2 Fights at Camp...Wow

[krunk]

Or WInston could be pancaking him every play.

There were fights last season, the season before that one, and probably back until 1953.

Which one have you heard more about in training camp this year in regards to Jerry Hughes?

The pancaking or him making plays? No one who has attended the live practices has come back saying Hughes

was constantly getting pancaked. Don't get me wrong because I'm not the biggest Hughes fan but all indications

are that he is performing pretty well. Won't know until the season starts!

[Fx Stryker]

Which one have you heard more about in training camp this year in regards to Jerry Hughes?

The pancaking or him making plays? No one who has attended the live practices has come back saying Hughes

was constantly getting pancaked. Don't get me wrong because I'm not the biggest Hughes fan but all indications

are that he is performing pretty well. Won't know until the season starts!

Just saying it can go either.

[Coltsman1788]

This is definitely something new for Colts training camp. Can't think of ever hearing about any kind of skirmish or fight the last several years. If there was any I can't remember them.

Yes...and I am loving it. Pagano's camp is injecting some of that "Baltimore nasty" into this team.

[ruksak]

My thoughts exactly

...and I hate to say this. I'm not trying to dig at scabs....just making a point.....I dang sure guarantee you that Peyton would NOT tolerate that kind of garbage and lack of focus getting so routine.

Ya know how fights have broken out at Broncos camp? That's right.....zero from what I've heard.

Leadership.

[Quantum88]

...and I hate to say this. I'm not trying to dig at scabs....just making a point.....I dang sure guarantee you that Peyton would NOT tolerate that kind of garbage and lack of focus getting so routine.

Ya know how fights have broken out at Broncos camp? That's right.....zero from what I've heard.

Leadership.

Dungy sat everyone down after a fight broke out his first year as our coach and told them that would not be tolerated as it indicated undisciplined behavior and could lead to penalties at critical points in a game. I can guarantee you that Peyton would not have tolerated it as he wanted practice to be crisp, precise and constantly moving. Before you jump and say Dungy's defense was soft, remember his mentor was Chuck Noll and I guarantee you that no one accused him or his Steelers of being soft.

[Gavin]

...and I hate to say this. I'm not trying to dig at scabs....just making a point.....I dang sure guarantee you that Peyton would NOT tolerate that kind of garbage and lack of focus getting so routine.

Ya know how fights have broken out at Broncos camp? That's right.....zero from what I've heard.

Leadership.

Peyton also is not dealing with a ton of new players being thrown together that are trying to become a team.....let alone make the team, that helps

[Gavin]

Dungy sat everyone down after a fight broke out his first year as our coach and told them that would not be tolerated as it indicated undisciplined behavior and could lead to penalties at critical points in a game. I can guarantee you that Peyton would not have tolerated it as he wanted practice to be crisp, precise and constantly moving. Before you jump and say Dungy's defense was soft, remember his mentor was Chuck Noll and I guarantee you that no one accused him or his Steelers of being soft.

Dungys defense wasn't soft, the players (From the Colts past defenses) were the ones that were soft physically or mentally and in some cases both.....example...Kevin Thomas physically soft.......example Antonio Johnson mentally soft

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Or WInston could be pancaking him every play.

There were fights last season, the season before that one, and probably back until 1953.

Highly doubtful Winston is pancaking anyone!!

[ruksak]

Peyton also is not dealing with a ton of new players being thrown together that are trying to become a team.....let alone make the team, that helps

True, but circumstance aside, focus was that mans key to success and fighting with your teammates is a serious circumnavigation of focus.

Just sayin....I would be ecstatic to hear of Andrew flippin his lid and belting out that foghorn voice toward his O-lineman for getting froggy like that.

[John Waylon]

True, but circumstance aside, focus was that mans key to success and fighting with your teammates is a serious circumnavigation of focus.

Just sayin....I would be ecstatic to hear of Andrew flippin his lid and belting out that foghorn voice toward his O-lineman for getting froggy like that.

I agree, but at the same time I kinda understand why he don't. Might look bad with the rookie trying to get all drill sergeant on the team, even if he IS the leader... But by next season, he should start to have that "Peyton presence" that everyone else knows "What he says goes. If it's gonna irk him, we don't do it."

[Gavin]

I always thought Winston Justice was immature in my opinion and still do think that, I also question his work ethic, a guy that was a 2nd round pick has had 5 years now to establish hmself as the man in Philly and did not get it done says red flag to me, Mcglynn I am not sure on he looked soft in Cincy in the 4 games he started, I did not follow him at all in Philly

[BrentMc11]

54 players have and R or a 1 next to their name. If these guys do not show what it takes with mental and physical toughness they more than likely will never make any NFL team, let alone this rebuilding Colts team. Pagano is a a gym rat. He wants tough guys. He is preaching this toughness on a daily basis. Thus to see two players who have been criticized for lack of effort extending plays and scuffling is a welcome site. Tony Dungy is in the booth now.....this is a Raven-esque/Steeler-esque approach. Grigson was an OL......he wants a mean-streak. I want a mean streak in my offensive lineman!!!!

As stated in another thread, it was 97 degrees yesterday. The players were in pads. Every team I ever played for has had some kind of skirmish in the locker-room and or on field especially on the hottest of days. It is absurd for anyone to think battles are not going to occur at a line of scrimmage. This is football not tiddlywinks or badminton. Pagano preaches build the monster. Not build the doll house. This is an old school coach...that is old school football and I love it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is mine.

[ruksak]

I agree, but at the same time I kinda understand why he don't. Might look bad with the rookie trying to get all drill sergeant on the team, even if he IS the leader... But by next season, he should start to have that "Peyton presence" that everyone else knows "What he says goes. If it's gonna irk him, we don't do it."

Yep. Good news is, I think the kid has it in him. He used to being a leader. It takes time.

[Poster X]

Fight, Fight, Fight. I can't remember the last time I heard of any member of the Colts getting into one at practice.

[Gavin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Grigson Grigson was a 6th round pick so I am not sure if I am that excited about his ability to pick out good O Lineman, he wasn't exactly a highly thought of one, Im just not a person that will buy into his ability to find good O Lineman because he was one, Now if the guy was Willie Roaf or someone of that caliber I would be because Roafs style of play has been a proven success, Im not saying Grigson dont know what to look for in O Linemen, But he has alot more to prove to me then he was a former O Lineman

[Jason_]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ryan_Grigson Grigson was a 6th round pick so I am not sure if I am that excited about his ability to pick out good O Lineman, he wasn't exactly a highly thought of one, Im just not a person that will buy into his ability to find good O Lineman because he was one, Now if the guy was Willie Roaf or someone of that caliber I would be because Roafs style of play has been a proven success, Im not saying Grigson dont know what to look for in O Linemen, But he has alot more to prove to me then he was a former O Lineman

Knowing how to do something and being physically capable of doing something are 2 very different things. Just because Grigson himself wasn't an all-pro offensive lineman doesn't mean he knows what it takes to be one. Sean Salisbury was a horrible QB but is one of the more intelligent and knowledgeable broadcasters that I've listened to. The simple fact was he knew what it took to be a good QB but he did not have the physical abilities to be able to do it himself.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm not willilng to just blindly believe that Grigson will be an expert in spotting quality offensive linemen just because he was one himself. However, I also won't consider the fact that he himself was never an all-pro to be indicative of him being incapable of spotting quality offensive linemen.

[Restored]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ryan_Grigson Grigson was a 6th round pick so I am not sure if I am that excited about his ability to pick out good O Lineman, he wasn't exactly a highly thought of one, Im just not a person that will buy into his ability to find good O Lineman because he was one, Now if the guy was Willie Roaf or someone of that caliber I would be because Roafs style of play has been a proven success, Im not saying Grigson dont know what to look for in O Linemen, But he has alot more to prove to me then he was a former O Lineman

Pretty sure your position as an NFL player vs. your position as a coach and GM have two different criteria's. Just because Grigson himself wasn't that skilled doesn't mean he wouldn't know how to evaluate it. Jim Harbaugh himself was an average QB and is already proving to be a good coach. And Grigson, unlike Polian's son, actually earned his stripes and worked his way up from the lowest of scouts to GM. He's more than qualified and time will tell.

[Gavin]

Knowing how to do something and being physically capable of doing something are 2 very different things. Just because Grigson himself wasn't an all-pro offensive lineman doesn't mean he knows what it takes to be one. Sean Salisbury was a horrible QB but is one of the more intelligent and knowledgeable broadcasters that I've listened to. The simple fact was he knew what it took to be a good QB but he did not have the physical abilities to be able to do it himself.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm not willilng to just blindly believe that Grigson will be an expert in spotting quality offensive linemen just because he was one himself. However, I also won't consider the fact that he himself was never an all-pro to be indicative of him being incapable of spotting quality offensive linemen.

Oh I never said he was incapable, I just meant to say that he hass to prove that he is capable

[BrentMc11]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ryan_Grigson Grigson was a 6th round pick so I am not sure if I am that excited about his ability to pick out good O Lineman, he wasn't exactly a highly thought of one, Im just not a person that will buy into his ability to find good O Lineman because he was one, Now if the guy was Willie Roaf or someone of that caliber I would be because Roafs style of play has been a proven success, Im not saying Grigson dont know what to look for in O Linemen, But he has alot more to prove to me then he was a former O Lineman

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ryan_Grigson Grigson was a 6th round pick so I am not sure if I am that excited about his ability to pick out good O Lineman, he wasn't exactly a highly thought of one, Im just not a person that will buy into his ability to find good O Lineman because he was one, Now if the guy was Willie Roaf or someone of that caliber I would be because Roafs style of play has been a proven success, Im not saying Grigson dont know what to look for in O Linemen, But he has alot more to prove to me then he was a former O Lineman

What does this have to do with this topic? Was this meant for the Grigson thread? Eagle trades/talent?

[Warhorse]

I would see players fighting to get a roster spot as a good thing. Physically fighting each other, although occasionally a result of the conditions (as mentioned), is a sign of lack of focus. If it becomes common, I would be concerned. If it goes away after this first new roster is determined, I think we'll be alright.

[austriancolt]

Jerry Hughes finally shows some fire! I like what i read about him so far, looks like he is fighting for his last chance.

[Superman]

Oh I never said he was incapable, I just meant to say that he hass to prove that he is capable

That has nothing to do with where he was drafted. The fact that he played offensive line does lend credibility to him when it comes to evaluating offensive linemen. He sat in the meeting rooms, watched film, went through the drills, played in the games. He understands what linemen do, how they do it, what they struggle with, etc. It doesn't prove that he's a great evaluator of linemen, but he has the inside track.

Sean Payton went undrafted. One of the best offensive coaches of the last five years, if not the best.

[Gavin]

That has nothing to do with where he was drafted. The fact that he played offensive line does lend credibility to him when it comes to evaluating offensive linemen. He sat in the meeting rooms, watched film, went through the drills, played in the games. He understands what linemen do, how they do it, what they struggle with, etc. It doesn't prove that he's a great evaluator of linemen, but he has the inside track.

Sean Payton went undrafted. One of the best offensive coaches of the last five years, if not the best.

Maybe not but I would still take the Pro Bowl O Lineman to evaluate talent over 6th round pick. of course I dont know how well Grigsons eye is at scouting talent at O Line but I am awfully concerned about him bringing over Mcglynn and Justice just because he is familiar with them, being familiar with a player or players can be great if those players showed well in the past, neither of which have consistently and at times have played quite bad

[Superman]

Maybe not but I would still take the Pro Bowl O Lineman to evaluate talent over 6th round pick. of course I dont know how well Grigsons eye is at scouting talent at O Line but I am awfully concerned about him bringing over Mcglynn and Justice just because he is familiar with them, being familiar with a player or players can be great if those players showed well in the past, neither of which have consistently and at times have played quite bad

They are auxiliary adds, not big time acquisitions. We swapped 6th rounders for Justice, I believe. And we signed McGlynn to a very minimal deal. I don't think anyone is pinning their hopes on Justice and McGlynn. They are both expected to be stopgaps, at best.

And I don't think this has anything to do with whether Grigson was a HOF lineman or not. Like I said, some of the best talent evaluators and coaches were very poorly rated as players.

[TKnight24]

They are auxiliary adds, not big time acquisitions. We swapped 6th rounders for Justice, I believe. And we signed McGlynn to a very minimal deal. I don't think anyone is pinning their hopes on Justice and McGlynn. They are both expected to be stopgaps, at best.

And I don't think this has anything to do with whether Grigson was a HOF lineman or not. Like I said, some of the best talent evaluators and coaches were very poorly rated as players.

1st off, Congrats on becoming a "Forum Moderator".

Now, I think Justice is a Good player. I hope he gets the starting line-up when we play St. Louis on the 12th. I hope he really makes an Impact

[Superman]

1st off, Congrats on becoming a "Forum Moderator".

Now, I think Justice is a Good player. I hope he gets the starting line-up when we play St. Louis on the 12th. I hope he really makes an Impact

Thanks.

I'm not over the moon about Justice (I think I've mentioned before, I knew him, know his family, etc.) But I don't think he's the bum he's made out to be. And even if he is, he's essentially cost us 16 spots in the 6th round (we turned around and traded down again in the Stanton deal, so the logistics of the Justice trade don't matter; that one 6th rounder got us three players). I don't see anybody complaining about Justin Anderson, but if I had to choose between the two, I'm taking the vet who has been okay for the past couple of seasons over the moderately rated 7th rounder with no NFL experience.

Another poster was talking about Linkenbach a few days ago, how he gets judged mostly on the basis of one play against the Chargers in 2010. I think Linkenbach proved over the course of three games that he wasn't a good guard, but the point is true. When someone has a bad game or a bad play, they get labeled as a bad player forever, particularly by people who haven't spent much time paying attention to them. In Justice's case, he got schooled -- bad -- in his first ever start, by one of the best pass rushers in the league. He's now a bad player, and always will be.

I disagree. He's not Pro Bowl material, but he's not the scum of the earth, either. He's better than Linkenbach was last season at right tackle, and as such, is an improvement. Even if he's only here for one season, I'll take it.

I expect the offensive line to get a lot of attention from our front office after this season. But in the meantime, we have some average players that might work out okay for us.

[jimirsaysdog]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ryan_Grigson Grigson was a 6th round pick so I am not sure if I am that excited about his ability to pick out good O Lineman, he wasn't exactly a highly thought of one, Im just not a person that will buy into his ability to find good O Lineman because he was one, Now if the guy was Willie Roaf or someone of that caliber I would be because Roafs style of play has been a proven success, Im not saying Grigson dont know what to look for in O Linemen, But he has alot more to prove to me then he was a former O Lineman

i'm certain he's much more qualified than you or anyone else here.

[jimirsaysdog]

Maybe not but I would still take the Pro Bowl O Lineman to evaluate talent over 6th round pick. of course I dont know how well Grigsons eye is at scouting talent at O Line but I am awfully concerned about him bringing over Mcglynn and Justice just because he is familiar with them, being familiar with a player or players can be great if those players showed well in the past, neither of which have consistently and at times have played quite bad

why is your opinion more credible than the highly compensated professional football executive ?

[jimirsaysdog]

Oh I never said he was incapable, I just meant to say that he hass to prove that he is capable

prove to who ? the owner obviously believes he is. that's the only guy he has to prove it to.

[jimirsaysdog]

I always thought Winston Justice was immature in my opinion and still do think that, I also question his work ethic, a guy that was a 2nd round pick has had 5 years now to establish hmself as the man in Philly and did not get it done says red flag to me, Mcglynn I am not sure on he looked soft in Cincy in the 4 games he started, I did not follow him at all in Philly

have you ever met winston justice ? if not how do you judge his maturity ? posters like you kill me.

[Gavin]

have you ever met winston justice ? if not how do you judge his maturity ? posters like you kill me.

Actually I talked to him a bit while I was getting his autograph so yeah I met him and no it wasn't a lengthy conversation but you can learn somethings from someone just by listening to them converse with others, as for whether or not he has the talent, as I said I hope he shows different then what he has at Philly, he was let go from a team Grigson was associated with already and its a safe assumption Grigson picked him up do to the familiarity with him not because he has played real good at Philly, if that was the case then why did Philly give up so little for him? The dude may surprise but Im not counting on it like so many are, he hasn't lived up to his draft status thus far and obviously Philly did not think he would, I think I will value Howard Mudds opinion on his ability and so forth over Grigsons at this point until proven wrong....at which time I will gladly admit I was wrong but as mentioned by another poster here its likely he is at best a Stop Gap player

[Malakai432]

Just because the players are beating the snot out of each other .....it doesn't mean this is a good sign that "they're hungry". It could also mean that they're immature and undisciplined.

Good point but lets just hope it's a sign of intensity or aka "hunger." If they are hungry I guess they can always go get some Qdoba though.

[krunk]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ryan_Grigson Grigson was a 6th round pick so I am not sure if I am that excited about his ability to pick out good O Lineman, he wasn't exactly a highly thought of one, Im just not a person that will buy into his ability to find good O Lineman because he was one, Now if the guy was Willie Roaf or someone of that caliber I would be because Roafs style of play has been a proven success, Im not saying Grigson dont know what to look for in O Linemen, But he has alot more to prove to me then he was a former O Lineman

I think talent evaluation is something you either have or you don't. Even if it was Willie Roaf it doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't suck at choosing O lineman. But as far as the level of confidence you have in the person I can see how you would feel like the person with the better player resume would do better picking certain positions, such as the case of Mike Munchak being involved in the process of picking O lineman for the Titans. Mike Ditka was a pretty good tight end, but I don't recall too many great tight ends that were on his teams.

Either you can evaluate talent or you can't.

[Superman]

Actually I talked to him a bit while I was getting his autograph so yeah I met him and no it wasn't a lengthy conversation but you can learn somethings from someone just by listening to them converse with others, as for whether or not he has the talent, as I said I hope he shows different then what he has at Philly, he was let go from a team Grigson was associated with already and its a safe assumption Grigson picked him up do to the familiarity with him not because he has played real good at Philly, if that was the case then why did Philly give up so little for him? The dude may surprise but Im not counting on it like so many are, he hasn't lived up to his draft status thus far and obviously Philly did not think he would, I think I will value Howard Mudds opinion on his ability and so forth over Grigsons at this point until proven wrong....at which time I will gladly admit I was wrong but as mentioned by another poster here its likely he is at best a Stop Gap player

1) We surrendered 16 spots in the 6th round for Justice. I really don't know what kind of expectations you think should come with a player that we got for so little.

2) It's laughable that you would label someone as immature based on meeting him at training camp and listening to conversations with others.

[Gavin]

1) We surrendered 16 spots in the 6th round for Justice. I really don't know what kind of expectations you think should come with a player that we got for so little.

2) It's laughable that you would label someone as immature based on meeting him at training camp and listening to conversations with others.

1. I expect very little from him which makes my whole point, sure we gave up a late round pick which is ot a big deal at all except that we did not improve the team by doing so, I tend to think the guy was a 2nd round pick and we shoud get the kinda talent that round suggests whch isnt top of the line but is certainly better then what he showed, he went in the 2nd round I think the talent is there but clearly there seems to be questions about him work ethic or otherwise, there was in college

2.People get ideas and make judgements about a persons character all the time, if your judging me for that then your judging human nature itself, surely you have made a judgement on a persons character or at the very least gotten some sort feel for a person in a short conversation with someone, I dont recall labeling him a bad person, Justice was in trouble twice with the law before enrolling at USC, once for supposedly soliciting a prostitute http://www.footballsfuture.com/2006/prospects/winston_justice.html

[Jay Kirk]

My take on this thread is,its great to see some passion and intensity on the field.I think thats the kinda team Pags and Grigs are building,i think you will see it in the first preseaon game.The monster is ready to make some HITS!!!!!!!!!!

[Superman]

1. I expect very little from him which makes my whole point, sure we gave up a late round pick which is ot a big deal at all except that we did not improve the team by doing so, I tend to think the guy was a 2nd round pick and we shoud get the kinda talent that round suggests whch isnt top of the line but is certainly better then what he showed, he went in the 2nd round I think the talent is there but clearly there seems to be questions about him work ethic or otherwise, there was in college

We did improve the team, unless you think so little of Justice that you'd rather have Linkenbach playing right tackle.

You don't get 2nd round talent for 16 spots in the 6th round. There's no question Justice hasn't lived up to his draft status (you want a 5-7 year starter for a 2nd round pick, at least).

There were no questions about his work ethic in college. He made a couple of stupid mistakes in college that cost him a year of playing time, but he was never pegged as not having a solid work ethic.

2.People get ideas and make judgements about a persons character all the time, if your judging me for that then your judging human nature itself,

Do you really think your interactions with the man are substantive enough to determine whether he's immature or not? Chalk it up to human nature if you like; it's silly. You don't know any of these people.

Vince Young has given the public plenty of reason to question his maturity. Help me understand what it is about Justice that makes you think he's immature, aside from a brief interaction you witnessed at camp? Grigson is familiar with him as a player and a person, and thought him mature enough to bring over.

surely you have made a judgement on a persons character or at the very least gotten some sort feel for a person in a short conversation with someone, I dont recall labeling him a bad person, Justice was in trouble twice with the law before enrolling at USC, once for supposedly soliciting a prostitute http://www.footballs...on_justice.html

I'm very familiar with the incidents in question. Being an immature 18 year old is not equal to being an immature 27 year old. Do you think there's anyone that didn't do something stupid and immature as an 18 year old college athlete?

I mentioned before that I knew him when this happened. I know his family. It was stupid, and he paid for it. Seems that he learned from it, as well, as he's not had any issues since he's been in the league.

You didn't call him a bad person, but you're obsessed with hanging his acquisition over Grigson's head, as if, should he not work out here, Grigson made a mistake. I happen to believe that the way Grigson handled our 6th rounder was brilliant. We got a veteran offensive tackle (upgrade), a veteran backup quarterback (upgrade), and a rookie OLB with one pick. Justice could bomb, but if Stanton is a decent backup and Fugger makes the team and contributes on special teams, it was still a good trade.

[Gavin]

We did improve the team, unless you think so little of Justice that you'd rather have Linkenbach playing right tackle.

You don't get 2nd round talent for 16 spots in the 6th round. There's no question Justice hasn't lived up to his draft status (you want a 5-7 year starter for a 2nd round pick, at least).

There were no questions about his work ethic in college. He made a couple of stupid mistakes in college that cost him a year of playing time, but he was never pegged as not having a solid work ethic.

Do you really think your interactions with the man are substantive enough to determine whether he's immature or not? Chalk it up to human nature if you like; it's silly. You don't know any of these people.

Vince Young has given the public plenty of reason to question his maturity. Help me understand what it is about Justice that makes you think he's immature, aside from a brief interaction you witnessed at camp? Grigson is familiar with him as a player and a person, and thought him mature enough to bring over.

I'm very familiar with the incidents in question. Being an immature 18 year old is not equal to being an immature 27 year old. Do you think there's anyone that didn't do something stupid and immature as an 18 year old college athlete?

I mentioned before that I knew him when this happened. I know his family. It was stupid, and he paid for it. Seems that he learned from it, as well, as he's not had any issues since he's been in the league.

You didn't call him a bad person, but you're obsessed with hanging his acquisition over Grigson's head, as if, should he not work out here, Grigson made a mistake. I happen to believe that the way Grigson handled our 6th rounder was brilliant. We got a veteran offensive tackle (upgrade), a veteran backup quarterback (upgrade), and a rookie OLB with one pick. Justice could bomb, but if Stanton is a decent backup and Fugger makes the team and contributes on special teams, it was still a good trade.

Im speaking of Justice and Justice alone, not Fugger or any other player we picked up, No Im not hanging that over Grigsons head, Grigson did what was familiar, I also have a right to question the pickup considering Justice or heck Mcglynn for that matter if were talking of other players did not exactly impress anyone in Philly and in Mcglynns case Cincy as well, Im not so quick to consider him an upgrade over Link just yet even though Link was awful, I dont see why anyone would consider either one of these guys upgrades yet (Mcglynn or Justice) without them playing a single down, we will just have to wait and see at the end of the day but fact is Justice nor Mcglynn were that good in there previous stops or else they would not have been let go or traded for next to nothing

[Creekside]

Just because the players are beating the snot out of each other .....it doesn't mean this is a good sign that "they're hungry". It could also mean that they're immature and undisciplined.

...........The Colts have had so many good to great players throughout the Manning era who kept their emotions in check. They didn't have "a mean streak".

[Gavin]

Having an O Line that will hopefully have a mean streak will be a welcome sight