Brissett, Mack, or Hooker

[DougDew]

None of the above. 

 

Ballard has treated each of them appropriately this offseason.  The moves that he's made involving/around those players have been spot on, IMO.

[CR91]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

How did Bethea flourish in the same Cover 2 and still use his instincts to close in and make several INTs? 2006, 2007, 2009 - 3 straight years when Colts played Brady (out in 2008), Bethea had key INTs against him in regular season games plus playoff game vs Ravens too in his rookie year. Brady is not an easy guy to pick off.

 

Just saying. 

 

Freeney and Mathis sure helped a lot. Also Bethea was drafted with the idea of playing cover 2. This is entirely new to Hooker.

[Jackie Daytona]

16 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Here we go again.....

 

Why do posters here think they legitimately understand how a player should be used better than the coaches.   People who write this stuff are second guessing the following.....       Chris Ballard,  Matt Eberflus,  Frank Reich. 

 

Why do people do this?    This poster isn't alone.   Other posters have done this,  especially about Hooker.    

 

I wouldn't object if someone posted about not picking up the 5th year option.   That decision has been second guessed across the media.   But how Hooker is used?   I submit there's almost no one here with enough knowledge to fully know whether Hooker is being used correctly or not.   These threads pop up in the off-season when there's less to talk about and this is the worst off-season for that.    So,  here we are...   again

 

Here we go again, with people thinking that NFL personnel are Fail-Safe and have a 100% success rate in putting only the best suited and best fitting players In no e but the most appropriate schemes for their individual skill sets.... and not just this poster, lots of them....why do people do this? Here we are.... Again...

[shakedownstreet]

Here we go again. People are posting on internet message boards. Why do people do this?

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I felt it was a mistake to let him walk, obviously $$$ factors played, but when we had Landry on the roster... eesh.

 

Mike Adams was solid...but Bethea should have played out his career here. He was a rare breed. 

[DougDew]

Bethea left when Irsay wanted a press man 34 defense.  Bethea was a cover 2.  He didn't fit the scheme and had more value elsewhere

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

17 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

Just a armchair GM like the rest of us. All I'm saying is Hooker not allowed to roam has hurt his stock. When he was a lot to roam, QBs hardly threw to him.

Maybe he could have roamed a little bit closer to the Texans wide receivers, especially that Hopkins guy. Would think that we expect more than 1 int and a few broken passes from our top 15 pick a season. But oh boy that 1 pick last year in the first game was a doozy though.

[SteelCityColt]

55 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Bethea left when Irsay wanted a press man 34 defense.  Bethea was a cover 2.  He didn't fit the scheme and had more value elsewhere

 

He went to 3-4 team. I think he would have played just fine, given he had shown his versatility in his time at the Colts alternating between the two safety roles. I'd have taken him over Landry any day of the week.

[chad72]

5 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

He went to 3-4 team. I think he would have played just fine, given he had shown his versatility in his time at the Colts alternating between the two safety roles. I'd have taken him over Landry any day of the week.

 

Didn't the Arizona Cardinals that he went to play a man scheme when Patrick Peterson was in his prime?

[SteelCityColt]

7 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Didn't the Arizona Cardinals that he went to play a man scheme when Patrick Peterson was in his prime?

 

I was thinking more the 49ers, but yeah the Cards too. If memory serves both were playing 3 Safety formations as part of the D too. 

 

Besides he played in a 3-4 here in 2012 and was solid enough given that D was in transition and lacking a lot of key pieces. Bonus is you can name his starting safety partner! 

[Dogg63]

28 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

Besides he played in a 3-4 here in 2012 and was solid enough given that D was in transition and lacking a lot of key pieces. Bonus is you can name his starting safety partner! 

Tom Z(mouthful) who Pagano brought with him from the Ravens.

[Coffeedrinker]

19 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

Just a armchair GM like the rest of us. All I'm saying is Hooker not allowed to roam has hurt his stock. When he was a lot to roam, QBs hardly threw to him.

Hooker is allowed to "roam" in a cover 2, he just has to roam on half the field.  If he cannot do that well, it's not very realistic to think he could cover the entire field any better.

[SteelCityColt]

22 minutes ago, Dogg63 said:

Tom Z(mouthful) who Pagano brought with him from the Ravens.

 

That's the one, interesting character. I can most remember the interception he made, promptly followed by being stripped of the ball...

[chad72]

4 hours ago, DougDew said:

None of the above. 

 

Ballard has treated each of them appropriately this offseason.  The moves that he's made involving/around those players have been spot on, IMO.

 

Hell has frozen over, I had to do a double take to check that it was you that was giving Ballard a nod of "yes". 

[chad72]

June 1st has come and gone and Brissett is still on the roster.

 

I don't see us carrying 4 QBs whatsoever, Brissett, CK and Eason - who is the odd man out here? What was the highest draft pick Ballard has ever let go of in their rookie season?

 

I remember when Polian cut Terrance Taylor, a Round 4 pick.

[w87r]

15 minutes ago, chad72 said:

June 1st has come and gone and Brissett is still on the roster.

 

I don't see us carrying 4 QBs whatsoever, Brissett, CK and Eason - who is the odd man out here? What was the highest draft pick Ballard has ever let go of in their rookie season?

 

I remember when Polian cut Terrance Taylor, a Round 4 pick.

Big Tackle from USC was a 4th round pick. I imagine we wanted to get him to the PS but thag didnt work.

 

That June 1st date doesn't really mean anything. Only thing that means is teams that had a post June 1st cut, prior to June 1st get their savings for said player now.(they can't spend post June 1st cap saving until after June 1st) 

 

We can still release JB and save our $8m+. Probably not going go happen, but June 1st date doesn't have any meaning on it.

[CR91]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Hooker is allowed to "roam" in a cover 2, he just has to roam on half the field.  If he cannot do that well, it's not very realistic to think he could cover the entire field any better.

 

That's not exactly how it works. He's responsible for his zone so even if he wanted to, he can't leave his zone.

[EastStreet]

12 hours ago, Rally5 said:

Following a QB's eyes and "lurking" in college is much different than in the NFL.  Those opportunities are simply not the same.  Pass rush is without question the key to a successful C2 approach, that's a fair point.  Candidly most people don't get good looks at the FS play on game coverage as they are often off-camera, so you have to see the coaches tape to really know. So it's hard to know if people aren't throwing his way, which is an argument I hear as well.  I know this and if you played you'll agree, when my free walks off a grass field in a pristine white uniform after giving up 38 points, I have questions.  To me, he really hasn't been an impactful player and I think Ballard agrees or we would have picked up the option in a heartbeat.  He has this year to show his value, I hope he does.

So you're saying folks that are exceptional in key areas in college don't translate doing the same thing in the NFL.... lol... Sure, some folks bust, but every single player drafted, is drafted thinking they will translate. And especially first round draft picks. And a good part of busts have to do with scheme fit, which is what we are talking about now. And 79 PFF rating in 2018 is not a bust. 69 is really bust either on it's own.

 

It's not hard to know if he's getting thrown at. Even if you can't see him when the play starts, you know where his zone is based on pre snap line up. And you also have easy to find stats. Hooker was only targeted 20 times, giving up 13 catches, or 65%. Willis on the other, who played 170ish less snaps than Hooker, was picked on, targeted 31 times, giving up 27 catches (87%).

 

In short, Hooker was targeted 2.5% of the time he was on the field. Willis was targeted 5% of his snaps, or double that of Hooker.

 

 

[EastStreet]

9 hours ago, shastamasta said:

Interestingly...Hooker was out for that game against KC.

Not really about Hooker. It's about the only game we played a lot of man, and why (OL out, star WR out, QB hobbled). Sucks that Hooker didn't get to play in a game that would likely have given him his best chance to ball out.

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Hooker is allowed to "roam" in a cover 2, he just has to roam on half the field.  If he cannot do that well, it's not very realistic to think he could cover the entire field any better.

That's not roaming. Roaming is center-field, or in press man if the SS needs to bite up on a TE. And C2 isn't always half the back end. It's a third of the field when your MLB drops in coverage (on passing downs, like when they insert Oke). And all year, Hooker was only targeted 20 times (2.5% of his snaps).

[jameszeigler834]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:07 PM, CR91 said:

Who got most spited by the colts this off-season?

 

Brissett was the starting QB and now the colts brought two QBs basically stating he's never starting in Indy again barring injury.

 

Mack coming off a breakout year with over 1100 yards and 8 tds and now he goes into a contract year sharing carries with a RB the colts traded up for.

 

Hooker has been handicapped by a defense that does not take advantage of his best asset and not only did the colts not pick up his option, but they drafted his most likely replacement.

 

Bad colts bad

Hooker has been inconsistent almost his whole career so far and very injury prone so I think them not picking up the option is a challenge for him to do better to one try and stay healthy and 2 play better when he is healthy if not we move on next year as far as Mack goes yes I think he is a good player but I think Taylor gives us the difference maker in the running game that they are lacking plus anytime Mack gets hurt we typically don't do squat running the ball so I cant blame them for taking a chance on Taylor.

[jameszeigler834]

5 hours ago, w87r said:

Big Tackle from USC was a 4th round pick. I imagine we wanted to get him to the PS but thag didnt work.

 

That June 1st date doesn't really mean anything. Only thing that means is teams that had a post June 1st cut, prior to June 1st get their savings for said player now.(they can't spend post June 1st cap saving until after June 1st) 

 

We can still release JB and save our $8m+. Probably not going go happen, but June 1st date doesn't have any meaning on it.

If they released him now it would be screwing him over because any chance to start on a new team by now is about 98 percent out the window and unless Kelly can take over the backup duties and play well if called upon then unfortunately it doesn't benefit the team to cut him cause atleast the first year its best to not play Eason until the team believes he is ready.

[w87r]

9 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

If they released him now it would be screwing him over because any chance to start on a new team by now is about 98 percent out the window and unless Kelly can take over the backup duties and play well if called upon then unfortunately it doesn't benefit the team to cut him cause atleast the first year its best to not play Eason until the team believes he is ready.

I'm not saying we are going to release him. He isn't going anywhere. The team has made that clear.

 

I was just explainig that the June 1st date has nothing to do with it either way.

 

Just explaining the Post June 1st release rules.

[Rally5]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

So you're saying folks that are exceptional in key areas in college don't translate doing the same thing in the NFL.... lol... Sure, some folks bust, but every single player drafted, is drafted thinking they will translate. And especially first round draft picks. And a good part of busts have to do with scheme fit, which is what we are talking about now. And 79 PFF rating in 2018 is not a bust. 69 is really bust either on it's own.

 

It's not hard to know if he's getting thrown at. Even if you can't see him when the play starts, you know where his zone is based on pre snap line up. And you also have easy to find stats. Hooker was only targeted 20 times, giving up 13 catches, or 65%. Willis on the other, who played 170ish less snaps than Hooker, was picked on, targeted 31 times, giving up 27 catches (87%).

 

In short, Hooker was targeted 2.5% of the time he was on the field. Willis was targeted 5% of his snaps, or double that of Hooker.

 

'

You 100% took out of context what I said.  That's the best statistic.  I also didn't compare Hooker to the rookie Willis.  I also didn't call him a bust.  There's absolutely no stat that says busts are scheme fit issues either, you made that up.  Your response is off by a measure of 90% according to my research on smartfan.com.  You don't need to go data mining in search for a winning argument.  Here's all the data you need to know, Hooker needs to play better.

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

You 100% took out of context what I said.  That's the best statistic.  I also didn't compare Hooker to the rookie Willis.  I also didn't call him a bust.  There's absolutely no stat that says busts are scheme fit issues either, you made that up.  Your response is off by a measure of 90% according to my research on smartfan.com.  You don't need to go data mining in search for a winning argument.  Here's all the data you need to know, Hooker needs to play better.

Nobody is saying Hooker doesn't need to play better. I've said it several times. Especially for a 1st rounder.

 

As to the rest of your post... lol

[Rally5]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

That's not roaming. Roaming is center-field, or in press man if the SS needs to bite up on a TE. And C2 isn't always half the back end. It's a third of the field when your MLB drops in coverage (on passing downs, like when they insert Oke). And all year, Hooker was only targeted 20 times (2.5% of his snaps).

 

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Nobody is saying Hooker doesn't need to play better. I've said it several times. Especially for a 1st rounder.

 

As to the rest of your post... lol

Thanks, I thought so too, that top post isn't mine either.  Now, on to better things...

[Coffeedrinker]

17 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

That's not exactly how it works. He's responsible for his zone so even if he wanted to, he can't leave his zone.

True, he's not supposed to leave his zone, but his zone is his half of the field.  And there is really not a lot difference because cover half the field and the entire field as far as the reads, movement.  And quite frankly, in 2019 one of Hooker's biggest issues is he would misread the situation and the receiver routes and often choose wrong.  Since he struggled with that on half the field, I don't see how giving him more field to be responsible for is going to help matters.

[chad72]

13 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

If they released him now it would be screwing him over because any chance to start on a new team by now is about 98 percent out the window and unless Kelly can take over the backup duties and play well if called upon then unfortunately it doesn't benefit the team to cut him cause atleast the first year its best to not play Eason until the team believes he is ready.

 

Based on all these discussions, CK seems to be the odd man out. If we carry 3 QBs, is there a point in carrying a PS QB?

[Coffeedrinker]

15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

That's not roaming. Roaming is center-field, or in press man if the SS needs to bite up on a TE. And C2 isn't always half the back end. It's a third of the field when your MLB drops in coverage (on passing downs, like when they insert Oke). And all year, Hooker was only targeted 20 times (2.5% of his snaps).

Actually a C2 it is the deep halves, if the LB drops then it's a Tampa2 type D which is a Cover2/Cover3 hybrid..  that a lot of lazy people just call a cover 2 type D.\  I'm not going to argue with your limited definition of roaming.

[Nesjan3]

Honestly Taylor will be great for Mack, i can see Mack starting all 16 games this year because he won't have such a large load anymore. 

 

Lets face it Hooker hasn't lived up to being an early first round pick. Great in coverage and yes our defense doesn't exactly let him do what he is great at, but he doesn't tackle well and misses assignments regularly.

 

Brissett just flat out sucked , i read a stat somewhere and no i don't have a link just google it but our passing stats were some of the worst since 2000. He had a chance, didn't prove he was a starter simple, is that spiting him, maybe.

[w87r]

13 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Based on all these discussions, CK seems to be the odd man out. If we carry 3 QBs, is there a point in carrying a PS QB?

Main reason to carry CK on the practice squad, is to try and keep him learning another year and bring him back in 2021. Assuming Rivers comes back and JB is gone. If Rivers and JB are both gone it would be nice to have a guy who's been in our system for couple years

 

Keeping him on PS would mean our QB room in 2021 would be in good shape.

 

Best case:

Rivers, Eason, Kelly

 

Worst case:

Eason, Kelly

 

Assuming no one scoops him off the PS.

[DougDew]

15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

So you're saying folks that are exceptional in key areas in college don't translate doing the same thing in the NFL.... lol... Sure, some folks bust, but every single player drafted, is drafted thinking they will translate. And especially first round draft picks. And a good part of busts have to do with scheme fit, which is what we are talking about now. And 79 PFF rating in 2018 is not a bust. 69 is really bust either on it's own.

 

It's not hard to know if he's getting thrown at. Even if you can't see him when the play starts, you know where his zone is based on pre snap line up. And you also have easy to find stats. Hooker was only targeted 20 times, giving up 13 catches, or 65%. Willis on the other, who played 170ish less snaps than Hooker, was picked on, targeted 31 times, giving up 27 catches (87%).

 

In short, Hooker was targeted 2.5% of the time he was on the field. Willis was targeted 5% of his snaps, or double that of Hooker.

 

 

Couple of things: 

 

QBs are going to tend to target the shorter passes over the longer passes simply because those are easier completions because of simple distance.  I would think that a SS would have to be really really good and the deeper safety really bad in order for the targets to even out, all other thing being equal.

 

Also, when comparing targets between two players, it can say that Willis was really bad, not that Hooker was really good.  NFL will always pick on the weak sister, so that player may always get targeted more than the other player, and that limits the effectiveness of using comparative stats as a way of determining quality of the player.

[CR91]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

True, he's not supposed to leave his zone, but his zone is his half of the field.  And there is really not a lot difference because cover half the field and the entire field as far as the reads, movement.  And quite frankly, in 2019 one of Hooker's biggest issues is he would misread the situation and the receiver routes and often choose wrong.  Since he struggled with that on half the field, I don't see how giving him more field to be responsible for is going to help matters.

 

Again not exactly. He's not covering half the field. More like a third. Problem is he can't move until the ball is thrown. He has to wait and react to the QB. Cover 2 basically is keeping everything in front of you so you're not gonna get many opportunities to make plays on the ball because QBs are too good dissecting zones especially if your pass rush doesn't get home

[Dingus McGirt]

23 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

He went to 3-4 team. I think he would have played just fine, given he had shown his versatility in his time at the Colts alternating between the two safety roles. I'd have taken him over Landry any day of the week.

But Landry was so...buff.

[SteelCityColt]

3 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

But Landry was so...buff.

 

 

Always this picture...

 

By accident it lead me to finding this video, actually not a bad watch:

 

 

[ProblChld32]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:07 PM, CR91 said:

Who got most spited by the colts this off-season?

 

Brissett was the starting QB and now the colts brought two QBs basically stating he's never starting in Indy again barring injury.

 

Mack coming off a breakout year with over 1100 yards and 8 tds and now he goes into a contract year sharing carries with a RB the colts traded up for.

 

Hooker has been handicapped by a defense that does not take advantage of his best asset and not only did the colts not pick up his option, but they drafted his most likely replacement.

 

Bad colts bad

I would have to say Brisett, they doubled down on the QB position twice. Once in FA and then again in the draft.

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Actually a C2 it is the deep halves, if the LB drops then it's a Tampa2 type D which is a Cover2/Cover3 hybrid..  that a lot of lazy people just call a cover 2 type D.\  I'm not going to argue with your limited definition of roaming.

T2 is a combo/cross of C2/C3. We use it on 3rd and longs typically. It's just another subpackage to our base C2.

 

You don't have to argue. Staying in a zone isn't roaming. C1 or man what most would consider "roaming" or "lurking". A FS in a C1 scheme almost always purely reacting to the play, instead of having a man, or a zone assignment. 

 

Point is, Hooker came from a press man system in college where he could freely roam. He was considered the ultimate lurker by a lot of the talking heads. Now he's confined to one of 2 or 3 zones depending on the call, and is more "help" than play maker.

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, DougDew said:

Couple of things: 

 

QBs are going to tend to target the shorter passes over the longer passes simply because those are easier completions because of simple distance.  I would think that a SS would have to be really really good and the deeper safety really bad in order for the targets to even out, all other thing being equal.

 

Also, when comparing targets between two players, it can say that Willis was really bad, not that Hooker was really good.  NFL will always pick on the weak sister, so that player may always get targeted more than the other player, and that limits the effectiveness of using comparative stats as a way of determining quality of the player.

In our C2, or even when we're playing T2, the SS has more or less the same coverage responsibility or zone as the FS. There is no deep or shallow S so to speak. Of course they will react to what happens, but zone responsibilities are the same unless their is a "call" for a play that takes them out of their base responsibilities.

 

But yes, QBs will pick on the weaker. That's part of the game. But a high differential between the two speaks to level of weak. Nobody is saying Hooker was really good last year. Some are suggesting however he'd be better given the opportunity to play more C1.