Will the Defense be drastically better?

[AntonMcG]

Oh, and we have one legitimate pass-rushing threat.

[ColtStronger]

There it is ^.  Totally agree.

My concern is having someone other than Mathis putting pressure on the QB.  I don't think we can expect him to have the same type of year.  And I agree with others, a healthy Toler makes a huge difference.  But is there such a thing as a healthy Toler?

Unfortunately I don't think we have another guy that's capable of putting up 10+ sacks, and at his age its unlikely he will do it again this year.  One thing I do absolutely love is that the players attitudes and work ethic.  Everybody is always fighting and refuse to give up.  In that aspect the defense can cover up issues from athleticism standpoint.  That's why so many comebacks have been possible.

 

I'd also like to see a healthy Toler also.  The beginning of the season he was defending just as good as Vontae and he was getting int's.  That injury along with Landry (who led the league in tackles before his injury) really put a damper on our defense.  If they stay healthy and play to their ability our defense is almost as scary as our offense.

[throwing BBZ]

May I add that we have had huge issues with being unable to close off run lanes, and our Linebacking corp having absolutely zero coverage skills.

 

I think the run defense has been addressed to an existent, but I sitll think our LBs are in trouble in coverage.

 

       BAD Run D.

   Moala has NEVER been anything against the run, Franklin, Mathews, Sheppard were Weak, Walden, certainly for half the season, Mathis at BEST a slight - against the run, Werner made few plays, Angerer not much on Quality tackles, Redding had a lot of mediocre play against the run and got smoked in the playoffs. Ugh!

 Now we look and see, who in that group are we counting on this season.  A Big Change is coming!

 

 JMO, but i feel confident Mathis and Redding should/will be eased out of so many 1st down opportunities.

 

 LB coverage. It is DQ Jacksons strength supposedly. McNary should suplant Freeman in many passing situations. But i do expect Freeman to improve a little with better players in front of him and a little better pass rush. Hard to count on a Rookie but they sound very high on Newsomes versatility too. Lots of reason to believe that come playoff time...

[AntonMcG]

Unfortunately I don't think we have another guy that's capable of putting up 10+ sacks, and at his age its unlikely he will do it again this year.  One thing I do absolutely love is that the players attitudes and work ethic.  Everybody is always fighting and refuse to give up.  In that aspect the defense can cover up issues from athleticism standpoint.  That's why so many comebacks have been possible.

 

I'd also like to see a healthy Toler also.  The beginning of the season he was defending just as good as Vontae and he was getting int's.  That injury along with Landry (who led the league in tackles before his injury) really put a damper on our defense.  If they stay healthy and play to their ability our defense is almost as scary as our offense.

 

Sorry, but no. Toler had a very good game against Oakland which I think people have got too hung up on (especially considering Pryor was throwing the ball.)

 

The next game against Miami, he was picked on. Toler has got ability, but he was grossly patchy even before he was injured.

[AntonMcG]

       BAD Run D.

   Moala has NEVER been anything against the run, Franklin, Mathews, Sheppard were Weak, Walden, certainly for half the season, Mathis at BEST a slight - against the run, Werner made few plays, Angerer not much on Quality tackles, Redding had a lot of mediocre play against the run and got smoked in the playoffs. Ugh!

 Now we look and see, who in that group are we counting on this season.  A Big Change is coming!

 

 JMO, but i feel confident Mathis and Redding should/will be eased out of so many 1st down opportunities.

 

 LB coverage. It is DQ Jacksons strength supposedly. McNary should suplant Freeman in many passing situations. But i do expect Freeman to improve a little with better players in front of him and a little better pass rush. Hard to count on a Rookie but they sound very high on Newsomes versatility too. Lots of reason to believe that come playoff time...

 

True, which makes me wonder why so many are getting hung up on him helping us stop the run.

[In Luck We Trust]

   Considering we were a top 25ish D last season, a jump to top 15 is Drastic jump IMO. 

 And some laughed at those Homers that looked at the #`s after a Tough Oakland & Miami and were seeing a top 5-6 D.

 One had to be Homer BLIND to the personnel involved.

 

   If the run D was better to begin with... Yikes!

 In game one Oaklands QB ran all around us.

 Game 2, Miami with a weak line and a rookie QB got 100 + rushing.

 Game 3, SF, Gore had 80+ yards 7.5 ypc almost in the 1st half, it was embarassing watching Waldren. Mysteriously quit running the 2nd half.

 Game 4, Seattle pounded us on the ground for over 200 yds rushong

 Game 5, the Jags didn`t show up

 Game 6, Chargers RB had 100+ at 4.6 ypc

 

 So, given how our D struggled to stop the run All season and our LB`s were weak in pass coverage All season, and that that

IS going to Change, we should see a drastic improvement in our D.

 

  You don`t seem to KNOW A Jones. He has yet to be a Mayhem player so i`m baffled you chose that word.

 He is one of the Best run stuffers there is and gets SOME Push, a few sacks, more of the coverage type.

 

 Dq Jackson does get his tackles in the run game but there are questions about how many yards are given up before he makes them. Think Angerer. His Big Value is considered to be his pass coverage. I do agree he will surely be where he needs to be more consistentely than Angerer & Sheppard, so yes a plus..

 

 LB`er depth. I believe in McNary and that he can start and be solid. Not sure Sheppard will even make the roster because of An Jackson, but he actually did show decent improvement and should be better in year 2.

 We have VG depth along the D-Line and dumping weak links Mathews, Franklin, and moving Moala to the bottom of the depth chart is a Huge difference.

 

 It is true the injury Bug really hurts All teams and can seriously affect how good you are come Playoff time. So....thats FB!

Miami's QB was not a rookie. it was his 2nd year in the league. 

[Adonai]

Feel free to elaborate

 

No, not really worth the time. Especially when you consider that you're not so much overcome any sort of honest ignorance of the facts and more so taking on entrenched personal opinions. That is usually a dead end. And I do not care enough about it to want to climb that mountain. Sometimes, you have to just let people be.

[In Luck We Trust]

Sorry, but no. Toler had a very good game against Oakland which I think people have got too hung up on (especially considering Pryor was throwing the ball.)

 

The next game against Miami, he was picked on. Toler has got ability, but he was grossly patchy even before he was injured.

i was never sold on toler nor his contract he was given. def. not worth what he got. I think we should give a 2nd rounder to KC for Brandon Flowers since it was reported they are willing to trade him. 

[AntonMcG]

Arthur Jones should help the pass rush

And I look for McNary & Werner to step up this year

I don't really fault Walden cause his job is to set the edge. But hopefully they let him rush the passer more. When he did rush, he had some good plays

 

Jones has offered little in pass-rushing thus far in his career... what makes you think he will start now?

 

Why would Walden always be setting the edge when you only set the edge against the run? He had plenty of pass-rushing opportunities, he just was not very good at it.

[throwing BBZ]

True, which makes me wonder why so many are getting hung up on him helping us stop the run.

 

 Well, he has Great Experience and cognitive skills to set the D, he does make a Lot of tackles, and when you are comparing him too....

 he should be a nice Plus.

[AntonMcG]

 Well, he has Great Experience and cognitive skills to set the D, he does make a Lot of tackles, and when you are comparing him too....

 he should be a nice Plus.

 

He is a prototypical MLB in a 4-3, so we may not be giving him the best opportunity to succeed. But as you said, he is bound to be an upgrade over what we had.

[In Luck We Trust]

Unfortunately I don't think we have another guy that's capable of putting up 10+ sacks, and at his age its unlikely he will do it again this year.  One thing I do absolutely love is that the players attitudes and work ethic.  Everybody is always fighting and refuse to give up.  In that aspect the defense can cover up issues from athleticism standpoint.  That's why so many comebacks have been possible.

 

I'd also like to see a healthy Toler also.  The beginning of the season he was defending just as good as Vontae and he was getting int's.  That injury along with Landry (who led the league in tackles before his injury) really put a damper on our defense.  If they stay healthy and play to their ability our defense is almost as scary as our offense.

although i will agree that when toler went down along with Landry it did cause a turning point (for the worst) in our defense, but he is still not worth the money he got from the colts. over paid avg at best CB

[throwing BBZ]

Miami's QB was not a rookie. it was his 2nd year in the league. 

 

 Oops, brain fart. he did come in with Andrew. I actually did think about that and still farted. Thanks tho, and i guess that wasn`t particularly material to the point anyway.

[Adonai]

He is a prototypical MLB in a 4-3

 

You're thinking of Pat Angerer.

[AntonMcG]

You're thinking of Pat Angerer.

 

Oh am I?

 

No, I'm not.

[Superman]

Jones has offered little in pass-rushing thus far in his career... what makes you think he will start now?

 

Why would Walden always be setting the edge when you only set the edge against the run? He had plenty of pass-rushing opportunities, he just was not very good at it.

 

Jones is a productive pass rusher as a 3-4 lineman. He had 3 solo sacks and 2 half sacks last year, with 5 hits and 15 hurries on 238 pass rushing snaps. As an aggregate, that's 10th in the league among 3-4 linemen. He was even better in 2012.

 

So he's not going to start now. He's going to continue being a pretty good pressure man as a 3-4 lineman.

[TKnight24]

Jones is a productive pass rusher as a 3-4 lineman. He had 3 solo sacks and 2 half sacks last year, with 5 hits and 15 hurries on 238 pass rushing snaps. As an aggregate, that's 10th in the league among 3-4 linemen. He was even better in 2012.

So he's not going to start now. He's going to continue being a pretty good pressure man as a 3-4 lineman.

Just saved me some battery life on my android phone for typing that out so I didn't have to.

This forum will probably drain the 47% remaining I do have left but I'd like to make each post count

[throwing BBZ]

although i will agree that when toler went down along with Landry it did cause a turning point (for the worst) in our defense, but he is still not worth the money he got from the colts. over paid avg at best CB

 

 Please remember, Grigson gave him a prove it each year deal with Almost No guaranteed $$$. To do that the guy got what YOU consider to be, a Higher Annual salary. He was a difference maker, but you can bet if he wants a 3rd year he will surely have to have a rather HEALTHY, productive season.

The guy did get thrown at a lot, QB`s like throwing to the right, and well you know, Vontae.

DRC got paid $8-9M last season, so i don`t feel $5M for a FA Press CB Grigs liked was out of line. Just sayin'.

[Superman]

 Please remember, Grigson gave him a prove it each year deal with Almost No guaranteed $$$. To do that the guy got what YOU consider to be, a Higher Annual salary. He was a difference maker, but you can bet if he wants a 3rd year he will surely have to have a rather HEALTHY, productive season.

The guy did get thrown at a lot, QB`s like throwing to the right, and well you know, Vontae.

DRC got paid $8-9M last season, so i don`t feel $5M for a FA Press CB Grigs liked was out of line. Just sayin'.

 

The CB market was weird last season. Toler's contract did seem out of whack. But it normalized this year, with a lot of guys getting a lot more than he got last year. So maybe we could have done better than Toler in 2013, but putting his contract into perspective, it's not overpriced. 

 

He didn't live up to it last year, but that's a different story. But $5m/year for a starting corner isn't out of bounds at all.

[AntonMcG]

Jones is a productive pass rusher as a 3-4 lineman. He had 3 solo sacks and 2 half sacks last year, with 5 hits and 15 hurries on 238 pass rushing snaps. As an aggregate, that's 10th in the league among 3-4 linemen. He was even better in 2012.

 

So he's not going to start now. He's going to continue being a pretty good pressure man as a 3-4 lineman.

 

How are you aggregating them... because I don't have him anywhere near tenth. For instance in hurries he is 24th, in hits he is joint 17th and in sacks he is joint 11th. Those are average to below average numbers.

 

Redding has 5 sacks, 6 hits and 20 hurries last year, they play the same position on the same side, and Jones was routinely rotated in obvious passing situations by the Ravens... which is telling.

[AntonMcG]

Just saved me some battery life on my android phone for typing that out so I didn't have to.

This forum will probably drain the 47% remaining I do have left but I'd like to make each post count

 

lol, yeah, you knew the answer.

[BlueShoe]

The CB market was weird last season. Toler's contract did seem out of whack. But it normalized this year, with a lot of guys getting a lot more than he got last year. So maybe we could have done better than Toler in 2013, but putting his contract into perspective, it's not overpriced. 

 

He didn't live up to it last year, but that's a different story. But $5m/year for a starting corner isn't out of bounds at all.

 

I agree. I just wished we would have had given that money to Brent Grimes.

 

He was coming off an injury, but he was one of the better steals of the off-season last year. 

 

Bill Polian told us that he was one of the best free agent corners on the market.  

[Tom Moroney]

So, we just signed J. Newsome to 4-yr rookie contract, and after seeing the footage today of him on the rookie camp video I understand why.  He looks to be as ever present as the man Robert Mathis

[dgambill]

We're a top 10 DEFENSE! And the only reason we're not any higher is due to youth.

Didn't we have one of the oldest defenses in the league last year? We had youth at a couple spots but for the most part our starters were pretty much veterens. I think we have to be careful because our best pass rusher is pretty old...hopefully he stays healthy...MLB is pretty old...and we have basically a 1st year safety....we should be better...Arthur Jones will be a big factor in that...but if Toler can't stay on the field, Mathis sees a drop off in production and Howell doesn't play well....we still have question marks. If we can be a top 15 defense...our offense should be significantly more consistant...top 10...we should have a good squad....it also doesn't hurt having the easiest strength of schedule....THAT should be big for us trying to get a bye.

[Slick_Rick]

I think as to if the defense gets better or not depends strongly on the play of who ever starts at safety alongside Landry.  

I personally think that with an improved front seven (at least on paper), the safety next to Landry will have a much easier task. I think much of our past problems was that we relied too much on our safeties in run support. If we can stop letting running backs get 7-8 yards passed the line of scrimmage before they are touched, our safeties will be more effective in the pass game. 

[Derakynn]

People dont understand here that on defense something has to give. Toler was that person when he was here. It was completely obvious when on the field he elevated everyone else's play. Whether it was because everyone was comfortable with him or whatever, the defense was much better with him in.

[NewColtsFan]

Will this defense be "drastically" better?    No.    Will it be marginally better?    Probably.

 

We've added some nice pieces,  but we still have very few play makers....  very few difference makers.... 

 

Our defense should be improved....  but the question becomes...   how much?

[Steven Hall]

I think the defense will be better. I hope to have a great season !

[Superman]

How are you aggregating them... because I don't have him anywhere near tenth. For instance in hurries he is 24th, in hits he is joint 17th and in sacks he is joint 11th. Those are average to below average numbers.

 

Redding has 5 sacks, 6 hits and 20 hurries last year, they play the same position on the same side, and Jones was routinely rotated in obvious passing situations by the Ravens... which is telling.

 

For 3-4 defensive linemen? He might be 24th in hurries among all defensive linemen, but then you're comparing him to guys like Gerald McCoy, Geno Atkins, Kyle Williams, etc. I'm getting my numbers from PFF.

 

And Redding played 120 more pass rush snaps than Jones did last year, resulting in just a few more pressures. 

 

The Ravens rotated their linemen differently than we rotated ours. They weren't taking Jones out because he can't pressure the QB. He can. He's not JJ Watt or Calais Campbell, but he's capable of getting pressure. I disagree with the comment that he offered little as a pass rusher.

[Superman]

I agree. I just wished we would have had given that money to Brent Grimes.

 

He was coming off an injury, but he was one of the better steals of the off-season last year. 

 

Bill Polian told us that he was one of the best free agent corners on the market.

 

We definitely could have done better than Toler, but I understand why Grimes wasn't on the menu.

[BlueShoe]

We definitely could have done better than Toler, but I understand why Grimes wasn't on the menu.

 

And just think; Powers played 16 games last year for the first time in his career. 

[Superman]

And just think; Powers played 16 games last year for the first time in his career. 

 

Yeah, well, that happens.

[BlueShoe]

Yeah, well, that happens.

 

It did happened to us.

 

Let an injury prone player walk who stays healthy after he departs.

 

Sign an injury prone player, who stays injured. 

[AntonMcG]

For 3-4 defensive linemen? He might be 24th in hurries among all defensive linemen, but then you're comparing him to guys like Gerald McCoy, Geno Atkins, Kyle Williams, etc. I'm getting my numbers from PFF.

 

And Redding played 120 more pass rush snaps than Jones did last year, resulting in just a few more pressures. 

 

The Ravens rotated their linemen differently than we rotated ours. They weren't taking Jones out because he can't pressure the QB. He can. He's not JJ Watt or Calais Campbell, but he's capable of getting pressure. I disagree with the comment that he offered little as a pass rusher.

 

No, he is 24th amongst 3-4 DEs. I too am getting my numbers from PFF, I have a premium account... just order 3-4 DEs by QB hurries, he is 24th.

 

Redding had 105 more snaps total than Jones in the regular season, I do not have info on whether he rushed the passer on all of those snaps but I highly doubt it. I don't think Jones offers us anything we did not have with Redding already in terms of pass-rush, he is not improving our pass rush in my mind.

 

I don't know if the Ravens having a different rotation is justifying them bringing him out in obvious passing situations, you leave your best pass rushers on the field and a big-bodied DE who can open up holes is usually one of them, that didn't happen with Jones.

 

I am delighted with the signing, don't get me wrong, my favourite of the off-season in fact... but he offers us nothing more in a pass-rushing capacity.

[Superman]

No, he is 24th amongst 3-4 DEs. I too am getting my numbers from PFF, I have a premium account... just order 3-4 DEs by QB hurries, he is 24th.

 

Redding had 105 more snaps total than Jones in the regular season, I do not have info on whether he rushed the passer on all of those snaps but I highly doubt it. I don't think Jones offers us anything we did not have with Redding already in terms of pass-rush, he is not improving our pass rush in my mind.

 

I don't know if the Ravens having a different rotation is justifying them bringing him out in obvious passing situations, you leave your best pass rushers on the field and a big-bodied DE who can open up holes is usually one of them, that didn't happen with Jones.

 

I am delighted with the signing, don't get me wrong, my favourite of the off-season in fact... but he offers us nothing more in a pass-rushing capacity.

 

You're looking at total hurries. I'm looking at productivity. It's under the signature stats. They basically take the total amount of hurries and divide by total pass rush snaps, but they do weight it toward sacks. (They also count half sacks as a sack snap. So if you have 4 total sacks, but that's 8 half sacks, you actually get a higher productivity rating.)

 

We didn't rotate our DL exclusively based on situation, and neither do the Ravens. A lot of our DL rotations were just first unit / second unit, which I don't like. That means we had guys like Rico Mathews on the field, and now, that will be a mixture of Redding and Jones taking those snaps, with Hughes rotating in as well. That's a better set of players than we had last year, and they're all more capable in pass rushing situations than Mathews. Take his 284 pass rush snaps and divide them between Jones and Hughes, and yes, that's a better pass rush from our DL.

[colts8718]

It better be or Luck is going to have to perform some miracles again. Honestly I don't see it not with Pagano as coach he was brought here as a defensive coach and to many times his team was not ready

[AntonMcG]

You're looking at total hurries. I'm looking at productivity. It's under the signature stats. They basically take the total amount of hurries and divide by total pass rush snaps, but they do weight it toward sacks. (They also count half sacks as a sack snap. So if you have 4 total sacks, but that's 8 half sacks, you actually get a higher productivity rating.)

 

We didn't rotate our DL exclusively based on situation, and neither do the Ravens. A lot of our DL rotations were just first unit / second unit, which I don't like. That means we had guys like Rico Mathews on the field, and now, that will be a mixture of Redding and Jones taking those snaps, with Hughes rotating in as well. That's a better set of players than we had last year, and they're all more capable in pass rushing situations than Mathews. Take his 284 pass rush snaps and divide them between Jones and Hughes, and yes, that's a better pass rush from our DL.

 

 

A smaller sample size is not a fair reflection on productivity... the same measures could be used to argue why Russel Wilson has such a high QB Rating for much fewer throws. He has fairly modest pass-rushing numbers.

 

Ravens have arguably the most situationally-centric defensive rotation in the league, it is a system I have studied in depth due to it apparently being the basis for this defense (even though it's not in many ways). Jones is subbed out in all obvious pass rushing situations, that is very telling to me.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN3Ovvpjs6o

 

From that you can see that most of the sacks he get come from QB's holding onto the ball to long in a collapsed pocket... though he did have an impressive swim move on one.

 

I don't see him and Redding being on the field together, unless it is an obvious running down. And Moala is probably every bit as good a pass rusher is Jones is, maybe better. I realize we have a lot of rotation in here but I do not see him giving us more of a pass rush, and I doubt he will be in the game for many passing plays.

[AntonMcG]

You're looking at total hurries. I'm looking at productivity. It's under the signature stats. They basically take the total amount of hurries and divide by total pass rush snaps, but they do weight it toward sacks. (They also count half sacks as a sack snap. So if you have 4 total sacks, but that's 8 half sacks, you actually get a higher productivity rating.)

 

We didn't rotate our DL exclusively based on situation, and neither do the Ravens. A lot of our DL rotations were just first unit / second unit, which I don't like. That means we had guys like Rico Mathews on the field, and now, that will be a mixture of Redding and Jones taking those snaps, with Hughes rotating in as well. That's a better set of players than we had last year, and they're all more capable in pass rushing situations than Mathews. Take his 284 pass rush snaps and divide them between Jones and Hughes, and yes, that's a better pass rush from our DL.

 

 

And on the issue of Toler... did you see us as a better pass defense with him on the field? As I know you have watched all the games again recently, as have I...

 

It seems to me like he has created a myth of great corner play before he went down, when I would argue this was largely down to the first game of the year.

[BrentMc11]

No, not really worth the time. Especially when you consider that you're not so much overcome any sort of honest ignorance of the facts and more so taking on entrenched personal opinions. That is usually a dead end. And I do not care enough about it to want to climb that mountain. Sometimes, you have to just let people be.

And here I was just wanting your opinion...

[Superman]

A smaller sample size is not a fair reflection on productivity... the same measures could be used to argue why Russel Wilson has such a high QB Rating for much fewer throws. He has fairly modest pass-rushing numbers.

 

It's raw stats vs advanced metrics. Jones' 238 pass rush snaps is not a meager sample size. It's not like 2 hurries in 10 snaps, vs. 15 hurries in 150 snaps. The point is that the pressures he gets in pass rush situations, as a percentage, is good enough for 10th in the league among 3-4 linemen. 

 

Ravens have arguably the most situationally-centric defensive rotation in the league, it is a system I have studied in depth due to it apparently being the basis for this defense (even though it's not in many ways). Jones is subbed out in all obvious pass rushing situations, that is very telling to me.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN3Ovvpjs6o

 

From that you can see that most of the sacks he get come from QB's holding onto the ball to long in a collapsed pocket... though he did have an impressive swim move on one.

 

I don't see him and Redding being on the field together, unless it is an obvious running down. And Moala is probably every bit as good a pass rusher is Jones is, maybe better. I realize we have a lot of rotation in here but I do not see him giving us more of a pass rush, and I doubt he will be in the game for many passing plays.

 

 

The Ravens do sub situationally, but not exclusively. And they don't sub Jones out in all obvious pass rushing situations. Not even close. They have more depth at DL than we did, so taking him out on passing downs yields to guys like Ngata and Canty, not Rico Mathews.

 

Jones was 10th in pass rush productivity last year, and Redding was 16th. Both rated better than RJF and Moala, and Hughes only got 17 pass rush snaps last year. They are arguably our two best pass rushing linemen. If it were me, I'd have them on the field together on passing downs frequently.

 

And even if you disagree, I can't imagine that you think Mathews was better in his 251 pass rush snaps than whatever mix we use in passing situations next year. I don't think it's hard to see our DL rotation as being better than it was last year. And I think Jones is a big part of that. IMO. We'll see how it goes.