Colts offseason discussion / Ballard Grievances (merge)

[stitches]

9 hours ago, w87r said:

DE:(6) Samson Ebukam, Kwity Paye, Dayo Odeyingbo, Tyquan Lewis, Titus Leo, Isaiah Land 

 

DT:(5) Deforest Buckner, Grover Stewart, Raekwon Davis, Adetomiwa Adebawore, Eric Johnson

 

 

DL is looking pretty solidified right now.

 

Wouldn't mind adding though.

 

And subtracting Johnson.

Here's my question - how do you evaluate the season this DL had last year? Where would you put them in the hierarchy of the league? When we call it solidified... what is it solidified into? Elite? Great? Good? Average? Mediocre? To me this DL is somewhere between average and mediocre. I.e. not good enough... 

[Indeee]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

That was like a 4 years ago. Since then he's been at best mediocre. 

Maybe? How much weight would you put on that? From a coach who's never coached in the NFL? I think our pro scouting and player personnel department had much more to do with it than the new coach. 

That's the thing... this is nothing new. This is the exact same thing Ballard does every year - this is the Isaac Rochelle, Taven Bryan, Sam Tevi of this year. Pick up a failed/mediocre at best player for depth/reclamation project in the trenches. Except this year, he's paying 14M for that depth piece, who you hope will never see the field(i,e, Grover stays healthy). And I don't mind the addition of depth to the roster. We needed a better backup for Grover. I just don't like the allocation of resources. 

This is what I truly believe a lot of forum members do not understand when people like me criticize Ballard's moves. 

 

I just normally do not go into insightful detail as most times I'm under the impression that the casual fan is smart enough to see where the majority of the NFL landscape lies and relate it to where our team falls in player acquisition and where the money is going based on position.

 

The bolded is the absolute fact here and I couldn't agree with you more. Ballard has allocated resources, i.e. money for the laymen, into positions that do not lay atop the current landscape and when he does, most recent case of Davis, it's on a player that clearly has underperformed past his rook year for whatever reason. I mean at this point based on this signing, would any of us not be surprised if Ballard signed Chase Young to a contract that clearly would over exceed or fall into head scratching territory over his current earning value based on production? Very similar player to Davis as far as career trajectory at this stage. 

 

I keep hoping for a switch to flip but I think I'm truly over this Ballard experiment. It stinks because I like the guy when he talks and stuff but if these moves are not clearly on Ballard as some suggest he listens to his scouts and such then he needs to get new scouts and/or stop listening to them

 

 

 

 

[w87r]

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Here's my question - how do you evaluate the season this DL had last year? Where would you put them in the hierarchy of the league? When we call it solidified... what is it solidified into? Elite? Great? Good? Average? Mediocre? To me this DL is somewhere between average and mediocre. I.e. not good enough... 

I think the DL did just fine last year. Near top of the league in sacks, with a young secondary. Very good against the run, when Grover was playing.

 

 

 

When I say solidified, I am really referring to the fact that 2 days ago we had (3) DTs on the roster and a little thin outside.

 

Now we have kept Grover and added Davis to the group.

 

Bringing Lewis back helps inside and outside.

[w87r]

"Davis is a massive, space-eating defensive tackle with extreme length and power. He has the versatility to line up at both the one-technique and the three-technique defensive tackle positions.

 

The contract is also a pretty simple, short-term deal. All of the guaranteed money is locked up in 2024, and the Colts can save $6.49 million against the cap if they need to part ways in 2025

 

Overall, the Colts needed to find viable depth at defensive tackle, especially behind the aforementioned Stewart. There’s a good chance they’ve done that on a relatively cheap deal with Davis.

Grade: B"

 

[Indeee]

6 minutes ago, w87r said:

"Davis is a massive, space-eating defensive tackle with extreme length and power. He has the versatility to line up at both the one-technique and the three-technique defensive tackle positions.

 

The contract is also a pretty simple, short-term deal. All of the guaranteed money is locked up in 2024, and the Colts can save $6.49 million against the cap if they need to part ways in 2025

 

Overall, the Colts needed to find viable depth at defensive tackle, especially behind the aforementioned Stewart. There’s a good chance they’ve done that on a relatively cheap deal with Davis.

Grade: B"

 

It's all subjective here. I have really good friends who are Phins fans and they told me Davis was meh. 

 

It really comes down to what you expect out of him and Davis is really nothing more than a space eater. To this, it just seemed like you could get this type of guy in the later draft rounds and use the 7 mil elsewhere. 

 

That's pretty much the gist of it

[krunk]

17 minutes ago, stitches said:

Here's my question - how do you evaluate the season this DL had last year? Where would you put them in the hierarchy of the league? When we call it solidified... what is it solidified into? Elite? Great? Good? Average? Mediocre? To me this DL is somewhere between average and mediocre. I.e. not good enough... 

51 sacks isn't average or mediocre

[John Hammonds]

4 minutes ago, w87r said:

"Davis is a massive, space-eating defensive tackle with extreme length and power. He has the versatility to line up at both the one-technique and the three-technique defensive tackle positions.

 

The contract is also a pretty simple, short-term deal. All of the guaranteed money is locked up in 2024, and the Colts can save $6.49 million against the cap if they need to part ways in 2025

 

Overall, the Colts needed to find viable depth at defensive tackle, especially behind the aforementioned Stewart. There’s a good chance they’ve done that on a relatively cheap deal with Davis.

Grade: B"

 

For me, this move takes T'Vondre Sweat off of the board for us in the second round.  Makes it easier to spend that second round pick on a safety or a receiver, whatever.  We don't have to chain ourselves to addressing the run defense in Grover's absence through the draft.  Gives us more ability to make choices.

[stitches]

8 minutes ago, w87r said:

I think the DL did just fine last year. Near top of the league in sacks, with a young secondary. Very good against the run, when Grover was playing.

 

 

 

When I say solidified, I am really referring to the fact that 2 days ago we had (3) DTs on the roster and a little thin outside.

 

Now we have kept Grover and added Davis to the group.

 

Bringing Lewis back helps inside and outside.

Yeah... we definitely have bodies now. The DL is taking shape. I'm just not sure it's good enough for the resources we are spending... and I'm not sure the resources we are spending are well directed. 

[richard pallo]

2 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

For me, this move takes T'Vondre Sweat off of the board for us in the second round.  Makes it easier to spend that second round pick on a safety or a receiver, whatever.  We don't have to chain ourselves to addressing the run defense in Grover's absence through the draft.  Gives us more ability to make choices.

Sweat would be more of a long term plan.  Like the critique said we can get out in 2025 and save over 6m in cap.  So, for me, a DT is still on the board.

[MFT5]

11 minutes ago, krunk said:

51 sacks isn't average or mediocre

 

where are those numbers against good teams & offenses … the bengals backup qb shredded the colts “elite” D Line lol

[John Hammonds]

4 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Sweat would be more of a long term plan.  Like the critique said we can get out in 2025 and save over 6m in cap.  So, for me, a DT is still on the board.

Oh, I agree.  We still have the option to go DT.  I guess for me, it's that we no longer have the need to go DT.

If we go WR, FS, DE, LB, OL I won't lose sleep over it.

[throwing BBZ]

16 minutes ago, stitches said:

Here's my question - how do you evaluate the season this DL had last year? Where would you put them in the hierarchy of the league? When we call it solidified... what is it solidified into? Elite? Great? Good? Average? Mediocre? To me this DL is somewhere between average and mediocre. I.e. not good enough... 

 

 With Grover it was definitely a good line. Above good against the run.

One of the best getting sacks, this with a simple minded, very passive back seven that was to easy pass on.

 We Should be, few have the sense, be excited with the prospect of Kwity and Dayo hitting the prime portion of their careers (years 4-7), with Lewis's rotational value, and getting Bryan and Johnson out of the rotation. And we do have a 2nd year pass rusher that should get more snaps this season.

 Yes, it's a mystery today if Ballard can put more than a bottom 5 back seven on the field. Our Dline will be good+. Again.

[stitches]

23 minutes ago, krunk said:

51 sacks isn't average or mediocre

51 sacks is not representative of the strength of that DL. Sacks are very much luck dependent. A much more representative stat is the number(%) of pressures, hits, hurries and there we've been around the bottom of the league for years. This DL is not good at disrupting the passer. 

 

I posted a graph recently that encapsulated well the struggles of this DL... I'm trying to find it, but can't right now. Will come back to you if/when I find it. 

 

Edit: Here it is:

 

This defense doesn't blitz and it doesn't pressure the QB. It provides very limited disruption of the opposing QB. We pretty much allow them to drop back, scan the field and execute their offense. IMO this defense will never be great when the fundamentals of it's pass-disruption are this poor.

[krunk]

8 minutes ago, MFT5 said:

 

where are those numbers against good teams & offenses … the bengals backup qb shredded the colts “elite” D Line lol

Oh please. We didn't even have a secondary to help them get home. It all plays together

[krunk]

10 minutes ago, stitches said:

51 sacks is not representative of the strength of that DL. Sacks are very much luck dependent. A much more representative stat is the number(%) of pressures, hits, hurries and there we've been around the bottom of the league for years. This DL is not good at disrupting the passer. 

 

I posted a graph recently that encapsulated well the struggles of this DL... I'm trying to find it, but can't right now. Will come back to you if/when I find it. 

When did sacks become luck? Obviously there's pressure from somewhere happening

[throwing BBZ]

5 minutes ago, MFT5 said:

 

where are those numbers against good teams & offenses … the bengals backup qb shredded the colts “elite” D Line lol

 

 You sound silly. Use of the word elite makes you a joke.

 And have to laugh that you state the line got shredded when our back seven, as a unit, was obviously so poor in coverage All Season. And the record setting season the year before btw.

[w87r]

6 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

For me, this move takes T'Vondre Sweat off of the board for us in the second round.  Makes it easier to spend that second round pick on a safety or a receiver, whatever.  We don't have to chain ourselves to addressing the run defense in Grover's absence through the draft.  Gives us more ability to make choices.

Yeah I agree with this. Loved the idea of Sweat as well.

 

Actually with all the moves so far, it really has opened up BPA come draft time, I know that's what it should be all the time, but need often supercedes what is considered BPA.

 

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah... we definitely have bodies now. The DL is taking shape. I'm just not sure it's good enough for the resources we are spending... and I'm not sure the resources we are spending are well directed. 

I just think too much is getting made over the contract(push back, not $$)(Davis)

 

Essentially a 1yr deal, if he fails to live up to expectations he's can be gone.

 

Top DTs are making $25-$30m a year, $7m for a well needed backup is ok with me and seems to be where the market is heading potentially.

 

And one that seems to have the versatility to play the 1T and the 3T. Will that play out? Idk, but I'm not going to be upset with filling one of our biggest needs with Davis, even if that means we had to pay a little more than we might want.

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, krunk said:

When did sacks become luck? Obviously there's pressure from somewhere happening

They are heavily influenced by luck on a team basis. We had really high sack numbers and really low pressure numbers. In the long run what's more predictive and descriptive of the strength of the pass-rush is the pressure rates, not the sacks. 

[w87r]

16 minutes ago, MFT5 said:

 

where are those numbers against good teams & offenses … the bengals backup qb shredded the colts “elite” D Line lol

Seems as if you might of contradicted the point you were trying to make in the first sentence, with the 2nd sentence?

 

 

[DougDew]

12 hours ago, 1959Colts said:

Coming out of college NFL Network compared Davis to DeForest Buckner.

 

https://www.ninersnation.com/2020/4/17/21225086/alabama-dt-raekwon-davis-says-the-49ers-have-been-showing-the-most-interest-in-him

Alabama DT Raekwon Davis says the 49ers have been showing the most interest in him

Here is your “space-eating DT”

 

Alabama’s defensive tackle Raekwon Davis told Pro Football Talk he’s been in contact with five teams the most and listed the San Francisco 49ers first. Coincidentally enough, the 6’6”, 311-pound lineman didn’t test well at the NFL Combine as he was average to below average across the board. NFL Network’s comparison for him? DeForest Buckner...

 

...Davis is a big-framed and versatile four-year Crimson Tide defensive lineman who has all of the physical tools to be a three-down starter, but his pass rush has yet to catch up to his run defense.

 

Davis projects best as a 3-technique at the next level and a plug-and-play two down starter for run defense. He has the versatility to anchor from the nose tackle position and also the frame and length to set the edge as a 5-tech, but his combination of traits fit best over a guard. His inconsistent motor and pass-rush limitations frustratingly offset his run defense, size, and prototypical body. If he can put it all together, he has massive potential...

Davis is tall and also has 34 inch arms.  Go figure. 

 

With his college and NFL resume, it should put the Colts in even better position to stop TEN and Derrick Henry from running over us on the way to the AFC South Title.

 

Wait......

[MFT5]

21 minutes ago, w87r said:

Seems as if you might of contradicted the point you were trying to make in the first sentence, with the 2nd sentence?

 

 

 

no i’m not i’m eluding to the fact that if it happens w good teams the fact that it also happens when a decent coordinator can take a backup & make him a top 5 qb against this elite pass rush … yu should be alarmed 

[MFT5]

40 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 You sound silly. Use of the word elite makes you a joke.

 And have to laugh that you state the line got shredded when our back seven, as a unit, was obviously so poor in coverage All Season. And the record setting season the year before btw.

 

using the words “elite” en quotations is making fun of the fact that ppl think the colts getting 51 sacks makes the colts elite when actually they only look elite against mediocre teams, learn to listen b4 attacking kid. blame your d coordinator & GM for the back 7 issues. they refuse to help them w trash schemes & subpar talent

 

last time i checked that hasn’t changed so i dnt wanna hear the excuses. the secondary sucks bc that’s how the team has been built … cry to your mama not me 

 

and i didn’t say the line got shredded i say the colts did implying good qbs & good offenses have their way w the colts defense and their “elite” D line. does that make sense to yu now 🤪

[Defjamz26]

The fact that they resigned everyone but Buckner is a little worrying to me. Seems like they may just let him walk in 2025. I understand he just turned 30 but he’s still got plenty left in the tank.

 

Draft will let us know for sure if that’s the plan. If we see a 3-tech taken in the first 3 rounds, I’d say the writing is on the wall.

[MFT5]

43 minutes ago, stitches said:

51 sacks is not representative of the strength of that DL. Sacks are very much luck dependent. A much more representative stat is the number(%) of pressures, hits, hurries and there we've been around the bottom of the league for years. This DL is not good at disrupting the passer. 

 

I posted a graph recently that encapsulated well the struggles of this DL... I'm trying to find it, but can't right now. Will come back to you if/when I find it. 

 

Edit: Here it is:

 

This defense doesn't blitz and it doesn't pressure the QB. It provides very limited disruption of the opposing QB. We pretty much allow them to drop back, scan the field and execute their offense. IMO this defense will never be great when the fundamentals of it's pass-disruption are this poor.

 

THANK YU BRAVO … ppl see numbers and act like other ppl aren’t watching the actual games play out…

 

how many random qbs kill the colts bc of the scheme, ALMOST weekly 😂😂 but 51 sacks right, right guys ?!? 😂 child please

[jvan1973]

24 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Davis is tall and also has 34 inch arms.  Go figure. 

 

With his college and NFL resume, it should put the Colts in even better position to stop TEN and Derrick Henry from running over us on the way to the AFC South Title.

 

Wait......

Derrick Henry doesn't play for the Titans anymore 

[RollerColt]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Derrick Henry doesn't play for the Titans anymore 

He was being sarcastic. 

[w87r]

9 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The fact that they resigned everyone but Buckner is a little worrying to me. Seems like they may just let him walk in 2025. I understand he just turned 30 but he’s still got plenty left in the tank.

 

Draft will let us know for sure if that’s the plan. If we see a 3-tech taken in the first 3 rounds, I’d say the writing is on the wall.

Then should probably look to move him if that's the case.

 

Something better than future comp pick

 

 

For the record, I would like a little 3yr extension for Buckner, saving about $10m in cap space this year 

 

[RollerColt]

1 minute ago, MFT5 said:

 

these are the same ppl that try to prove points and argue w yu and they don’t understand the simplicity of sarcasm 😂

 

you’re a genius 🤯

Ha, now you're the one being sarcastic. I'm far from a genius. 

 

It can be hard to read sarcasm online. I highly respect @jvan1973. Known them for years. Was just helping out. 

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The fact that they resigned everyone but Buckner is a little worrying to me. Seems like they may just let him walk in 2025. I understand he just turned 30 but he’s still got plenty left in the tank.

 

Draft will let us know for sure if that’s the plan. If we see a 3-tech taken in the first 3 rounds, I’d say the writing is on the wall.

 

Why didn't they give just a little extra and get Arik Armstead instead of Davis? Would have been able to play a little NT and UT. Re-unites him with Buckner and is a great fit too.

[csmopar]

11 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

It’s the samething every off-season.  People ignore how Ballard does things and expect him to sign all these big name free agents and when it doesn’t happen people get upset.  
 

I am not going to sit here and say Ballard’s approach is perfect but like I said yesterday, good, bad, or indifferent this is who Ballard is.  Fans would be better off if they accepted it.  For the record accepting is not the samething as agreeing with it.  It’s just accepting this is who he is going to be and acknowledging that when you develop expectations for how he will operate.  

This^ is probably the best post in this thread. Kudos

 

1 hour ago, Indeee said:

It's all subjective here. I have really good friends who are Phins fans and they told me Davis was meh. 

 

It really comes down to what you expect out of him and Davis is really nothing more than a space eater. To this, it just seemed like you could get this type of guy in the later draft rounds and use the 7 mil elsewhere. 

 

That's pretty much the gist of it

You’re acting like he paid 50 million a year for the guy. It’s barely 7 million. And can easily be covered by cutting Cox or restructuring one of half a dozen others. We have plenty of ways to sign more players if we want too. 

33 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Davis is tall and also has 34 inch arms.  Go figure. 

 

With his college and NFL resume, it should put the Colts in even better position to stop TEN and Derrick Henry from running over us on the way to the AFC South Title.

 

Wait......

King Henry plays for the Ravens now…

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

Why didn't they give just a little extra and get Arik Armstead instead of Davis? Would have been able to play a little NT and UT. Re-unites him with Buckner and is a great fit too.

Maybe we tried? Just cause we sign player X doesn’t mean we didn’t try or offer in anyone else. No GM is ever gonna say player X was our second or third or fourth choice 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Armstead I believe won’t be released until today.

[csmopar]

16 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The fact that they resigned everyone but Buckner is a little worrying to me. Seems like they may just let him walk in 2025. I understand he just turned 30 but he’s still got plenty left in the tank.

 

Draft will let us know for sure if that’s the plan. If we see a 3-tech taken in the first 3 rounds, I’d say the writing is on the wall.

We have plenty of time for Buckers new deal. He will be back 

[chad72]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Maybe we tried? Just cause we sign player X doesn’t mean we didn’t try or offer in anyone else. No GM is ever gonna say player X was our second or third or fourth choice 

 

Sometimes, you might hear it from his agent (Armstead's) like we heard the Chiefs were in talks to get Diontae Johnson but the Steelers preferred to trade him outside the conference:

 

https://steelersnow.com/report-chiefs-were-in-talks-with-steelers-to-trade-for-diontae-johnson/

 

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Maybe we tried? Just cause we sign player X doesn’t mean we didn’t try or offer in anyone else. No GM is ever gonna say player X was our second or third or fourth choice 

I don't buy the "maybe we tried" reason anymore. Reason being is that Ballard has done this same song and dance for 8 years. He generally doesn't go after guys early. Same with Brandon Jones two days ago when you responded to me. Ballard generally isn't going after everyone and failing early in FA. He's just letting them sign with other teams because we're re-signing our own. Plus, you rarely hear later on that the Colts ever had interest in top FAs. Hunter was an exception yesterday, but that's a rarity.

[csmopar]

Just now, chad72 said:

 

Sometimes, you might hear it from his agent (Armstead's) like we heard the Chiefs were in talks to get Diontae Johnson but the Steelers preferred to trade him outside the conference:

 

https://steelersnow.com/report-chiefs-were-in-talks-with-steelers-to-trade-for-diontae-johnson/

 

This time of year there is all sorts of information and misinformation being put out there . Truth is we will never know for sure. 

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, Yoshinator said:

I don't buy the "maybe we tried" reason anymore. Reason being is that Ballard has done this same song and dance for 8 years. He generally doesn't go after guys early. Same with Brandon Jones two days ago when you responded to me. Ballard generally isn't going after everyone and failing early in FA. He's just letting them sign with other teams because we're re-signing our own. Plus, you rarely hear later on that the Colts ever had interest in top FAs. Hunter was an exception yesterday, but that's a rarity.

That’s entirely possible in fact plausible. I’m just saying we won’t ever know. 

[ColtStrong2013]

3 minutes ago, Yoshinator said:

I don't buy the "maybe we tried" reason anymore. Reason being is that Ballard has done this same song and dance for 8 years. He generally doesn't go after guys early. Same with Brandon Jones two days ago when you responded to me. Ballard generally isn't going after everyone and failing early in FA. He's just letting them sign with other teams because we're re-signing our own. Plus, you rarely hear later on that the Colts ever had interest in top FAs. Hunter was an exception yesterday, but that's a rarity.

I wonder if we were actually interested in Hunter, or more interested in driving his price up knowing Houston was after him… 

[John Hammonds]

20 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The fact that they resigned everyone but Buckner is a little worrying to me. Seems like they may just let him walk in 2025. I understand he just turned 30 but he’s still got plenty left in the tank.

 

Draft will let us know for sure if that’s the plan. If we see a 3-tech taken in the first 3 rounds, I’d say the writing is on the wall.

I'm not surprised.  He'll be 31 in 2025.  And his performance has already plateaued.  It's still great, to be sure.  But it doesn't get any better than this, and he may be starting on his downward trajectory next year.  We don't know what he'd be truly worth to us.  Nor how long an extension we should offer.  Nor what his market value would be to other teams.  Naaaa, I'm not surprised at all.

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

I wonder if we were actually interested in Hunter, or more interested in driving his price up knowing Houston was after him… 

Actually reports have stated he took a little bit less than he asked for to come home to Houston. 

 

https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethesports/vikings/minnesota-vikings-free-agency-tracker-day-2-reports-rumors-live-updates#:~:text="He actually took less to,to agree to the terms.