouljah]

It's odd to have a Colt stalker. Something tells me that you've never watched replays of SB parades.

 

Actually I have. I watch them nearly every year. ESPN and the internet make them very accessible. Nice of you to not answer yet again, though.

[ColtsSouljah]

Typical Patriot deflector response.

 

It's basically the only thing he does.

[bababooey]

It's basically the only thing he does.

I too am guilty of feeding the troll.

[GoPats]

I am having trouble quoting from my phone, but NO, I am not joining that club, and you know you've always been one of my favorites on here, so

I am however questioning myself and why I even bother coming here anymore.

 

Well don't stop coming here... please. 

 

My only point was that we're doing what any halfway decent, self-respecting fan base would do in our situation. We're hoping that the "good leaks" are true, that the "bad leaks" are false, and are pulling for our team off the field. That's all. 

 

If the NFL comes out with video of someone letting air out of footballs, or a confession, or something otherwise iron-clad, that changes everything. I think most of us are reasonable enough in that regard. In the end though, with the Patriots under fire the way they've been, I think we're only doing what any fan would do for his/her team. 

 

 

Plus I think all this snow and these freezing cold temps are starting to get to us up here, ...

[dynasty13]

I too am guilty of feeding the troll.

 

Or...you know...being one.

[ViriLudant]

Actually I have. I watch them nearly every year. ESPN and the internet make them very accessible. Nice of you to not answer yet again, though.

Game. Set. Match.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/02/swaggering-giants-mock-gisele-pats-cowboys-and-jets-parade-super-bowl-xlvi-tom-brady-gisele-bundchen/1#.VOuhQIY8KnM

[GoPats]

That's not really an answer.

 

For one thing, none of us deny it when Colts players get arrested, and I don't think may would defend their actions. You guys are both denying and defending.

 

For another thing, that has nothing to do with my question. If the roles were reversed and we were doing the same thing, that would not inherently make said thing right.

 

AM said that he/she isn't bothered by any of this. I asked why he/she continues to argue about it then, because typically people don't argue about things they don't care about

 

To that last question... because AM is here almost every day. I am too. I don't contribute to deflated football threads every day, but if part of my "routine" is to swing by here, and I see new posts or a new thread, then of course I'm going to comment if I have something to add/say. 

 

As for defending/deflecting... it's about facts vs speculation. 

 

Let's take the case of Robert Mathis. Good example because it's hard to "prove" one way or another, and I remember that one well. The only fact we knew was that he failed a drug test. His story was that he took them as part of a fertility regimen, right? Believable enough I suppose. But there were no facts to substantiate his story, and none to debunk it. The majority of Indy fans took him at his word. Most of the rest of the football world did not. 

 

Conversely, do you see a lot of Patriots fans defending, say, Aaron Hernandez? No, because in all likelihood, he killed a guy (and possibly three). The evidence, albeit mostly circumstantial, is overwhelming, and any logical person would be hard-pressed to ignore it. 

 

Again, it's about facts vs speculation. It's about what we know versus what we don't know. And at this point, we really don't know all that much. 

[Cynjin]

No, it isn't.

No FACTS have demonstrated the Patriots' guilt.

NONE.

That is ridiculously simple to comprehend.

What you stated was an opinion and yes it should be ridiculously simple to comprehend.

[Cynjin]

 

See if you can follow this:

There is no evidence proving the Patriots did anything wrong. That is a fact.

There is no evidence proving the Colts did anything wrong. That is also a fact.

 

See if you and your brethren can follow this, but somehow I doubt it. Both of the above points are opinion, not fact. You have no idea what the facts are.

[Yehoodi]

That's not really an answer.

For one thing, none of us deny it when Colts players get arrested, and I don't think may would defend their actions. You guys are both denying and defending.

For another thing, that has nothing to do with my question. If the roles were reversed and we were doing the same thing, that would not inherently make said thing right.

 

AM said that he/she isn't bothered by any of this. I asked why he/she continues to argue about it then, because typically people don't argue about things they don't care about

 

And your bolded portion of your post hits at one of the hearts on the matter in question in my book.

 

That's is: Folks don't talk about things that are not important or are/is a non issue or not a real big deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

Just in the past 2-3 months we have had the following occur, all of which are violation of NFL rules :

 

Teams have been caught changing the temperature of balls on the sidelines by heating them, only a warning

 

The Chargers were fined 25K for having stickum in their towels

 

Evidence that Jerry Rice used stickum on his glove to help him catch footballs throughout his career

 

Atlanta was caught pumping in crowd noise into games

 

Team officials have been caught texting the sidelines

 

 

Funny thing is none of the above made the national media headlines, nor have had any extension coverage on this forum, the internet or TV.  Why do you think?  Perhaps that it in the end of the day, although illegal, is not that important because, as you indicated, no one is talking about it. 

 

See in the end of the day, one has to live with what one thinks and says.  And I do agree with your point and is evidence as to why the above is not the end of the world.  However, somehow what the pats did, finds a pinned it thread that is about 15 pages long, along with an older thread that I think might of went like 40 pages or something.  Not to mention the media circus around the time it happened.

 

So my point being for some offenders things are not a problem but for a similar act its a national tragedy for others.   And that is sad in my book.   It is the hypocrisy, double standard, second class citizen attitude that makes it so frustrating.  

 

And the reason why most of us are here is to defend ourselves against something that would be essentially a non issue or a three page thread that would of died 3 weeks ago had it not been the pats who were the alleged offenders. 

[ViriLudant]

See if you and your brethren can follow this, but somehow I doubt it. Both of the above points are opinion, not fact. You have no idea what the facts are.

Thanks.

You just proved me correct.

[bababooey]

lol what a joke^

[Cynjin]

Thanks.

You just proved me correct.

The only thing I proved is that you do not know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

[ViriLudant]

The only thing I proved is that you do not know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

Actually, you have completely failed in that respect.

Show met his evidence of Patriot guilt. You keep refusing to do this.

[ColtsSouljah]

Game. Set. Match.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/02/swaggering-giants-mock-gisele-pats-cowboys-and-jets-parade-super-bowl-xlvi-tom-brady-gisele-bundchen/1#.VOuhQIY8KnM

 

Cute. Tell, me where is the vulgarity? Also, you said it happens at "every" parade. You have taken THREE WEEKS to provide ONE example. I challenged you to provide a mere "half" of "every" from the last ten years. Try again.

[dw49]

What factual evidence has proven that the Patriots deflated the balls?

 

 

If you want to look at legalities and how our court system works. Yo say there is no more evidence against the Pats than Colts is a very ridiculous statement .

 

1)This will be decided on the preponderance of guilt. The scale tips at 51% guilty or innocent.

 

2) People are convicted on circumstantial evidence all the time. And that includes jury trials that require a unanimous vote. 

[ColtsSouljah]

To that last question... because AM is here almost every day. I am too. I don't contribute to deflated football threads every day, but if part of my "routine" is to swing by here, and I see new posts or a new thread, then of course I'm going to comment if I have something to add/say. 

 

As for defending/deflecting... it's about facts vs speculation. 

 

Let's take the case of Robert Mathis. Good example because it's hard to "prove" one way or another, and I remember that one well. The only fact we knew was that he failed a drug test. His story was that he took them as part of a fertility regimen, right? Believable enough I suppose. But there were no facts to substantiate his story, and none to debunk it. The majority of Indy fans took him at his word. Most of the rest of the football world did not. 

 

Conversely, do you see a lot of Patriots fans defending, say, Aaron Hernandez? No, because in all likelihood, he killed a guy (and possibly three). The evidence, albeit mostly circumstantial, is overwhelming, and any logical person would be hard-pressed to ignore it. 

 

Again, it's about facts vs speculation. It's about what we know versus what we don't know. And at this point, we really don't know all that much. 

 

I have no problem with pats fans being here. I just don't believe that people don't care about something they will passionately argue about.

 

The Mathis example is a strange one for you to use. His doctor saying he took a fertility drug is not evidence that he took a fertility drug?

[dw49]

I believe he is referring to the fact that there is 0 evidence that proves the Patriots knowingly deflated the footballs, and every 'conclusion' that has been drawn about their guilt so far is based solely on speculation and hope by those that want it to be true. On the other side, there is 0 evidence that proves the Colts deflated the Patriots football, and every 'conclusion' that has been drawn about their guilt so far is by conspiracy theorists that want to deflect attention.

 

Without actual evidence, one side is no more credible than the other at this point.

 

 

See post 580 and if you need help on what the circumstantial evidence would be in this ... don't be afraid to ask.

[amfootball]

I have no problem with pats fans being here. I just don't believe that people don't care about something they will passionately argue about.

 

The Mathis example is a strange one for you to use. His doctor saying he took a fertility drug is not evidence that he took a fertility drug?

Who ever talked about not caring? I just said I don't think it is a huge deal if they did ball tamper in the grand scheme of gamesmanship and cheating.

[Bad Morty]

See post 580 and if you need help on what the circumstantial evidence would be in this ... don't be afraid to ask.

 

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. "There is a body. These witnesses saw THAT suspect at the crime scene. That suspects clothes were bloody". That's a circumstantial court case.

 

What we have here is more like this..."sources claim that there is a body. Other sources say the victim had just a broken leg. Sources say this suspect was spotted near the alleged victim. Other sources say he wasn't exactly near the victim but was 10 miles away. Another source says this other suspect might have done it to frame the first suspect."

[ColtsSouljah]

Who ever talked about not caring? I just said I don't think it is a huge deal if they did ball tamper in the grand scheme of gamesmanship and cheating.

 

You said that others viewing the pats as "cheaters" doesn't bother you. At the risk of continuing this round and round, I simply don't get why you are posting so much trying to convince others that they aren't "cheaters" if what others believe doesn't "bother" you.

My overall point is that I think most people DO care and ARE bothered if their team is viewed as cheaters. We've seen this a lot in baseball with the steroid issues.

[Gramz]

Well don't stop coming here... please. 

 

My only point was that we're doing what any halfway decent, self-respecting fan base would do in our situation. We're hoping that the "good leaks" are true, that the "bad leaks" are false, and are pulling for our team off the field. That's all. 

 

If the NFL comes out with video of someone letting air out of footballs, or a confession, or something otherwise iron-clad, that changes everything. I think most of us are reasonable enough in that regard. In the end though, with the Patriots under fire the way they've been, I think we're only doing what any fan would do for his/her team. 

 

 

Plus I think all this snow and these freezing cold temps are starting to get to us up here, ...

I just flat out don't even care anymore.

 

These circular discussions, arguments, whatever anybody cares to call them, have been going in circles, for pages and pages, and days and days.

 

I'm just done.  That's all.

[ViriLudant]

If you want to look at legalities and how our court system works. Yo say there is no more evidence against the Pats than Colts is a very ridiculous statement .

1)This will be decided on the preponderance of guilt. The scale tips at 51% guilty or innocent.

2) People are convicted on circumstantial evidence all the time. And that includes jury trials that require a unanimous vote.

So you're telling me that there's mo evidence of guilt, as no facts of Patriot guilt have emerged.