Ellinger Arm strength

[indyagent17]

I don’t know how to add a video but there is one showing him throwing a 77 yd ball. This is been the big knock on him in training camp but he seems to have the arm

 

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/2021/03/07/watch-sam-ehlinger-throws-a-77-yard-bomb/

[DougDew]

The idea is that the QB has to be able to throw with velocity by using a quick release and, importantly, a quick set up.

 

And pure velocity is also diminished if the QB can release the ball with exquisite timing or anticipation.  Its about the ball getting to the receiver quickly, and if the QB can release it a split second quicker via mechanics or set up, or anticipation, than that makes up for fewer mphs of velocity.  Of course, if one of those element is missing on any given throw, it could be pick 6.

 

Like a baseball outfielder, the guy who can read the ball off the bat and can begin immediately running to the spot the ball will be is a better outfielder than the one who lacks that mental talent but has superior footspeed.  Its about being where you need to be when you need to be there more than how its done. 

 

As far as the video, obviously he had to take a bit of a run up but it didn't seem like he was awkwardly chucking it with excessive force.  Pretty smooth form overall.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Does he have as much strength as Rivers? If he does he can probably come in and play ok throwing quick with  anticipation. HC can use his feet better then Rivers.

[Mitch Connors]

The time it takes the ball to travel that distance is more important than the distance thrown. I may very well be able to throw a baseball as far as a few professional baseball players but the big big big difference is my throw looks like a rainbow and takes 3 seconds to get there while there's looks like a bullet and takes 1 second. Those extra 2 seconds in the air are the difference between a single and a double.

The same is true here. Extra hang time on a deep pass allows enough time for a defender to get under the pass and make a play on it. This is why arm strength is so sought after in the NFL. 

[Smonroe]

I was listening to Kevin Bowen and he was talking about Eason's arm.  He did say he's not consistent at this point, pointing out a bad pass in the end zone that should have been picked.

 

Then he said he fired a ball into a tight window to Zak, so hard that he thought most of the other receivers wouldn't have caught it.

 

The window is so much different in pros than in college.  As everyone above has said, it's not distance covered, it's how fast you get that ball there with accuracy.

[csmopar]

Just gonna say this, nearly EVERYONE said Peyton Manning lacked the arm strength to be an NFL Starting QB

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, Smonroe said:

I was listening to Kevin Bowen and he was talking about Eason's arm.  He did say he's not consistent at this point, pointing out a bad pass in the end zone that should have been picked.

 

Then he said he fired a ball into a tight window to Zak, so hard that he thought most of the other receivers wouldn't have caught it.

 

The window is so much different in pros than in college.  As everyone above has said, it's not distance covered, it's how fast you get that ball there with accuracy.

One thing you have to take into consideration here is it’s a practice. They are trying things to see if they work. When it’s game day they will take his strengths to develop a game plan.  
 

Kevin also mentioned how that throw is a asset if used at the right times. Not many QB can do that.

[coltsfan1965]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Just gonna say this, nearly EVERYONE said Peyton Manning lacked the arm strength to be an NFL Startinf QB

There have also been plenty of "cannon" arms which have ended up being nothing. 

[Smonroe]

6 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Just gonna say this, nearly EVERYONE said Peyton Manning lacked the arm strength to be an NFL Startinf QB

 

Not true!  This guy said he had a laser rocket arm!  Not sure what qualifies him to make that judgement, but I trust him.

 

 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Mitch Connors said:

The time it takes the ball to travel that distance is more important than the distance thrown. I may very well be able to throw a baseball as far as a few professional baseball players but the big big big difference is my throw looks like a rainbow and takes 3 seconds to get there while there's looks like a bullet and takes 1 second. Those extra 2 seconds in the air are the difference between a single and a double.

The same is true here. Extra hang time on a deep pass allows enough time for a defender to get under the pass and make a play on it. This is why arm strength is so sought after in the NFL. 

But if that Qb who took one second to throw it 70 yards launched it with the same trajectory as Sam, he would then throw it longer.  If its a pure distance throw...like a golf long distance driving competition, the other Qb should be able to throw it 110 yards then.  

 

What's Sam's trajectory and travel time for a 50 yard NFL throw?  Or more likely a 40 yarder? That hasn't been shown.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

I was listening to Kevin Bowen and he was talking about Eason's arm.  He did say he's not consistent at this point, pointing out a bad pass in the end zone that should have been picked.

 

Then he said he fired a ball into a tight window to Zak, so hard that he thought most of the other receivers wouldn't have caught it.

 

The window is so much different in pros than in college.  As everyone above has said, it's not distance covered, it's how fast you get that ball there with accuracy.

As I explained, if the QB throws the ball to the correct spot that much sooner, then the lack of velocity is compensated in most situation because the ball gets to that spot at the same time as the QB who threw it later but faster.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

As I explained, if the QB throws the ball to the correct spot that much sooner, then the lack of velocity is compensated in most situation because the ball gets to that spot at the same time as the QB who threw it later but faster.

What happens when defenses figure it out and only have to defend half the field?  

[Walkingbear4343]

When his velocity was tested by the same guy.  He tested out among the top quarterbacks. Will have to search for the tweet.  It was before the draft when I saw it. 

[Walkingbear4343]

People are way under estimating Sam’s arm strength. 

[DougDew]

14 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

What happens when defenses figure it out and only have to defend half the field?  

What does that mean, he can only throw in one direction?  I'm not advocating starting him. 

We have a video showing him being able to throw the ball 77 yards with a smooth form, which then somehow leads to a thought that he can't throw it 40 yards to his left in game conditions. 

 

I'd bet half the starting QBs in the NFL would need that trajectory to throw it 77 yards.

[Smonroe]

15 minutes ago, DougDew said:

What does that mean, he can only throw in one direction?  I'm not advocating starting him. 

We have a video showing him being able to throw the ball 77 yards with a smooth form, which then somehow leads to a thought that he can't throw it 40 yards to his left in game conditions. 

 

I'd bet half the starting QBs in the NFL would need that trajectory to throw it 77 yards.

Again, how far you can throw isn’t as important as the velocity.  
 

The receiver separates, the DB reacts when the QB releases.  That ball has to get there faster than the DB.  
 

I know that’s simplistic and the DB isn’t always looking at the QB.  
 

But simply put, the ability of the QB to recognize the right target and his ability to quickly get that ball to him is more important than how far he can throw it.  
 

Maybe we’re saying the same thing.  

[LiveAndLetAddai]

1 hour ago, coltsfan1965 said:

There have also been plenty of "cannon" arms which have ended up being nothing. 

Jeff George comes to mind...

[cdgacoltsfan]

11 minutes ago, WentzinRome said:

Jeff George comes to mind...

Jemarcus Russel could heave it 100 yards.....and he was tall. How did his NFL career pan out?

[DougDew]

10 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Again, how far you can throw isn’t as important as the velocity.  
 

The receiver separates, the DB reacts when the QB releases.  That ball has to get there faster than the DB.  
 

I know that’s simplistic and the DB isn’t always looking at the QB.  
 

But simply put, the ability of the QB to recognize the right target and his ability to quickly get that ball to him is more important than how far he can throw it.  
 

Maybe we’re saying the same thing.  

For the most part.  But a ball is going to travel farther if its traveling at a faster speed, all other things being equal.

 

Yes, the ball needs to get to the point quicker, but this video wasn't about him throwing an NFL pass, it was merely a distance toss.  And I'd say that most NFL QBs could not throw it 77 yards much faster or with a substantially lower arch, JMO.

 

You're right tho, this doesn't speak to how well he would throw an NFL quality 45 yard pass (but seriously, how many times does a Qb throw it 45 yards in the air in a season?).  We need to see how he would throw it 45 yards, or 30 yard deep out,  That is where the combine would have helped and at least where velocity is measured. 

[indyagent17]

All I was saying is that he does have a decent arm. But will see on Sunday and future games how will that translate 

[The Fish]

A part of this calculation has to be that the team is looking at who can the team win with as much as anything else. 

Whomever is better at keeping the offense on schedule is going to get the benefit of the doubt. Now that it's a competition you've gotta give it a week or so, let Sam warm into it a bit.

This preseason game might be kind of interesting-ish. 

[LiveAndLetAddai]

13 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Jemarcus Russel could heave it 100 yards.....and he was tall. How did his NFL career pan out?

Yup, and the list goes on....

[Boondoggle]

4 hours ago, indyagent17 said:

I don’t know how to add a video but there is one showing him throwing a 77 yd ball. This is been the big knock on him in training camp but he seems to have the arm

 

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/2021/03/07/watch-sam-ehlinger-throws-a-77-yard-bomb/

When NFL teams talk about "arm strength" what they're talking about is the deep out and whether you can muscle it out there in a hurry.  This is because the deep out is required to force a team to defend the entire field.  Also that particular part of the field, if you don't have enough arm strength and your ball "floats" there, can result in a pick six in a hurry.  Because of the open field around you when you receive the ball outside the hashes.

 

There's a lot of QBs who can arc the ball deep and let a WR run under it.  That's a whole different animal than throwing that deep out vs a good ballhawking corner.  Also of note is that there's a big difference in a QB who has average arm strength on that throw and a guy like say Mahomes or Stafford throwing it.  Those guys can actually be a bit late on the throw which buys them room for error.

 

So from that perspective Ehlinger basically means a corner outside the hashes can be a little lazy defending that deep out, DCs can play their corners on inside leverage even on downs/distances where the offense will be looking to save clock, and if the QB's arm is suspect enough can even have more room for error on double moves because, well, the safeties will have another step or two to get to the ball as well.

 

I don't know where Ehlinger fits on all that, i.e. how weak exactly his arm might be.  I just know he's not a guy who's gonna gun that out and put fear in corners with that part of the field.  He's gonna see more coverages with the middle blanketed basically.

[DougDew]

One thing here:  Sam is throwing it at an arc that maximizes distance, because that's what this test is.  He doesn't throw it that way because he's Sam, he's throwing like that because physics says that all footballs have to be thrown with an arc line that maximizes distance.  If another QB would try to throw his max distance he would follow physics as well and would use the same path. 

 

So, has Eason ever done a max distance test? Mahomes?  Fields? etc.  If so, how much farther did they throw it than Sam?  I suspect Sams max distance is not that far off from many NFL QBs, who would also be throwing it with the same arc to maximize distance.

 

So I agree with OP, this is encouraging.  And so far all we really have to go on is media reports, and they have not given Sam much of a look before our locals have the past week, so any previous comments about arm strength or zip may simply be lazy cut and paste journalism.

 

We'll see soon.  Reports are probably right, but we'll see. 

[ProblChld32]

8 hours ago, indyagent17 said:

I don’t know how to add a video but there is one showing him throwing a 77 yd ball. This is been the big knock on him in training camp but he seems to have the arm

 

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/2021/03/07/watch-sam-ehlinger-throws-a-77-yard-bomb/

there are QBs who can do this with just a flick of a wrist. He sort of needed a running start to get the momentum build up. He won’t have that opportunity when there are defensive linemen in his face and collapsing the pocket.

[EastStreet]

Arm strength doesn't equate to ability to throw XX yards. It's about velocity. And velocity does not equate to quality placement or success.

 

The bag on SE if I recall correctly is that he floats balls long, and his accuracy hasn't been great long.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Most of you guys are overthinking things, this thread is - Arm strength is overrated, I don't know it all but I do know the 3 most important things for a QB to have are:

 

1. The ability to read defenses

 

2. The ability to change plays at the Line to a correct call that will help the team succeed

 

3. Getting the ball out quickly and accurately on simple 10-15 yard passes to keep the chains moving.

-Peyton did all 3 of these things at a top level throughout his career. Rivers did it last year by completing 68% of passes and reading defenses.

 

It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to know these things. I can name at least 10 QB's that got drafted high in the past and could throw the ball 75-80 yards (that were busts) but if you don't have it between the ears, you will stink in the NFL. 

[jbaron04]

12 hours ago, coltsfan1965 said:

There have also been plenty of "cannon" arms which have ended up being nothing. 

Yup , people fall in love with the arm talent but for get you still have to be accurate and on time ….. that being said there is a good number of the weak arm QBs failing to cause not everyone is gonna prepared like Peyton or as accurate as brees so when they lack that arm talent you have to be excellent in the other areas of the game 

[jbaron04]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Most of you guys are overthinking things, this thread is - Arm strength is overrated, I don't know it all but I do know the 3 most important things for a QB to have are:

 

1. The ability to read defenses

 

2. The ability to change plays at the Line to a correct call that will help the team succeed

 

3. Getting the ball out quickly and accurately on simple 10-15 yard passes to keep the chains moving.

-Peyton did all 3 of these things at a top level throughout his career. Rivers did it last year by completing 68% of passes and reading defenses.

 

It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to know these things. I can name at least 10 QB's that got drafted high in the past and could throw the ball 75-80 yards (that were busts) but if you don't have it between the ears, you will stink in the NFL. 

You can name 10 that got drafted high and was pegged as them smart QBs , I think you can get away with not having arm strength but you can get away with not being on time and accurate, accuracy to me is the most important feature of a qb, then anticipation and being on time , 

[DougDew]

I'll say again, this has little to do with NFL passes.  This is like a simple long drive contest in golf, you use a different swing.  Not the same as driving with more precision.  

 

Apples to Apples: If you asked Mahomes to throw it as far as he could (and I'm not sure Sam even did that because his form was pretty smooth) Mahomes would also want to take steps up to the line and use the maximum arc. 

 

In fact, this is what QBs do when they throw the Hail Mary. 

 

Any QBs throw a Hale Mary 70 yards?.....or does the HC not even try it until about the 50 yard line?

 

What would speak to accuracy would be Sams completion percentage in college.  I'm sure its pretty high.  "Yeah, but the offense was suited to him"

 

Do we judge all QBs by their ability to run a Dan Marino type of passing game, or should we judge our QBs by their ability to run a Frank Reich passing game?  How well does Eason do it?  How well did Luck do it?

 

Still making no predictions.  His ceiling is probably pretty limited. 

[TimetobringDfence!]

17 hours ago, DougDew said:

As I explained, if the QB throws the ball to the correct spot that much sooner, then the lack of velocity is compensated in most situation because the ball gets to that spot at the same time as the QB who threw it later but faster.

To an extent but also creates hangtime 50/50 balls and ints

[Coltsfan98]

Deep balls aren't all about arm strength. The out route is a better indicator of arm strength. When a QB has to sling it to the field side on a rope without much step into it ability. IMO too much is made about arm strength. To me decision making and accuracy are the biggest traits for a QB.

[Boondoggle]

10 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I don't know it all but I do know the 3 most important things for a QB to have are:

 

1. The ability to read defenses

I agree with this.  In today's league getting through reads is the top requirement for a young QB.  It's the first major challenge they need to overcome to get playing time, because it requires a solid grasp of the scheme and an ability to read what the defenses are doing at a basic level at the least.  This takes a while.

 

It's also something that a lot of young QBs cannot overcome.  You're on a timer as a young signal caller.  You're not gonna have forever to develop that part of your game.  Guys who struggle with it end up being dished elsewhere and are looked at as damaged goods with other teams.  Two guys who fit that criteria this offseason are Trubitsky and Goff.  Both those guys are very talented but subpar in their reads.

 

I think Ehlinger has a nice future as a backup QB for this reason.  You're gonna have dropoff to him from your typical starter who is more talented (like Wentz for example).  But if he plays smart and takes care of the football he's gonna be ok at this level even if he doesn't have that ideal arm strength.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Rick Venturi made a good point. Sams arm strength and velocity may not effect him getting down the field but when you get in the red zone where you have to rifle it in with some velocity is where it could hurt because you have to throw it into tight windows.

[King Colt]

Anyone can throw long but hitting a moving target on the fingers is what gets them a contract.

[Blindside]

1 hour ago, Wentzszn said:

Rick Venturi made a good point. Sams arm strength and velocity may not effect him getting down the field but when you get in the red zone where you have to rifle it in with some velocity is where it could hurt because you have to throw it into tight windows.

 

Sam knows he can score with his feet. NFL will be a lot tougher but he did have success in college as a runner.  Jacoby did that for us in the red zone. I see a similar playbook with Sam.  He may not have a rifle arm, but 80% of the time you want touch on the ball. The remaining 20% you give him the green light to keep it or live with the consequences.  Not saying Im rooting for him yet, but Eason has a pretty small window of error at this point. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

30 minutes ago, Blindside said:

 

Sam knows he can score with his feet. NFL will be a lot tougher but he did have success in college as a runner.  Jacoby did that for us in the red zone. I see a similar playbook with Sam.  He may not have a rifle arm, but 80% of the time you want touch on the ball. The remaining 20% you give him the green light to keep it or live with the consequences.  Not saying Im rooting for him yet, but Eason has a pretty small window of error at this point. 

Jacoby threw with a lot of velocity. He was actually good in the red zone throwing the ball. Sam won’t be able to just rely on his feet. Like Rick said the windows in the nfl are a lot smaller mainly due to defensive schemes college defenses usually run. Players are a lot more open in college. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, King Colt said:

Anyone can throw long but hitting a moving target on the fingers is what gets them a contract.

Being able to throw that long with. Flock of the wrist with pressure out face is a whole lot different then having a running stsrt.

[Blindside]

1 hour ago, Wentzszn said:

Jacoby threw with a lot of velocity. He was actually good in the red zone throwing the ball. Sam won’t be able to just rely on his feet. Like Rick said the windows in the nfl are a lot smaller mainly due to defensive schemes college defenses usually run. Players are a lot more open in college. 

I brought up Jacoby because he was brought in when we needed to gain a few yards with his mobility.  It worked pretty well.  If Wentz is limited or does not have the mobility he had before surgery, having a mobile backup like Jacoby to come in and get a couple yards may still be a big part of our offense.  Eason in the Rivers system doesn't make sense but Sam does imo. All hinges on Wentz though.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, Blindside said:

I brought up Jacoby because he was brought in when we needed to gain a few yards with his mobility.  It worked pretty well.  If Wentz is limited or does not have the mobility he had before surgery, having a mobile backup like Jacoby to come in and get a couple yards may still be a big part of our offense.  Eason in the Rivers system doesn't make sense but Sam does imo. All hinges on Wentz though.

Yes that could be a possibility if Wentz is limited. I still think we will keep three QB. But if that could be a deciding factor on who wins the backup job.