AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

We are all dreaming if we felt Texans were going to give us that pick. Bears at #1 was our best shot. Maybe we just give up a future 1st and our current 2nd and might have gotten him. But everyone was saying there was no consensus clear cut franchise QB in this draft head and shoulders above the rest. So when Ballard didn't trade up, it was a reflection of that too. Just that we can't play hindsight 20/20 when the actions were consistent with QB evaluations, across teams. Panthers were just cornered into a spot because of picking later, IMO.

 

The Texans moved back up to #3 to take Anderson. If they had taken Levis or anyone else at #2, and Stroud was still there at #3, we could have traded up with the Cardinals. I think a draft video shows Ballard having a phone conversation about moving up. And I'm on the record entertaining a move for Stroud prior to the draft.

 

But as it turns out, moving up for Stroud wasn't an option on draft day, because the Texans took him at #2, and like you said, they would never give us that pick. With the benefit of hindsight, we now know that we would have had to make a deal with the Bears. And I definitely would not have been on board with that.

 

Also, it's obvious the Colts had their sights set on Richardson all along. For as good as Stroud has been, there's a reason the Colts wanted Richardson, and hopefully we'll see more of that next year.

[Myles]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:22 PM, jvan1973 said:

Andy Reid, Sean Mcvay, Kyle Shanahan and Doug Pederson all call plays

Some can handle it.  Reich cannot.   Many times he said he didn't know what was happening in the game.  i think that was because he was tunnel-vision focused on the play calling.

[jvan1973]

22 minutes ago, Myles said:

Some can handle it.  Reich cannot.   Many times he said he didn't know what was happening in the game.  i think that was because he was tunnel-vision focused on the play calling.

You are basing that on absolutely nothing.   Do you really think Andy Reid knows absolutely everything that's happening on that sideline?   No head coach does.   That's why they have many coaches.   Frank is a good football coach,  that's not up for debate.  Is he a great football coach,  I guess we will see.   Peyton Manning thinks he is. His one time underling Siranni thinks he is.   Frank with good qb play was fine.   Show me another coach that succeeded with a crappy qb.  Look at Belichick now. 

[Nickster]

9 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

You are basing that on absolutely nothing.   Do you really think Andy Reid knows absolutely everything that's happening on that sideline?   No head coach does.   That's why they have many coaches.   Frank is a good football coach,  that's not up for debate.  Is he a great football coach,  I guess we will see.   Peyton Manning thinks he is. His one time underling Siranni thinks he is.   Frank with good qb play was fine.   Show me another coach that succeeded with a crappy qb.  Look at Belichick now. 

Hey we agree on something.  I think Frank was a decent coach for us .

 

And I could t agree more about BB.  The genius bloom is a bit of the rose.  His record pre and post Tawmy ain’t good.

[Dingus McGirt]

21 hours ago, DougDew said:

Good Lord.  I know you read stuff hoping to pounce with an eager trigger, but please clearly read what I write before you go off.

 

I said IF the play calling improves and the CAR offense improves THEN its a bad look for Ballard for not seeing what many here saw.  I have no idea why you introduce supporting a coach or who traded up.  My post is about the play calling switch fixing a real problem.  If it actually does.

 

We'll see what happens.  That means the future.   The bolded ignores that important part of my post.....talk about agenda.

 

 

A bad look for Ballard?  The head coach (Reich) insisted on calling the offense.  It's a lot more complex than the GM just calling in him and ordering him to give up that responsibility - without causing a huge issue (which Ballard - and Irsay? probably wanted to avoid).  For an ego-driven business - like being a head coach - likely the only way for that change to occur would be to let him (a head coach) come to that decision himself.  He didn't do that here - and he is gone.  It has taken until almost mid-season for the change to happen in Carolina - and it may well be too late for that franchise in 2023.  Time will tell.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Dingus McGirt said:

A bad look for Ballard?  The head coach (Reich) insisted on calling the offense.  It's a lot more complex than the GM just calling in him and ordering him to give up that responsibility - without causing a huge issue (which Ballard - and Irsay? probably wanted to avoid).  For an ego-driven business - like being a head coach - likely the only way for that change to occur would be to let him (a head coach) come to that decision himself.  He didn't do that here - and he is gone.  It has taken until almost mid-season for the change to happen in Carolina - and it may well be too late for that franchise in 2023.  Time will tell.

If changing the play caller works, then whatever the culture/dynamics are at CAR makes whatever culture/dynamics that existed with the Colts over the past several years look bad.  I used Ballard as a symbol of the FO, but it could be Irsay too, or whomever has the authority to change play callers away from the HC....it has to be someone above the HC.

 

If it works, then CAR is getting it right and the Colts got it wrong for years.

 

I assume the Frank haters, on its surface, would love to see the new play caller at CAR succeed, but they may refuse to then acknowledge that CAR only took 6 games to recognize and fix the problem, compared to the Ballard/Irsay FO that never apparently recognized it or had the fortitude to do it.  Chew on that irony.

[Dingus McGirt]

28 minutes ago, DougDew said:

If changing the play caller works, then whatever the culture/dynamics are at CAR makes whatever culture/dynamics that existed with the Colts over the past several years look bad.  I used Ballard as a symbol of the FO, but it could be Irsay too, or whomever has the authority to change play callers away from the HC....it has to be someone above the HC.

 

If it works, then CAR is getting it right and the Colts got it wrong for years.

 

I assume the Frank haters, on its surface, would love to see the new play caller at CAR succeed, but they may refuse to then acknowledge that CAR only took 6 games to recognize and fix the problem, compared to the Ballard/Irsay FO that never apparently recognized it or had the fortitude to do it.  Chew on that irony.

I don’t much care about the situation in Carolina (except as it impacts the game next Sunday).  My entire point is/was that Reich finally had to agree to the change to avoid a big clash.

[DougDew]

13 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

I don’t much care about the situation in Carolina (except as it impacts the game next Sunday).  My entire point is/was that Reich finally had to agree to the change to avoid a big clash.

I agree.  My point stated way upstream was that it was a clash that was delayed for a very long time here in IND.  In fact, the specific clash of changing play calling never occurred.  The entire team had to deteriorate into dysfunction before the matter of "Frank" was even addressed.  Then it seemingly had to be addressed by Irsay, if statements are true.

 

But if CAR still stinks it up, none of this irony emerges.

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I assume the Frank haters, on its surface, would love to see the new play caller at CAR succeed, but they may refuse to then acknowledge that CAR only took 6 games to recognize and fix the problem, compared to the Ballard/Irsay FO that never apparently recognized it or had the fortitude to do it.  Chew on that irony

I'm curious to see what happens. Generally, historically speaking, when a change at playcaller happens mid-season, there seems to be immediate success followed by a steady decline afterwards. You probably know me long enough to know that I like(d) Frank Reich and thought he was a decent coach. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina wins this weekend, but in the end continues to struggle for the duration of the season longterm. And it might not even be all about Reich. The Panthers are lacking in talent. Ironically they could use Moore right about now as a security blanket for Young... 

 

I have no way of proving this, but here's my harebrained speculation: Ballard grew to be very close friends with Reich over the years, and wanted to remain patient. Perhaps he was planning to let Frank go gracefully at the end of the season. And little by little, from the tie with the Texans to whatever was witnessed in Denver... to the blowout loss against New England Jim Irsay grew frustrated enough to step in. 

 

My guess would be Irsay had a long talk with Chris to wake him up that a change was needed and things just weren't working out. The more I think about what happened last year, the more bizarre it becomes. Especially considered it seems that Ballard has been given one final chance with Steichen and Richardson to right the ship. 

 

I still think Frank should have probably waited before just jumping in to another difficult coaching situation. But... then again there's only 32 of these jobs out there... 

[DougDew]

29 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

I'm curious to see what happens. Generally, historically speaking, when a change at playcaller happens mid-season, there seems to be immediate success followed by a steady decline afterwards. You probably know me long enough to know that I like(d) Frank Reich and thought he was a decent coach. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina wins this weekend, but in the end continues to struggle for the duration of the season longterm. And it might not even be all about Reich. The Panthers are lacking in talent. Ironically they could use Moore right about now as a security blanket for Young... 

I agree.  There will probably be a burst from the change.  Some of that due to defenses not having tape on the situational play calling.  We have to see how the change is sustained over weeks.

 

What I've seen from the CAR games I've watched, the defenses are sitting on the WR routes and stacking the run box eerily similar to what they did with the Colts under Frank.  However, like the Colts, CAR has terrible playmakers at the boundary positions.  So which is it, Frank and his routes/plays, or a talent issue? 

 

Perhaps the new play caller will see things that works for them.

[Colt.45]

Make of this what you will.

*AR5 is the truth

 

 

 

 

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I agree.  There will probably be a burst from the change.  Some of that due to defenses not having tape on the situational play calling.  We have to see how the change is sustained over weeks.

 

What I've seen from the CAR games I've watched, the defenses are sitting on the WR routes and stacking the run box eerily similar to what they did with the Colts under Frank.  However, like the Colts, CAR has terrible playmakers at the boundary positions.  So which is it, Frank and his routes/plays, or a talent issue? 

 

Perhaps the new play caller will see things that works for them.

I hope for the best with Frank and Carolina. Their fans, like many others, have waited long enough to win a Super Bowl. 

[Superman]

15 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

You are basing that on absolutely nothing.

 

I think it can be based on the multiple times this season Reich has admitted that he didn't know which players were in the game. He called a play for Adam Thielen, who wasn't on the field.

 

Reasonable people can disagree, but saying Reich struggles with overall game management while serving as the primary play caller is backed up by recent examples.

 

Quote

Do you really think Andy Reid knows absolutely everything that's happening on that sideline?

 

He's much better now, but Andy Reid was one of the more frustrating game managers at HC for a long time. Poor clock management, questionable timeouts, bad challenges, etc. It's hard to say whether those things were based in philosophy or if they were about divided attention, but he's not a great example of a HC thriving as the primary play caller. (And I'd say similar things about McVay; great play caller, not a great game manager, but his play calling makes up for it.)

 

You need a great game day system and excellent communication, for sure. I think Reich had that through 2020, but Sirianni leaving (along with some other coaches) was a significant blow.

[Solid84]

3 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Make of this what you will.

*AR5 is the truth

 

 

 

 

I won't say AR is the QB we've been looking for, but for a young guy with minimal game experience he does an impressive amount of things right.

 

He does some things wrong too, but he has a lot of room to grow. His future is bright I think.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Make of this what you will.

*AR5 is the truth

 

 

 

 

 

This is almost brain breaking for me. Two reasons. 

 

First, why was Richardson facing "perfect coverage" so often? Is it about the opposition, was it a play calling thing, were we tipping something before the snap? That's a weird stat, and the fact that Minshew's split is less stands out to me; however, it's still higher than average, so it makes me think it's systemic. It's encouraging that Richardson was managing such a high EPA vs that kind of coverage, with so little experience, and a below average completion percentage.

 

Second, what the heck are the Niners doing over there? Shanahan is playing a different game than everyone else. Purdy deserves some credit, he makes some really nice throws to the second level. But look how easy they're making it for him... Wow.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

I won't say AR is the QB we've been looking for, but for a young guy with minimal game experience he does an impressive amount of things right.

 

He does some things wrong too, but he has a lot of room to grow. His future is bright I think.

It sucks really because to me by my test, he was playing good football overall. Not turning it over, making key throws in tight windows, and had 4 Rushing TD's. 

[Fluke_33]

On 10/25/2023 at 6:49 PM, PRnum1 said:

Should Ballard have traded up 2 spots for Stroud?

 

What do you all think?

at what cost?  moving from 4 to 2 is very expensive.

[Fluke_33]

On 10/26/2023 at 10:47 AM, Colt.45 said:

If both players reach their ceiling, I prefer AR by some margin.

 

same.  i like both but I do like AR more and said so prior to the draft but i am admittedly a homer when it comes to our players.

[Colt.45]

Just now, Solid84 said:

I won't say AR is the QB we've been looking for, but for a young guy with minimal game experience he does an impressive amount of things right.

 

He does some things wrong too, but he has a lot of room to grow. His future is bright I think.

If you asked me at the end of last season, and after the college playoffs, I would have said I preferred Stroud to any QB in the draft and that'd have been the QB I'd have said we should look for.

Then I started watching some tape. 

 

I'd already had AR in mind after this game and this particular play.

This was comical. This reminded me of when Andrew Luck hit Shareece Rice in his sophomore year. That was my "pay special attention to this guy" moment. For AR, this was it. I am still unsure if i've seen this kind of ability displayed by a QB before. I might be biased.

 

He's in the right hands, as long as he stays humble, i see greatness.

[Colt.45]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is almost brain breaking for me. Two reasons. 

 

First, why was Richardson facing "perfect coverage" so often? Is it about the opposition, was it a play calling thing, were we tipping something before the snap? That's a weird stat, and the fact that Minshew's split is less stands out to me; however, it's still higher than average, so it makes me think it's systemic. It's encouraging that Richardson was managing such a high EPA vs that kind of coverage, with so little experience, and a below average completion percentage.

 

Second, what the heck are the Niners doing over there? Shanahan is playing a different game than everyone else. Purdy deserves some credit, he makes some really nice throws to the second level. But look how easy they're making it for him... Wow.

 

 

Yeah, I've been looking at where Purdy is for the last 15mins trying to figure out exactly what/how that's even possible. 

[stitches]

19 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is almost brain breaking for me. Two reasons. 

 

First, why was Richardson facing "perfect coverage" so often? Is it about the opposition, was it a play calling thing, were we tipping something before the snap? That's a weird stat, and the fact that Minshew's split is less stands out to me; however, it's still higher than average, so it makes me think it's systemic. It's encouraging that Richardson was managing such a high EPA vs that kind of coverage, with so little experience, and a below average completion percentage.

 

Second, what the heck are the Niners doing over there? Shanahan is playing a different game than everyone else. Purdy deserves some credit, he makes some really nice throws to the second level. But look how easy they're making it for him... Wow.

I spent good 10 second looking for Brock Purdy on the graph once I read your post. And... wow! This really does seem like they are playing a different game.  

 

On the Colts/Richardson part. IMO it's probably a mix of a lot of all of the above... a bit of the playcalling, a bit of the nature of Richardson as a rookie QB, a bit of our weapons generally not getting tons of separation... and probably not small part is... small sample size. Especially when you split the sample that is already small in 2(for the two QBs). 

[DougDew]

39 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is almost brain breaking for me. Two reasons. 

 

First, why was Richardson facing "perfect coverage" so often? Is it about the opposition, was it a play calling thing, were we tipping something before the snap? That's a weird stat, and the fact that Minshew's split is less stands out to me; however, it's still higher than average, so it makes me think it's systemic. It's encouraging that Richardson was managing such a high EPA vs that kind of coverage, with so little experience, and a below average completion percentage.

 

Second, what the heck are the Niners doing over there? Shanahan is playing a different game than everyone else. Purdy deserves some credit, he makes some really nice throws to the second level. But look how easy they're making it for him... Wow.

Tipping something is my guess.  Not on each play, but I'm guessing that defenses know there is a limited playbook with AR, so the coverage has fewer plays to worry about covering with any given drop back.  They have a better sense of what's coming.  With Minshew and the full play book, there are more possible routes to cover on any given drop back.  Coverage loosens up, so perfect coverage happens less frequently.

 

I think anybody who watches Purdy play can tell that he is extremely accurate with the ball.  It almost limits the need to throw deep down field to open up the short game if a QB can place it that well consistently. 

 

Can't speak to the low perfect coverage %.  Unless DBs and LBs are very concerned about stopping McCaffrey.

[2006Coltsbestever]

24 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is almost brain breaking for me. Two reasons. 

 

First, why was Richardson facing "perfect coverage" so often? Is it about the opposition, was it a play calling thing, were we tipping something before the snap? That's a weird stat, and the fact that Minshew's split is less stands out to me; however, it's still higher than average, so it makes me think it's systemic. It's encouraging that Richardson was managing such a high EPA vs that kind of coverage, with so little experience, and a below average completion percentage.

 

Second, what the heck are the Niners doing over there? Shanahan is playing a different game than everyone else. Purdy deserves some credit, he makes some really nice throws to the second level. But look how easy they're making it for him... Wow.

With me the Jury is still out on how good Purdy really is. So far he has been great, making nice throws, putting up decent stats and was even 10-0 as a starter at 1 point. The last 2 weeks he has came back down to earth a little. With me I never anoint any QB until I have seen him play good-great for at least 3 seasons. Like with Stroud, everyone is on his jockstrap right now and he has only played 6 games. AR was even outplaying him in the game at Houston before he left with a supposed concussion. I need to see where AR and Stroud are after season 2. RG3 looked as good if not better than Luck after 1 season and that didn't age well at all.

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, RollerColt said:

I have no way of proving this, but here's my harebrained speculation: Ballard grew to be very close friends with Reich over the years, and wanted to remain patient. Perhaps he was planning to let Frank go gracefully at the end of the season. And little by little, from the tie with the Texans to whatever was witnessed in Denver... to the blowout loss against New England Jim Irsay grew frustrated enough to step in. 

 

Maybe man, but the Colts the season before were 9-6 after starting 1-4 through bad OLINE injuries.  They were darkhorse SB contenders by some media and fans at that point.  Then they were 1 overthrown reciever away from making the post after a tough start with a QB with 2 injured ankles.

 

Point is.  Frank had earned some leash as his teams were usually good offensively and competive for the post season despite revolving door QBs. 

 

 

 

 

[Myles]

17 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

You are basing that on absolutely nothing.   Do you really think Andy Reid knows absolutely everything that's happening on that sideline?   No head coach does.   That's why they have many coaches.   Frank is a good football coach,  that's not up for debate.  Is he a great football coach,  I guess we will see.   Peyton Manning thinks he is. His one time underling Siranni thinks he is.   Frank with good qb play was fine.   Show me another coach that succeeded with a crappy qb.  Look at Belichick now. 

I am basing it on the many times Frank said something like:

When the run/pass differential was very lopsided and he said that he didn't realize it during the game.  Either he cannot handle keeping track of the game or he isn't good at delegating to other coaches.   I think he is a good coach if he gives up the play calling.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

I spent good 10 second looking for Brock Purdy on the graph once I read your post. And... wow! This really does seem like they are playing a different game.  

 

On the Colts/Richardson part. IMO it's probably a mix of a lot of all of the above... a bit of the playcalling, a bit of the nature of Richardson as a rookie QB, a bit of our weapons generally not getting tons of separation... and probably not small part is... small sample size. Especially when you split the sample that is already small in 2(for the two QBs). 

 

Yeah that's a good point. This would probably average out between the two QBs. But I think the EPA with Richardson was higher across the board that it is with Minshew. Still, small sample size for a team with all these changes is a legit factor.

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

 

Maybe man, but the Colts the season before were 9-6 after starting 1-4 through bad OLINE injuries.  They were darkhorse SB contenders by some media and fans at that point.  Then they were 1 overthrown reciever away from making the post after a tough start with a QB with 2 injured ankles.

 

Point is.  Frank had earned some leash as his teams were usually good offensively and competive for the post season despite revolving door QBs. 

 

 

 

 

I was talking about last season my man, not ‘21. 

[NewColtsFan]

On 10/26/2023 at 8:20 AM, DougDew said:

Good Lord.  I know you read stuff hoping to pounce with an eager trigger, but please clearly read what I write before you go off.

 

I said IF the play calling improves and the CAR offense improves THEN its a bad look for Ballard for not seeing what many here saw.  I have no idea why you introduce supporting a coach or who traded up.  My post is about the play calling switch fixing a real problem.  If it actually does.

 

We'll see what happens.  That means the future.   The bolded ignores that important part of my post.....talk about agenda.

 

 

Taking away the play calling responsibilities from your brand new head coach is viewed by many as another step toward getting fired.  Once you take away the play calling responsibilities,  it’s even harder to give it back to him.   That observation came in the last few days from former HC,  Brian Billick.  
 

I do read carefully what you write.   I “pounce” as you put it, because some of your answers come across as nonsensical.  
Your last response made no sense to me.  That you claim Dayo is NOT living rent free in your head.   Even though you had started your post about Dayo talking about a 3-year old picture as if it had any real meaning to Dayo the player. 

[DougDew]

55 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Taking away the play calling responsibilities from your brand new head coach is viewed by many as another step toward getting fired.  Once you take away the play calling responsibilities,  it’s even harder to give it back to him.   That observation came in the last few days from former HC,  Brian Billick.  
 

I do read carefully what you write.   I “pounce” as you put it, because some of your answers come across as nonsensical.  
Your last response made no sense to me.  That you claim Dayo is NOT living rent free in your head.   Even though you had started your post about Dayo talking about a 3-year old picture as if it had any real meaning to Dayo the player. 

Yes, recognized after 6 games.  Followed by a bold move.  Which followed a bold move to get the QB they wanted.  Not timid.  Some folks like swinging for the fences rather than sitting like a do-little bump on a log.  I never participated in that discussion, just raising some similarities to it.

 

You pounce on people because what they wrote makes no sense to you?  Why do you automatically blame them for that problem?  

 

I have not been thinking about Dayo for three years.  I haven't thought about him until I read the thread.  

[csmopar]

6 hours ago, DougDew said:

If changing the play caller works, then whatever the culture/dynamics are at CAR makes whatever culture/dynamics that existed with the Colts over the past several years look bad.  I used Ballard as a symbol of the FO, but it could be Irsay too, or whomever has the authority to change play callers away from the HC....it has to be someone above the HC.

 

If it works, then CAR is getting it right and the Colts got it wrong for years.

 

I assume the Frank haters, on its surface, would love to see the new play caller at CAR succeed, but they may refuse to then acknowledge that CAR only took 6 games to recognize and fix the problem, compared to the Ballard/Irsay FO that never apparently recognized it or had the fortitude to do it.  Chew on that irony.

You’re assuming Frank was even willing to give up play calling

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, csmopar said:

You’re assuming Frank was even willing to give up play calling

It appears that he wasn't really willing now either, and CAR did a bold thing by giving him an ultimatum of sorts.  I thought I read that the owner told Frank to do it, in that Frank didn't really offer it up by himself as a solution.  

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, RollerColt said:

I was talking about last season my man, not ‘21. 

My bad, @Nickster I re-read your post and get your point lol…

 

My comprehension is a bit off today, had to teach about the fallacies of feudalism and how it all works. Needless to say I’m tired…

[NewColtsFan]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yes, recognized after 6 games.  Followed by a bold move.  Which followed a bold move to get the QB they wanted.  Not timid.  Some folks like swinging for the fences rather than sitting like a conservative bump on a log.  I never participated in that discussion, just raising some similarities to it.

 

You pounce on people because what they wrote makes no sense to you?  Why do you automatically blame them for that problem?  

 

I have not been thinking about Dayo for three years.  I haven't thought about him until I read the thread.  

No Doug….   I don’t pounce on everyone.  At least I try not to.    
 

I do pounce on you from time to time.  A) I think you take a very passive-aggressive approach and B) I think you have agendas.  
 

My approach with you is not my approach with everyone.   I respect that it appears you’ve worked hard to be civil with me.  I sincerely appreciate it.   But you have to know you hold some very unique views.  About football and other issues.  From time to time, some of those are going to get responded to.   But I’ve been enjoying our civility and would like it to continue. 
 

[DougDew]

7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

No Doug….   I don’t pounce on everyone.  At least I try not to.    
 

I do pounce on you from time to time.  A) I think you take a very passive-aggressive approach and B) I think you have agendas.  
 

My approach with you is not my approach with everyone.   I respect that it appears you’ve worked hard to be civil with me.  I sincerely appreciate it.   But you have to know you hold some very unique views.  About football and other issues.  From time to time, some of those are going to get responded to.   But I’ve been enjoying our civility and would like it to continue. 
 

My agenda in this part of the thread is to point out the apparent hypocrisy of the Frank Blamers who might be giddy at the success CAR might have if they do better, but not realizing it took the (more observant?) CAR FO only six games to recognize the (potential) problem.    

 

As you know, I wasn't/am not a Frank Blamer, nor have I ever called for Ballard's firing.  I think you place me in one extreme.  

 

I think the issue is that I play it down the middle so much as the result of dispassionate reason that it aggravates those folks who do have a passionate agenda.

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, DougDew said:

My agenda in this part of the thread is to point out the apparent hypocrisy of the Frank Blamers who might be giddy at the success CAR might have if they do better, but not realizing it took the (more observant?) CAR FO only six games to recognize the (potential) problem. 

 

Do you know that when Reich was hired in Carolina, he stated that he would be the play caller at first, but intended to hand over play calling duties to his OC? He didn't give a timeline, but he said it would happen "at some point," and that he wanted to do it. When they announced the change a few days ago, he reiterated that it was always part of the plan, and suggested they had been eyeing the bye week for this change all along.

 

That being the case, it seems misguided for this change to be attributed to anyone other than Frank Reich. Assigning responsibility for this decision to the Panthers front office doesn't track. It reads as an attempt to credit the Panthers front office as being "more observant" than the Colts front office, even though there's no evidence that anyone other than Reich is making this decision.

 

https://www.panthers.com/news/frank-reich-to-pass-down-play-calling-duties-at-some-point

https://www.nfl.com/news/panthers-head-coach-frank-reich-hands-over-play-calling-duties-to-offensive-coor#:~:text=Reich has informed his players,the plan%2C" Reich said.

[DougDew]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Do you know that when Reich was hired in Carolina, he stated that he would be the play caller at first, but intended to hand over play calling duties to his OC? He didn't give a timeline, but he said it would happen "at some point," and that he wanted to do it. When they announced the change a few days ago, he reiterated that it was always part of the plan, and suggested they had been eyeing the bye week for this change all along.

 

That being the case, it seems misguided for this change to be attributed to anyone other than Frank Reich. Assigning responsibility for this decision to the Panthers front office doesn't track. It reads as an attempt to credit the Panthers front office as being "more observant" than the Colts front office, even though there's no evidence that anyone other than Reich is making this decision.

 

https://www.panthers.com/news/frank-reich-to-pass-down-play-calling-duties-at-some-point

https://www.nfl.com/news/panthers-head-coach-frank-reich-hands-over-play-calling-duties-to-offensive-coor#:~:text=Reich has informed his players,the plan%2C" Reich said.

Thank you.  I would assume that his change of heart about play calling at some point before he took the job was due to reflection upon his time with IND, and NOT a condition of being offered the job in the first place?

 

As I said.  I believe I read somewhere that the owner pushed the move.   I don't follow everything Frank because I'm not passionate about the issue. 

 

I treat this forum as a discussion forum, not a research forum.  So if things are brought up from misinformation, take it like its given I suppose.

[csmopar]

13 hours ago, DougDew said:

It appears that he wasn't really willing now either, and CAR did a bold thing by giving him an ultimatum of sorts.  I thought I read that the owner told Frank to do it, in that Frank didn't really offer it up by himself as a solution.  

Right and let’s say Irsay had asked him to do the same thing, but instead he fired the OC. Which led to Frank being fired. 

[smittywerb]

On 10/26/2023 at 10:02 PM, jvan1973 said:

You are basing that on absolutely nothing.   Do you really think Andy Reid knows absolutely everything that's happening on that sideline?   No head coach does.   That's why they have many coaches.   Frank is a good football coach,  that's not up for debate.  Is he a great football coach,  I guess we will see.   Peyton Manning thinks he is. His one time underling Siranni thinks he is.   Frank with good qb play was fine.   Show me another coach that succeeded with a crappy qb.  Look at Belichick now. 

good football coach, horrible play caller.  Shane is miles above frank when it comes to play-calling. Remember when we had that long streak of not scoring over 20 points?  Well, this year we’re the only team left to have scored 20 points in every game. 
 

 

[Superman]

15 hours ago, DougDew said:

Thank you.  I would assume that his change of heart about play calling at some point before he took the job was due to reflection upon his time with IND, and NOT a condition of being offered the job in the first place?

 

As I said.  I believe I read somewhere that the owner pushed the move.   I don't follow everything Frank because I'm not passionate about the issue. 

 

I treat this forum as a discussion forum, not a research forum.  So if things are brought up from misinformation, take it like its given I suppose.

 

We’ll probably never know how Reich got to the point where he was interested in giving up play calling. But when he was hired, he said it was something he wanted to do. If we take him at his word with no cynicism, then it would seem that it’s his decision. But that could be spin.

 

As for the rest, it seems like you drew a conclusion based on supposition, which turned out to be inaccurate. Why not fact check yourself?

[jvan1973]

19 hours ago, DougDew said:

It appears that he wasn't really willing now either, and CAR did a bold thing by giving him an ultimatum of sorts.  I thought I read that the owner told Frank to do it, in that Frank didn't really offer it up by himself as a solution.  

It was his call.   He wasn't forced to hand over play calling

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/panthers-head-coach-frank-reich-hands-over-play-calling-duties-to-offensive-coor#:~:text=Amid an 0-6 start,Mike Garafolo reported on Monday.