Darius Leonard proves he is the best linebacker in the NFL.

[Goatface Killah]

10 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

The reality is, as ever, likely between the two polarised extremes that seem to get applied to Leonard. 

 

Let's start with this obsession about tackle numbers, it's a horribly bad stat to * a player because it provides absolutely zero context. For example if you're on a bad team where the D is on the field more, you're more likely to have tackle opportunities. Where the tackle was made is more interesting (TFLs/Yards gained pre-tackle). We can see from the numbers and the film that Leonard isn't too bad at getting penetration when the play calls for him to rush. 

 

Besides, what contributes to success more, tackles or turnovers. Sounds a stupid question I know, but giving up yard doesn't necessarily lead to losing, while losing the turnover battle tends to have more impact on win %:

 

 

We complained long and hard about not having a playmaker on Defense for many seasons, we now have one, and people complain he's too splashy? 

 

The pass coverage is more suspect, but odd. Because he was pretty good in his (2nd?) season, before dropping off. I don't know how much injury is impacting this year. I also don't know how much is down to the 'react and rally' type scheme that we seem to use. 

 

As for the money, that's just the way the NFL works, constant inflation of contract value, and the last guy who got paid will be overpaid until the next guy gets paid. We're not too far removed from the outcry and QBs going north of $20 million a year for some pretty average QBs, now that would be a steal for a legit starting QB (excluding rookies). 

 

He is what he is, a playmaker, a very very good player, a team leader,  but perhaps not the complete package (yet). 

I personally suspect he has been given the freedom to do what he wants out on the field, which was given to him based off his success at forcing turnovers. The coaches want him playing instinctually and that leads to him making mistakes in coverage that lead to big plays. He has all the tools to be GREAT IN COVERAGE, not just good, but GREAT.

 

He is probably the most athletic LB in the league. Why else wouldnt he be good in coverage?

 

I see it as a coaching issue. They need to reel him in a little and have him playing assignment first. His big plays typically come because he is in great position, not thru instincts. 

[EastStreet]

 

As someone else mentioned above, the truth is somewhere in between.... 

• Forced fumbles - he's elite. Tied for #2 this year (with about 5 others). 
• Tackles - he's great/elite here too, but slowed this year by injuries so his normal big tackle total will be down
• INTs - a bit overrated here, and many are gifts (his two this year are pretty much right to him)
• Pass coverage - was very good his sophomore season but has been mediocre the last two.

Overall, his value is what teams are willing to pay. And we were willing to pay. He's not perfection, but very good at a lot of things. I liked hearing him say that he's having to improve technique this year due to his injury. Hopefully he can heal up in the offseason and the technique work will pay dividends next year. 

 

And to the OP and comment about Warner having poor production... Warner had a lot more general production last night than Leonard. Leonard just had the splash play.

[krunk]

 

[krunk]

34 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

As someone else mentioned above, the truth is somewhere in between.... 

• Forced fumbles - he's elite. Tied for #2 this year (with about 5 others). 
• Tackles - he's great/elite here too, but slowed this year by injuries so his normal big tackle total will be down
• INTs - a bit overrated here, and many are gifts (his two this year are pretty much right to him)
• Pass coverage - was very good his sophomore season but has been mediocre the last two.

Overall, his value is what teams are willing to pay. And we were willing to pay. He's not perfection, but very good at a lot of things. I liked hearing him say that he's having to improve technique this year due to his injury. Hopefully he can heal up in the offseason and the technique work will pay dividends next year. 

 

And to the OP and comment about Warner having poor production... Warner had a lot more general production last night than Leonard. Leonard just had the splash play.

He catches his gift Int though. Not everyone does. Okereke is a good example. He drops at leadt 1 gift Int every game.

[coltsfan_canada]

39 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

As someone else mentioned above, the truth is somewhere in between.... 

• Forced fumbles - he's elite. Tied for #2 this year (with about 5 others). 
• Tackles - he's great/elite here too, but slowed this year by injuries so his normal big tackle total will be down
• INTs - a bit overrated here, and many are gifts (his two this year are pretty much right to him)
• Pass coverage - was very good his sophomore season but has been mediocre the last two.

Overall, his value is what teams are willing to pay. And we were willing to pay. He's not perfection, but very good at a lot of things. I liked hearing him say that he's having to improve technique this year due to his injury. Hopefully he can heal up in the offseason and the technique work will pay dividends next year. 

 

And to the OP and comment about Warner having poor production... Warner had a lot more general production last night than Leonard. Leonard just had the splash play.

 

What about his sacks?? Meh??

[Nickster]

43 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

As someone else mentioned above, the truth is somewhere in between.... 

• Forced fumbles - he's elite. Tied for #2 this year (with about 5 others). 
• Tackles - he's great/elite here too, but slowed this year by injuries so his normal big tackle total will be down
• INTs - a bit overrated here, and many are gifts (his two this year are pretty much right to him)
• Pass coverage - was very good his sophomore season but has been mediocre the last two.

Overall, his value is what teams are willing to pay. And we were willing to pay. He's not perfection, but very good at a lot of things. I liked hearing him say that he's having to improve technique this year due to his injury. Hopefully he can heal up in the offseason and the technique work will pay dividends next year. 

 

And to the OP and comment about Warner having poor production... Warner had a lot more general production last night than Leonard. Leonard just had the splash play.

The forced fumbles thing is insane.  There are other guys with 5 forced fumbles?  Wow.  I personally never recall seeing a guy force the ball out that much, other than maybe Wilbur Marshall back in the day but I was in my pubescence back then and they say you don’t remember right when that testosterone starts flooding your body and it was, well 35 years ago.
 

I also think the Brooks comparisons are almost ridiculous.  He was the best player on one of the best defenses in history.  He played free safety from the MLB spot in T2 and was often 30 yds down the field running with TEs and even some slot guys.  Different player entirely IMO.  
 

But I said earlier here or somewhere else the fumble thing is astounding. Seems like it must be a anomalous, but if he is still on this pace by the end of the years then I will have to re evaluate.  

 

He might have made more money as a boxer with the way he punches.

[EastStreet]

41 minutes ago, krunk said:

He catches his gift Int though. Not everyone does. Okereke is a good example. He drops at leadt 1 gift Int every game.

Absolutely. Gotta catch them if they're thrown right at you. And yes, Oke has dropped a few easy ones.

 

Leonard is much, much more "in the moment" than a lot of guys. He rarely drops a ball to him, and he's zero'd in on his peanut punches. 

[EastStreet]

45 minutes ago, coltsfan_canada said:

 

What about his sacks?? Meh??

Historically he's got a decent pressure to blitz ratio. Last year was pretty decent at 18%. I don't think they are blitzing him as much this year due to his ankle. His pressure/blitz rate is a ton better than Oke's. 

[EastStreet]

37 minutes ago, Nickster said:

The forced fumbles thing is insane.  There are other guys with 5 forced fumbles?  Wow.  I personally never recall seeing a guy force the ball out that much, other than maybe Wilbur Marshall back in the day but I was in my pubescence back then and they say you don’t remember right when that testosterone starts flooding your body and it was, well 35 years ago.
 

I also think the Brooks comparisons are almost ridiculous.  He was the best player on one of the best defenses in history.  He played free safety from the MLB spot in T2 and was often 30 yds down the field running with TEs and even some slot guys.  Different player entirely IMO.  
 

But I said earlier here or somewhere else the fumble thing is astounding. Seems like it must be a anomalous, but if he is still on this pace by the end of the years then I will have to re evaluate.  

 

He might have made more money as a boxer with the way he punches.

Leonard has 3 forced fumbles on the year. One LB has 4 (Markus Goldman IIRC), and 4 others with 3. A ton of guys with 2.

[Goatface Killah]

Its really hard because I personally dont think Derrick Brooks would be the cover guy he was 20 years ago, today. Not saying he wouldnt be good. Just that its a tough conparison to make because the game has changed.

 

Darius is asked to cover a much bigger portion of the field than Brooks was.

 

That Bucs team also had an all time great defense and that certainly helped him cover TEs in a completely different era.

 

Anyway, here is an article from PFF that suggests these issues with his coverage ability might be a little overblown.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-indianapolis-colts-darius-leonard-highest-paid-linebacker-extension

[2006Coltsbestever]

23 hours ago, Hawkeyecolt said:

Leonard had 2 solo tackles.  Two and it was one of the first times all season he met a RB in a hole and made a tackle.  He is so overpaid it’s ridiculous.  He doesn’t tackle anyone, he doesn’t cover anyone but he will run around the field punching at the football. People overlook the rest because he does create some turnovers usually against bad teams.  I’m glad the Colts won but thank goodness for the weather. BTW, Buckner led the team in solos with 5.  He was the defender of the game. 

I really hope you are being sarcastic because this could get nominated for dumbest post of the year 

[Hawkeyecolt]

23 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

This isnt true at all.

 

Thru his first 4 years he has amassed 465 tackles, 12 FF,  9 INTs and 15 sacks.

 

He has 10 games left this year.

 

Derrick Brooks had 515 tackles, 9 FF,  4 INT and 2.5 sacks his first 4 full seasons. 

 

So all Darius needs is to average 6 tackles a games the rest of the season to surpass his totals, and has already surpassed his other totals.

 

This Darius Leonard hate is some of the most bizarre stuff Ive ever seen. 

Now break it to solo tackles.  There’s zero hate for Leonard.  Like I said he’s a playmaker but he is not the top linebacker in the league. I think he’s a good not great linebacker.  I’d like to see the Colts blitz him more and utilize his strengths.  I would love to see him have a monster game against Tennessee because he was a no show @ Tennessee. 

[Goatface Killah]

25 minutes ago, Hawkeyecolt said:

Now break it to solo tackles.  There’s zero hate for Leonard.  Like I said he’s a playmaker but he is not the top linebacker in the league. I think he’s a good not great linebacker.  I’d like to see the Colts blitz him more and utilize his strengths.  I would love to see him have a monster game against Tennessee because he was a no show @ Tennessee. 

Darius Leonard has 298 Solo Tackles in his first 49 games played over his initial 3+ years.

 

Derrick Brooks had 354 Solo Tackles in his first 64 games played over his initial 4 years.

 

So.......Darius has 15 games to get another 56 solo tackles to equal Brooks. He is currently averaging around 6 of those a game so he should grab about 90 by the time he plays as many as Brooks played over his first 4 seasons. 

 

Man listen, youre just wrong. I dont know what to tell you. You have made all these statements and they are just not true. If they were, Id agree with you. But its just not.

 

Darius has some weaknesses. But making tackles isnt one of them. 

[Nickster]

9 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

Its really hard because I personally dont think Derrick Brooks would be the cover guy he was 20 years ago, today. Not saying he wouldnt be good. Just that its a tough conparison to make because the game has changed.

 

Darius is asked to cover a much bigger portion of the field than Brooks was.

 

That Bucs team also had an all time great defense and that certainly helped him cover TEs in a completely different era.

 

Anyway, here is an article from PFF that suggests these issues with his coverage ability might be a little overblown.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-indianapolis-colts-darius-leonard-highest-paid-linebacker-extension

How is Leonard asked to cover more of the field than Brooks as a Tampa 2 LB?

 

 

[AKB]

obviously this thread was required. so much leonard hate in here it is ridiculous. he gets more love outside of indy, and if that ain't opposite of the norm then I don't know what is. 

[Nesjan3]

2 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

obviously this thread was required. so much leonard hate in here it is ridiculous. he gets more love outside of indy, and if that ain't opposite of the norm then I don't know what is. 

The same people who complained we had no offensive line and playmakers on defense are the same people who call Leonard overrated and Nelson too expensive. 

[Four2itus]

11 hours ago, Hawkeyecolt said:

I think he’s a good not great linebacker.

Well....you just go on and hang your hat on that. 

[SteelCityColt]

36 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Well....you just go on and hang your hat on that. 

 

He tried but it was picked off by Leonard.. 

[Goatface Killah]

5 hours ago, Nickster said:

How is Leonard asked to cover more of the field than Brooks as a Tampa 2 LB?

 

 

Because offenses have changed, and Darius doesnt play a pure Tampa 2. We play way more coverages than those Tampa teams did.

 

Used to in the tampa 2 the dime LB primarily covered the TE down the seem a lot, and that was more like Man coverage that required the LB to turn his back to the QB and run with the TE.

 

Gary Brackett was great at it. Leonard is actually pretty good at that as well.

 

He struggles most with crossing routes behind him. And I think there is much more of that now than back then. 

[Nickster]

37 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

Because offenses have changed, and Darius doesnt play a pure Tampa 2. We play way more coverages than those Tampa teams did.

 

Used to in the tampa 2 the dime LB primarily covered the TE down the seem a lot, and that was more like Man coverage that required the LB to turn his back to the QB and run with the TE.

 

Gary Brackett was great at it. Leonard is actually pretty good at that as well.

 

He struggles most with crossing routes behind him. And I think there is much more of that now than back then. 

Brooks covered down the field man.  A lot.

[coming on strong]

14 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Brooks covered down the field man.  A lot.

I was gonna say I thought in Tampa 2 the line backer plays back deep because the safeties are so far back 

[Nickster]

7 minutes ago, coming on strong said:

I was gonna say I thought in Tampa 2 the line backer plays back deep because the safeties are so far back 

Basically the FS in cover 3, only has LOS run responsibility.  One of the reasons you don’t see it much anymore that and it was basically installed to contain West coast and they also don’t let you try to basically kill the receiver in the middle of field anymore.

[Goatface Killah]

On 10/26/2021 at 2:36 PM, Nickster said:

Brooks covered down the field man.  A lot.

I know he did. 

 

Im saying the variety of coverages he played, and the amount of ways he was attacked in coverage, and the amount of pass plays where he was forced to play pass defense, were not nearly what Darius Leonard faces playing in this era.

 

Since Brooks retired, passing is up league wide in rating, completions, attempts, yards, YPA, TDs and interception % has been cut by nearly 30%. The league wide passer rating is up 10 points in the last 10 years. 

 

Brooks was leaving football as the passing game was exploding. In 2010 there had been 2 5k passers in the 90 year history of the league. Marino in 84 and Brees in 08. Since then there have been 10 more. 

 

They also didnt flag you for PI anytime you touched a receiver back then.

[Mitch Connors]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:01 PM, EastStreet said:

Overall, his value is what teams are willing to pay. And we were willing to pay. He's not perfection, but very good at a lot of things. I liked hearing him say that he's having to improve technique this year due to his injury. Hopefully he can heal up in the offseason and the technique work will pay dividends next year. 

 

Bingo. People on the fence about paying Leonard reminds me of Dallas messing around with Dak a couple years ago. Its not just about how much you think their play is worth its also the cost of replacing them if you dont pay them. Lets say Dak was the 11th best QB (this was last year remember) is he worth top 3 pay? No he isn't based on his play but how easily can you find AND pay a QB in the top 10 that's better than him? That's not going to happen which puzzled me about the way Dallas played that. Same thing here. Can Leonard be better? Sure. Can you replace him easily with someone better and cheaper? Absolutely not.

[AKB]

when you come to talk trash about 53 and he punches you instead of the ball.

[EastStreet]

24 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

 

Bingo. People on the fence about paying Leonard reminds me of Dallas messing around with Dak a couple years ago. Its not just about how much you think their play is worth its also the cost of replacing them if you dont pay them. Lets say Dak was the 11th best QB (this was last year remember) is he worth top 3 pay? No he isn't based on his play but how easily can you find AND pay a QB in the top 10 that's better than him? That's not going to happen which puzzled me about the way Dallas played that. Same thing here. Can Leonard be better? Sure. Can you replace him easily with someone better and cheaper? Absolutely not.

 

Agree, but I do believe it's very fair for people to question pay. Leonard is my favorite Colts player on D but he's been bad in coverage since his second year.

 

Dak is a QB, so it's different in a lot of ways. A LB is much more devalued. 

 

Both guys are prime examples of salary and timing plus exponential booms.

 

But you did hit on a very discussion and topic worthy debate.... A LB is easily more replaceable than a QB. Leonard is easily top 10 if you look at all the stats.  That's good enough for me if he gets healthy. 

 

 

[philba101]

"I normally don't say any game is a must-win game," Colts linebacker Darius Leonard said Thursday, via The Athletic's Stephen Holder. "But this is a must-win game." Leonard is a top-level competitor who knows what is at stake with this game.

[Nickster]

7 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

I know he did. 

 

Im saying the variety of coverages he played, and the amount of ways he was attacked in coverage, and the amount of pass plays where he was forced to play pass defense, were not nearly what Darius Leonard faces playing in this era.

 

Since Brooks retired, passing is up league wide in rating, completions, attempts, yards, YPA, TDs and interception % has been cut by nearly 30%. The league wide passer rating is up 10 points in the last 10 years. 

 

Brooks was leaving football as the passing game was exploding. In 2010 there had been 2 5k passers in the 90 year history of the league. Marino in 84 and Brees in 08. Since then there have been 10 more. 

 

They also didnt flag you for PI anytime you touched a receiver back then.

Oh so you are talking like comparing out of eras?  Ok.

[AKB]

he does it again

[SteelCityColt]

9 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

he does it again

 

There needs to be an cocktail called Leonard Punch or the like...

 

[Nickster]

10 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

he does it again

Unreal with the FF.  Never seen anything like it.  Lots of people are doing it now.  Just punch and don’t worry about wrapping up so much.  It will bother the purists but shoot it’s probably more dangerous to run v, the Colts than pass.  More likely to fumble than throw a pick.

[Four2itus]

Boy....there is some doozies in here. 

 

 

Here is an update on how DL ranks......

 

 

[Hawkeyecolt]

Leonard is definitely moving better since the bye week. Wish he hadn’t whiffed on the easiest sack he will ever have on the final Raider drive last week.  

[EastStreet]

PFF ranked him the 6th best to start the season. 

PFF now ranks him 5th best.

 

Given his ankle issue to start the season, I'd say that's pretty incredible. 

He's been probably the best turnover machine in the NFL, and not sure it's close. 

I think he's looked more fluid since the break. 

His early comments about focusing on the peanut punch due to his ankle could not have been more meaningful. 

Got to credit him for recognizing that he might be deficient in some areas this season, and needs to be better in others. 

 

Anyway, wow, true warrior playing through all that pain. Hope he gets another clean-up this offseason that works better than last season. Can you imagine him as fast as he was the first few years, on top of the deadly PP. 

[gspdx]

On 10/24/2021 at 10:01 PM, Hawkeyecolt said:

He has been incredible at self promotion.  Good player? Yes.  $20 million a year player and deserving first team all-pro?  No.  Sorry, I think it’s tough for Colts fans to look at things objectively.  He will pad his stats against the Jets and Jags.  Let’s see if he shows up against Tennessee next week.  He was nowhere to be seen last time against them.  I hope he shows up and has a monster game.  

 

Do you really think that Chris "the Scrooge" Ballard would overpay anyone because they can pad their stats and are good at self promotion?  Personally I think lots of these guys are overpaid but that is the price to play!  The option would have been to let him walk because there are plenty of GMs that would have jumped at the chance to have him on their team.