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Peyton looks horrible


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I could say "I told you so", but I won't.

His arm strength is awful. People tried to ignore, cover it up, or just say "Hey, it's Peyton, he'll overcome!"

That doesn't happen when you're 36 and coming off of surgeries, and you now lack at least 25% of your arm strength from before.

Sounds like your still mad about that terrible performance the pats had at home against the Cardinals.

So, you come on here and troll. And that is what you just did there. BTW

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Apparently you don't know what a strawman is, either. How does throwing an insult about a Patriot loss have anything to do with Peyton Manning?

Nothing at all, correct? So basically if you have nothing to contribute to the actual topic at hand, throw in a random fact as a means to derail/insult. That's a tactic for someone who can't debate the actual topic at hand.

Same goes for you. What did Peytons arm strength have to do with the loss? Not a dang thing. You need to go sit in time out.

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I could say "I told you so", but I won't.

His arm strength is awful. People tried to ignore, cover it up, or just say "Hey, it's Peyton, he'll overcome!"

That doesn't happen when you're 36 and coming off of surgeries, and you now lack at least 25% of your arm strength from before.

What does arm strength have to do with the INTs he threw last night?

Those INTs were mental errors, playing too fast and not seeing the post-snap alignment eg safeties rotating over to the vacated areas he thought were open pre-snap. Manning historically has been less effective against Ds that can effectively take away his pre-snap reads which is his biggest advantage but not every D has the coordinator, personnel and scheme to pull off that style of D

His arm strength looked fine, he maybe lost 2mph or so off his throws as evidenced last week on Sunday Night Football but still had plenty of mustard to complete those deep outs

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I've been hanging around on Indy boards since 2005. Those who know me know that I am not a Manning basher in the slightest. I went from hating him as a rival to having grudging respect for him to where I am now, which is to say that I highly respect and admire the career he's put together. He's one of the best all-time, no doubt in my mind.

Which is why it kind of pains me to say this...

Those who are saying that arm strength is not an issue are diluting themselves. I wanted to reserve judgment until I'd seen a few Broncos games, but there is no doubt in my mind after only two that Manning's arm strength is probably somewhere between 60% and 75% of where it was prior to the neck injury and surgeries. And while he has been a superstar QB throughout his career, his arm strength was never his greatest asset. Even in his prime, Manning had an above-average arm, enough to make all the throws, but he wasn't ever on-par with the arm strength of some lesser QBs who could really sling it. (Arm strength is important, but not the end-all for QBs, of course.) Accuracy and decision-making were - and probably still are - his greatest strengths.

Some of the throws look good. When he has room, steps into it, etc. But the majority of them are "floaters." Even the TD pass to Thomas was a wounded duck. That thing fluttered through the air like a punt. (There's no way around that... the play was originally ruled incomplete, so we got to see the replay about 10 times.)

I'm not a medical expert but it's my understanding that it can take a year or more for the nerves in his arm to regenerate and bring back the full strength of his triceps and other muscles you use to throw a football.

I wish him the best, and would love to see him return to form, but I think anyone who is saying that his passes have the same kind of zip they used to have are in denial.

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It was one tough game. Last week he was brilliant, the same old Peyton we've seen for so many years in royal blue... Last week there weren't arm strength issues. He had a horrible Q1...sh...t happened. Next week, next game...

I think no players shall be judged according to 1 or 2 games... After mid-season or best at the end of regular season we will see, if has issues with arm strength or no...

Last week he really didn't go downfield very much though. He went downfield early in this game quite a bit and to be honest i thought his balls lacked zip, hung in the air, and were extremely wobbly. I know he has always thrown a bit of a wobbler but these were really bad. He didn't get the offense moving until he decided to use his running game and went back to the short stuff. His short stuff looks ok, still not sold on his ability to get it done downfield though.

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Last week he really didn't go downfield very much though. He went downfield early in this game quite a bit and to be honest i thought his balls lacked zip, hung in the air, and were extremely wobbly. I know he has always thrown a bit of a wobbler but these were really bad. He didn't get the offense moving until he decided to use his running game and went back to the short stuff. His short stuff looks ok, still not sold on his ability to get it done downfield though.

Seems like the sideline throws are the ones that are floating on him. Which makes sense, since those are harder to make and require more velocity. The stuff over the middle looks good for the most part.

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Loved 18 as much as any body, but am I the only one who is not really "rooting" for the Broncos this season, as looking at the weakened AFC conference overall, I feel like if the Colts can string together 8-9 wins they could very reasonably be vying for a wildcard slot, and the team that seems like could be standing in the way of that is Denver... just saying...

unrealsitic??? maybe, but I am a die hard...

With that said I did love seeing Von Miller & Denvers D "T" off against Rothlisburger in week 1....

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I'd say his arm strength is around 80% of what it was. Not great, but if his mind is sharp (which it wasn't last night in the first quarter) it doesn't matter. His arm strength wasn't why he threw three picks, he got fooled.

In spite of a horrible first quarter, a DEN fumble and recovery GIVEN to ATL, a fall down ruled as PI that led to 6 for ATL, and zero pash rush to speak of Denver was a TD away. And let's be honest - if the DEN D got a pass rush going when it mattered and stopped ATL from getting a first we all know exactly what would happen.

Lost by 6 to the biggest NFC contender outside of SF. Playing as horrible a first half as a team can play. 4 turnovers to 0 and lost by 6. If they get a pass rush going, they'll even be able to overcome games where they play like crap for a half.

I can see them going 12-4, even with a schedule as brutal as theirs.

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know 1 thing, 5 sacks in 2 games when often 6 a year ,

Receiver Familiarity & chemistry

Loud Stadium an OL & Wr hasnt gelled to point where can play with hand gestures

Dumervil non existent, no pass rush at all on Matt but he did also a good job of fast release when needed

Roddy white incredible

Atlanta plays so well at home and the old tight end catches everything.

Good comeback by Denver..but they never had he ball wth a cance to go ahead..

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Loved 18 as much as any body, but am I the only one who is not really "rooting" for the Broncos this season, as looking at the weakened AFC conference overall, I feel like if the Colts can string together 8-9 wins they could very reasonably be vying for a wildcard slot, and the team that seems like could be standing in the way of that is Denver... just saying...

unrealsitic??? maybe, but I am a die hard...

With that said I did love seeing Von Miller & Denvers D "T" off against Rothlisburger in week 1....

I believe we can get between 8 to 10 wins and a possible wild card birth. I've been going back and forth with the negative realists about this for the past couple days. The realists who want me to temper my expectations because of our "perceived" lack of talent. This team we have this year has more talent then that team we took to the playoffs against the Jets when we got spanked in the first round. That team had a worse defense than we have now talent wise.

We took this mediocre bunch to the playoffs. They were not even as talented offensively as the 2012 Colts. The major difference was the offensive line which was better and more experienced than the 2012 Colts.

We are working on the OL right now and I am confident it will get better this year.

You can say Edge is better than DB and I agree, but DB can go for 1000 with some blocking certainly so it's

not that huge of a deal. I don't even think the 2002 Colts had a better WR corps than we do now because Reggie wasn't even playing much back then and was still learning. Ismail was average at best, and we didn't even have Pathon.

You can't tell me the 2002 Colts were better than the 2012 Colts talent wise!

Look at the roster below from 2002. They were just mediocre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Indianapolis_Colts_season

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Loved 18 as much as any body, but am I the only one who is not really "rooting" for the Broncos this season, as looking at the weakened AFC conference overall, I feel like if the Colts can string together 8-9 wins they could very reasonably be vying for a wildcard slot, and the team that seems like could be standing in the way of that is Denver... just saying...

unrealsitic??? maybe, but I am a die hard...

With that said I did love seeing Von Miller & Denvers D "T" off against Rothlisburger in week 1....

Denver will win their division..and the Colts will vie for the 'card' Its all good..

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Let's give some credit to the Falcons defense. There wasn't arm strength issues. The ball was going to the target every time. It just happened there were Falcons in the way.

They were just bad decisions.

Atlanta was using that odd 8-man amoeba defense..were 8 guys just blob around at the line and then jump into their roles last in the play clock..

It fooled Peyton..clearly..and they dare him to go deep.

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What does arm strength have to do with the INTs he threw last night?

Those INTs were mental errors, playing too fast and not seeing the post-snap alignment eg safeties rotating over to the vacated areas he thought were open pre-snap. Manning historically has been less effective against Ds that can effectively take away his pre-snap reads which is his biggest advantage but not every D has the coordinator, personnel and scheme to pull off that style of D

His arm strength looked fine, he maybe lost 2mph or so off his throws as evidenced last week on Sunday Night Football but still had plenty of mustard to complete those deep outs

I agree & his arm strength, looked more zip than 1st game , went further down field a few times, all on offense need to get on same page and all need to learn no huddle hand signals so can execute protection and blocks better, Blocking would of allowed better screens to DT and 3 sacks after a 2 sack performance is inconsistency in that OL

Nothing against Falcons D ,Nolan disguised well , took long time before Peyton got things somewhat on track understanding it, Some good 4th down calls, Run for TD on 4trh with time a concern is gutsy, plus madfe the other 4th dwn for a TD drive

Rust takes time and need right cleaner to wear it off Plus elbow grease so takes time

Also would be nice to have Hilman for change of pace and out of the back passes, even as a wr ,He was drafted as a weapon, Problem is not hamstring now he cant block which was what I was afraid of , similar to F u Donald when he missed a bliz pickup, Moreno missed a blitz pickup assignement leading to one of the sacks in first game

ON HILLMAN

It was also determined that rookie Ronnie Hillman still needs a little more time before he’s ready to contribute. Hillman is physically recovered from the hamstring strain that caused him to miss the first two preseason games but he still needs to pick up other aspects of the tailback position, most notably pass protection.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2012/09/17/brock-osweiler-2-qb-ronnie-hillman-chris-harris-dressing/15714/

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Atlanta plays so well at home and the old tight end catches everything.

Good comeback by Denver..but they never had he ball wth a cance to go ahead..

Gonzolez just doesnt age , Broncos play teams with good big TE's and can be an issue Pats, Saints as examples

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I believe we can get between 8 to 10 wins and a possible wild card birth. I've been going back and forth with the negative realists about this for the past couple days. The realists who want me to temper my expectations because of our "perceived" lack of talent. This team we have this year has more talent then that team we took to the playoffs against the Jets when we got spanked in the first round. That team had a worse defense than we have now talent wise.

We took this mediocre bunch to the playoffs. They were not even as talented offensively as the 2012 Colts. The major difference was the offensive line which was better and more experienced than the 2012 Colts.

We are working on the OL right now and I am confident it will get better this year.

You can say Edge is better than DB and I agree, but DB can go for 1000 with some blocking certainly so it's

not that huge of a deal. I don't even think the 2002 Colts had a better WR corps than we do now because Reggie wasn't even playing much back then and was still learning. Ismail was average at best, and we didn't even have Pathon.

You can't tell me the 2002 Colts were better than the 2012 Colts talent wise!

Look at the roster below from 2002. They were just mediocre.

http://en.wikipedia....is_Colts_season

why compare 2002 Vs 20112, shouldnt it be 1998 Vs 2012 or I missed a comment somewhere

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The 2002 Colts were not more talented than the 2012 Colts

It is.

We aren't even in the top half of the league in any statistical categories this season so far. Except passing attempts and TD passes.

In '02 it was one of only two times we had a top 10 defense. The '02 team was good. We were able to move the ball, and stop the ball. We didn't put up a lot of points though.

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why compare 2002 Vs 20112, shouldnt it be 1998 Vs 2012 or I missed a comment somewhere

No because we are talking playoffs and how much talent you need to get to the playoffs. Some are saying they are not even thinking playoffs with the 2012 colts because of the "talent" level or lack there of. My point is to say that the Colts team we took to the playoffs in 2002 was far less talented than the team we have now. We have more talent than that team, so there is no way you would be off base for thinking this team doesn't have a shot at the playoffs. We do if we play the way we should.

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It is.

We aren't even in the top half of the league in any statistical categories this season so far. Except passing attempts and TD passes.

In '02 it was one of only two times we had a top 10 defense. The '02 team was good. We were able to move the ball, and stop the ball. We didn't put up a lot of points though.

We have only played 2 games. That team was not good and it clearly showed when we got in the playoffs, even before then it showed.

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It is.

We aren't even in the top half of the league in any statistical categories this season so far. Except passing attempts and TD passes.

In '02 it was one of only two times we had a top 10 defense. The '02 team was good. We were able to move the ball, and stop the ball. We didn't put up a lot of points though.

I agree 2002 is better but as I commented elsewhere, i must have missed a comment as why are we compare 2012 to 2002 & not 1998

No because we are talking playoffs and how much talent you need to get to the playoffs. Some are saying they are not even thinking playoffs with the 2012 colts because of the "talent" level or lack there of. My point is to say that the Colts team we took to the playoffs in 2002 was far less talented than the team we have now. We have more talent than that team, so there is no way you would be off base for thinking this team doesn't have a shot at the playoffs. We do if we play the way we should.

OK u just answered me

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It is.

We aren't even in the top half of the league in any statistical categories this season so far. Except passing attempts and TD passes.

In '02 it was one of only two times we had a top 10 defense. The '02 team was good. We were able to move the ball, and stop the ball. We didn't put up a lot of points though.

We are talking about talent. You can't even speak Maclin in the same breath as Vontae Davis, Harper was okay but he certainly doesn't blow powers out of the water. Bethea is better than Bashir was, and Zibikowski is certainly better than David Gibson was.

Peterson was okay, but I would take Freeman or Conner just fine. That Linebacking corps they had doesn't blow the 2012 group out of the water. Nor does the D-line they had, although it was another scheme.

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Gonzolez just doesnt age , Broncos play teams with good big TE's and can be an issue Pats, Saints as examples

also

Meanwhile

Philip Rivers, Chargers

against Tennessee threw three TD passes to former Broncos' TE Dante Rosario. who also handled return duty if remember right

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atleast they didn't lose to the cardinals
nice try there sparky . . . but the last time I checked the Cardinals are 2-0 . . . and have won something like 8 out of the last 10 games . . .
I've been hanging around on Indy boards since 2005. Those who know me know that I am not a Manning basher in the slightest. I went from hating him as a rival to having grudging respect for him to where I am now, which is to say that I highly respect and admire the career he's put together. He's one of the best all-time, no doubt in my mind. Which is why it kind of pains me to say this... Those who are saying that arm strength is not an issue are diluting themselves. I wanted to reserve judgment until I'd seen a few Broncos games, but there is no doubt in my mind after only two that Manning's arm strength is probably somewhere between 60% and 75% of where it was prior to the neck injury and surgeries. And while he has been a superstar QB throughout his career, his arm strength was never his greatest asset. Even in his prime, Manning had an above-average arm, enough to make all the throws, but he wasn't ever on-par with the arm strength of some lesser QBs who could really sling it. (Arm strength is important, but not the end-all for QBs, of course.) Accuracy and decision-making were - and probably still are - his greatest strengths. Some of the throws look good. When he has room, steps into it, etc. But the majority of them are "floaters." Even the TD pass to Thomas was a wounded duck. That thing fluttered through the air like a punt. (There's no way around that... the play was originally ruled incomplete, so we got to see the replay about 10 times.) I'm not a medical expert but it's my understanding that it can take a year or more for the nerves in his arm to regenerate and bring back the full strength of his triceps and other muscles you use to throw a football. I wish him the best, and would love to see him return to form, but I think anyone who is saying that his passes have the same kind of zip they used to have are in denial.

#1: Losing to the AZ cardinals is nothing to be ashamed of. That defensive is formidable and solid, special teams decent, wide receivers highly capable, QB play fundamental weakness. #2: NE Patriots will bounce back with a vengeance. They always do. Never underestimate Bill Belichick and Tom Brady. They will adapt and continue to win. #3: Excellent synopsis of Peyton's strengths and thank you for the kind words about #18's toughness and clutchness GOPats. If I were honest though, Peyton and the rest of the offensive aren't on the same page yet. You can't expect to replicate over a decade of INDY precision work with Denver WR's and TE's in 2 weeks though. Let's see how Peyton looks against your squad in week 5 in Foxboro first. I will reserve my judgement on #18 until I see that performance first.

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It is.

We aren't even in the top half of the league in any statistical categories this season so far. Except passing attempts and TD passes.

In '02 it was one of only two times we had a top 10 defense. The '02 team was good. We were able to move the ball, and stop the ball. We didn't put up a lot of points though.

I am talking about talent. Our stats are skewed due to the Chicago game.

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A few things were happening here:

Denver is still figuring out its identity as an offense - is it a running team that needs to pass when needed, or is it a passing team that needs to run when needed? With Peyton out there, it seems like they started off the latter way.

But if they are on the road, it might be wise to go the running team route that needs to pass when needed and then ramp up the passing game once you have a good read on the D.

On the road - huddle up more. At home - no huddle more. At least till you have more chemistry with your wideouts. It almost seemed like Peyton forgot what it felt like to play in the dome while on the road, LOL. :)

Regardless, their O-line is definitely a good run blocking O-line and they need to keep their rushing attempts around 30 on average consistently, IMO.

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I've been hanging around on Indy boards since 2005. Those who know me know that I am not a Manning basher in the slightest. I went from hating him as a rival to having grudging respect for him to where I am now, which is to say that I highly respect and admire the career he's put together. He's one of the best all-time, no doubt in my mind.

Which is why it kind of pains me to say this...

Those who are saying that arm strength is not an issue are diluting themselves. I wanted to reserve judgment until I'd seen a few Broncos games, but there is no doubt in my mind after only two that Manning's arm strength is probably somewhere between 60% and 75% of where it was prior to the neck injury and surgeries. And while he has been a superstar QB throughout his career, his arm strength was never his greatest asset. Even in his prime, Manning had an above-average arm, enough to make all the throws, but he wasn't ever on-par with the arm strength of some lesser QBs who could really sling it. (Arm strength is important, but not the end-all for QBs, of course.) Accuracy and decision-making were - and probably still are - his greatest strengths.

Some of the throws look good. When he has room, steps into it, etc. But the majority of them are "floaters." Even the TD pass to Thomas was a wounded duck. That thing fluttered through the air like a punt. (There's no way around that... the play was originally ruled incomplete, so we got to see the replay about 10 times.)

I'm not a medical expert but it's my understanding that it can take a year or more for the nerves in his arm to regenerate and bring back the full strength of his triceps and other muscles you use to throw a football.

I wish him the best, and would love to see him return to form, but I think anyone who is saying that his passes have the same kind of zip they used to have are in denial.

I thought he showed some more zip this game am hoping things improve but do agree with overall synopsi

=========================

As an aside, i meant to send u a PM regarding Robert & Myra Kraft

I never knew this

First I am of Jewish persuasion like Kraft

There was a special on TV recently that showed he started a football league in Israel , Myra was also noted for her time spent in Israel with the league

The league accepts players OF All Faiths as it should

He spent a ton making sure that things got off the ground with a good start

He said he knows they are no where near caliber of anything professional, but is a start, and perhaps 1 day in the future a player from Israel will be drafted into the NFL

I was incredibly impressed with the presentation and watching the teams play or at least the highlights & salute him as an ambassador of the sport

I can only hope peace remains long enough and teams / players get a chance to develop so he can see an Israely Player drafted and play in the NFL in his lifetime and I am sure he couldn't care what religion that player is

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It is.

We aren't even in the top half of the league in any statistical categories this season so far. Except passing attempts and TD passes.

In '02 it was one of only two times we had a top 10 defense. The '02 team was good. We were able to move the ball, and stop the ball. We didn't put up a lot of points though.

That schedule from 2002 tells you everything. Everyone we played was pretty mediocre except maybe the Giants, the Eagles and Tennessee. That's probably why that bunch even got in the playoffs in the first place. And when they played a real team it showed.

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Tamme sometimes annoys me for some reason. They have a young tight end with some good size and speed, I believe his name is Julius Thomas or something like that. I'd like to see him get some time over Tamme possibly.

I can see what your saying but since Tamme played with Peyton and knew his plays at this time until the other receivers get on the same page as Peyton it is probably a good idea to have someone(Tamme) playing because of the chemistry with Peyton. Same with Stokley in my opinion.

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Ideally, my reason for claiming that the Broncos would make it's SB next season is simple: Peyton will need a full season to gel with his offensive line, WR's, TE's and RB, Peyton will need a full season of hits to see how his body withstands the collisions on the field again, and Peyton is still undergoing his rehab regimen yet. 2013 will be Peyton's year to light the NFL ablaze and on fire IMO. No concrete facts to validate this point I will admit, just a gut feeling I have like actor Bruce Willis in the terrorist DIEHARD film franchises.

Oakland looks sad and Kansas City continues to under perform and misfire routinely. Surprising for a Romeo Crenell driven squad IMO. Therefore, the Broncos only real division threat right now are the San Diego Chargers led by Philip Rivers. The Broncos still have an above average shot at the Playoffs this year. I have my reservations about how far this squad will do once their Playoffs ticket has been punched though.

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#1: Losing to the AZ cardinals is nothing to be ashamed of. That defensive is formidable and solid, special teams decent, wide receivers highly capable, QB play fundamental weakness. #2: NE Patriots will bounce back with a vengeance. They always do. Never underestimate Bill Belichick and Tom Brady. They will adapt and continue to win. #3: Excellent synopsis of Peyton's strengths and thank you for the kind words about #18's toughness and clutchness GOPats. If I were honest though, Peyton and the rest of the offensive aren't on the same page yet. You can't expect to replicate over a decade of INDY precision work with Denver WR's and TE's in 2 weeks though. Let's see how Peyton looks against your squad in week 5 in Foxboro first. I will reserve my judgement on #18 until I see that performance first.

Oh I wouldn't go and cut #18 just yet... don't get me wrong. ;-)

Time will ultimately tell, you are 100% right. And I'm sure, as high as his standards for himself are, that if Manning feels he is not playing like, well, Peyton Manning, he'll either do what it takes to get there or will decide on his terms how this will end.

I though he showed more zip this game am hoping things improve but do agree with overall synopsi

=========================

As an aside, i meant to send u a PM regarding Robert & Myra Kraft

I never knew this

First I am of Jewish persuasion like Kraft

There was a special on TV recently that showed he started a football league in Israel , Myra was also noted for her time spent in Israel with the league

The league accepts players OF All Faiths as it should

He spent a ton making sure that things got off the ground with a good start

He said he knows they are no where near caliber of anything professional, but is a start, and perhaps 1 day in the future a player from Israel will be drafted into the NFL

I was incredibly impressed with the presentation and watching the teams play or at least the highlights & salute him as an ambassador of the sport

I can only hope peace remains long enough and teams / players get a chance to develop so he can see an Israely Player drafted and play in the NFL in his lifetime and I am sure he couldn't care what religion that player is

I had the pleasure of meeting Bob Kraft once. I was working as a journalist and covered a community event back in 1996. He was at the event with Drew Bledsoe. When they walked into the room, every reporter flocked immediately over to Drew. Kraft was standing by himself. I approached him, shook his hand, and thanked him for buying the team and keeping it in New England. He said, word for word, "Well Eric, that's what happens when a fan of a team buys the team!" That's really how this all started. He made a fortune running his in-laws' company and the Krafts have never forgotten where they came from. I have an immense amount of respect for him, his sons, and of course the late Myra.

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Oh I wouldn't go and cut #18 just yet... don't get me wrong. ;-)

Time will ultimately tell, you are 100% right. And I'm sure, as high as his standards for himself are, that if Manning feels he is not playing like, well, Peyton Manning, he'll either do what it takes to get there or will decide on his terms how this will end.

I had the pleasure of meeting Bob Kraft once. I was working as a journalist and covered a community event back in 1996. He was at the event with Drew Bledsoe. When they walked into the room, every reporter flocked immediately over to Drew. Kraft was standing by himself. I approached him, shook his hand, and thanked him for buying the team and keeping it in New England. He said, word for word, "Well Eric, that's what happens when a fan of a team buys the team!" That's really how this all started. He made a fortune running his in-laws' company and the Krafts have never forgotten where they came from. I have an immense amount of respect for him, his sons, and of course the late Myra.

Great post GoPats...thank you for sharing!!! I seem to be out of likes!!! :thmup:
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Oh I wouldn't go and cut #18 just yet... don't get me wrong. ;-) Time will ultimately tell, you are 100% right. And I'm sure, as high as his standards for himself are, that if Manning feels he is not playing like, well, Peyton Manning, he'll either do what it takes to get there or will decide on his terms how this will end. I had the pleasure of meeting Bob Kraft once. I was working as a journalist and covered a community event back in 1996. He was at the event with Drew Bledsoe. When they walked into the room, every reporter flocked immediately over to Drew. Kraft was standing by himself. I approached him, shook his hand, and thanked him for buying the team and keeping it in New England. He said, word for word, "Well Eric, that's what happens when a fan of a team buys the team!" That's really how this all started. He made a fortune running his in-laws' company and the Krafts have never forgotten where they came from. I have an immense amount of respect for him, his sons, and of course the late Myra.

Thanks for sharing that Robert Kraft story GoPats. I love it when NFL owners realize that they put their pants on just like every other person in this world and when they are gracious, down to earth, and humble. You're aces in my book Eric. Great NFL franchises have great owners: Robert Kraft, Jim Irsay, and Daniel M. Rooney. :thmup::colts::flyingelvis:

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