Speculation Thread: What do you think happened at Deflategate? (Merge)

[NFLfan]

Have you considered that more than one person was in there?

My personal opinion is that this deflation has more to do with Belichick wanting to limit fumbles, and the fact that his QB prefers throwing a softer football made this tactic viable. I believe that this goes straight up to Belichick, a collusion to set game balls well below the standard rule set. It would be very easy to have 2-3 people ready to quickly adjust the pressure of these balls to their desired setting.

It is almost impossible to reason with the unreasonable (Pats fans).

Irresponsible? I wouldn't use that word. The words I would use include, but are not limited to;

Unethical.

Greedy.

Stalling.

Underhanded.

Improper.

Avarice.

... we have the NFL obviously stalling to make sure this issue doesn't get resolved until their Super Bowl is well past. They don't want this matter to affect their profits, sponsors, and viewership.

A cheater is playing in the Super Bowl this year.

You made lots of good points in this thread. I liked the avarice comment. In the NFL, avarice prevails.

The wife of Miami Dolphins Brent Grimes agrees with you. She went on a tweet rant accusing the NFL of hypocrisy and greed. Among what she posted are:

Tweet: “U have these [expletives] NOMORE campaigns going on about domestic violence and sexual assault when we all know u dont (care) about women!”

Tweet: “But dont believe for a SECOND they care about these players injuries. Its all [expletive]!! They care about MONEY!!! Thats why i tell every”

Tweet: “player i talk to... Get paid!!! There is NO LOYALTY in this business outside of fans.”

I would love to hear what she has to say about this investigation by the NFL. She would probably call it bogus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/01/26/wife-of-dolphins-brent-grimes-blasts-the-nfl-in-long-profane-twitter-rant/?tid=pm_sports_pop

[Narcosys]

This is exactly what I believe went on and has been going on for years. They intentionally inflate the footballs with warm moist air knowing that the moisture will condense out as the ball cools increasing the loss of air pressure beyond that which is calculable from Guy Lussac's Law. The temperature and humidity of the air in the ball is not specified so this is a very simple way to skirt the rule and get illegal footballs into the game with no one knowing and with a plausible out (no specific rule on the properties of the air) if they ever are caught. I bet very few people in the Patriot organization are privy to the scheme to avoid having it come out if a player goes to another team.

Do you know how hot those balls would be when handed over to the refs? It would be obvious and painful. At that point the ball would cool quickly and would be under pressure by the time they could safely give the balls to the refs without getting caught. They would have to figure out the temp if the room prior to inspection, inflate it higher than 13.5 so that when it cools to room temp is at 12.5. But once that occurs, it's so impossible for that to go below by that much once taken outside. Because at that point it doesn't matter if it was filed with hot air or room temp air because it's room temp when measured. So it just brings us back to Tim temp air cannot lose that much pressure when taken out in those temps.

[da_pats_troll]

Do you know how hot those balls would be when handed over to the refs? It would be obvious and painful. At that point the ball would cool quickly and would be under pressure by the time they could safely give the balls to the refs without getting caught. They would have to figure out the temp if the room prior to inspection, inflate it higher than 13.5 so that when it cools to room temp is at 12.5. But once that occurs, it's so impossible for that to go below by that much once taken outside. Because at that point it doesn't matter if it was filed with hot air or room temp air because it's room temp when measured. So it just brings us back to Tim temp air cannot lose that much pressure when taken out in those temps.

 

A ball at 12.5 at room temp is @ 11.4 when taken outside to 50 degrees. That's not debatable.

[OffensivelyPC]

They have played this so strong, I am now convinced if the pats are found guilty of deliberately tampering, ie, the ball boy did it under directions of someone, the only reasonable outcome is Kraft has to step down, hand off to his son. His son would have to fire BB, and cut Brady.

 

Plus whatever penalty assessed by the league.   

 

My take on the demanded apology is not that there is an investigation in as much as how its been handled with "leaks"  

Even that seems harsh, if not unprecedented.  I mean, I wouldn't mind as a Colts fan, but I wouldnt' expect everyone to basically step down or get fired.  I think the punishment would be one of the harshest, if not harshest, handed down in NFL history were it proven that the Pats were found guilty of tampering given their previous violation, though. 

 

As for the leaks, as much fun as they might be to discuss, we'll see what the Wells report uncovers.  Right now, it's just reports based on anonymous sources.  We all saw how that turned out for the Ray Rice audio recording.  There may be a nugget of truth in some of these deflate gate leaks, completely true or false.  Until they're substantiated, they're just rumors.  I think all that anyone can confirm at this point is that the Patriot footballs were somewhere between 1-2 PSI below the acceptable limits and the ball boy went into a secluded bathroom for 90 seconds.  The rest is either uncorroborated or hearsay.  So we'll see.

[Hoosier]

They have played this so strong, I am now convinced if the pats are found guilty of deliberately tampering, ie, the ball boy did it under directions of someone, the only reasonable outcome is Kraft has to step down, hand off to his son. His son would have to fire BB, and cut Brady.

 

Even as someone who doesn't like the Patriots, I think that's probably extreme and unlikely.

Personally, if the type of guilt you described is found, I would think that lenghty (ie, season-long) suspensions would be in order for Belichick and/or Brady.  Whomever was complicit. 

I can see the argument for booting Belichick for a second confirmed cheating violation.  But cutting Brady would be extreme, and forcing Kraft to step down, just for running his mouth, would be way too much.

[da_pats_troll]

Even that seems harsh, if not unprecedented.  I mean, I wouldn't mind as a Colts fan, but I wouldnt' expect everyone to basically step down or get fired.  I think the punishment would be one of the harshest, if not harshest, handed down in NFL history were it proven that the Pats were found guilty of tampering given their previous violation, though. 

 

 

 

 

Even as someone who doesn't like the Patriots, I think that's probably extreme and unlikely.

 

 

I think that's what I would demand as a fan OF the pats before I could really be a big fan again. Would I follow them, sure. but would I now buy the paraphernalia, make sure my sunday's are clear during the season...probably not.  

[Hoosier]

I think that's what I would demand as a fan OF the pats before I could really be a big fan again. Would I follow them, sure. but would I now buy the paraphernalia, make sure my sunday's are clear during the season...probably not.  

Wow.  Well, that's some admirable and refreshing honesty.

[OffensivelyPC]

I think that's what I would demand as a fan OF the pats before I could really be a big fan again. Would I follow them, sure. but would I now buy the paraphernalia, make sure my sunday's are clear during the season...probably not.  

Maybe I would feel the same way about the Colts if the roles were reversed.  Hard to say.  At the very least, I'd be extremely disappointed in my team as well.  I sure as heck wouldn't defend their actions - and I'm not saying you have been.  In fact, you've been the most reasonable Pats fan in these discussions.  I'm cool with Pats fans supporting their team and making arguments in favor.  I think all any one supporting one argument can ask is that the person on the other side of the fence accept and acknowledge the alternative.  Reasonable minds can disagree.  I mean, besides cheeseburgers, muscle cars, guns, and winning, what's more American than dissent?

[Archer]

Deflating 11 balls in 90 seconds can be done easily, especially if you are someone who does it on a regular basis.

 

It'd be very easy.  All you have do is stick an inflation needle in for a couple of seconds per ball.  With a little practice, I bet an equipment manager could get it down to whatever PSI he wanted without any kind of measuring device,,,

[jvan1973]

A ball at 12.5 at room temp is @ 11.4 when taken outside to 50 degrees. That's not debatable.

actually, it is debatable. The manufacturer of the balls says otherwise

[da_pats_troll]

actually, it is debatable. The manufacturer of the balls says otherwise

 

No, its not. its high school physics.

 

The manufacturer was saying the balls would stay inflated for 2 years. That's true. They don't leak. Its a fine distinction, and I don't think he fully understood the question. 

[jvan1973]

No, its not. its high school physics.

The manufacturer was saying the balls would stay inflated for 2 years. That's true. They don't leak. Its a fine distinction, and I don't think he fully understood the question.

I'm quite sure the manufacture of the balls understood the question very well. If you think the wilson corporation isn't on top of this situation you are crazy.

[da_pats_troll]

I'm quite sure the manufacture of the balls understood the question very well. If you think the wilson corporation isn't on top of this situation you are crazy.

 

and I am quite sure that a basic law of physics is correct.

[dw49]

No, its not. its high school physics.

 

The manufacturer was saying the balls would stay inflated for 2 years. That's true. They don't leak. Its a fine distinction, and I don't think he fully understood the question. 

 

 

Here's an excerpt I found on the subject ... 

 

 

Goff, who is the author of the interesting Gold Medal Physics book, also notes that when and where the balls were tested before the games matters. If done indoors, as is NFL protocol, then the deflation might not be a surprise. While he cautions that he can't speculate as to what happened, certain factors can impact the PSI measurement.

So it might be the weather, or it might just be some flaws in the mechanisms and environment for testing the balls before the game, but it doesn't rule out someone manually letting the air out. 

“Where deflate-gate gets sticky is that retested balls were found to be at lower pressures," Goff said. "As long as the retesting was done in the same environmental conditions as the referee's initial pre-game test, the most probable way for the pressure to be lower, assuming no leaks due to tears, is for air to have been let out. 

[jvan1973]

and I am quite sure that a basic law of physics is correct.

other than the fact many scientist have said a temperature difference of 26 degrees isn't enough for it to drop even 1 psi in an hour and a half.

[AndreRison]

I think everyone is assuming the investigators didn't get the balls back up to room temp before they tested them. We don't know that.

If they did let them get back to room temp, which I think by the end of the game they would have been, then that is why the investigation didn't end right there. I think if this is the case, then it wouldn't matter what comes out in the report, they would know something nefarious went down.

If the only thing they found was the 90 second bathroom break, then that would explain the "leak" that the ball boy was the prime suspect.

[ColtsBlueFL]

The point being, of course, that he wasn't in there nearly long enough to have deflated a dozen balls. He might just had had to take a leak.

 

Oh he took a leak alright... but the only 'junk' involved was this-

[ColtsBlueFL]

Thats accurate for sure. But why then do the strong denial pressers. If the pats thought the vid had even a chance to incriminate them, why not just keep saying, we are co operating and waiting for the outcome, cant comment? Thats what has me so confused about how the Pats are handling their end.

 

They want to get followers on their side before the big game. They do not want the whole country against them in Asterisk Bowl I

[da_pats_troll]

other than the fact many scientist have said a temperature difference of 26 degrees isn't enough for it to drop even 1 psi in an hour and a half.

 

OffensivlyPC and I did the math earlier in the thread. Going from 72 to 50 is a 1.1 PSI drop.

[jvan1973]

OffensivlyPC and I did the math earlier in the thread. Going from 72 to 50 is a 1.1 PSI drop.

forgive me if i don't buy your math. I'll go with the experts

[da_pats_troll]

forgive me if i don't buy your math. I'll go with the experts

 

Feel free to point out any errors in it. 

[bababooey]

I think that's what I would demand as a fan OF the pats before I could really be a big fan again. Would I follow them, sure. but would I now buy the paraphernalia, make sure my sunday's are clear during the season...probably not.  

I appreciate you saying that. I am a NY sports fan aside from the Colts (great grandpa lived in Baltimore before moving to the NY/CT and passed his fandom down). As a Yanks fan, it disgusts me that we have Alex Rodriguez on our team, same with Pineda for the pine tar thing. The only reason I went to a game last year was for Jeter but now that he is gone I won't be financially supporting them for a while as long as there are guys there that make an embarrassment of the team's history.

[dw49]

Feel free to point out any errors in it. 

 

 

Just too much we don't know at this point in time.

 

1) The question Goff asks..."As long as the retesting was done in the same environmental conditions as the referee's initial pre-game test, the most probable way for the pressure to be lower, assuming no leaks due to tears, is for air to have been let out. 

 

 

2) What air (inside or outside) did they use at half time to bring the balls back to 12.5. Maybe outside and that would explain why the balls were OK when tested at the game's end ?

 

3) How much were the balls under at half time.

 

4) How much of this is due to past complaints of this .

 

5) Could the rubbing of the ball actually raise the PSI a pound ?

[da_pats_troll]

Just too much we don't know at this point in time.

 

1) The question Goff asks..."As long as the retesting was done in the same environmental conditions as the referee's initial pre-game test, the most probable way for the pressure to be lower, assuming no leaks due to tears, is for air to have been let out. 

 

 

2) What air (inside or outside) did they use at half time to bring the balls back to 12.5. Maybe outside and that would explain why the balls were OK when tested at the game's end ?

 

3) How much were the balls under at half time.

 

4) How much of this is due to past complaints of this .

 

5) Could the rubbing of the ball actually raise the PSI a pound ?

 

I agree wholeheartedly. There are lots of variables that we do not know.

 

What I dont understand is some ppl dont even get the concept of pressure drops due to temperature drops. If the balls do not obey the laws of thermodynamics, we might as well believe they dont obey the laws of gravity also

[jvan1973]

I agree wholeheartedly. There are lots of variables that we do not know.

What I dont understand is some ppl dont even get the concept of pressure drops due to temperature drops. If the balls do not obey the laws of thermodynamics, we might as well believe they dont obey the laws of gravity also

apparently the colts balls don't obey the laws of thermodynamics

[dw49]

I agree wholeheartedly. There are lots of variables that we do not know.

 

What I dont understand is some ppl dont even get the concept of pressure drops due to temperature drops. If the balls do not obey the laws of thermodynamics, we might as well believe they dont obey the laws of gravity also

 

 

Go play basketball outside in Central NY in January. I did that a bit when I was a kid. You could hardly dribble the ball after a while

[da_pats_troll]

apparently the colts balls don't obey the laws of thermodynamics

 

Sure they do. If you had bothered to look @ the math, you would of seen.

[Cynjin]

apparently the colts balls don't obey the laws of thermodynamics

Didn't you know? There was an atmospheric inversion that occurred at Gillette stadium during the game that resulted in completely different conditions on the Colts sideline. That is why none of the Colts footballs were found to have lost air pressure.

[Cynjin]

Go play basketball outside in Central NY in January. I did that a bit when I was a kid. You could hardly dribble the ball after a while

dw49, where in Central NY?

[da_pats_troll]

Didn't you know? There was an atmospheric inversion that occurred at Gillette stadium during the game that resulted in completely different conditions on the Colts sideline. That is why none of the Colts footballs were found to have lost air pressure.

 

Where does it say they never lost pressure? They were still "compliant", since its a range, they can still lose pressure and be compliant. 

[jvan1973]

Sure they do. If you had bothered to look @ the math, you would of seen.

can i get a link to what the colts balls were at during the pregame inspection?

[da_pats_troll]

can i get a link to what the colts balls were at during the pregame inspection?

 

we don't have that info. Only that they met the spec between 12.5 and 13.5 psi.  a ball @ 13.5 psi would drop to 12.3 psi under the same conditions. Not exactly in the spec, but within the margin of error that they could be said to be in compliance. 

[dw49]

dw49, where in Central NY?

 

Born 1949 Canastota , NY and lived there until college. After graduation lived  in Onieda and Manlius NY until 2005. All 3 of those are within 20 miles of Syracuse. Retired at 55 and moved to Huntington Beach Ca.

[bababooey]

I think it's obvious the balls were intentionally deflated, enough with the math and physics and science projects. No Colt balls were deflated and it's been debunked that 11 of 12 to go down by that much after the refs approved them after correctly checking them (which the ref has been adamant about) and not affect the Colt balls is impossible based on the conditions.

 

A ball boy took them to the bathroom in a bag that you can completely unzip. It's not out of the ordinary for a guy who has done this plenty of times to take 90 seconds to stick a pin in 11 balls and let air out of each one in a few seconds. Obviously it's in the one room there is no camera in, the Patriots are smart and devious like this. I wouldn't put it past them to inflate the balls in a sauna so they naturally deflated by kickoff but the next best idea is to have a competent ball boy who has done this before take them where there isn't a camera and very quickly deflate them one by one. Would like to see the tapes (if they still exist) of this guy to see if he always takes the balls into the bathroom with him (aside from the fact it's disgusting) during home games.

 

That being said, this has officially been flipped on the NFL. I commend the Patriots for making the NFL look like stooges, demanding apologies like they weren't the ones who have been caught cheating before. They came off the plane last night and flipped it on the NFL and stonewalled the media completely. Ted Wells comes out and said its going to take WEEKS and suggests we don't talk about it. If the Patriots win, the NFL will also not come down hard to not make their champs look bad (similar to Spygate when Goodell destroyed the evidence that implicated the winners of 3 recent superbowls). Not looking good for the NFL.

 

Edit: A guy posted a pic of his SB credentials on his facebook and the NFL found him after an HOUR and stripped him of his credentials. If you had a superbowl viewing party at a church in walla walla washington expect a cease and desist letter the next morning. This has become a joke that the NFL have shown repeatedly how incompetent they are.

[Cynjin]

Where does it say they never lost pressure? They were still "compliant", since its a range, they can still lose pressure and be compliant.

Where does it say the Colts footballs lost pressure? I have not seen any of the data from either side, only that it was reported that the 11 of the 12 footballs the Patriots use in the first half were more that 2psi under-inflated and that the 12th football was still less than 12.5psi. I would like to see the data on the Patriots and Colts footballs when they were initially tested before the game, at half time and since they switched out the Patriots footballs at halftime, what was the psi data after the game. Also, even if one was to accept the point of the Colts footballs were at the upper limit, how was it that the Patriots footballs lost over 2psi but the Colts footballs lost at most 1psi?

[Cynjin]

Born 1949 Canastota , NY and lived there until college. After graduation lived  in Onieda and Manlius NY until 2005. All 3 of those are within 20 miles of Syracuse. Retired at 55 and moved to Huntington Beach Ca.

I went to high school in Syracuse, NY. I am familiar with the area so I was curious when you mentioned Central, NY. Also, nice to be able to retire at 55, good job by you.

[dw49]

I went to high school in Syracuse, NY. I am familiar with the area so I was curious when you mentioned Central, NY. Also, nice to be able to retire at 55, good job by you.

 

Which high school. I'm pretty familiar with them all as I coached a lot of summer baseball ( both Connie Mack and Babe Ruth) for high school aged kids. Then I did a college age team , so had players from various Syracuse high schools. Plus my son attended Manlius and we played mostly teams from Syracuse

[Clem-Dog]

Lol...guess I'm not surprised. 90 seconds to fish 12 footballs out of a bag, deflate them all to the same amount, re-bag them and head to the field. Folks - we've reached the "Big-Foot is real" stage of this phony conspiracy.

If he didn't switch the balls outright and actually deflated them himself, then it's totally logical to believe he had help. It is certainly possible for 3 people to deflate 12 balls in 90 seconds.

It's also possible for one person to do it. All it takes is practice to refine the process.

The balls were altered by the Patriots. In due time fans like you will not be able to enjoy your current success. History is not kind to this ilk of competitor.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Stats Show the New England Patriots Became Nearly Fumble-Proof After 2006 Rule Change Proposed by Tom Brady

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-sharp/stats-show-the-new-englan_b_6555802.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

 

This article has a very compelling graph showing how everyone else's fumble rates stayed basically the same but the Patriots fumble rate plummeted

[Carl Dzienkiewicz]

who cares? the PATS could have beaten the Colts with a bowling ball