Kenny compared to all the other slots/NBs (PFF and pay)...

[Goatface Killah]

14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

PB is certainly an accomplishment, but most know it's popularity contest. It's the only type of award like this that the fan vote counts as much as players and coaches.....

 

The Gilmore situation is not remotely close to being relevant IMO. First, he wasn't paid all that much (and it's a short term deal). Second, he's been one of the best outside CBs the last 6-7 years. Kenny has one PB, and it was on a down year. 

 

And sure he's older... but... Gilmore on the other hand has this resume courtesy of wiki

 

Super Bowl champion (LIII)

NFL Defensive Player of the Year (2019)

2× First-team All-Pro (2018, 2019)

5× Pro Bowl (2016, 2018–2021)

NFL interceptions co-leader (2019)

New England Patriots 2010s All-Decade Team

CFN, Phil Steele Freshman All-American (2009)

Third Team All-American (AP) (2011)

Yeah but thats not who he is now. And Kenny is a well deserving of that PB selection and has been for 3 years. Ballard has been on that train the entire time.

 

I get what youre saying Im just saying this might be his reasoning for it. 

[Smoke317]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Raiders would not have wanted Kenny. They have Nate Hobbs, who is one of the best grading NB's last year, and also happened to be a rook (5R). They more or less hit the NB lotto lol assuming he keeps performing well..

 

LVR did however have a big need at outside corner. 

 

 

Yeah. I was only hoping & wishing. Lol. And I noticed that the Raiders slot was rated higher on your list.  I was shocked though how far down the list we had to go to reach Moore.  Definitely not a year worthy of receiving a raise.

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Goatface Killah said:

Yeah but thats not who he is now. And Kenny is a well deserving of that PB selection and has been for 3 years. Ballard has been on that train the entire time.

 

I get what youre saying Im just saying this might be his reasoning for it. 

 

Disagree on Gilmore. 

Not sure how much you know about Gilmore's last two years??? 

Anyway, here it is if you weren't aware.

 

In 2020, he was knocked out for 4 weeks with Covid. Was visibly "off" when he came back due to the virus. He finally got back in the grove of things, and then suffered a partially torn quad. That quad injury knocked him out the rest of 2020, and left him on the PUP to start the 2021 season (missing 8 games).

 

When he returned from PUP last season in week 8, he played and graded well. His PFF was 77.1, which is top 10 territory grading for CBs.... 

 

On Kenny, he should have gotten the PB in 2020. But not last season. Like I said, he's a great slot corner. He's not however a good outside corner. And he should not be paid like an outside corner. And we made him the highest paid slot corner a few years ago. He's still a top 3 paid slot corner IIRC. Sorry, but simply can't support a guy we made the highest paid at his position a few years ago, wanting more with 2 years left on his contract. It would tell every player with multiple years left to be a squeaky wheel. 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

Yeah. I was only hoping & wishing. Lol. And I noticed that the Raiders slot was rated higher on your list.  I was shocked though how far down the list we had to go to reach Moore.  Definitely not a year worthy of receiving a raise.

 

Yup, he was down the list a bit. But to be fair, he's a better "slot" than his overall grade shows. He's just not that good outside. Most slot CBs play outside some, but it's a mix. I'd guess if you looked at his slot only grades, he's be much higher. Perhaps someone with a PFF sub can answer the slot only grade question. 

 

But overall, I just can't stand the timing. Wait a year For FS.. 

But if he somehow thinks he should be paid among the top outside CBs, then I think he's lost his mind. 

[Goatface Killah]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

Disagree on Gilmore. 

Not sure how much you know about Gilmore's last two years??? 

Anyway, here it is if you weren't aware.

 

In 2020, he was knocked out for 4 weeks with Covid. Was visibly "off" when he came back due to the virus. He finally got back in the grove of things, and then suffered a partially torn quad. That quad injury knocked him out the rest of 2020, and left him on the PUP to start the 2021 season (missing 8 games).

 

When he returned from PUP last season in week 8, he played and graded well. His PFF was 77.1, which is top 10 territory grading for CBs.... 

 

On Kenny, he should have gotten the PB in 2020. But not last season. Like I said, he's a great slot corner. He's not however a good outside corner. And he should not be paid like an outside corner. And we made him the highest paid slot corner a few years ago. He's still a top 3 paid slot corner IIRC. Sorry, but simply can't support a guy we made the highest paid at his position a few years ago, wanting more with 2 years left on his contract. It would tell every player with multiple years left to be a squeaky wheel. 

Who would you have put in ahead of him? Look at his stat line and compare it to whoever you suggest deserved it more. I dont think you can trump all that production just because some dude graded out 6 points higher on PFF. What does that mean on the field anyways? Its too subjective.

 

Production matters a lot. And he had a great year from that perspective. That is why he made it. 100 tackles with 6 TFLs as a small corner + 5 forced turnovers? Thats top shelf stuff right there.

 

And on Gilmore, I just dont put as much stock into PFF as you do. He has been good. But nowhere near what he was in NE. Doesnt mean he isnt still high quality. I just think Kenny is a better player at this stage of his career. 

 

I will give you an example why i am not the biggest PFF guy. Because this is indefensible.

 

Go back and look up Isaiah Oliver from last year. He is one of the guys you listed as better than Kenny according to grade. He played in 4 games. Had 11 tackles and 0 ints. Now compare that to all the production Kenny gave us. All the different things he was asked to do. They obviously dont factor production into that grade what so ever, and that is a colossal mistake. They also dont seem to consider role. Jalen Ramseys grade covering the best of the best is far more impressive than somebody asked to cover lesser receivers and posting a similar grade. There is not enough context. 

 

Kenny is punished by PFF for doing his job, which is allowing completions underneath comong up and making the tackle. Which he does as well as anyone and is given no credit for this by them. And he is also not credited for doing his job when he makes the tackle. They apprently just count that as a catch and imply he couldn't cover him and ignore what he was actually told to do. Thats a glaring mistake.

 

You are essentially doing the same thing. We heard complaints all last year about how Eberflus was having our secondary play too soft and not producing enough pressure. Likely a result of not having faith in the pass rush and safety play with the starters being out. But then you knock Kenny for not overcoming that and playing tighter coverage anyways. But if he did that he wouldve been sacrificing the integrity of the defense called and defying his coach.

 

Also, nobody ever blames the scheme when a guy gets burned. Sometimes the coach made a bad call. For example they shouldve absolutely had a better plan for Hunter Renfrow. It looked to me like they just assumed Kenny would handle it. But Renfrow is a pretty much a young Wes Welker and deserves more respect than that. But Kenny takes all the blame. Thats just not being fair to him. 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

Who would you have put in ahead of him? Look at his stat line and compare it to whoever you suggest deserved it more. I dont think you can trump all that production just because some dude graded out 6 points higher on PFF. What does that mean on the field anyways? Its too subjective.

 

Production matters a lot. And he had a great year from that perspective. That is why he made it. 100 tackles with 6 TFLs as a small corner + 5 forced turnovers? Thats top shelf stuff right there.

 

And on Gilmore, I just dont put as much stock into PFF as you do. He has been good. But nowhere near what he was in NE. Doesnt mean he isnt still high quality. I just think Kenny is a better player at this stage of his career. 

 

I will give you an example why i am not the biggest PFF guy. Because this is indefensible.

 

Go back and look up Isaiah Oliver from last year. He is one of the guys you listed as better than Kenny according to grade. He played in 4 games. Had 11 tackles and 0 ints. Now compare that to all the production Kenny gave us. All the different things he was asked to do. They obviously dont factor production into that grade what so ever, and that is a colossal mistake. They also dont seem to consider role. Jalen Ramseys grade covering the best of the best is far more impressive than somebody asked to cover lesser receivers and posting a similar grade. There is not enough context. 

 

Kenny is punished by PFF for doing his job, which is allowing completions underneath comong up and making the tackle. Which he does as well as anyone and is given no credit for this by them. And he is also not credited for doing his job when he makes the tackle. They apprently just count that as a catch and imply he couldn't cover him and ignore what he was actually told to do. Thats a glaring mistake.

 

You are essentially doing the same thing. We heard complaints all last year about how Eberflus was having our secondary play too soft and not producing enough pressure. Likely a result of not having faith in the pass rush and safety play with the starters being out. But then you knock Kenny for not overcoming that and playing tighter coverage anyways. But if he did that he wouldve been sacrificing the integrity of the defense called and defying his coach.

 

Also, nobody ever blames the scheme when a guy gets burned. Sometimes the coach made a bad call. For example they shouldve absolutely had a better plan for Hunter Renfrow. It looked to me like they just assumed Kenny would handle it. But Renfrow is a pretty much a young Wes Welker and deserves more respect than that. But Kenny takes all the blame. Thats just not being fair to him. 

 

You're ignoring some simple things. Kenny hogged stats because he was the most targeted DB in the NFL. He also gave up the most receptions in the NFL. What does that mean? It means team's likely targeted him purposefully. Sure it's because he played a ton of snaps, but it's no mystery here. Teams/offenses avoid guys that are elite on purpose. The did not avoid Kenny. A matter of fact, they did the opposite. 

 

And again, Kenny is a very good slot. He's just not great on the outside at all, or when taken vertically. 

 

And yes, I agree the coaches share some of the blame. They should have limited his snaps more to zone slot. 

[Goatface Killah]

18 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

You're ignoring some simple things. Kenny hogged stats because he was the most targeted DB in the NFL. He also gave up the most receptions in the NFL. What does that mean? It means team's likely targeted him purposefully. Sure it's because he played a ton of snaps, but it's no mystery here. Teams/offenses avoid guys that are elite on purpose. The did not avoid Kenny. A matter of fact, they did the opposite. 

 

And again, Kenny is a very good slot. He's just not great on the outside at all, or when taken vertically. 

 

And yes, I agree the coaches share some of the blame. They should have limited his snaps more to zone slot. 

You dont target a specific corner in zone coverage, you target a hole in the zone. Just because Kenny is the closest guy doesnt mean they were targeting him. 

 

I still wanna know who you would put in ahead of him last year.

 

 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

You dont target a specific corner in zone coverage, you target a hole in the zone. Just because Kenny is the closest guy doesnt mean they were targeting him. 

 

I still wanna know who you would put in ahead of him last year.

LOL... so I guess you think teams and QBs had no clue where his zone was lol... didn't factor at all into their game plan... 

C'mon man.

 

On your question.... I don't want to get rid of Kenny. But I'd take Hilton and Johnson and expect the same or better performance. And in our scheme, I'd expect the same or better of Jones (NE expects much more of their slots than we do). And there are several young rooks I'd take as well. Hobbs looks to be the real deal. 

[Goatface Killah]

34 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

LOL... so I guess you think teams and QBs had no clue where his zone was lol... didn't factor at all into their game plan... 

C'mon man.

 

On your question.... I don't want to get rid of Kenny. But I'd take Hilton and Johnson and expect the same or better performance. And in our scheme, I'd expect the same or better of Jones (NE expects much more of their slots than we do). And there are several young rooks I'd take as well. Hobbs looks to be the real deal. 

No I dont think they target Kenny Moore specifically. I think the Colts give Kenny less help and that naturally pushes the play into his area sometimes, which the Colts probably dont mind. Hes a sure tackler and a playmaker for our defense. 

 

And I mean these guys are all really good players. Hilton and Moore is a toss up but Ill take Kenny and be happy.

 

 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Goatface Killah said:

No I dont think they target Kenny Moore specifically. I think the Colts give Kenny less help and that naturally pushes the play into his area sometimes, which the Colts probably dont mind. Hes a sure tackler and a playmaker for our defense. 

 

And I mean these guys are all really good players. Hilton and Moore is a toss up but Ill take Kenny and be happy.

 

It wasn't a help thing.

 

Not sure how familiar you are with our coverages, but here's the basics. 

 

We vary coverages a lot depending on the offense we're playing.

Last I saw, we played C3 the most, but it was still under 30% of the time.

 

Kenny's responsibilities are pretty straight forward depending on coverage. 

In C3 or quarters (C4) or quarter quarter half (C6), it's typically going to be the flat/curl

In C2, typically going to be the hook/hole

If we're playing the match/rip liz stuff, typically both he and the SS will have the #2 (inside) verticals. 

 

But in short, in a zone, everyone has their own responsibility. In everything but the match stuff, there's typically a handoff from zone to zone. 

[jbaron04]

16 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I agree he's got great speed and great ups.

His 170ish pounds though doesn't always translate with big speed WRs. 

Personally I think he'll be more than fine vs 80+% of WRs. 

But you can't use him to press, and there's a risk vs big strong fast guys.

Yea that might be an issue slants and red zone  but As I always say you play the ball not the man when it’s deep , 

[Goatface Killah]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

It wasn't a help thing.

 

Not sure how familiar you are with our coverages, but here's the basics. 

 

We vary coverages a lot depending on the offense we're playing.

Last I saw, we played C3 the most, but it was still under 30% of the time.

 

Kenny's responsibilities are pretty straight forward depending on coverage. 

In C3 or quarters (C4) or quarter quarter half (C6), it's typically going to be the flat/curl

In C2, typically going to be the hook/hole

If we're playing the match/rip liz stuff, typically both he and the SS will have the #2 (inside) verticals. 

 

But in short, in a zone, everyone has their own responsibility. In everything but the match stuff, there's typically a handoff from zone to zone. 

I dont pretend to know coverages.

 

I believe at the NFL level its way more complex than you are suggesting.

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

I dont pretend to know coverages.

 

I believe at the NFL level its way more complex than you are suggesting.

 

There are certainly wrinkles that can be applied. Bill B for example seems to add frequent wrinkles to his coverages (he's widely known for rip/liz or match, and inserting one off wrinkle) while playing his Okie base.... But we're not the Pats lol.. And we've played a very bland front 4 that keeps things somewhat simple on the backend. So most time, C1, C2, C3, C4, and C6 simply are what they are. 

 

That said, it's not a mystery though if you have a basic understanding of coverages. I'm no expert, but I can look at a play and tell you what the coverage is most downs. It's just not that complex if you know what you're looking at. 

 

And honestly, if you don't know coverages, this conversation/debate really can't be substantive. 

[Goatface Killah]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

There are certainly wrinkles that can be applied. Bill B for example seems to add frequent wrinkles to his coverages (he's widely known for rip/liz or match, and inserting one off wrinkle) while playing his Okie base.... But we're not the Pats lol.. And we've played a very bland front 4 that keeps things somewhat simple on the backend. So most time, C1, C2, C3, C4, and C6 simply are what they are. 

 

That said, it's not a mystery though if you have a basic understanding of coverages. I'm no expert, but I can look at a play and tell you what the coverage is most downs. It's just not that complex if you know what you're looking at. 

 

And honestly, if you don't know coverages, this conversation/debate really can't be substantive. 

This isnt a debate about coverages. And to be fair, just knowing the names of coverages teams play doesnt mean you really understand them and the assignments in each and how they are coached to play those assigments and the different techniques they use and the different gameplans they use. There is alot more nuance than you suggest and thats why you even admit, youre NOT an expert. If you knew all that stuff, you would be.

 

Regardless this has kind of gotten off the rails. I just dont think youre really making much sense in regard to who Kenny is as a player. 

 

Kenny cant be really good and also be someone teams pick on when we play them and only get stats becausr of that. 

 

 

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

This isnt a debate about coverages. And to be fair, just knowing the names of coverages teams play doesnt mean you really understand them and the assignments in each and how they are coached to play those assigments and the different techniques they use and the different gameplans they use. There is alot more nuance than you suggest and thats why you even admit, youre NOT an expert. If you knew all that stuff, you would be.

 

Regardless this has kind of gotten off the rails. I just dont think youre really making much sense in regard to who Kenny is as a player. 

 

Kenny cant be really good and also be someone teams pick on when we play them and only get stats becausr of that. 

 

Standard C1 through C6 zone coverage assignments are pretty basic. You don't have to be an "expert" to know them. Match or rip/liz can be more complex, but I've learned a good amount about them as well. But overall when it comes to slot CB, assignments are not a huge mystery. I'm sorry if it's a magical mystery to you.

 

And if I'm talking specifics about coverages and coverage assignments, and by your own admission you know nothing about coverages, then of course I wouldn't make sense to you. But that's not a "me" problem. 

[Goatface Killah]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Standard C1 through C6 zone coverage assignments are pretty basic. You don't have to be an "expert" to know them. Match or rip/liz can be more complex, but I've learned a good amount about them as well. But overall when it comes to slot CB, assignments are not a huge mystery. I'm sorry if it's a magical mystery to you.

 

And if I'm talking specifics about coverages and coverage assignments, and by your own admission you know nothing about coverages, then of course I wouldn't make sense to you. But that's not a "me" problem. 

Knowing your limitations is not a problem at all.

 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

Knowing your limitations is not a problem at all.

 

 

Not at all.

Like I said, not an expert, but I know the 101, and perhaps 202 level compared to most. I've been blessed to have FB folks in my circle of family and friends, and I'm also not afraid to read and learn. 

[GoColts8818]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-slot-cornerback-rankings-tiers-2022
 

some numbers that say Kenny isn’t as bad as some want him to be since he decided to hold out.  Still don’t agree with a hold out with two years on your deal and I don’t think it’s going to get Kenny what he wants and he will ultimately be back but I also disagree with arguing he hasn’t been good because he’s doing something we don’t like.

[EastStreet]

Just now, GoColts8818 said:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-slot-cornerback-rankings-tiers-2022
 

some numbers that say Kenny isn’t as bad as some want him to be since he decided to hold out.  Still don’t agree with a hold out with two years on your deal and I don’t think it’s going to get Kenny what he wants and he will ultimately be back but I also disagree with arguing he hasn’t been good because he’s doing something we don’t like.

 

Already posted.

It's slot only grade

I think everyone/most agrees he's a great slot.

And I think the overwhelming majority want him back.

We're better with him, than without him!

[LJpalmbeacher2]

On 6/1/2022 at 3:28 PM, EastStreet said:

Thanks. I actually dug into trying to understand Kenny's position. I saw an interview, either ESPN or podcast last week, where they interviewed an X CB on the topic.  

 

That's easy, he plays Slot Corner.

               

[EastStreet]

Looks like Kenny is back (that doesn't mean the situation is close to being resolved)...

Still no word on Khari

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

doesn't look like he stayed long lol

wonder if this will be another "shows up, doesn't participate" situation. 

 

 

[LiveAndLetAddai]

  He just needs to show up, ball out, and then * about a new contract with one year left....did he miss the memo? 

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

  He just needs to show up, ball out, and then * about a new contract with one year left....did he miss the memo? 

How about you tell that to his face just to make sure he got it and let us know how that works out for you.

[Smoke317]

Back to back pro bowl seasons would go a long way towards Moore getting that big new contract extension from Ballard.  He can do it too.  Instead of the Hard Knocks cameras motivating him, it’s gonna be the cameras from those prime time games this season.  Time to show out for his peers across the league and make it official.

[LiveAndLetAddai]

11 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Back to back pro bowl seasons would go a long way towards Moore getting that big new contract extension from Ballard.  He can do it too.  Instead of the Hard Knocks cameras motivating him, it’s gonna be the cameras from those prime time games this season.  Time to show out for his peers across the league and make it official.

Precisely....

[GoColts8818]

59 minutes ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

Sarcasm is beyond you, I guess?  Wow, just WOW!  LMBO!

Yes I am at fault for not picking up sarcasm when there was nothing to suggest it was sarcasm.  If only there was a way to say something is sarcasm here.   Oh wait there is!

[LiveAndLetAddai]

8 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Yes I am at fault for not picking up sarcasm when there was nothing to suggest it was sarcasm.  If only there was a way to say something is sarcasm here.   Oh wait there is!

Truthfully, I am a boss.  If an employee tried to renegotiate with me after signing a contract that was fair, yet had two years left, and it was fair.  I would tell them exactly what I wrote.  Not fearing any consequences, as I would never hire someone that I had to worry about ridiculous retribution, should they become "butt hurt". 

 

If I was the Colts GM, I would say the same, regardless of retribution.  We live in a "big boy world", time for some to put their's on...

 

Like I said, cranberry juice may help with that issue...you seem irritable?

 

[GoColts8818]

2 minutes ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

Truthfully, I am a boss.  If an employee tried to renegotiate with me after signing a contract that was fair, yet had two years left, and it was fair.  I would tell them exactly what I wrote.  Not fearing any consequences, as I would never hire someone that I had to worry about ridiculous retribution, should they become "butt hurt". 

 

If I was the Colts GM, I would say the same, regardless of retribution.  We live in a "big boy world", time for some to put their's on...

 

Like I said, cranberry juice may help with that issue...you seem irritable?

 

So it wasn’t sarcasm.

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

Truthfully, I am a boss.  If an employee tried to renegotiate with me after signing a contract that was fair, yet had two years left, and it was fair.  I would tell them exactly what I wrote.  Not fearing any consequences, as I would never hire someone that I had to worry about ridiculous retribution, should they become "butt hurt". 

 

If I was the Colts GM, I would say the same, regardless of retribution.  We live in a "big boy world", time for some to put their's on...

 

Like I said, cranberry juice may help with that issue...you seem irritable?

 

Yup. Fair, and 2 years left. I don't have a problem so much with holdouts in contract years, but this isn't one.

 

So stop the tantrum, ball out, and earn a nice big extension in the off season.

 

No sarcasm. 

[LiveAndLetAddai]

3 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

So it wasn’t sarcasm.

Yet it was, as I am not Ballard...but NOT now Mary!  Pamprin may help?

[LiveAndLetAddai]

10 minutes ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

Yet it was, as I am not Ballard...but NOT now Mary!  Pamprin may help?

Warning, in one, two, three....just like the real NFL, they never get the guy who gives the initial shove, just the one that shoves back!

[EastStreet]

 

Wish @MPStack would grace us with his take on the situation lol... 

[Thunderbolt]

Moore just wanted more money like everyone else, the difference is he's still have two years on his contract and CB was not about to start a precedence with Moore.  Luckily he thought this through and was smart enough to realize he was going to lose a lot of money through fines if he didn't participate in the Mini Camp(mandatory) or may even get traded.  

[GoColts8818]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:23 PM, Goatface Killah said:

I dont pretend to know coverages.

 

I believe at the NFL level its way more complex than you are suggesting.

 

 

 

It is.  If it was this simple anyone could be a NFL coach.  The reality is that people that dedicate their lives to being coaches can’t figure out the NFL.

[EastStreet]

8 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

It is.  If it was this simple anyone could be a NFL coach.  The reality is that people that dedicate their lives to being coaches can’t figure out the NFL.

Defenses are always evolving. Rip/Liz or match is a great example. But basic Cx zones are not hard to comprehend in terms of assignments. 

[EastStreet]

Kenny quotes today

 

“I would love to be on the field at training camp,” Moore said, via Joel A. Erickson of the Indianapolis Star. “With it being June right now, I’m just taking it one day at a time right now, respectfully.”

 

“I won’t go into comparisons or anything, all that stuff will handle itself,” Moore said. “But as far as my play, I don’t like the whole nickel, slot corner thing. I’m a corner at the end of the day. You guys watch the games that we play.”

 

Overall - feeling more and more like he wants to be paid as a top 5 CB.... which is 20M....