Kenny compared to all the other slots/NBs (PFF and pay)...

[EastStreet]

 

Given the discussion on Kenny, slot pay and performance, etc.., thought I'd line all the data out in one place. 

IMO, it speaks for itself. 

 

NOTE:

1. I'm sure there are errors given the amount a data. If there are, sorry.... 
2. I tried to paint a full picture as possible
   • Listed all projected starting slots/NBs across all teams this year per current depth charts.
   • Listed others that have, or are projected to get snaps at slot, even if they're primarily an outside CB, a Safety, or just a pure weapon. They're not really good comps to Kenny who is more limited to slot, so I've bolded them in purple. 
   • Listed in order of PFF grades
   • Pay listed per sportrac
   • Added a little commentary about their past year or years, injury, trades if relevant, position moves, etc.. Most from memory, so apologies if I missed something. 
   • Most slots have both inside and outside reps due to depth, injury, etc.. The grades are not based on pure slot snaps. If someone who has a PFF sub wants to add, feel free!
3. For those that don't follow salary by position, outside CBs have always been paid more than slots. It's also not uncommon to use your 3rd safety as a NB. Overall, the position (rightly or wrongly) is seen as easier to fill than outside CB or FS. 
4. For those that hate PFF, or claim "eye test" when they can't possibly watch all the other slot corners.... please just don't click or comment... 

 

 

Too long didn't read....

1. Even if you remove the do-it-all or flex guys from the PFF stack rank, Kenny graded/ranked 12th among "primary slots"... 
2. 11 of those 12 make less than Kenny, most substantially less. 
3. There are only two that graded lower (very slightly lower) than Kenny, that get paid more. Both are paid as either outside CBs or flex weapons. 
4. Looking at all the data, just not sure how anyone can feel slighted lol.... That is, unless they believe they deserve outside CB or high end flex weapon type pay..... 

 

• JALEN RAMSEY, RAMS
  • 84.5
  • Elite do it all guy with over 300 snaps at both slot and outside. More outside. 
  • PAY: 20M. Paid as a do it all weapon. Inside, outside, star, etc.
• NATE HOBBS, RAIDERS
  • 78.4
  • Total stud rookie year, and the highest pure slot grade. Talking about hitting the lotto in the 5th round.
  • PAY: Making peanuts (0.95M)
• TAVIERRE THOMAS, TEXANS
  • 77.6
  • Breakout year last season and projected slot starter
  • PAY: 2M
• AHKELLO WITHERSPOON, STEELERS
  • 75.9
  • The move to Pitt did him well
  • PAY: 4M
• JAIRE ALEXANDER, PACKERS
  • 75.1
  • The newest do it all guy who just got a big contract after exercising his 5th year option. Stud both inside and out. Injured late + Covid last season, but cashed in this year. 
  • PAY: 21M (new contract), paid as a do it all weapon like Ramsey.
• AVONTE MADDOX, EAGLES
  • 72.8
  • PAY: 7.5M
• ISAIAH OLIVER, FALCONS
  • 72.6
  • Injured late Oct last season, but was playing well and is the favorite to return as starting slot.
  • PAY: 2.4M
• MIKE HILTON, BENGALS
  • 72.3
  • Has been a total beast in coverage and in blitzing
  • PAY: 6M
• XAVIER HOWARD, DOLPHINS
  • 70.9
  • Another do it all guy.. Plays inside and out. 10 INTs in 2020, 5 in 2021. Will play more outside than in, but will be moved around. 
  • PAY: 18M. Paid as an outside CB
• TARON JOHNSON, BILLS
  • 69.6
  • PAY: 8M
• EMMANUEL MOSELEY, 49ers
  • 68.7
  • PAY: 4.7M
• GREG NEWSOME, BROWNS
  • 68.1
  • Played both outside and slot last year due to Hill's issues (below), and should be primarily slot this season. 
  • PAY: 3.2M
• JAYCEE HORN, PANTHERS
  • 67.8
  • Favorite to start slot after a getting his toes wet last year as a rook
  • PAY: 5.3M (keep in mind he was a rook last season from round one, 8th pick)... 
• ANTHONY BROWN, COWBOYS
  • 67.7
  • PAY: 5.2M
• TYRANN MATHIU
  • 67.3
  • Another do it all guy. Has played substantial snaps at both slot and S
  • PAY: 9.4M... Paid as a stud Safety that can be a slot weapon in situational matchups
• KENNY MOORE
  • 66.6
  • Great performance leading up to this year, but it was a down year none the less. He was the most targeted and gave up the most receptions of any DB in the league. And picked on especially while outside. And while he does play outside at times, he's just not that good vertically, so not on the level of true do it all flex guys. 
  • PAY: 8.3M
• NIK NEEDHAM, DOLPHINS
  • 66.2
  • PAY: 4.0M
• MARLON HUMPHREY, RAVENS
  • 65.9 (76.1 2020)
  • Another do it all guy. Plays inside and out, Injured last season IR and Covid... Should be primarily outside this year with Stephens in year 2. 
  • PAY: 19.5M. Paid as an outside CB
• DANNY JOHNSON, COMMANDERS
  • 65.4
  • PAY: 1.2M
• DARIOUS WILLIAMS, JAGS
  • 65.3 (80.0 in 2021)
  • UDFA lotto winner for the RAMs, who used a 1st round tender on him in 2021, but couldn't hold onto him after the season. Started at outside corner for LAR, but shuffled inside when Ramsey wasn't at times. I list him only because he could end up inside for the Jags. Jags should have one of the best CB units in the league. Shaq Griffin, Williams, and Tyson Campbell (their 2021 2R draft pick). Personally I'd let Williams play all over, starting outside in base, and slot / star in nickel. 
  • PAY: 10M (new contract). Paid as a do it all guy
• ELIJAH MOLDEN, TITANS
  • 64.1
  • Good rookie season
  • PAY: Peanuts 1.2M
• K'WAUN WILLIAMS, BRONCOS
  • 63.3
  • Graded out better than Callahan
  • PAY: 2.6M
• CHRIS HARRIS, CHARGERS
  • 62.4
  • PAY: FA
• SEAN MURPHY BUNTING
  • 61.7
  • PAY: 1.8M
• TAVON YOUNG, BEARS
  • 60.4
  • PAY: 1.4M
• TROY HILL, BROWNS (now with RAMS)
  • 60.1
  • Converted from outside CB a few years ago to slot, but still floats. Down year for him too with injury, but was the highest graded CB in slot snaps in 2021. Will play slot when Ramsey doesn't. He'll likely have a great season given he'll be focused mostly on slot, and uh... playing with Ramsey... 
  • PAY: 4.5M
• BRYCE CALLAHAN - BRONCOS 
  • 60.0
  • Plays both inside and out, but considered an inside guy and playing outside due to necessity. Was considered the second best slot by some, and fell like Kenny. 
  • PAY: 1.3M
• BYRON MURPHY, CARDINALS
  • 59.7
  • PAY: 2.0M
• ASANTE SAMUEL JR, CHARGERS
  • 56.4
  • Not a bad rook year in 2021. Most expect him to take a big step forward. If not, Bryce Callahan (Broncs last season) is there too.
  • PAY: 1.8M
• DARNAY HOLMES, GIANTS
  • 55.8
  • PAY: 1.0M
• CHANDON SULLIVAN, VIKINGS
  • 55.0
  • Projected to take over for Alexander (bottom)
  • PAY: 1.8M
• MICHAEL CARTER, JETS
  • 53.7
  • PAY: 0.95M
• BRANDON STEPHENS
  • 53.0
  • Projected to take over slot, and likely allow Humphrey to play more outside and flex. 
  • PAY: 1.2M
• DESMOND KING, TEXANS
  • 53.0
  • Played inside and out, will likely be outside depth or swing CB this season
  • PAY: 3.5M
• JUSTIN COLEMAN, SEAHAWKS
  • 52.4
  • PAY: 1.1M
• JONATHAN JONES, PATRIOTS
  • 50.7
  • Down year like Kenny, but he's the only player to be top 10 at both run and coverage over the previous two year stretch
  • PAY: 7.0M
• MACKENSIE ALEXANDER, VIKINGS
  • 40.2
  • PAY: 1.1M
• Rooks this season expected to start
  • Trent McDuffie - Chiefs (1st round pick)
     

[Mackrel829]

Appreciate the effort put into this!

 

I think Kenny seems reasonably paid when you consider his high slot usage and inability to make a real impact outside.

 

What irks me more than anything about these kind of situations though is that players seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. When presented with the offer of an extension, they have a choice to make - sign because you want the guaranteed financial security or don't sign and gamble that you'll be offered more money in the future. Kenny made his choice to accept the financial security, and it's the same choice that I would have made if I was him. You can't take the financial security in the short term and then agitate to also get the bigger pay day later down the line. It's disloyal and dishonest.

[Chucklez]

2 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

Appreciate the effort put into this!

 

I think Kenny seems reasonably paid when you consider his high slot usage and inability to make a real impact outside.

 

What irks me more than anything about these kind of situations though is that players seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. When presented with the offer of an extension, they have a choice to make - sign because you want the guaranteed financial security or don't sign and gamble that you'll be offered more money in the future. Kenny made his choice to accept the financial security, and it's the same choice that I would have made if I was him. You can't take the financial security in the short term and then agitate to also get the bigger pay day later down the line. It's disloyal and dishonest.

I could not agree more. What's the point of a contract anymore these days?

NFL teams should blanket start changing their contracts with players to say "Guaranteed money is only guaranteed if you do not hold out." Or something more concrete and professional along those lines obviously. And they should not be paid until they decide to start participating again, not a single penny.... and any money you lost out on while "holding out", you aint getting back. You can sit there and sulk, but you are under contract.

[Mackrel829]

1 hour ago, Chucklez said:

I could not agree more. What's the point of a contract anymore these days?

NFL teams should blanket start changing their contracts with players to say "Guaranteed money is only guaranteed if you do not hold out." Or something more concrete and professional along those lines obviously. And they should not be paid until they decide to start participating again, not a single penny.... and any money you lost out on while "holding out", you aint getting back. You can sit there and sulk, but you are under contract.

 

It's not that simple for the teams though. A change like that would have to become part of the CBA and players would obviously be resistant. As I understand it, the 2020 CBA did make it more difficult for players to properly hold out, and they are punished financially for doing so.

 

The bold is exactly how it should be. You have the right to refuse to play but teams also have the right to not pay you. To be fair, that's basically exactly how it is lol. I just think teams should hold firm more often than they do. Pay one guy who agitates and suddenly you've set a precedent that others will follow. I feel like that happened in the NBA.

[AwesomeAustin]

The guy is asking for a raise. Probably doesn’t deserve one but his agent and boss will figure it out. There are compelling arguments on both sides. All I know is this year we are better off with him than without. I see Ballard playing hardball with him bc I wouldn’t budge with two years left on the contract. It opens the door for JT, MPJ and any player with two years left wanting to rework their deal or get an extension. I’m sure his new agent told him the same and why this is a “soft” holdout. 

[lollygagger8]

Not saying this about Kenny in particular, but.....

 

I really think it's infantile how players forget about all the guaranteed money they got up front when they are unhappy about the contracts they already signed. 

[DougDew]

7 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

Appreciate the effort put into this!

 

I think Kenny seems reasonably paid when you consider his high slot usage and inability to make a real impact outside.

 

What irks me more than anything about these kind of situations though is that players seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. When presented with the offer of an extension, they have a choice to make - sign because you want the guaranteed financial security or don't sign and gamble that you'll be offered more money in the future. Kenny made his choice to accept the financial security, and it's the same choice that I would have made if I was him. You can't take the financial security in the short term and then agitate to also get the bigger pay day later down the line. It's disloyal and dishonest.

You're getting into the "honor the contract" moral discussion.  Opponents will say that teams don't honor contracts when they cut players mid contract.  I would say that Ballard tends to keep players through their contracts, but makes moves with anticipation of contracts expiring (meaning he's not planning on resigning them....to big money)

 

He drafted Taylor when Mack had one year left.

Blackmon when Hooker had one year left.

Dayo when Lewis...

He's paid Franklin (or was it Speed) with Okereke....

 

I think Ballard intends to keep Moore through the term of his contract, but I assume there are several young CBs that might be viewed as a less expensive option when Moore's contract expires...considering also that slot is easier to find than outside CB.

 

I agree.  Kenny made his choice to sign the three year contract.  And Ballard appears to honor contracts...but does tend to telegraph when he's likely moving on from a player. 

 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

You're getting into the "honor the contract" moral discussion.  Opponents will say that teams don't honor contracts when they cut players mid contract.  I would say that Ballard tends to keep players through their contracts, but makes moves with anticipation of contracts expiring (meaning he's not planning on resigning them....to big money)

 

He drafted Taylor when Mack had one year left.

Blackmon when Hooker had one year left.

Dayo when Lewis...

He's paid Franklin (or was it Speed) with Okereke....

 

I think Ballard intends to keep Moore through the term of his contract, but I assume there are several young CBs that might be viewed as a less expensive option when Moore's contract expires...considering also that slot is easier to find than outside CB.

 

I agree.  Kenny made his choice to sign the three year contract.  And Ballard appears to honor contracts...but does tend to telegraph when he's likely moving on from a player. 

 

Maybe  they move Rodgers to the slot but his speed is more conducive to playing outside but his height limits him. Maybe the late pick from Yale, Thomas I believe is his name, will do something in camp. I would not budge on Moore. The Colts took at big chance on signing his most recent contract based on what they thought he may do for them and not what he had done. Moore was a relative unknown and jumped at the chance at signing the deal because he was making peanuts and knew this was his chance to make big money. I doubt if Moore would have tanked, he would have asked to renegotiate for less money. I am with the Colts on this one. If he becomes a problem, I would let him seek a trade and see what we can get back. I really doubt there would be many suitors and that maybe the best approach as it would dictate his value. I am also betting that the Colts pass rush will be vastly improved his year and they maybe able to get bye with a little weaker corner play due to more pressure on the opposing qb.

[shasta519]

8 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

Appreciate the effort put into this!

 

I think Kenny seems reasonably paid when you consider his high slot usage and inability to make a real impact outside.

 

What irks me more than anything about these kind of situations though is that players seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. When presented with the offer of an extension, they have a choice to make - sign because you want the guaranteed financial security or don't sign and gamble that you'll be offered more money in the future. Kenny made his choice to accept the financial security, and it's the same choice that I would have made if I was him. You can't take the financial security in the short term and then agitate to also get the bigger pay day later down the line. It's disloyal and dishonest.

 

It's akin to bonus hunting. I don't blame them, but I imagine it doesn't go over well with the FO.

[throwing BBZ]

20 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Maybe  they move Rodgers to the slot but his speed is more conducive to playing outside but his height limits him. Maybe the late pick from Yale, Thomas I believe is his name, will do something in camp. I would not budge on Moore. The Colts took at big chance on signing his most recent contract based on what they thought he may do for them and not what he had done. Moore was a relative unknown and jumped at the chance at signing the deal because he was making peanuts and knew this was his chance to make big money. I doubt if Moore would have tanked, he would have asked to renegotiate for less money. I am with the Colts on this one. If he becomes a problem, I would let him seek a trade and see what we can get back. I really doubt there would be many suitors and that maybe the best approach as it would dictate his value. I am also betting that the Colts pass rush will be vastly improved his year and they maybe able to get bye with a little weaker corner play due to more pressure on the opposing qb.

 

  Rogers showed some very high level ability down the stretch.
  Hopefully Gilmore shares some knowledge. We are trajecting up with our secondary, for sure!

[shasta519]

Appreciate the effort to compile all of this. 

 

I will point out that some of those CBs are still on rookie deals, so we should probably expect their pay to increase in the next year or two.

 

However, that also illustrates how much more money Kenny made early on in his career. As an UDFA, he was eligible for an extension after two years. But it's very rare for an UDFA to get paid at that point because the team still has a 3rd year of control, as well as a RFA tender year. Plus, we are talking about an UDFA...a player that wasn't even drafted. 

 

But, despite Moore only being in the NFL for two seasons (only one as a starter), Ballard offered him a 4/$33M extension, which included an $8M roster bonus for the upcoming 2019 season (only his third season in the NFL).

 

So after three seasons, Moore made slightly less money than Marshon Lattimore, who was the #1 CB in the same draft (picked #11 overall) with a gtd rookie deal. Moore actually had earned MORE than Marlon Humphrey, who was picked #16 overall.

 

And after 5 seasons, he has still made more than most of the players in that draft, including some 1st rounders.

 

But the trade off for that early security and increased earnings was the back two years of this deal. And now, while other players from that draft have put in their time and played out their rookie deals and earned big second contracts (with a lot of gtd money upfront), Moore is still locked into two more years of his contract.

 

I can definitely see it from his side, with the contracts that are being signed. But as @Mackrel829 said, he wants to have his cake and eat it too. And his timing is pretty bad with the year that he had.

 

I don't think there is any way Ballard goes for it though. 

[gspdx]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

You're getting into the "honor the contract" moral discussion.  Opponents will say that teams don't honor contracts when they cut players mid contract.  I would say that Ballard tends to keep players through their contracts, but makes moves with anticipation of contracts expiring (meaning he's not planning on resigning them....to big money)

 

He drafted Taylor when Mack had one year left.

Blackmon when Hooker had one year left.

Dayo when Lewis...

He's paid Franklin (or was it Speed) with Okereke....

 

I think Ballard intends to keep Moore through the term of his contract, but I assume there are several young CBs that might be viewed as a less expensive option when Moore's contract expires...considering also that slot is easier to find than outside CB.

 

I agree.  Kenny made his choice to sign the three year contract.  And Ballard appears to honor contracts...but does tend to telegraph when he's likely moving on from a player. 

 

 

But the fact that players can be cut is part of the agreed system between management and the players union.  So they are honoring all of the requirements of the contract.

 

If that is your problem then negotiate for more guaranteed years/money because if a player is cut then they still get the guaranteed part of the contract.  The trade off will probably less money per year for the guarantee or something like that.  

 

He sees a couple of guys get big money and now he is upset.  Give it another year and then push for a new deal.  If I refused to work to get a raise I would be shown the door. 

[Four2itus]

Well, how about if you want the money up front in guarantees on a 4 year deal, then make the contract unchangeable for 3 years. 

[Boondoggle]

Once again this is a supply and demand issue.  Slot corners are not hard to find.  You can get them in every draft and outside the early going because they're the guys who can't play outside the hash and are sourced from both the corner and safety groups.  In today's NFL with players wanting max dollar based on what they did last season it's not smart to tie up big cap money in positions that you can replenish cheaply through every draft.  Smart teams will move those types, replenish cheaply instead, and pay the big money to the harder-to-find positions.

 

I have no issues with Kenny getting a better contract btw.  He is a very good player.  Just pay him carefully.

[Mackrel829]

5 hours ago, DougDew said:

You're getting into the "honor the contract" moral discussion.  Opponents will say that teams don't honor contracts when they cut players mid contract.

 

Players still get the money that was guaranteed to them upon signing.

 

It's not the length of the contract that's binding, it's the amount of money they've agreed to receive. When players are cut, they receive all future money that the team agreed to pay them so the team absolutely is honouring the contract. 

 

Kenny Moore is attempting to receive additional money beyond the amount that was guaranteed upon signing. That's why he's not honouring the contract.

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

Appreciate the effort put into this!

 

I think Kenny seems reasonably paid when you consider his high slot usage and inability to make a real impact outside.

 

What irks me more than anything about these kind of situations though is that players seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. When presented with the offer of an extension, they have a choice to make - sign because you want the guaranteed financial security or don't sign and gamble that you'll be offered more money in the future. Kenny made his choice to accept the financial security, and it's the same choice that I would have made if I was him. You can't take the financial security in the short term and then agitate to also get the bigger pay day later down the line. It's disloyal and dishonest.

Thanks. I actually dug into trying to understand Kenny's position. I saw an interview, either ESPN or podcast last week, where they interviewed an X CB on the topic. A few statements were made about him no longer being top 5 paid, which after digging, looks to be completely false. 

 

Overall, his pay lines well among primary slots, especially if performance is considered. 

 

9 hours ago, Chucklez said:

I could not agree more. What's the point of a contract anymore these days?

NFL teams should blanket start changing their contracts with players to say "Guaranteed money is only guaranteed if you do not hold out." Or something more concrete and professional along those lines obviously. And they should not be paid until they decide to start participating again, not a single penny.... and any money you lost out on while "holding out", you aint getting back. You can sit there and sulk, but you are under contract.

 

I don't really mind hold outs in a contract year. I don't like them either, but they don't really bother me. But with two years left to go, and with mitigating factors of 1) we made him the top paid a few years ago, and 2) his performance drop.... well, that's just really hard identify with lol... 

 

In terms of your first point/question (what's the point of a contract).... To listen to some, it sounds like there's no point lol.... Too many folks these days fall into "poor player", or "bad owners" frame of mind....., or some level of entitlement attitude even when we're talking about guys making millions. It's pretty funny to me. I don't side with owners/FO, or players. They all get paid a ton to manage and play a game. I just don't feel sorry for any of them. I guess when teams starting getting refunds on bad contracts for them, I'll start feeling sorry for players who make millions and complain about their contracts. 

[AKB]

@EastStreet So in the end, we are mostly correct. He's paid just fine & he needs a good season to get anymore money, 

 

Those numbers look bad

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

It's not that simple for the teams though. A change like that would have to become part of the CBA and players would obviously be resistant. As I understand it, the 2020 CBA did make it more difficult for players to properly hold out, and they are punished financially for doing so.

 

The bold is exactly how it should be. You have the right to refuse to play but teams also have the right to not pay you. To be fair, that's basically exactly how it is lol. I just think teams should hold firm more often than they do. Pay one guy who agitates and suddenly you've set a precedent that others will follow. I feel like that happened in the NBA.

 

To the bolded, agree 100%. 

 

I think too many players these days in all sports use squeaky wheel behavior to more of less blackmail teams. Watson did the same. Forget about all the allegations and that stuff, he signed a huge contract and then a year later wants to weasel out. After being hurt by sitting him, the team finally got some return for him, but it set the franchise back. 

 

But overall, yes, a player can sulk and sit, he just doesn't get paid. But that still damages the team who has followed the rules of the CBA and contract agreed to. 

 

For Kenny, like I said, the most I'd be willing to do is make 2022 guaranteed, and commit to working towards and extension early in the offseason. No raise, no 2 year early extension. And if he doesn't like that, I'd allow his agent to seek a trade. And I'd tell his agent the price of that trade is equivalent in market value (personnel or draft capital) to what they are asking from the Colts.

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

The guy is asking for a raise. Probably doesn’t deserve one but his agent and boss will figure it out. There are compelling arguments on both sides. All I know is this year we are better off with him than without. I see Ballard playing hardball with him bc I wouldn’t budge with two years left on the contract. It opens the door for JT, MPJ and any player with two years left wanting to rework their deal or get an extension. I’m sure his new agent told him the same and why this is a “soft” holdout. 

 

Can you share what the compelling argument is on Kenny's side? He's still one of the highest paid slots in the league. His performance dropped last season and did not really rise to his existing pay level. And he's got two years left... I still can't find anything substantive from his perspective. 

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, DougDew said:

You're getting into the "honor the contract" moral discussion.  Opponents will say that teams don't honor contracts when they cut players mid contract.  I would say that Ballard tends to keep players through their contracts, but makes moves with anticipation of contracts expiring (meaning he's not planning on resigning them....to big money)

Opponents are simply wrong. Cutting a player is covered under the CBA and within the rules, and also governed by aspects of the contract. A team is still bound by all those things when they cut someone. For instance, Foles was cut, but the team still honored his guaranteed money that was agreed to within the terms of the contract should he get cut.

 

5 hours ago, DougDew said:

 

He drafted Taylor when Mack had one year left.

Blackmon when Hooker had one year left.

Dayo when Lewis...

He's paid Franklin (or was it Speed) with Okereke....

 

I think Ballard intends to keep Moore through the term of his contract, but I assume there are several young CBs that might be viewed as a less expensive option when Moore's contract expires...considering also that slot is easier to find than outside CB.

 

I agree.  Kenny made his choice to sign the three year contract.  And Ballard appears to honor contracts...but does tend to telegraph when he's likely moving on from a player. 

 

 

IMO, Rodgers would make a very good slot. Ballard has options right now IMO. 

My gut is starting to whisper that Kenny ends up asking for a trade. 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Maybe  they move Rodgers to the slot but his speed is more conducive to playing outside but his height limits him. Maybe the late pick from Yale, Thomas I believe is his name, will do something in camp. I would not budge on Moore. The Colts took at big chance on signing his most recent contract based on what they thought he may do for them and not what he had done. Moore was a relative unknown and jumped at the chance at signing the deal because he was making peanuts and knew this was his chance to make big money. I doubt if Moore would have tanked, he would have asked to renegotiate for less money. I am with the Colts on this one. If he becomes a problem, I would let him seek a trade and see what we can get back. I really doubt there would be many suitors and that maybe the best approach as it would dictate his value. I am also betting that the Colts pass rush will be vastly improved his year and they maybe able to get bye with a little weaker corner play due to more pressure on the opposing qb.

 

Purely my opinion.. but I think Rodgers lack of height will always hold him back a bit on the outside. And if it doesn't from a pure performance standpoint, some coaches might still never be able to get over the fear, reality or not.

 

I don't want Kenny gone, as his loss would create a hole in the secondary, but I think the hole would be outside now. I think we'd be fine at slot. 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  Rogers showed some very high level ability down the stretch.
  Hopefully Gilmore shares some knowledge. We are trajecting up with our secondary, for sure!

 

It'll be interesting to see how the new scheme impacts players.

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Appreciate the effort to compile all of this. 

 

I will point out that some of those CBs are still on rookie deals, so we should probably expect their pay to increase in the next year or two.

Sure thing.

Yes, rook deals are included. It's part of the landscape with all positions. But even if you eliminate those, the picture really doesn't change. If anything, the inclusion of those guys, tells us a bit about the position and the market. 

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

However, that also illustrates how much more money Kenny made early on in his career. As an UDFA, he was eligible for an extension after two years. But it's very rare for an UDFA to get paid at that point because the team still has a 3rd year of control, as well as a RFA tender year. Plus, we are talking about an UDFA...a player that wasn't even drafted. 

 

But, despite Moore only being in the NFL for two seasons (only one as a starter), Ballard offered him a 4/$33M extension, which included an $8M roster bonus for the upcoming 2019 season (only his third season in the NFL).

 

So after three seasons, Moore made slightly less money than Marshon Lattimore, who was the #1 CB in the same draft (picked #11 overall) with a gtd rookie deal. Moore actually had earned MORE than Marlon Humphrey, who was picked #16 overall.

 

And after 5 seasons, he has still made more than most of the players in that draft, including some 1st rounders.

Yup. He was treated very, very well. 

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

But the trade off for that early security and increased earnings was the back two years of this deal. And now, while other players from that draft have put in their time and played out their rookie deals and earned big second contracts (with a lot of gtd money upfront), Moore is still locked into two more years of his contract.

 

I can definitely see it from his side, with the contracts that are being signed. But as @Mackrel829 said, he wants to have his cake and eat it too. And his timing is pretty bad with the year that he had.

 

I don't think there is any way Ballard goes for it though. 

The mega contracts that are getting signed are primarily, if not solely, for guys that are outside CBs. Not sure if Kenny sees himself as a do-it-all guy, but he's really not. 

 

I agree on the cake comment lol.. 

[EastStreet]

36 minutes ago, Boondoggle said:

Once again this is a supply and demand issue.  Slot corners are not hard to find.  You can get them in every draft and outside the early going because they're the guys who can't play outside the hash and are sourced from both the corner and safety groups.  In today's NFL with players wanting max dollar based on what they did last season it's not smart to tie up big cap money in positions that you can replenish cheaply through every draft.  Smart teams will move those types, replenish cheaply instead, and pay the big money to the harder-to-find positions.

 

I have no issues with Kenny getting a better contract btw.  He is a very good player.  Just pay him carefully.

Yup, and yup...

 

You can find good corners later in the draft that might be too small for the outside and get more out of them in the slot. Or in a lot of occasions, use your 3rd S or 3rd CB and do just fine. And depending on the scheme, sometimes it's easier than others. Still need to see Gus's scheme, but both our NB and SS should both spend most of their time shallow and in the flat if we're in straight C3. 

[EastStreet]

37 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

@EastStreet So in the end, we are mostly correct. He's paid just fine & he needs a good season to get anymore money, 

 

Those numbers look bad

 

That's why I find the timing really strange. He's a squeaky wheel on a down year.... IMO, better to ball out this season for a new DC in a new scheme, and then negotiate a nice fat contract. Kill it, and make the Gus love you. 

 

Part of me is hoping he just wants his 2022 guaranteed, which I have no problem with.

 

But beginning to think things could turn toxic here like they did for him in NE. He hated the "business first" culture of NE, and got into it a bunch with the coaches, more or less resulting in his waive. NE's culture is not a fit for everyone, it did likely get uglier than it needed to be. Hope that doesn't happen here. 

[AKB]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

That's why I find the timing really strange. He's a squeaky wheel on a down year.... IMO, better to ball out this season for a new DC in a new scheme, and then negotiate a nice fat contract. Kill it, and make the Gus love you. 

 

Part of me is hoping he just wants his 2022 guaranteed, which I have no problem with.

 

But beginning to think things could turn toxic here like they did for him in NE. He hated the "business first" culture of NE, and got into it a bunch with the coaches, more or less resulting in his waive. NE's culture is not a fit for everyone, it did likely get uglier than it needed to be. Hope that doesn't happen here. 

I feel like the staff will be able to communicate with him effectively, and clear communication usually removes disagreement. 

[shasta519]

45 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Can you share what the compelling argument is on Kenny's side? He's still one of the highest paid slots in the league. His performance dropped last season and did not really rise to his existing pay level. And he's got two years left... I still can't find anything substantive from his perspective. 

He plays a lot of snaps. So there is that.

But I think it’s more about “this guy is getting $20M…even if I am a nickel CB…he’s not worth 2.5x me.”

 

Moore has been talking about his position being disrespected for a couple years now. 

[Mackrel829]

47 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

For Kenny, like I said, the most I'd be willing to do is make 2022 guaranteed, and commit to working towards and extension early in the offseason. No raise, no 2 year early extension. And if he doesn't like that, I'd allow his agent to seek a trade. And I'd tell his agent the price of that trade is equivalent in market value (personnel or draft capital) to what they are asking from the Colts.

 

I think that's reasonable but I wouldn't trade him if he didn't agree. He can sit out for as long as he wants and earn diddly squat. If he wants to sit out for two years and hope someone signs him to a vet minimum deal in 2024 then that's his call. 

[Mackrel829]

2 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

He plays a lot of snaps. So there is that.

But I think it’s more about “this guy is getting $20M…even if I am a nickel CB…he’s not worth 2.5x me.”

 

Moore has been talking about his position being disrespected for a couple years now. 

 

It's not even that the position is disrespected. It's just that good slot corners are easier to find than outside corners. Unless you're going to argue that every position is equally important, there's going to be some hierarchy of positional value.

 

Jonathan Taylor is incredibly important to this team but running backs are easier to replace than quarterbacks. Jonathan Taylor shouldn't be paid as much as Matt Ryan even though JT is arguably the best in the league in his position and Ryan is not even close to being the best at his. That's not disrespectful. It's just the nature of the game.

 

Re: the bolded - the problem is that a top outside corner probably is worth 2.5 of Kenny Moore. Would you rather have Jalen Ramsey or Kenny Moore + Troy Hill + Bryce Callahan? I'd take Ramsey and it's not even close to being close. And I'm a big fan of Kenny Moore.

[sb41champs]

Kenny's game has ascended each year.  The contract he signed a mere two years ago shows the value that the team respects him for.

 

I hate it when ANY player signs a contract and then is unhappy a year or two in to the contract life.

 

Best wishes to Kenny Moore II this season!!  If his play elevates yet again - I think the Colts front office would look seriously at extending him with a new contract.

[EastStreet]

40 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

I feel like the staff will be able to communicate with him effectively, and clear communication usually removes disagreement. 

Let's hope so. 

 

The fact this seems to be escalating (was there last week, not here this week) though is a bit disheartening. Tells me the talk hasn't helped thus far. 

 

Next week is mandatory, so we'll have a good idea where things are heading on the 7th.

[EastStreet]

36 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

He plays a lot of snaps. So there is that.

But I think it’s more about “this guy is getting $20M…even if I am a nickel CB…he’s not worth 2.5x me.”

 

Moore has been talking about his position being disrespected for a couple years now. 

Me and a buddy talked about Kenny at length this last weekend, and the snap conversation came up. I'd say it's a loaded, or double sided topic. 

 

He absolutely has played a lot of snaps. That's great in some aspects, bad in others. He's played a ton because we had injuries to Rhodes and RYS. It's absolutely a great thing that he's stayed healthy. That's not debatable. What is debatable though is that when filling in for those guys on the outside, he's not played well. And he's just not great vertically. 

 

So health is a great factor, performance outside the slot is not great. I'd also think the heavy snaps might have led to performance drops inside as well. All in all, teams circled his name last season. Most targeted, and gave up the most receptions in the league. And it worked for opposing teams, so we should expect it to continue. 

 

On the positional value, or devalued aspects of slot, it simply is what it is. Slot has always been easier to fill than outside. Teams have historically used their 3rd CB or 3rd S to fill the spot. Or they've used a good player that is simply too short to play outside. The value can certainly be debated to an extent, but the primary baseline simply won't change IMO. 

[EastStreet]

42 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

I think that's reasonable but I wouldn't trade him if he didn't agree. He can sit out for as long as he wants and earn diddly squat. If he wants to sit out for two years and hope someone signs him to a vet minimum deal in 2024 then that's his call. 

 

IMO, allowing his agent to see a trade with those trade-value requirements would help him better understand his market value. IMO, nobody is going to offer him 20ish million. He might get 10 or 12, but he'd likely get that with us if he just waits till the offseason. I think this might be a case of either him just trying to get his extension "in line" for early off season, or worst case, he's getting some very bad advice. 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

To the bolded, agree 100%. 

 

I think too many players these days in all sports use squeaky wheel behavior to more of less blackmail teams. Watson did the same. Forget about all the allegations and that stuff, he signed a huge contract and then a year later wants to weasel out. After being hurt by sitting him, the team finally got some return for him, but it set the franchise back. 

 

But overall, yes, a player can sulk and sit, he just doesn't get paid. But that still damages the team who has followed the rules of the CBA and contract agreed to. 

 

For Kenny, like I said, the most I'd be willing to do is make 2022 guaranteed, and commit to working towards and extension early in the offseason. No raise, no 2 year early extension. And if he doesn't like that, I'd allow his agent to seek a trade. And I'd tell his agent the price of that trade is equivalent in market value (personnel or draft capital) to what they are asking from the Colts.

i agree 100% here.  I hope Kenny doesn't go real hard ball here.  I think fully guaranteeing 2022 is the way to go nothing more.    If that's not good enough I think he would have to be traded.  Should be able to get a player that could help us this year.  Maybe a WR.  I would want him to stay but I'm not feeling it's going to work out that way.  Hope I'm wrong. 

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

i agree 100% here.  I hope Kenny doesn't go real hard ball here.  I think fully guaranteeing 2022 is the way to go nothing more.    If that's not good enough I think he would have to be traded.  Should be able to get a player that could help us this year.  Maybe a WR.  I would want him to stay but I'm not feeling it's going to work out that way.  Hope I'm wrong. 

 

Hope we don't lose him, but if traded, I'd want an outside CB, WR (z/slot type), or min 2nd round pick. 

[stitches]

Yep pretty much what I expected. The only players paid more are absolute stud outside corners who situationally play some slot. 

 

To be fair to Kenny he played something like 95% of the snaps last year so he must play about 25-30% outside and as a box safety, but like everybody knows and the grades show him playing outside is not actually an asset to this team. We actually would be better off if he just played the ~65-70% of snaps that we play with a slot and put other players in for the rest.

 

What I wonder is - after we pursued Mathieu in FA(he cover a lot of same roles) and us getting a new coordinator, maybe he decided to cash out before Gus Bradley has the chance to turn him into a slot only and he loses part of his leverage as a player who plays almost every snap for the Colts?

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yep pretty much what I expected. The only players paid more are absolute stud outside corners who situationally play some slot. 

 

To be fair to Kenny he played something like 95% of the snaps last year so he must play about 25-30% outside and as a box safety, but like everybody knows and the grades show him playing outside is not actually an asset to this team. We actually would be better off if he just played the ~65-70% of snaps that we play with a slot and put other players in for the rest.

 

What I wonder is - after we pursued Mathieu in FA(he cover a lot of same roles) and us getting a new coordinator, maybe he decided to cash out before Gus Bradley has the chance to turn him into a slot only and he loses part of his leverage as a player who plays almost every snap for the Colts?

 

Thinking the same things. 

But I think he might not get the response he wanted lol. 

Like I said, bad timing on several levels. Missing valuable scheme install time. 

[AwesomeAustin]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Can you share what the compelling argument is on Kenny's side? He's still one of the highest paid slots in the league. His performance dropped last season and did not really rise to his existing pay level. And he's got two years left... I still can't find anything substantive from his perspective. 

I would have to relisten to the Bring the Juice podcast. They made a couple good points but honestly I can’t think of them right now. I think logically it all points to he needs to play this year on his deal. I doubt he holds out when it becomes mandatory

[Professor Farnsworth]

I foresee Moore showing up for the mandatory's. As I have put forth before, he will 'cave in' long before the team does.

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I would have to relisten to the Bring the Juice podcast. They made a couple good points but honestly I can’t think of them right now. I think logically it all points to he needs to play this year on his deal. I doubt he holds out when it becomes mandatory

 

We won't have to wait long to find out!