Erik Walden better than Dwight Freeney?

[NewColtsFan]

The beauty of running a 3/4 is being able to bring pressure and blitz from all over. Meaning its not on just the olb. We can bring a ilb, cb, s. although I think walden will be fine. Not to mention we will be rotating olbers so constant fresh legs running rampage!!

 

I understand all that....   I really do.

 

Yet we ran a 3-4 last year and were among the worst in sacks, pressure and hits of the QB.    I've preferred the 4-3 most of my life,  but I've come around to liking the 3-4 more and understanding its advantages as you put them.   

 

Still,  there is more to do. 

[Superman]

Both guys play the run on the edge, both guys rush the passer. It's not like a 4-3 end has never been able to switch to 3-4 OLB, or vice versa. Bennett is just a guy that shuts down the run and isn't a half bad pass rusher either. Walden probably spends more time in coverage, but being a 34 OLB he would be doing so very rarely. I know his contract isn't the end of the world, but it's definitely a minor blip on an otherwise excellent offseason.

I don't know if you really appreciate the difference in responsibilities. Just because they both share some of the same duties doesn't mean they play the same role. It really is like comparing an inside linebacker to an outside linebacker. The rush backer in Pagano's defense is different from the sam backer.

To be clear, I'd rather have gotten Bennett for one year at $4.8m than Walden. I don't like his contract. But I don't think people are looking at his potential role on the defense from the right perspective. And if he fills that Jarrett Johnson role reasonably well, then he's doing so at pretty much market value.

[NewColtsFan]

A couple of funny things about this thread.

 

1.)  According to Profootball Focus Freeney was still excellent at rushing the passer last year.  It was his run defense that was not good.

 

2.)  According to the same site, Walden was the worst 3-4 LB in 2011 and 2012.  New scenery may do him good but not real excited about this move.

 

3.)  I've been posting on this board for a while now and while I have not read every post I have read a good many and I have never once heard a fan say, "this defense needs someone to set the edge" until, that is, the Colts signed Walden and Grigson claimed he is good at "setting the edge."  Now every many fans on this site talk about setting the edge as the most obvious problem the Colts D had and Walden is the solution for that problem that the fans have known existed all of last year.

 

For what it's worth,  Pagano has been talking about the need to 'set the edge' since he arrived.   

 

He didn't start saying it with the arrival of Walden....

[dbrownbomber]

i would consider freeny a top 10 pass rusher of alltime.  i think the only problem he had last year was his age was catching up to him.  if we ha gone to a 3-4 earlier in his carear i think he was probably a good enough athlete he would have excelled in it.  if wehadn't changed last year i thinkhe would have had a similar year and as much as i lovefreeny he will have that kind of year this year.  and just looking at their stats from last year we're comparing an old freeny with a younger walden. guess what i'm trying to sy is you can't compare the 2 until walden is in for as long as freeny.

[The Peytonator]

I don't know if you really appreciate the difference in responsibilities. Just because they both share some of the same duties doesn't mean they play the same role. It really is like comparing an inside linebacker to an outside linebacker. The rush backer in Pagano's defense is different from the sam backer.

To be clear, I'd rather have gotten Bennett for one year at $4.8m than Walden. I don't like his contract. But I don't think people are looking at his potential role on the defense from the right perspective. And if he fills that Jarrett Johnson role reasonably well, then he's doing so at pretty much market value.

 

 

I don't know, I guess to me if you have the same duties you have the same responsibilities. I know they're playing different positions....strong side/weak side. One side might have a little more responsibility against the run, but the guy on the other side shouldn't totally disregard the run.

 

I know it's moot, but I think Bennett would be just fine in the Jarrett Johnson role.

[NewEra]

I understand all that.... I really do.

Yet we ran a 3-4 last year and were among the worst in sacks, pressure and hits of the QB. I've preferred the 4-3 most of my life, but I've come around to liking the 3-4 more and understanding its advantages as you put them.

Still, there is more to do.

For sure. What's crazy is it seems like you need more pieces to make the 3/4 work the way it's supposed to. Last year was our first year running it. While the numbers weren't there. Our defense actually played better than years past. I think we're starting to get the monster headed in the right direction.

[ColtJ82]

I have heard many people talk about how bad of a signing Erik Walden was, but I think he is an upgrade over Freeney, I am strictly talking 3-4 scheme, not the 4-3, lets look at the stats

 

Dwight Freeney- 14 tackles, 5.0 sacks, 1 FF, 0 INT

 

Erik Walden- 46 tackles, 3.0 sacks, 0 FF, 2 INT

 

so, the main thing, actually the only thing Freeney does is get pressure on the QB, and last year in our new 3-4 scheme, he was not doing it, Walden may not be a huge pressure guy, but he can stop the run unlike Freeney, and we don't lose a whole lot in pressuring the QB, so is Walden considered an upgrade over Freeney in the 3-4?

They have different responsibilities in this defense. Walden is replacing Mathis and Mathis is sliding over to Freeney's spot. 

 

I didn't take the time to read through, but I am sure this has been pointed out multiple times.

[krunk]

Listen, I think people are completely over reacting on this. I would like for the Walden experts here to explain how Walden is incapable of rushing the passer.  Our scouting guys and our GM and coaching staff apparently wholeheartedly disagree with the so called experts on the forum that think Walden is crap. We also still have Hughes who I know people love to gripe about, but the fact is he had 5 sacks last season in a rotational role where he didn't get a ton a snaps. I just choose to have a little faith in the professionals running the organization. The pessimism on this forum over the last week is sickening.

I like Hughes but I have a feeling Sidbury will either bring the best out in him, or Sidbury is going to beat Hughes out. It's just a gut feeling I have. We'll see!

[HtownColt]

Pagano's thing was stopping the run since day one and we were getting gashed every week in the run game(from MJD,Matt forte, Foster, Charles, Shaun Greene, even the packers ran the ball on us). We couldn't stop the run because we couldn't set the edge, freeney never could and Mathis is average at it. By These free agent signings that's what Pagano is focusing on. He is more concerned with stopping the run than he is in pass rushing and who can blame him from how we failed to stop the run. You have a premiere pass rusher in Mathis, and he had nobody to stop the run, now we have Francois, walden, and Franklin to help stop the run. It's obvious of what Pagano and Grigson are focusing on in free agency right now and that is stopping the run. He is sticking to his philosophy.

[a06cc]

I wonder where Jerry Hughes fits into all of this. He needs so me field time

[ConBro]

Cause he got strapped by my Texas Longhorns that's why

Okafor FTW!

[Jules]

I am not an "expert" at all, far from it. But, I watch a lot of Packers games. And outside of some sexy interceptions at times and occasionally overrated team stats that get hopes up, that D has been pure poop since their SB win (and it was crap in 2009 too) with guys usually out of place and big plays being given up like beads at Mardi Gras. So, I am not sure how much I can really judge from Walden until I see him with the Colts and see what our coaches get out of him, since I feel Pagano really sees something in this guy which makes me have faith too. I have seen Walden do some good things with the Pack and some bad things. However I have seen that entire D do absolutely horrible things as a whole, good job Capers.......

 

JMO

[throwing BBZ]

You're misreading me.....

 

But you talked about Walden being a guy whose primary responsibility it is to set the edge and then talked about Mathis being our rush guy.

 

My only point is....    that's not enough.    We need more.    We need a lot more.    I want to slow and contain the running game as much as the next fan....    but we've got to be able to pressure the QB,  and so that's going to include Walden.

 

I'm hoping for at least 8 sacks from each....   that may not be realistic...   but as of today,   that's my goal...

 

 Anthony Spencer Never had 7 sacks in a year and Jones Franchised him at $9M for 2012. Your expectations are soooo high.

 Just think, Mathis is a household name from getting sacks from his OLD position.

  Walden has the Same job as Mathis had! He just won`t take himself out of run support as much as Mathis did.

 He will be situational to a degree as Hughes will play a lot again in rotation with Mathis also.

 

 # Defensive Snaps for 2012

Mathis    624

Freeney 619

Hughes  596

 

[NewColtsFan]

 Anthony Spencer Never had 7 sacks in a year and Jones Franchised him at $9M for 2012. Your expectations are soooo high.

 Just think, Mathis is a household name from getting sacks from his OLD position.

  Walden has the Same job as Mathis had! He just won`t take himself out of run support as much as Mathis did.

 He will be situational to a degree as Hughes will play a lot again in rotation with Mathis also.

 

 # Defensive Snaps for 2012

Mathis    624

Freeney 619

Hughes  596

 

 

Right....   but Anthony Spencer (who by the way delivered 11 sacks in 2012)  also had Ware on the other side who was always good for double digits in sacks...

 

Perhaps I am aiming too high,  I give you that.   But I'm desperately searching for sacks, hits and pressure and just not finding it.....    we need turnovers!!

 

I'm somewhat optimistic that in year two of the Pagano Plan with somewhat upgraded personnel,  we'll scheme and coach our way to more pressure, as Superman posted about earlier in this thread....    that's my hope at least.....

 

And I'm hopeful we'll find another pass rusher of some type in the draft....   and then, perhaps more pressure in 2014....

 

Guess the Monster isn't built in one year....   or even two....  

[lollygagger8]

I was amazed when I saw Freeney's stats after the season. I know he was a rush/situational type of player, but he had more games played than tackles.

 

Exactly......through halfway through the season, Reggie Wayne had more tackles than he did!

[Smonroe]

"Is Mathis an upgrade over Freeney"?

Mathis caught a pick, end of discussion

*Walks away*

Hardly makes him better. We'll see what Mathis can do against LTs this year when the Oline isn't compensating for Freeney.

[Jason_]

A couple of funny things about this thread.

 

1.)  According to Profootball Focus Freeney was still excellent at rushing the passer last year.  It was his run defense that was not good.

 

2.)  According to the same site, Walden was the worst 3-4 LB in 2011 and 2012.  New scenery may do him good but not real excited about this move.

 

3.)  I've been posting on this board for a while now and while I have not read every post I have read a good many and I have never once heard a fan say, "this defense needs someone to set the edge" until, that is, the Colts signed Walden and Grigson claimed he is good at "setting the edge."  Now every many fans on this site talk about setting the edge as the most obvious problem the Colts D had and Walden is the solution for that problem that the fans have known existed all of last year.

 

Well I agree that a good majority didn't start talking about it until recently, but there have been a few, myself included, talking about it for a long time now, especially when it comes to Freeney and Mathis who are neither one very good at setting the edge.  

 

 

 

Funny how that works. Anyone can 'set the edge', but what separates good OLBs from bad ones is their ability to actually make a play on the ball carrier. If Walden tackles the RB after an 8 yard carry on a drag down tackle, and Von Miller beats his man and stuffs it for a half yard gain, who's the better edge guy? I know that's comparing apples and oranges, but a lot of people are bringing up Walden's tackle numbers like it means something.

 

anyone can TRY to set the edge, but not every player can do so effectively.  Freeney and Mathis are both prime examples of players who are very poor at trying to do so.  Setting the edge, to my understanding, means they're pushing their blocker into the backfield enough to prevent the ball carrier from bouncing outside the tackle and forcing them to the inside of the tackle where either that player can get off the block and make the tackle or at the very least the ILB is there to make the tackle.  Freeney and Mathis were both more likely to either spin themselves out of a play, opening up the edge, or getting blown off the LOS which also gave up the edge so the RB could bounce outside for a big gain.  

[Tark The Shark]

I expect Walden to be better than Freeney this year.

Freeney was there as a project, to see if he could play the rush OLB.

Walden I think will be better because he is younger and knows how to play the 3-4.

[Balzer40]

Well I agree that a good majority didn't start talking about it until recently, but there have been a few, myself included, talking about it for a long time now, especially when it comes to Freeney and Mathis who are neither one very good at setting the edge.  

 

 

 

 

anyone can TRY to set the edge, but not every player can do so effectively.  Freeney and Mathis are both prime examples of players who are very poor at trying to do so.  Setting the edge, to my understanding, means they're pushing their blocker into the backfield enough to prevent the ball carrier from bouncing outside the tackle and forcing them to the inside of the tackle where either that player can get off the block and make the tackle or at the very least the ILB is there to make the tackle.  Freeney and Mathis were both more likely to either spin themselves out of a play, opening up the edge, or getting blown off the LOS which also gave up the edge so the RB could bounce outside for a big gain.  

 

 

 

I agree, I have been talking about Mathis and especially Freeney's inability to play the run for yrs.. Not just last yr. in their new roles, but since they've been here. Freeney especially is a terrible run defender, but in fairness to him, that wasn't his role here. Pagano stated when he was 1st hired that stopping the run was going to be what our defense was all about and I think they have taken major steps this offseason in doing that. I don't think people understand that with improved d-line and secondary play that it is going to also improve our pass rush. When a team can't run effectively on us, it makes them one dimensional and will force them to throw the ball 40-50 times a game, which will create mistakes and turnovers.

[Jason_]

Listen, I think people are completely over reacting on this. I would like for the Walden experts here to explain how Walden is incapable of rushing the passer.  Our scouting guys and our GM and coaching staff apparently wholeheartedly disagree with the so called experts on the forum that think Walden is crap. We also still have Hughes who I know people love to gripe about, but the fact is he had 5 sacks last season in a rotational role where he didn't get a ton a snaps. I just choose to have a little faith in the professionals running the organization. The pessimism on this forum over the last week is sickening. 

 

 

 

I agree that a lot of the pessimism has been very annoying.  However that said, I'm right there with NCF in being a bit concerned about our pass rush.  They made a lot of moves to address a lot of issues but I'd have still liked to have seen a proven pass rusher added.  

 

Also, yes there have been a few who have talked about Walden being crap and overpaid, but NCF didn't say anything like that.  The coaching staff and GM agree that Walden will help in run support and setting the edge, but I haven't seen any comments from them indicating they believe he will be a force in the pass rush department, and everything that I've read about him indicates that rushing the QB is not something he excels at.  Therefore I don't expect him to be involved all that much on passing downs.  

 

The Colts play a hybrid defense, and against passing teams they more often than not played a nickel defense with a 4 man front.  In those situations I completely expect either Sidbury or Hughes on the field on one side at DE and Mathis on the other side, with some combination of Redding, Nevis, Matthews, Moala and RJF at DT.  Heck, maybe they have a nascar like package where Sidbury, Hughes and Mathis are on the field at the same time along with Redding, Nevis or another OLB/DE pass rusher they pickup in the draft, or maybe Killeen develops into a legit pass rusher.  The point being that right now, Sidbury and Killeen are unproven and Hughes is "barely proven" imo.  Hughes played well in his rotational role last year, but can he sustain that for the entire season and with the additional opportunities that he'll get this year since Freeney is gone?  Hopefully he can, but I'd feel much better if there were at least one more pass rush specialist on the team,and there's no reason that we can't get one in the draft and I fully expect us to do so either in the 1st or 3rd round.

 

I know you're frustrated, a lot of people are, and you've explained as much later in the thread...I'd just ask you to please remember to target that frustration where it is deserved. ;)

[Balzer40]

I agree that a lot of the pessimism has been very annoying.  However that said, I'm right there with NCF in being a bit concerned about our pass rush.  They made a lot of moves to address a lot of issues but I'd have still liked to have seen a proven pass rusher added.  

 

Also, yes there have been a few who have talked about Walden being crap and overpaid, but NCF didn't say anything like that.  The coaching staff and GM agree that Walden will help in run support and setting the edge, but I haven't seen any comments from them indicating they believe he will be a force in the pass rush department, and everything that I've read about him indicates that rushing the QB is not something he excels at.  Therefore I don't expect him to be involved all that much on passing downs.  

 

The Colts play a hybrid defense, and against passing teams they more often than not played a nickel defense with a 4 man front.  In those situations I completely expect either Sidbury or Hughes on the field on one side at DE and Mathis on the other side, with some combination of Redding, Nevis, Matthews, Moala and RJF at DT.  Heck, maybe they have a nascar like package where Sidbury, Hughes and Mathis are on the field at the same time along with Redding, Nevis or another OLB/DE pass rusher they pickup in the draft, or maybe Killeen develops into a legit pass rusher.  The point being that right now, Sidbury and Killeen are unproven and Hughes is "barely proven" imo.  Hughes played well in his rotational role last year, but can he sustain that for the entire season and with the additional opportunities that he'll get this year since Freeney is gone?  Hopefully he can, but I'd feel much better if there were at least one more pass rush specialist on the team,and there's no reason that we can't get one in the draft and I fully expect us to do so either in the 1st or 3rd round.

 

I know you're frustrated, a lot of people are, and you've explained as much later in the thread...I'd just ask you to please remember to target that frustration where it is deserved. ;)

 

 

Yeah, I let NCF, it wasn't really him that I was annoyed with. I'm just really liking what we've done so far this offseason and I think were going to possibly have one of the best defenses the Indy Colts have ever had. I don't expect much in the way of pass rush from Walden, but I still think that with a better d-line and secondary that it will automatically help our pass rush too. We may not have a star rush LBer, but we are going to have a better all around defense.

[Jason_]

Yeah, I let NCF, it wasn't really him that I was annoyed with. I'm just really liking what we've done so far this offseason and I think were going to possibly have one of the best defenses the Indy Colts have ever had. I don't expect much in the way of pass rush from Walden, but I still think that with a better d-line and secondary that it will automatically help our pass rush too. We may not have a star rush LBer, but we are going to have a better all around defense.

 

With that I completely agree and I have also been incredibly happy with the preseason so far.  I do think we'll have a better defense all around, and we'll be seeing pressure come from every direction.  I would just feel better personally bringing in some more help specifically for those times they use a 4 man front, so an edge rusher and/or an interior rusher.  I'm not sure if RJF has the skill set to provide a solid pass rush from the interior...maybe he will, that'd be great, but like NCF said, you can never have too many pass rushers these days.

[Coffeedrinker]

For what it's worth,  Pagano has been talking about the need to 'set the edge' since he arrived.   

 

He didn't start saying it with the arrival of Walden....

That would be a good point if I was talking about the coaches.

[Coffeedrinker]

We spent a lot of time talking about setting the edge in run containment once Pagano was hired. Maybe for some this is about justifying a weird signing, but it's not for me. This defense needs the OLBs to contain the run.

Also, PFF lumps all "edge defenders" in as one, without regard for the different responsibilities of each one. Freeney is a different "edge defender" from Walden, who is a different "edge defender" from Kruger. They were all OLBs last year, but it's really three different positions. PFF's rankings, while helpful in certain respects, don't take that into consideration. They really can't.

Like I said, I have not read all the posts and I was pretty busy during the season and didn't get to post most.

As far as PFF, they are definitely not the be all end of of stats but they do take the different responsibilities into consideration and it effects the overall score.  Here is a blurb about Freeney

 

Combine Freeney’s massive cap number in the final year of his contract with the Colts’ switch to a 3-4 defense, and there was little chance of Indianapolis getting a positive return on investment here. Freeney still excelled with his hand on the ground, as his 8.8 Pass Rushing Productivity was in the Top 10 for 3-4 OLBs. However, his run defense, already poor the previous two seasons, was simply dreadful. His 2.6% Run Stop Percentage ranked him 33rd out of 34 players at his position.

 

So they do break down and grade the different responsibilities.  The complete breakdown in probably in the premium stat sight in which you have to pay to view... and I have not done that.

 

Just to end on a positive note, here is from the section about grading the oline.  The Pats, according to PFF, had the #2 best oline, I thought some would like this summary:

 

Summary: Incredibly talented, incredibly deep. The tackles make you breathe easy, and the interior can really overpower a team. Even when Logan Mankins went down there was no dropoff, with the play of Donald Thomas actually proving somewhat more consistent. Stunning, I know.

[Superman]

Like I said, I have not read all the posts and I was pretty busy during the season and didn't get to post most.

As far as PFF, they are definitely not the be all end of of stats but they do take the different responsibilities into consideration and it effects the overall score.  Here is a blurb about Freeney

 

 

So they do break down and grade the different responsibilities.  The complete breakdown in probably in the premium stat sight in which you have to pay to view... and I have not done that.

 

Just to end on a positive note, here is from the section about grading the oline.  The Pats, according to PFF, had the #2 best oline, I thought some would like this summary:

 

Good stuff on Thomas. 

 

On PFF, I know they look at pass rush responsibilities vs. run responsibilities, but that's not what I mean. I mean, for instance, the Sam backer has different responsibilities from play to play than the Rush backer, and PFF doesn't account for that. 

 

Walden was neither a Sam nor a Rush backer last season, and so comparing his effectiveness to either Freeney or Mathis is going to yield incomplete results. Like I said earlier, I say this, not to justify a weird signing (I freely admit that giving him $16m seems weird), but to point out that PFF rating him as "the worst edge defender" really isn't indicative of his play or his worth.

[Coffeedrinker]

Good stuff on Thomas. 

 

On PFF, I know they look at pass rush responsibilities vs. run responsibilities, but that's not what I mean. I mean, for instance, the Sam backer has different responsibilities from play to play than the Rush backer, and PFF doesn't account for that. 

 

Walden was neither a Sam nor a Rush backer last season, and so comparing his effectiveness to either Freeney or Mathis is going to yield incomplete results. Like I said earlier, I say this, not to justify a weird signing (I freely admit that giving him $16m seems weird), but to point out that PFF rating him as "the worst edge defender" really isn't indicative of his play or his worth.

I see what you are saying.   Players do have different responsibilities in different schemes but in the end a LB, whether he's in a 3-4 or 4-3, inside or outside your job is to tackle the ball carrier on running plays and rush the passer or cover a receiver on passing plays.  From what little I've seen and what I have read Walden does not seem that good at either.

[Superman]

I see what you are saying.   Players do have different responsibilities in different schemes but in the end a LB, whether he's in a 3-4 or 4-3, inside or outside your job is to tackle the ball carrier on running plays and rush the passer or cover a receiver on passing plays.  From what little I've seen and what I have read Walden does not seem that good at either.

 

Have you seen the FO grade on Walden? Says 77% of his plays were "stops," according to their definition. Kind of counterbalances the PFF rating, doesn't wash it out, though. Walden is definitely not an elite playmaker.

 

And while the responsibilities do overlap -- a linebacker is never going to ignore a play coming his way because "that's not my responsibility, I'm supposed to be in coverage" -- when you lump a collection of ends and outside linebackers together, without regard for the scheme they play or the duties relative to the scheme, you're not going to get an objective analysis. You wind up with a rating that claims that Shawne Merriman was better than Cliff Avril.

 

That's fine. I know PFF doesn't claim to be the absolute authority on a player's worth, value, impact, or whatever. Some fans act like they are, but PFF doesn't. Neither does FO, or any of the other advanced metrics guys. They just offer a perspective that's put into a numerical value.

 

I think Walden is "just a guy," like Parcells would say. But most of your players are "just a guy." We don't need him to be an elite player, and we're not paying him like one, either. We're paying him something close to what Jarrett Johnson was making in Baltimore to play the same role, and Johnson is "just a guy" also. The difference is that Walden is going to have to be better this year in a new role than he was last year, so there's definitely a question mark. But if he's "just a guy," his pay is in line with his value.