Barnwell's Bad Contracts -- two Colts listed

[Superman]

Cherilus was a big stretch, have to agree 100 percent on that one.  He is going to be a HUGE disappointment and at a boat-load of cost.  Vollmer will make Cherilus look very pedestrian, VERY. u can mark these words and come back and make me eat crow---i'll remember.

 

Second highest rated right tackle in free agency, has been more consistent and healthier than Vollmer over the past two seasons, and is set to make $0.16m/year more than Vollmer.

 

But I always love it when people make these crystal ball predictions on a message board.

[Superman]

"You cant say anyone is overpaid till the end of this season." I understand what your saying but I just dont agree, Taking that approach has led to some real problems at times with players who did not perform up to there contracts, look at what Flacco did during the regular season, Ozzie Newsome would have been ridiculed for paying Flacco the kinda of money he got post super bowl BEFORE Flacco actually had a great post season, The money is extremely different comparing Francois and Flacco but the idea is not, neithershowed the ability or production to justify the pay day they got, With that said, Francois is explosive, quick for a D Lineman. The athleticism and speed is there to get penetration and hold his ground but the production has not been there.

 

Agreed on RJF. If he's not a terror, he's not earning his $5.5m/year. 

[BOTT]

Cherilus was a big stretch, have to agree 100 percent on that one.  He is going to be a HUGE disappointment and at a boat-load of cost.  Vollmer will make Cherilus look very pedestrian, VERY. u can mark these words and come back and make me eat crow---i'll remember.

Vollmer has already had two back surgeries. Plus, blocking for Brady he usually doesn't have to block longer than 2 seconds.

[NewColtsFan]

Just to clarify, he DIDN'T include Erik Walden on his list. And I agree with that particular exclusion.

 

I had initially missed his comment about RJF playing nose tackle, so a demerit for Barnwell and a demerit for myself. I still agree with his overall point regarding RJF and the contract, however.

 

Yes.....   that is what I meant to write....    when I didn't see Walden's name on the list I rolled my eyes....

 

Sorry,  didn't mean to turn that upside down....

 

Not the end of the world....   I was just looking for certain things since Barnwell said he'd be talking about moves made by a certain team from the Midwest...    When he said that,  I thought he was going to really give it to the Colts...  so, when I didn't see Walden's name,  I confess that was a curveball I didn't see coming....

 

Not a biggie....  just something that threw me off....

[BOTT]

I don't want to give the writer points for not jumping on the bandwagon....   I thought that was easily the worst contract and it was the one I expected to see in the story.   When I did see it, I rolled my eyes...    Don't get me wrong,  I'm not complaining that we signed him...   I'm complaining that we signed him to a bad contract.   I think we paid over his value.   Even if you view it as one year and $4M.

 

 

Also, when he wrote that RJF was brought in to play Nose Tackle,  I thought that was another bad strike again him.   That was always his secondary position, not his primary position which was DE.

 

Personally,  I was underwhelmed.

 

But, like you and everyone else,  all will be forgiven if we make the post-season this year....

It's only a bad contract for Irsay's wallet. It's not like signing Walden prevented Grigson from signing other free agents.

[BOTT]

I don't want to give the writer points for not jumping on the bandwagon....   I thought that was easily the worst contract and it was the one I expected to see in the story.   When I did see it, I rolled my eyes...    Don't get me wrong,  I'm not complaining that we signed him...   I'm complaining that we signed him to a bad contract.   I think we paid over his value.   Even if you view it as one year and $4M.

 

 

Also, when he wrote that RJF was brought in to play Nose Tackle,  I thought that was another bad strike again him.   That was always his secondary position, not his primary position which was DE.

 

Personally,  I was underwhelmed.

 

But, like you and everyone else,  all will be forgiven if we make the post-season this year....

It's only a bad contract for Irsay's wallet. It's not like signing Walden prevented Grigson from signing other free agents.

[Superman]

Lets be honest, who saw free agency unfolding the way it did? I know I didnt. Grigson obviously knew exactly who he wanted and didnt let them leave Indianapolis the day free agency opened. Maybe if he knew he could get guys like Avril at 7.5, Asomugha at 3, and Vollmer at less than 7 mill per year a few weeks later, he might have opted to do so. But hindsight is 20/20. No sense in worrying or complaining about it now. Like many have said they all have very little guaranteed money. Lets just hope these guys can come in and help our team get to the next level!

 

Very good points. We went into the postseason with Cliff Avril demanding a $50m contract. I personally don't think Grigson would have touched him, even on the contract he got from Seattle. Vollmer was asking for $9m/year, and settled for the incentive-laden contract as he saw the free agent market drying up. I mentioned earlier that I don't think Andre Smith was an option for us. (Also worth noting, this year's free agency was kind of strange, with several guys who were expected to get big contracts getting stonewalled across the league.) The other tackle that went early was Jermon Bushrod, but he's a left tackle, and as such, got slightly more than Cherilus.

 

I don't think Grigson wanted older guys like Asomugha; he made comments about guys who were on the wrong side of 30, and the only player we signed in that category was Hasselbeck. There are several other older players or previously injured players that probably got crossed off Grigson's list as well, and probably a few character concern guys.

 

The one player I get the impression the team really wanted from the beginning is Cherilus, given how quickly they signed him, and how big a signing bonus they gave him. I'm concerned about the signing bonus because of his knees, but the talent is there. That's why I disagree with Barnwell's characterization of him as a "marginal talent." He was the second highest rated right tackle in the league last year. There's no question whether he's a good player. The question is whether he's going to stay healthy.

[Gavin]

Agreed on RJF. If he's not a terror, he's not earning his $5.5m/year. 

 

 

I want to be clear, Im obviously not expecting a ton of sacks. Thats just unrealistic but you obviously dont have to have a ton of sacks to be a player that a team absolutely must gameplan for, Thats a huge factor in it but being a disruption will occur alot more often then sack numbers show, That and if he is disruptive enough to start to draw double teams with any amount of consistency then he is doing his job. when I watch him play I see a penetrator and a guy that can give chase more then a guy that will hold his ground in run contain. In my opinion he would be best used in Stunts do to his quickness

[Superman]

Yes.....   that is what I meant to write....    when I didn't see Walden's name on the list I rolled my eyes....

 

Sorry,  didn't mean to turn that upside down....

 

Not the end of the world....   I was just looking for certain things since Barnwell said he'd be talking about moves made by a certain team from the Midwest...    When he said that,  I thought he was going to really give it to the Colts...  so, when I didn't see Walden's name,  I confess that was a curveball I didn't see coming....

 

Not a biggie....  just something that threw me off....

 

Ah, now it makes sense.

 

Yeah, I expected Walden as well. I have mentioned a couple dozen times since March that I don't mind the Walden contract, not in the slightest. It might be higher than we needed to go, but if the contract was one year, $4m, I don't think anyone would be complaining about it. When it's reported as four years, $16m, with $8m guaranteed -- as it originally was -- everyone gets up in arms.

 

"First, who the heck is Erik Walden, right??? Second, why aren't we signing Paul Kruger or Cliff Avril or Michael Bennett or someone other guy whose name I know and expected us to sign? Third, I just read that PFF rated Erik Walden as the worst linebacker in the league last year, and we're giving him $8m guaranteed? This offseason sucks!!!"

 

Not that that's your reaction, but it was the general reaction on the board, on Twitter, among bloggers and other online enthusiasts, etc. And it's misguided. First, $4m/year for a Sam backer in a hybrid defense is par for the course; see Jarrett Johnson's contracts, which are actually a little higher than that. Second, Walden fit the mold that Pagano wants at Sam backer. Third, it is a four year deal, but only $4m is guaranteed, and if he sucks after 2013, we can release him for a $750k cap penalty. It's as team-friendly as a long term deal gets. I can understand being surprised at the contract, but it's really not a bad deal for a starting OLB in our defense.

 

The reason I was glad to see Barnwell not include it is because most of the media criticism of the contract has nothing to do with Walden's merits as a player. If he does what we hope he will, his pay will fall right in line.

[Gavin]

The Walden deal Im cool with because if push comes to shove and he completely flops this year we can get out of the contract with little cap penalty the way I see it on Spotrac at the end of this year

[Superman]

I want to be clear, Im obviously not expecting a ton of sacks. Thats just unrealistic but you obviously dont have to have a ton of sacks to be a player that a team absolutely must gameplan for, Thats a huge factor in it but being a disruption will occur alot more often then sack numbers show, That and if he is disruptive enough to start to draw double teams with any amount of consistency then he is doing his job. when I watch him play I see a penetrator and a guy that can give chase more then a guy that will hold his ground in run contain. In my opinion he would be best used in Stunts do to his quickness

 

Yeah, I agree. If we have him on the strong side with Walden, he'll get penetration on a lot of run plays. If we put him on the other side on passing downs, he can make the pass rush more formidable. He's not going to get a ton of sacks, but he ought to give blockers fits. And he's a nice piece for when we play these read option teams, because he'll do a good job with either the gap exchange technique or the slow read technique.

[Warhorse]

Don't forget the value of getting a guy early, getting them acclimated to the community, the team facilitites, driving the area......and most of all, being shown that they were wanted, not just the best deal that was selected late.

 

Numbers dont justify every decision.

[crazycolt1]

"You cant say anyone is overpaid till the end of this season." I understand what your saying but I just dont agree, Taking that approach has led to some real problems at times with players who did not perform up to there contracts, look at what Flacco did during the regular season, Ozzie Newsome would have been ridiculed for paying Flacco the kinda of money he got post super bowl BEFORE Flacco actually had a great post season, The money is extremely different comparing Francois and Flacco but the idea is not, neithershowed the ability or production to justify the pay day they got, With that said, Francois is explosive, quick for a D Lineman. The athleticism and speed is there to get penetration and hold his ground but the production has not been there.

QBs and other players. Apples and oranges. Very little money is guaranteed to the players Grigson has signed. Flacco is guaranteed $52 million on a $120.6 million dollar contract. Newsome is being ridiculed for paying Flacco the contract he signed. You picked a bad example to use in that regards. Coaches and trainers teach these players how to do their jobs. Some coaches are better than others in that regard. Not every player signed on any team is going to play up to their contracts as far as money is concerned.  We will wait and see if these players work out. Till that time comes we can't say with certainty whether they are over paid or not. I feel that Grigson done a lot of film study and a lot of talking about these players he signed and made the choice. As many players that were signed will Grigson be 100% on all? Very doubtful but that's the nature of the game. 

[mvbighead]

I missed that. Yeah, RJF isn't a nose tackle, even though he can play there in a sub front. But even at end, we're paying him good starter's money. He's got something to prove.

 

If Cherilus plays like he has the past two years, we're getting a top level right tackle. Health is the only question.

 

Yeah, as far as end goes, I think he has a decent amount of talent.  But, I believe it has been said that Aldon Smith's sacks went way down when he lost Justin Smith.  So, I suspect RJF could still be a disappointment, just have to wait and see there.  Hopefully the chance to start makes him push a little harder.

[JasonABrown]

People are acting like the Colts blew it with the contract for Cherilus, that they could have held off for a while, and squeaked out a deal for less. Maybe Grigson wanted to let it rip for the guy he saw as the best FA RT.

 

Nice work!  Gave me a laugh with that word play. 

[oldunclemark]

Its impossible to call a contract 'bad' before the player has had a chance to play one game, isnt it?

[weslo1812]

I think we need to wait and see performance of these players on the field before we judge whether their worth the money. Also whether we overpaid a little on some guys or not, your not gonna get everyone you want at exactly the price you think is right. It doesn't work that way. There's competition out there so it can make the price go up. You gotta pay a little extra sometimes to the guys you want. Especially if their bigger names. People need to stop getting so worried about what we we spent or if we overspent. Our GM and owner know what their doing. They definatley know a he of a lot more than any of us on this.

[Gavin]

Its impossible to call a contract 'bad' before the player has had a chance to play one game, isnt it?

Not at all, your paying a player big money to produce BASED on what that player has proven to have produce in the past, In other words your not going to just pay any player big money, he has to have shown he can produce, in my opinion its clear Francois has not done that, Here is his numbers through his career

 

Francois:

games played career-51

tackles-51

sacks-3

FF-1

passes defensed-2

 

For comparison:

 

Richardo Matthews-36 games played

1 sack

3 passes defensed

33 tackles

0 FF

 

Given the number of games Matthews has been in his numbers are not that far from Francois, people would go crazy of Matthews go that contract

[BOTT]

Yeah, as far as end goes, I think he has a decent amount of talent.  But, I believe it has been said that Aldon Smith's sacks went way down when he lost Justin Smith.  So, I suspect RJF could still be a disappointment, just have to wait and see there.  Hopefully the chance to start makes him push a little harder.

What they left out was Aldon Smith suffered a torn labrum in his shoulder around the same time Justin Smith went down.

[Jason_]

Not at all, your paying a player big money to produce BASED on what that player has proven to have produce in the past, In other words your not going to just pay any player big money, he has to have shown he can produce, in my opinion its clear Francois has not done that, Here is his numbers through his career

 

Francois:

games played career-51

tackles-51

sacks-3

FF-1

passes defensed-2

 

For comparison:

 

Richardo Matthews-36 games played

1 sack

3 passes defensed

33 tackles

0 FF

 

Given the number of games Matthews has been in his numbers are not that far from Francois, people would go crazy of Matthews go that contract

 

Well I know it's been said to you before and I'm sure saying it again will simply fall on deaf ears, but not everything is about numbers/stats.  A player's full impact does not always show up on the stat sheet, which is something you alluded to earlier in saying you don't expect RJF to have a ton of sacks.  Yet now you say he was overpaid because his past numbers were not good enough.  If you don't expect him to have top level numbers/stats, then how can you determine how to pay him?  If you only pay a player based on stats/numbers, then offensive linemen and NT's would be the lowest paid players on the team, not including kickers.

 

The bolded statement is simply not true.  If that were the case, then Dwight Freeny's recent contract would have been top dollar because he has top level proven production in the past.  Players are not always paid exclusively based on proven production.  If that were the case then college players would be interns (unpaid) for their rookie years because, as rookies, they have no proven past production at the NFL level.  Players are paid based on what they have done AND what they are expected to do.  If said player does not live up to expectations then they are cut early and do not earn the full amount of their contract.

[Andy]

I would have to agree on the fact that Smith and Vollmer were better options and they went much cheaper (2M less for Vollmer, 1M for Smith), but if he stays healthy and performs, it will be alright. I don't mind paying a lot for Luck to stay upright.

 

As for RJF, if he performs, then it's ok, but right now, I agree with Barnwell.

 

He's a very good writer. 

[husker61]

cherilus's contract doesn't hurt the colts if they cut him after two years, and francois can be cut after one year without hurting the colts. it's like a test drive, i don't see the down side to these deals. if they work out, they are locked in, if not by-by.

[Superman]

cherilus's contract doesn't hurt the colts if they cut him after two years, and francois can be cut after one year without hurting the colts. it's like a test drive, i don't see the down side to these deals. if they work out, they are locked in, if not by-by.

If we release Cherilus after 2014, we have a cap penalty of $8.7m. That would sting.

[Superman]

I would have to agree on the fact that Smith and Vollmer were better options and they went much cheaper (2M less for Vollmer, 1M for Smith), but if he stays healthy and performs, it will be alright. I don't mind paying a lot for Luck to stay upright.

 

As for RJF, if he performs, then it's ok, but right now, I agree with Barnwell.

 

He's a very good writer.

What's better about Smith and Vollmer than Gosder Cherilus?

[Iancolts]

RJF in my opinion was worth his contract dude is very versatile can play any where on the Dline. And Cher he is a good RT protection is a mist for Andrew Luck. I think the Cher signing though could've been alot better but the FO seems to be worried about Lucks health so they pulled the trigger a little faster but as long as we make the post season and luck stays injury free the topic will be voided

[John Dee]

It was gone a LONG TIME AGO......  

He has now lost all credibility 

 

 

;)

[John Dee]

Absolutely NOTHING.

 

Vollmer has serious back issues, and Smith played well in a "contract year" ...Underachieving every year prior.

 

 

Imagine that.    

 

 

The Colts hard targeted their T and they got him...       So what if they payed a tad too much?  That only tells me Indy had to OUT BID someone.        

 

Folks sure were knocking down the door for SV and Chunky Smith.      Or not.. 

 

 

What's better about Smith and Vollmer than Gosder Cherilus?

[throwing BBZ]

Well he's right on Cherilus. Vollmer and Smith are better (Maybe), younger, and cheaper.

he is clearly wrong as vollmer has back issues and smith is worthy of not bidding on at all as he is a sloppy head case.

 

by delaying picking a rt based on saving MAYBE a few $$$ million for a player you like less, he would also begin entering a gray area on what he may be able to spend on the MANY OTHER players he Planned to spend to upgrade what had been a very weak roster.

 

EXCELLENT PLAN  executed by GRIGGS filling in with so many solid players. As a HOMER, GRIGGS will be the top contender for EXEC. of the year AGAIN.

 

the writer had a column to write but didn`t know what position rjf was signed to play, and ignored Harboughs high regard for RJF.

BLATHERER who didn`t do his homework.

[chrisfarley]

Second highest rated right tackle in free agency, has been more consistent and healthier than Vollmer over the past two seasons, and is set to make $0.16m/year more than Vollmer.

 

But I always love it when people make these crystal ball predictions on a message board.

yes he was but man have I heard some locals of his previous team dissing him.  it's just like when we dis our o-linemen because they miss a block or maybe have an injury and we get down on them. 

[Superman]

yes he was but man have I heard some locals of his previous team dissing him.  it's just like when we dis our o-linemen because they miss a block or maybe have an injury and we get down on them.

And we all know how hard it is for a player to shake a poor initial assessment. We have people around here wanting to cut Coby Fleener, for instance. Others who won't acknowledge the improvements Donald Brown has made in his pass blocking since his rookie season, and so on.

Cherilus had some issues a few years ago, but the last two seasons, he was a rock for the Lions. Like I keep saying, he was the second rated RT in free agency, slightly behind on Andre Smith, but he doesn't have Smith's character issues. He doesn't miss blocks, really, with only three sacks allowed for an offense that shattered the previous record for pass attempts in a season. He hasn't been injured in the past two seasons.

I'm not trying to defend Cherilus at all costs. Like I've said repeatedly, I'm concerned about the big signing bonus if he doesn't pan out long term. But on his merits as a player? I think he was the best available RT, so I disagree with the characterization of him as a "marginal talent." And he got paid significantly less than what the other two top RT free agents were initially asking for.

[husker61]

If we release Cherilus after 2014, we have a cap penalty of $8.7m. That would sting.

 

it would be 6 million cap hit (10m signing bonus minus 4m already payed), but if he was on the team he would have a cap number of 6.9m his third year.

[husker61]

yes he was but man have I heard some locals of his previous team dissing him.  it's just like when we dis our o-linemen because they miss a block or maybe have an injury and we get down on them. 

 

and we know how good fans and talking heads are at judging talent.

[Superman]

it would be 6 million cap hit (10m signing bonus minus 4m already payed), but if he was on the team he would have a cap number of 6.9m his third year.

The signing bonus is being counted as $14.5m, because of the difference between the Year 1 and Year 2 base salaries. That extra $4.5m is coming from his Year 1 base. Weird rule that kicked in. So, yeah, the cap penalty if we release him increases by $900k for each year remaining. That's why it's $8.7m after 2014, rather than the $6m it normally would be.

[Ohio Colt]

Maybe Barnwell is right but the bottom line is we needed bodies at both these positions. It was worth a roll of the dice.

[Andy]

What's better about Smith and Vollmer than Gosder Cherilus?

 

Smith struggled in the past with injuries, but has been solid the last 2 years, especially last year.

 

Vollmer has always been a rock on the Patriots, and went for almost 3M dollars cheaper.

 

Hey, I'm extremely happy with Cherilus, I really like the guy. I also said before that I don't mind paying a lot to keep Luck upright, I was just acknowledging Barnwell's comment about Smith and Vollmer, who went for much cheaper and are arguably better fits. 

 

Again, very happy with Cherilus, 

[GoColts8818]

After watching Andrew Luck get hit as much as he did last year and remembering the last time that we were able to run the ball my user name reflected guys on the team makes me think if Cherilus can sure up our o-line he was worth every penny we spent on him. 

[braveheartcolt]

We are still quivering in the wake of Polian cap mismanagement. I don't care one jot about the size of thesze of these contracts. Unnecessary angst.

[husker61]

The signing bonus is being counted as $14.5m, because of the difference between the Year 1 and Year 2 base salaries. That extra $4.5m is coming from his Year 1 base. Weird rule that kicked in. So, yeah, the cap penalty if we release him increases by $900k for each year remaining. That's why it's $8.7m after 2014, rather than the $6m it normally would be.

 

that's a strange rule. things are way more complicated than they need to be. that's how attorneys keep attorneys in business.

[crazycolt1]

We are still quivering in the wake of Polian cap mismanagement. I don't care one jot about the size of thesze of these contracts. Unnecessary angst.

You know I am going to hit the like button on this! lol

[Jason_]

We are still quivering in the wake of Polian cap mismanagement. I don't care one jot about the size of thesze of these contracts. Unnecessary angst.

 

I agree....however, I still wonder how much of those inflated contracts had Irsay's fingerprints on them.  Irsay, not Polian, has been the one making public comments about making XX player the highest paid.  Irsay was the one saying he was going to make Manning the highest paid player in the league.  Irsay's the one who recently tweeted about making Cherilus the highest paid RT.  I HOPE it was Polian so that it won't continue to happen but the tweets about Cherilus make me wonder if Irsay is still too involved in the negotiations.