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Kenny compared to all the other slots/NBs (PFF and pay)...


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I would trade him. Ballard gave him a very good contract when he got it. His current contract isn't up for another 2 years and he just blew his chance getting a 2nd here. Technically Colts didn't need to sign him till this off-season but signed him early. This is the thanks we get. 

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10 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I wonder if he will have the same “injury” Darius Leonard had during training camp before he got his new deal

Doubt it, but would not be shocked.

 

But I think we all know Leonard has been hobbled for a while lol. He might have used it, but it was also reality. 

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Listened to the Ride with JMV... 

 

Not sure who their guest was/is (Bowen?) but caught whoever it was, said the following 2 things....

  • Colts are pretty firm in their stance not to raise/extend Kenny right now with 2 years left.
  • Kenny would be fined 90-100K if he doesn't show and participate next week. 
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7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Purely my opinion.. but I think Rodgers lack of height will always hold him back a bit on the outside. And if it doesn't from a pure performance standpoint, some coaches might still never be able to get over the fear, reality or not.

 

I don't want Kenny gone, as his loss would create a hole in the secondary, but I think the hole would be outside now. I think we'd be fine at slot. 

Yup. I think the staff is really high on Tell. He took the season off and they still brought him back. He could be outside with Gilmore.  I put Rodgers inside and say bye Moore.  I have little patience for him and his demands

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Pardon my ignorance, but I’m just not as dialed-in as I used to be.

 

When did Kenny initiate this? Was it post-draft? Cuz I remember when they drafted the safety Nick Cross they talked about him playing nickel, and that dude is athletic.

 

As @EastStreet mentioned, Ballard is pretty honorable about contracts, but is always looking to the future. Maybe Kenny saw his possible replacement get drafted and is trying to get what he can get from the Colts cuz he sees the writing on the wall?

 

Season 5 Whatever GIF by Paramount+

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6 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Yup. I think the staff is really high on Tell. He took the season off and they still brought him back. He could be outside with Gilmore.  I put Rodgers inside and say bye Moore.  I have little patience for him and his demands

 

Not sure at all where you're getting all the Tell vibes. 

Zero mention of him in OTAs so far. 

Zero snaps last season even when we had bad injury problems and playing guys like Bopete.

 

And even if you remove Kenny from the equation, all the projections and depth charts have Gilmore, Rodgers, Facyson, Redmond, and Chesley ahead of Tell. Maybe he gets that 6th spot if we keep 6, but I have zero thoughts of him starting on the outside this year. Honestly, I might even switch him back to FS if he's no better than 6 or 7 on the CB depth chart. 

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4 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Pardon my ignorance, but I’m just not as dialed-in as I used to be.

 

When did Kenny initiate this? Was it post-draft? Cuz I remember when they drafted the safety Nick Cross they talked about him playing nickel, and that dude is athletic.

 

As @EastStreet mentioned, Ballard is pretty honorable about contracts, but is always looking to the future. Maybe Kenny saw his possible replacement get drafted and is trying to get what he can get from the Colts cuz he sees the writing on the wall?

 

Season 5 Whatever GIF by Paramount+

 

I haven't seen a ton of buzz about Cross at NB, but there's always mentions when there is an athletic S is involved lol. A lot of NBs in the league started out as the 3rd best S on a team. 3rd best CB too. 

 

Most of the chatter and depth charts I've seen have Rodgers or Redmon as the NB alternatives.

 

If I were to think outside the box though, I'd say both Cross and Blackmon would be good options too. Our safety situation is peculiar. McLeod looking good at FS right now. Khari being MIA without any explanation (publicly shared). We moved up to get Cross who seems like a guy who could play either FS or SS or NB.... 

 

Gonna be interesting. 

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17 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

Players still get the money that was guaranteed to them upon signing.

 

It's not the length of the contract that's binding, it's the amount of money they've agreed to receive. When players are cut, they receive all future money that the team agreed to pay them so the team absolutely is honouring the contract. 

 

Kenny Moore is attempting to receive additional money beyond the amount that was guaranteed upon signing. That's why he's not honouring the contract.

Why are you talking about guaranteed and nonguaranteed in response to my comment? (BTW, I do not believe that players receive future unguaranteed salary portions of the contract...which is why teams have "outs" usually mid contract)

 

 I simply said that people say that players have the right to hold out because they contend that teams also don't honor contracts when they cut players.  I'm repeating what opponents say. 

 

IMO, Ballard honors the contract by keeping the player through the contract...but has visions of what he's going to do as the contract expires.   It goes back to his thinking about players as "core" players or not.

 

Kenny was a UDFA that has shown to have a role in the defense.  I don't know that his skills or pedigree makes him a core-player candidate, so my guess is that Ballard is looking ahead for a replacement at the same time of keeping Kenny through his contract.  Maybe Kenny will get a new contract once the current one expires, but I don't see Ballard changing the current contract...which would essentially commit to making Kenny more of a core type player.

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17 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Opponents are simply wrong. Cutting a player is covered under the CBA and within the rules, and also governed by aspects of the contract. A team is still bound by all those things when they cut someone. For instance, Foles was cut, but the team still honored his guaranteed money that was agreed to within the terms of the contract should he get cut.

 

 

IMO, Rodgers would make a very good slot. Ballard has options right now IMO. 

My gut is starting to whisper that Kenny ends up asking for a trade. 

As I have said in the past when Rogers first started getting PT, Rogers is a keeper.  The stuff about him being undersized to match up against big slots is probably correct, but, he's scrappy enough and quick twitch enough, IMO, to get a hand in there where it needs to be, so I think he can still have a decent amount of PDs against the physical guys.  He should have few issues with the smaller shifty slot types. 

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3 hours ago, DougDew said:

Why are you talking about guaranteed and nonguaranteed in response to my comment? 

 

Because guaranteed and non-guaranteed money is directly related to the argument that you were making...

 

The position you presented (whether your own or another's) was that teams don't honour contracts because they cut players. However, when players are cut, they still receive the money that was guaranteed to them when they signed the contract. That's why it's called guaranteed money - because the contract guarantees that you'll receive it. The contract doesn't guarantee that you'll be on the team for X years.

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If Kenny was good enough to be an outside corner, wouldn't that have been explored through camp and practice? Especially with the Colts being thin there the past few years. So obviously he's not. He's made a name for himself as a good slot corner. But that's not in the same conversation as a good outside corner. And he's being paid accordingly. Critics might argue the same could be said with Nelson as a guard. Going to be interesting to see what Nelson gets and if there's any backlash from it. The Colts needed a LT, maybe Pryor is the guy? Nelson wasn't moved to LT, but will he be paid LT money? find out soon enough

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6 hours ago, DougDew said:

As I have said in the past when Rogers first started getting PT, Rogers is a keeper.  The stuff about him being undersized to match up against big slots is probably correct, but, he's scrappy enough and quick twitch enough, IMO, to get a hand in there where it needs to be, so I think he can still have a decent amount of PDs against the physical guys.  He should have few issues with the smaller shifty slot types. 

Agreed for the most part. 

I just think his ceiling is average to good as a starter on the outside, and good to great at slot. 

The dude does have great twitch and remarkable catch-up ability.

We just haven't really seen him vs a quality big and fast outside guy. 

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4 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

Because guaranteed and non-guaranteed money is directly related to the argument that you were making...

 

The position you presented (whether your own or another's) was that teams don't honour contracts because they cut players. However, when players are cut, they still receive the money that was guaranteed to them when they signed the contract. That's why it's called guaranteed money - because the contract guarantees that you'll receive it. The contract doesn't guarantee that you'll be on the team for X years.

It has nothing to do with the point I was making.   I never mentioned the word guarantee because segmenting the guaranteed and nonguaranteed portions was irrelevant to the point I was making.

 

Some see the team as not "moral" when it cuts a player mid contract for performance reasons (and thereby not paying him the remainder of the nonguaranteed portion already contracted), They see the team as not honoring the contract...the entire term (including earned compensation during that term) of the employment agreement so to speak.  They terminate it...but pay what they legally have to, which is typically only the guaranteed portions  

 

In this context, I was saying that Ballard tends to be a very "moral" GM because I don't remember him cutting any significant player mid contract, but rather allows the player to play out his contract....although Ballard will tend to know if he plans to resign the player or move on. 

 

IMO, Kenny is in the "moral" low ground on this one because Ballard intends to pay him his full contract by letting him play...and earn all of the nonguaranteed money due under the contract.   Kenny simply now wants more than he agreed to take.

 

 

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6 hours ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

@EastStreetThank you for the breakdown, it clearly shows that Kenny is fairly compensated.  I fear that his new agent may be the culprit?  Hopefully it gets resolved quickly and with little "butt hurt".

 

I'm really perplexed in some areas. I'd like to know the timing of the agent change, and reason. 

I wouldn't be shocked if Kenny dumped his old agent (I think Baker) to go with someone that told him what he wanted to hear. 

Given the history of things in NE, I'm beginning to think it's more about Kenny and less about the agent. That's a total guess though. 

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4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I'm really perplexed in some areas. I'd like to know the timing of the agent change, and reason. 

I wouldn't be shocked if Kenny dumped his old agent (I think Baker) to go with someone that told him what he wanted to hear. 

Given the history of things in NE, I'm beginning to think it's more about Kenny and less about the agent. That's a total guess though. 

You may be correct, but if it is on Kenny, then he needs to go.  There is way too much positivity leading into the season to allow for this distraction.  He either shows next week, or they need to get whatever little they can aquire for him.  As we PM'd earlier, 2 years left is not great place to renegotiate. 

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14 minutes ago, DougDew said:

It has nothing to do with the point I was making.   I never mentioned the word guarantee because segmenting the guaranteed and nonguaranteed portions was irrelevant to the point I was making.

 

Some see the team as not "moral" when it cuts a player mid contract for performance reasons (and thereby not paying him the remainder of the nonguaranteed portion already contracted), They see the team as not honoring the contract...the entire term (including earned compensation during that term) of the employment agreement so to speak.  They terminate it...but pay what they legally have to, which is typically only the guaranteed portions  

 

In this context, I was saying that Ballard tends to be a very "moral" GM because I don't remember him cutting any significant player mid contract, but rather allows the player to play out his contract....although Ballard will tend to know if he plans to resign the player or move on. 

 

IMO, Kenny is in the "moral" low ground on this one because Ballard intends to pay him his full contract by letting him play...and earn all of the nonguaranteed money due under the contract.   Kenny simply now wants more than he agreed to take.

 

Yup. And I'd add that Indy, from an organizational standpoint, is seen as one of the better environments for players, and/or player treatment. Kenny went on a rant at one time about NE, about the culture (all business, cut throat, military style, etc.). And that is clearly not the case in Indy. It was reported that Kenny got into it with coaches a lot in NE, but I don't know if I ever recall hearing that any current coach in Indy, or any of our past DB coaches or DC were considered hard to work for. I only recall hearing that previous OL coach was a throwback, tough SOB, and Indy sent him packing. 

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14 minutes ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

You may be correct, but if it is on Kenny, then he needs to go.  There is way too much positivity leading into the season to allow for this distraction.  He either shows next week, or they need to get whatever little they can aquire for him.  As we PM'd earlier, 2 years left is not great place to renegotiate. 

 

Per Bowen (I think), Indy is pretty firm on their position. I see Ballard as a reasonable and fair guy, but I also think he draws a line, and sticks to it. I'd guess whatever the outcome is, it's cared for quickly. Not saying we'll know much when it gets sorted, just that Ballard will make a decision one way or another in the next couple of weeks. I could see Ballard telling him to test the market for a trade if Kenny pushes things... And I'd be OK with that. I hope it works out though. 

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2 minutes ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

PFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTt....lol!  My stance doesn't change though ;)

 

 

Mine either. At all...

 

I've always said he's very good at slot. Just not good on the outside.

 

And he's still among the highest paid slots..... 

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19 hours ago, DougDew said:

It has nothing to do with the point I was making.   I never mentioned the word guarantee because segmenting the guaranteed and nonguaranteed portions was irrelevant to the point I was making.

 

Some see the team as not "moral" when it cuts a player mid contract for performance reasons (and thereby not paying him the remainder of the nonguaranteed portion already contracted), They see the team as not honoring the contract...the entire term (including earned compensation during that term) of the employment agreement so to speak.  They terminate it...but pay what they legally have to, which is typically only the guaranteed portions  

 

In this context, I was saying that Ballard tends to be a very "moral" GM because I don't remember him cutting any significant player mid contract, but rather allows the player to play out his contract....although Ballard will tend to know if he plans to resign the player or move on. 

 

IMO, Kenny is in the "moral" low ground on this one because Ballard intends to pay him his full contract by letting him play...and earn all of the nonguaranteed money due under the contract.   Kenny simply now wants more than he agreed to take.

 

 

 

It's literally the entire point you're making.

 

A contract is a guarantee. An NFL contract guarantees that a player will receive a certain amount of money. It does not guarantee that the player will remain on the team for the duration of the contract, nor that they will receive any money beyond that which was guaranteed upon signing.

 

A team is honouring a contract even when they cut a player because there was no agreement between the two parties that they would definitely remain on the team for a given length of time. The only agreement is that they will definitely receive a given amount of money.

 

If Ballard thinks a player is not performing to the value of his contract, he'll cut him. No one is on the team because Ballard feels that he has some moral obligation to hold onto them.

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Kenny had 100 tackles, 4 INTs, a FF, 13 PDs and 6 TFLs in a year with very little pass rush and safeties shuffling in and out of the lineup playing behind him.

 

I mean I agree it wasnt his best year in coverage but if thats a down year he must be pretty damn good. He was also banged up and played thru it and was very productive with impact plays consistently. 

 

Kenny is a zone corner. Of course he is gonna give up catches sometimes. Thats the nature of zone coverage. Im not worried about him at all.

 

He is a great player and I hope they figure something out. 

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6 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

Kenny had 100 tackles, 4 INTs, a FF, 13 PDs and 6 TFLs in a year with very little pass rush and safeties shuffling in and out of the lineup playing behind him.

 

I mean I agree it wasnt his best year in coverage but if thats a down year he must be pretty damn good. He was also banged up and played thru it and was very productive with impact plays consistently. 

 

Kenny is a zone corner. Of course he is gonna give up catches sometimes. Thats the nature of zone coverage. Im not worried about him at all.

 

He is a great player and I hope they figure something out. 

There's no doubt he's a very good slot CB.

I think folks are simply scratching their head about the timing.

And I'm sure everyone (or almost lol) hope they get it figured out. 

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

There's no doubt he's a very good slot CB.

I think folks are simply scratching their head about the timing.

And I'm sure everyone (or almost lol) hope they get it figured out. 

I think these guys now are just learning to be very proactive with thier careers. He probably feels his pro bowl bid enhanced his resume a bit and he has some leverage. Maybe he was told he needed to make a pro bowl to reach a certain threshold in terms of pay and hes trying to capitalize on it? Who knows?

 

I mean I dont really blame him. How many times have we seen a guy go down with an injury with a year or two left on his deal and get hurt financially by that? Its a legit concern for these guys.

 

I think he shows up next week. I am an optimist like that.

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2 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

I think these guys now are just learning to be very proactive with thier careers. He probably feels his pro bowl bid enhanced his resume a bit and he has some leverage. Maybe he was told he needed to make a pro bowl to reach a certain threshold in terms of pay and hes trying to capitalize on it? Who knows?

 

I mean I dont really blame him. How many times have we seen a guy go down with an injury with a year or two left on his deal and get hurt financially by that? Its a legit concern for these guys.

 

I think he shows up next week. I am an optimist like that.

 

While we agree on the previous post, we'll disagree here.

 

2 years left is simply a no-go for me. And even more  of a no-go on a down year.

 

The Pro-Bowl is a popularity contest, and really doesn't always represent performance. Had it been All Pro, that's a different story. 

 

I hope he shows up too. If not, it means it's gotten ugly. Overall, I just don't think Ballard will set this kind of precedent (2 years left).

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Holder said that the major concern of giving him more money was setting a precedent. But if they gave him some more money doesn’t it go the other way too and help with them culture. 
 

I agree with two years left it’s a no. I could understand it a little more if it was after this season going into a contact year.  I just want it to work out because this ended up being a nice off season and I would hate this becoming a distraction. Kenny has been silent on SM this week. Next week will be interesting.

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4 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

Holder said that the major concern of giving him more money was setting a precedent. But if they gave him some more money doesn’t it go the other way too and help with them culture. 
 

I agree with two years left it’s a no. I could understand it a little more if it was after this season going into a contact year.  I just want it to work out because this ended up being a nice off season and I would hate this becoming a distraction. Kenny has been silent on SM this week. Next week will be interesting.

 

Culture is already considered very pro-player. We don't need any help lol.

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On 6/1/2022 at 3:54 PM, EastStreet said:

 

Purely my opinion.. but I think Rodgers lack of height will always hold him back a bit on the outside. And if it doesn't from a pure performance standpoint, some coaches might still never be able to get over the fear, reality or not.

 

I don't want Kenny gone, as his loss would create a hole in the secondary, but I think the hole would be outside now. I think we'd be fine at slot. 

He has a 40in vertical and runs 4.3 he’s 510 

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This sounds like a situation where Kenny Moore’s agent felt his client became a star on hard knocks and wants to cash in while he’s hot.  We saw the same crap with Oladipo & the Pacers and the masked singer show.  The bigger problem is that Kenny was mostly awful in crucial games.  1 play that stuck with me all year was vs the Rams early in the season.  We had just picked off Stafford on a terribly overthrown pass and he was ready to have one of his classic Stafford meltdowns.  
 

Next drive we have them on 3rd and medium.  it’s OBVIOUS that he’s going to Kupp because his confidence is waning.  Moore stands there supposedly reading Stafford while Kupp runs a basic out at the sticks (Moore never even moved or tried to mirror him or redirect or anything).  Easy catch and Kupp scrambles untouched for 20 more yards.  And the comeback was on.  Kupp proceeded to destroy Moore for the rest of the game and single-handedly lead the comeback and won that game for them.

 

From there we saw Moore get torched again vs the better teams.  Now my last issue is that it seemed like Moore was only focused on making the pro bowl and his newfound celebrity on hard knocks.  He got his wishes.  He got to whoop it up at the pro bowl and then later put out that disingenuous tweet about “that wasn’t where the colts were supposed to be”…. What a joke.  That’s actually all that dude wanted.
 

Trade him now and get as much for him as we can.  He’s peaked and reality is setting in.  It’s all downhill from here. 

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17 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

He has a 40in vertical and runs 4.3 he’s 510 

I agree he's got great speed and great ups.

His 170ish pounds though doesn't always translate with big speed WRs. 

Personally I think he'll be more than fine vs 80+% of WRs. 

But you can't use him to press, and there's a risk vs big strong fast guys.

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27 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

While we agree on the previous post, we'll disagree here.

 

2 years left is simply a no-go for me. And even more  of a no-go on a down year.

 

The Pro-Bowl is a popularity contest, and really doesn't always represent performance. Had it been All Pro, that's a different story. 

 

I hope he shows up too. If not, it means it's gotten ugly. Overall, I just don't think Ballard will set this kind of precedent (2 years left).

I dont think he will either really. 

 

Im just saying like it or not PB goes on his resume as a player and is an accomplishment. All you have to do is watch hard knocks and see that whether or not it means anything to you, it sure meant something to him.

 

I think this is exactly why Ballard is so careful about who he brings in here. Because if I am Kenny, the minute he signs Gilmore for that much more than Im making, I'm feeling underpaid. Kenny has been much more productive over the last 2 years, hes younger and he has been here. This is the kind of stuff that happens in the locker room. 

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9 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

This sounds like a situation where Kenny Moore’s agent felt his client became a star on hard knocks and wants to cash in while he’s hot.  We saw the same crap with Oladipo & the Pacers and the masked singer show.  The bigger problem is that Kenny was mostly awful in crucial games.  1 play that stuck with me all year was vs the Rams early in the season.  We had just picked off Stafford on a terribly overthrown pass and he was ready to have one of his classic Stafford meltdowns.  
 

Next drive we have them on 3rd and medium.  it’s OBVIOUS that he’s going to Kupp because his confidence is waning.  Moore stands there supposedly reading Stafford while Kupp runs a basic out at the sticks (Moore never even moved or tried to mirror him or redirect or anything).  Easy catch and Kupp scrambles untouched for 20 more yards.  And the comeback was on.  Kupp proceeded to destroy Moore for the rest of the game and single-handedly lead the comeback and won that game for them.

 

From there we saw Moore get torched again vs the better teams.  Now my last issue is that it seemed like Moore was only focused on making the pro bowl and his newfound celebrity on hard knocks.  He got his wishes.  He got to whoop it up at the pro bowl and then later put out that disingenuous tweet about “that wasn’t where the colts were supposed to be”…. What a joke.  That’s actually all that dude wanted.
 

Trade him now and get as much for him as we can.  He’s peaked and reality is setting in.  It’s all downhill from here. 

 

I agree with some of this. But don't want to trade him unless it's necessary. 

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4 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

I dont think he will either really. 

 

Im just saying like it or not PB goes on his resume as a player and is an accomplishment. All you have to do is watch hard knocks and see that whether or not it means anything to you, it sure meant something to him.

 

I think this is exactly why Ballard is so careful about who he brings in here. Because if I am Kenny, the minute he signs Gilmore for that much more than Im making, I'm feeling underpaid. Kenny has been much more productive over the last 2 years, hes younger and he has been here. This is the kind of stuff that happens in the locker room. 

 

PB is certainly an accomplishment, but most know it's popularity contest. It's the only type of award like this that the fan vote counts as much as players and coaches.....

 

The Gilmore situation is not remotely close to being relevant IMO. First, he wasn't paid all that much (and it's a short term deal). Second, he's been one of the best outside CBs the last 6-7 years. Kenny has one PB, and it was on a down year. 

 

And sure he's older... but... Gilmore on the other hand has this resume courtesy of wiki

 

Super Bowl champion (LIII)

NFL Defensive Player of the Year (2019)

2× First-team All-Pro (2018, 2019)

5× Pro Bowl (2016, 2018–2021)

NFL interceptions co-leader (2019)

New England Patriots 2010s All-Decade Team

CFN, Phil Steele Freshman All-American (2009)

Third Team All-American (AP) (2011)

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14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I agree with some of this. But don't want to trade him unless it's necessary. 

I wouldn’t trade him unless what we got was of good/great value to us.  I’m not suggesting we drop him for nothing.  But at the time, I was wishing he was the one we traded to the Raiders over Rock.

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6 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I wouldn’t trade him unless what we got was of good/great value to us.  I’m not suggesting we drop him for nothing.  But at the time, I was wishing he was the one we traded to the Raiders over Rock.

 

Raiders would not have wanted Kenny. They have Nate Hobbs, who is one of the best grading NB's last year, and also happened to be a rook (5R). They more or less hit the NB lotto lol assuming he keeps performing well..

 

LVR did however have a big need at outside corner. 

 

 

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