AR out with concussion

[Aussie1232]

I mean the concussion is not ideal

 

But I think it shows a huge amount of self awareness and maturity by him to understand that he wasn't ok and to self report it.

 

That is the kind of leadership that I am proud the colts have drafted.

 

If he misses a game or two so be it I want the guy playing for the next 15 years not out after 2-3

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 hours ago, adubb84 said:

I understand everyone’s concern about his concussion, rightfully so. However I think there may be a bit of an overreaction about his durability and longevity.

 

First game, he didn’t protect himself and paid for it. Second game learned his lesson as he was making calculated risks and was ok until he underestimated how fast the defender was coming.  
 

Josh Allan yesterday unnecessarily leaped towards the end zone into two defenders to try and get a touchdown. THAT to me is reckless. It’s honestly his forte and he does that that stuff often. Cam would go out seeking contact trying to run over people. I don’t see that yet from him. Honest mistake.

Let’s see how the rest of the season plays out before categorizing his trajectory as why running QB’s don’t last. 

Good post. I think the overreaction in here that he may not be durable or have a short career is way too soon. I could overreact to Stroud getting sacked 6 times and say he won't last if he keeps taking those hits every week. He looked like David Carr running around out there. He wasn't injured but it is a matter time if he keeps getting sacked like that every week.

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 hours ago, PRnum1 said:

I thought it was similar to the Tua concussion.  Falling backwards and back of the head hitting the turf hard.

After the injuries, Tua looked woozy, I didn't even realize AR was even injured.

[1959Colts]

Gregg Doyel has now written two scathing concussion articles, over the past two days, in the IndyStar.

I would think, the Colts are going to be very careful, to err on the side of caution, and not chance players coming back early.

He mentions, in today's piece, that this is Ryan Kelly's 3rd concussion.

[Solid84]

18 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

Gregg Doyel has now written two scathing concussion articles, over the past two days, in the IndyStar.

I would think, the Colts are going to be very careful, to err on the side of caution, and not chance players coming back early.

He mentions, in today's piece, that this is Ryan Kelly's 3rd concussion.

AR, Kelly and Ogletree need to play with the “bubble wrap” on the helmet they use during training. Safety first!

 

[GoColts8818]

32 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

Gregg Doyel has now written two scathing concussion articles, over the past two days, in the IndyStar.

I would think, the Colts are going to be very careful, to err on the side of caution, and not chance players coming back early.

He mentions, in today's piece, that this is Ryan Kelly's 3rd concussion.

And that’s the problem with concussions.  The more you get the more you are likely to have another one.  That’s why you never want someone like your rookie QB to get one, especially in his second game.

[2006Coltsbestever]

35 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

Gregg Doyel has now written two scathing concussion articles, over the past two days, in the IndyStar.

I would think, the Colts are going to be very careful, to err on the side of caution, and not chance players coming back early.

He mentions, in today's piece, that this is Ryan Kelly's 3rd concussion.

Gregg Doyel 

[Myles]

5 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

And that’s the problem with concussions.  The more you get the more you are likely to have another one.  That’s why you never want someone like your rookie QB to get one, especially in his second game.

He's averaging a concussion every 2 games.  That is not good.  

[CR91]

Imo AR shouldn't have slowed down. Finish the play. I think he mentioned to Pitt though that he didn't see the defender. Now do I think it's a cheap shot? Kinda. AR was getting into the end zone. There was nothing he could do, but I understand taking a shot when you can because hits add up.

[Superman]

6 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

And that’s the problem with concussions.  The more you get the more you are likely to have another one.  That’s why you never want someone like your rookie QB to get one, especially in his second game.

 

Is there any conclusive evidence that this is true? I feel like this was debunked a while back...

[GoColts8818]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Is there any conclusive evidence that this is true? I feel like this was debunked a while back...

Yes

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735746/#:~:text=Also%2C it is now known,and take longer to resolve.

 

https://reverehealth.com/live-better/second-impact-syndrome-dangerous-effect-multiple-concussions/

[Superman]

Doing some thrill reading through the NFL concussion policy. Richardson's initial symptom could have been something as simple as reporting a headache. If he began to exhibit worsening symptom(s), then it would make sense that he'd be ruled out for the game.

 

But it's possible for a player to progress through the first three steps of the protocol even before the team starts practicing on Wednesday. 

 

Quote

The player-patient must remain at his pre-concussion baseline level of signs and symptoms during the exertion itself, as well as for a reasonable period of time afterward. What constitutes a reasonable amount of time shall be determined on a case-by-case basis by the Club physician. Depending on the severity of the concussion and the time required for return to baseline, the progression through the steps may be accelerated. Communication between the Club medical staff and the player-patient is essential to determining the progression through the Phases of the protocol. Neurocognitive testing is administered to assess the player-patient’s level of cognitive function and identify any acute/subacute deficits that would affect his ability to resume normal activities. Neurocognitive testing can be introduced any time after completing Phase Two (see below) and prior to the initiation of contact activities. Otherwise, the specific timing of neurocognitive testing is up to the Club physician with consultation from the Club’s NPC.

 

After that, the question is whether the player handles non-contact practice and then full practice without recurrence of symptoms, and can clear all the baseline neuro tests. 

 

So, if we presume that Richardson had mild symptoms during the game -- like a headache, maybe progressing to some nausea or light sensitivity -- but felt better by the end of the day, then it's very possible that he could be cleared by the end of the week. 

 

As a disclaimer, I don't know what his symptoms were, or how they progressed, or how he felt when he was tested. I don't know whether he'll clear by the end of the week. Just pointing out that we don't have to assume that he would be in danger if he came back right away. 

[Superman]

31 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Yes

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735746/#:~:text=Also%2C it is now known,and take longer to resolve.

 

https://reverehealth.com/live-better/second-impact-syndrome-dangerous-effect-multiple-concussions/

 

From your second link:

Quote

 

What is Second Impact Syndrome?

Second impact syndrome (SIS) occurs when two concussions happen in a relatively short period of time and the second concussion is inflicted before the first has fully healed. 

 

 

I'm not questioning any of that. 

 

Debunked is probably the wrong word. It's clear that a person who has not fully recovered from a concussion is at greater risk of suffering another concussion. 

 

But there also seems to be a belief that a person who has suffered a concussion is now at greater risk of suffering another concussion, into perpetuity, even after that person has fully recovered. And I don't know that there's evidence supporting that belief.

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

From your second link:

 

I'm not questioning any of that. 

 

Debunked is probably the wrong word. It's clear that a person who has not fully recovered from a concussion is at greater risk of suffering another concussion. 

 

But there also seems to be a belief that a person who has suffered a concussion is now at greater risk of suffering another concussion, into perpetuity, even after that person has fully recovered. And I don't know that there's evidence supporting that belief.

The first article clearly states that once you’ve had once concision your odds of a second one are 1 to 2 times higher.  If you have a second one the odds of a third are 3 or 4 times higher.  
 

Yes if you don’t let it heal fully it’s even higher which is why the Tau situation was so bad last year.  
 

I will admit 1 to 2 higher isn’t the end of the world but still concussions are an injury that can and do tend to compound.  I heard one doctor say it’s like you have a seal around your brain and once you break it with one concussion it’s always damaged even after the injury heals if that makes sense.

[Superman]

17 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

The first article clearly states that once you’ve had once concision your odds of a second one are 1 to 2 times higher.  If you have a second one the odds of a third are 3 or 4 times higher.  

 

It actually says 3.0 times higher.

 

I read the results and conclusion on that study. It's from 2003, before concussion protocols were really a thing. They followed a group of collegiate athletes, and documented the concussions they suffered. I'm not a researcher or anything, but the methodology does not seem rigorous. And the sample size of players who suffered a second concussion seems too small, and out of context, to draw this conclusion. Not to mention that with today's protocols, you'd have more concussions reported from both groups, and that '3.0 times higher' figure would probably look different.

 

But yeah, that study gives that indication.

 

Quote

Yes if you don’t let it heal fully it’s even higher which is why the Tau situation was so bad last year.  

The Tua situation is really weird. I don't like the Internet doctor thing, when everyone decides what the facts were and ignores what the doctors said. That said, even though the doctors said he didn't suffer a concussion the first time, it sure did seem like he was concussed.

 

On topic, if the Colts want to err on the side of caution, that's totally fine. But Ogletree was obviously disoriented, and he cleared protocol in a week. Steichen said he was a healthy scratch, maybe his status played a factor, IDK. But I wouldn't be shocked if Richardson clears protocol this week, and plays Sunday.

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It actually says 3.0 times higher.

 

I read the results and conclusion on that study. It's from 2003, before concussion protocols were really a thing. They followed a group of collegiate athletes, and documented the concussions they suffered. I'm not a researcher or anything, but the methodology does not seem rigorous. And the sample size of players who suffered a second concussion seems too small, and out of context, to draw this conclusion. Not to mention that with today's protocols, you'd have more concussions reported from both groups, and that '3.0 times higher' figure would probably look different.

 

But yeah, that study gives that indication.

 

The Tua situation is really weird. I don't like the Internet doctor thing, when everyone decides what the facts were and ignores what the doctors said. That said, even though the doctors said he didn't suffer a concussion the first time, it sure did seem like he was concussed.

 

On topic, if the Colts want to err on the side of caution, that's totally fine. But Ogletree was obviously disoriented, and he cleared protocol in a week. Steichen said he was a healthy scratch, maybe his status played a factor, IDK. But I wouldn't be shocked if Richardson clears protocol this week, and plays Sunday.

Oh yeah I am not saying there is no way Richardson can’t play because of this.  I agree if he clears I think he plays same with Kelly.  Like Ive said since sunday the good news is it sounds like it’s a mild one.  With that said I am not a doctor and clearly haven’t been around Richardson but a mild one would be much better for several obvious reasons.  I am just saying him getting one in his second game is concerning because unlike a broken arm or something concussions tend to build on each other.  Still once he’s deemed clear to play yeah he should play, I mean what’s the alternative don’t play him?  That’s the same result as him not playing like he was hurt anyways.  
 

I mean the bottom line because of the type of QB Richardson is he’s going to be exposed to more potential injuries.  I 100% think him and the Colts have to do everything to teach him to protect himself but that will only go so far.  You can’t tell him to stop running completely because that takes away one of the biggest reasons he went number four overall.  I also agree part of that learning process is going to be him taking hits to find out where the line is.  I just hope he doesn’t get beat up too much in the process.  I will agree to something JMV said today, one of the big differences between Richardson and Luck is that Luck was wreck less where as Richardson is running by design.  
 

I also think as long as the Colts have Richardson they do need to invest in a high end back up like Minshew just in case they end up in situations like they were in Sunday.  

[Superman]

43 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

 I also agree part of that learning process is going to be him taking hits to find out where the line is.

 

Agreed. And I think he's learned a lot about where that line is already. I hope...

 

43 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

one of the big differences between Richardson and Luck is that Luck was wreck less where as Richardson is running by design. 

 

A lot of the fanbase is shell shocked from the Luck experience, and I'm trying to avoid that kind of overreaction. But Richardson throwing himself around at the end of the Jags game definitely reminded me of early Luck. It's really kind of a miracle that it took him 3+ seasons before he missed a game. Unlike Luck, Richardson is getting rid of the ball or getting out of the pocket, and the scheme is much better. But it's definitely going to be up to him to figure out how to avoid some of the hits he's taken so far.

 

And agreed on the backup.

[GoColts8818]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed. And I think he's learned a lot about where that line is already. I hope...

 

 

A lot of the fanbase is shell shocked from the Luck experience, and I'm trying to avoid that kind of overreaction. But Richardson throwing himself around at the end of the Jags game definitely reminded me of early Luck. It's really kind of a miracle that it took him 3+ seasons before he missed a game. Unlike Luck, Richardson is getting rid of the ball or getting out of the pocket, and the scheme is much better. But it's definitely going to be up to him to figure out how to avoid some of the hits he's taken so far.

 

And agreed on the backup.

Yeah the end of the Jags crossed the line into wreck less to me which I why I think Shane kept him out after he had to come out which is smart.

[Trace Pyott]

Man with all this worry about qb injuries and the whole luck saga, can you guys believe how lucky and spoiled we were by having a unicorn like manning play so many consecutive games without injury??   I only speak for myself,  but I totally didn’t appreciate how fortunate we were until seeing how easy it is for a qb to get hurt, even if they are just a drop back passer and never run. 

[GoColts8818]

10 minutes ago, Trace Pyott said:

Man with all this worry about qb injuries and the whole luck saga, can you guys believe how lucky and spoiled we were by having a unicorn like manning play so many consecutive games without injury??   I only speak for myself,  but I totally didn’t appreciate how fortunate we were until seeing how easy it is for a qb to get hurt, even if they are just a drop back passer and never run. 

There needs to be a lot of credit given to his extremely underrated line of Diem, Lilja, Saturday, Scott, and Glenn.  

[chrisfarley]

1) Train the players (AR) to have their head on a swivel, if there is impending doom, get out of bounds NOW, live to run another play and this time hand the ball off to a running back at the 1 yard line for what is probably a sure TD within 3 plays. Swallow your pride.

2) Develop something for field-rebound-helmet-bounce-back positioned on the rear of the helmet (for lack of a better description).  Let's gel-pad the "FRHBB"  

3) Do away with old style field-turf (slit film turf) and start forcing stadiums to deploy much safer fields for "FRHBB" 

 (I fully realize that below refers to injuries not necessarily pertaining to head injuries)

4) Indy is one of six stadiums with the old dangerous stuff.  

Slit film turf is currently used in six stadiums: MetLife Stadium (New York Giants and New York Jets), Ford Field (Detroit Lions), U.S. Bank Stadium (Minnesota Vikings), Caesars Superdome (New Orleans Saints), Lucas Oil Stadium (Indianapolis Colts) and Paycor Stadium (Cincinnati Bengals).

In his letter, NFLPA president JC Tretter noted that games played on slit film turf have higher in-game injury rates compared to other playing surfaces. Non-contact injuries and foot and ankle injuries are among the injuries that statistically occur more on slit film turf, according to Tretter. 

"The NFL and its experts have agreed with this data and acknowledge that the slit film field is less safe," Tretter wrote. "Player leadership wrote a letter to the NFL this week demanding the immediate removal of these fields and a ban on them going forward, both in stadiums and for practice fields. The NFL has not only refused to mandate this change immediately, but they have also refused to commit to mandating a change away from slit film in the future at all."

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Steichen said Kelly and Richardson will not practice today. That probably ruled them out for Sunday.

[Superman]

29 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Steichen said Kelly and Richardson will not practice today. That probably ruled them out for Sunday.

 

Not necessarily. Ogletree didn't practice last Wednesday.

[csmopar]

51 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Steichen said Kelly and Richardson will not practice today. That probably ruled them out for Sunday.

Yee haw

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Steichen said Kelly and Richardson will not practice today. That probably ruled them out for Sunday.

Tomorrow is the key day, if AR doesn't practice tomorrow, than the likely hood he won't play goes way up. Not practicing today really doesn't tell me much.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Personally I hope they sit him even if he clears. Don’t want this to turn into a TUA situation. French will have his hands full if Richardson plays and Kelly doesn’t. Just for record Kelly missed 5 games with a concussion a couple years ago.

[azcolt]

19 hours ago, Superman said:

But there also seems to be a belief that a person who has suffered a concussion is now at greater risk of suffering another concussion, into perpetuity, even after that person has fully recovered. And I don't know that there's evidence supporting that belief.

For those of us older than dirt, we can probably remember several lifetime “events” that weren’t ever diagnosed since we weren’t knocked out — and being knocked out used to be the point concussions were diagnosed. If you played football or other sports and got your bell rung, you were given smelling salts and a brief rest. But even non-sports injuries like falling on your head a dozen times as a kid would probably now be considered at least minor concussions. So am I now as an old fart more likely to suffer a concussion than I was before I had any concussions (and I did have one bad one treated at the ER)? I doubt it. But the science is obviously evolving quickly concerning even “mild” concussions, so I now question all of my previous knowledge on the subject. For example, CTE was unheard of until the recent past, so obviously we need to be open minded as the research continues.

 

A good place for people to develop more knowledge of the possible consequences of failing to let a concussion heal  is to Google Second Impact Syndrome.

[sb41champs]

It is my humble opinion that the concussion occurred when he hit the back of his head on the turf - rather than during the tackle.

 

Praying for both AR & Ryan Kelly!!

[4daUColts]

Hes got great talent as a runner, but he definately needs to learn how to use it properly. Id never take a hit unless it was 3rd down. Plus most cb's would obliterate me. Blown up, blood and body parts everywhere kinda way.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:45 PM, Superman said:

Doing some thrill reading through the NFL concussion policy. Richardson's initial symptom could have been something as simple as reporting a headache. If he began to exhibit worsening symptom(s), then it would make sense that he'd be ruled out for the game.

 

But it's possible for a player to progress through the first three steps of the protocol even before the team starts practicing on Wednesday. 

 

 

After that, the question is whether the player handles non-contact practice and then full practice without recurrence of symptoms, and can clear all the baseline neuro tests. 

 

So, if we presume that Richardson had mild symptoms during the game -- like a headache, maybe progressing to some nausea or light sensitivity -- but felt better by the end of the day, then it's very possible that he could be cleared by the end of the week. 

 

As a disclaimer, I don't know what his symptoms were, or how they progressed, or how he felt when he was tested. I don't know whether he'll clear by the end of the week. Just pointing out that we don't have to assume that he would be in danger if he came back right away. 

This was my dumb question last night. A QB always  have a non contact practice because they wear the red jersey.  

[PRnum1]

I think AR has to clear concussion protocol to play

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

14 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

I think AR has to clear concussion protocol to play

Yes he does. I think the question is would they sit him even if he clears. 

[GoColts8818]

I think the bigger issue could be the missed practices.  Not from a health standpoint.  Richardson isn’t some seasoned vet that doesn’t need to practice to play.  Also, the Colts have to put a game plan in and a game plan for Minshew vs Richardson will be very different.  So if they don’t know if he will be cleared the missed practices could make the decision for them.

[EasyE]

On 9/17/2023 at 4:26 PM, GoColts8818 said:

Has to learn to protect himself.  He does the Colts no good if he can’t finish games.  Two games two games he’s failed to finish due to injury.  That is very bad.  This also isn’t Andrew Luck where the line isn’t protecting him this is 100% on him.  
 

I’ll say the Colts would be wise to extend Minshew because I think as long as Richardson is the QB you are going to need a high end back up like Minshew.

Sad too say it, but you are right on! I want more passing plays called and Richardson is not to run unless absolutely has too. His arm strength is just elite, his mechanics and accuracy needs worked on. Some can fix it, some can't. I hope AR is good and gets better.

[Chucklez]

10 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

I think the bigger issue could be the missed practices.  Not from a health standpoint.  Richardson isn’t some seasoned vet that doesn’t need to practice to play.  Also, the Colts have to put a game plan in and a game plan for Minshew vs Richardson will be very different.  So if they don’t know if he will be cleared the missed practices could make the decision for them.

I think this is it. Prepare yourselves for Minshew vs the Ravens this week, even if AR clears protocol before game day. 

They cant prepare the game plan all week for Richardson if Minshew is gonna start, and they cant just throw Richardson into the mix after he has cleared protocol against this Ravens D (or any NFL D for the time being). It wouldnt be fair on Richardson, nor really help his development all that much.

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, Chucklez said:

I think this is it. Prepare yourselves for Minshew vs the Ravens this week, even if AR clears protocol before game day. 

They cant prepare the game plan all week for Richardson if Minshew is gonna start, and they cant just throw Richardson into the mix after he has cleared protocol against this Ravens D (or any NFL D for the time being). It wouldnt be fair on Richardson, nor really help his development all that much.

I do think if Richardson clears you could see him sprinkled in for some plays and if he doesn’t clear then Shane just doesn’t call those plays.  That’s probably doable.

[Superman]

He's not practicing today. Starting to look like he won't be cleared this week, and even if he is, he might have missed all the practices, in which I think he wouldn't play Sunday.

[Solid84]

16 minutes ago, Superman said:

He's not practicing today. Starting to look like he won't be cleared this week, and even if he is, he might have missed all the practices, in which I think he wouldn't play Sunday.

[Indyfan4life]

 

[sb41champs]

22 hours ago, 4daUColts said:

Hes got great talent as a runner, but he definately needs to learn how to use it properly. Id never take a hit unless it was 3rd down. Plus most cb's would obliterate me. Blown up, blood and body parts everywhere kinda way.

It wasn't "the hit" that caused the concussion - it was the "whiplashed" way he hit the turf.