Its True, It Was Not About Money

[chad72]

http://profootballta...-in-dead-money/

His 2012 cap hit would have been $17 mil.

His 2012 dead space cap hit is $10.4 mil.

The net savings is $6.6 mil. only

Did I get that right?

[UndecidedFrog]

http://profootballta...-in-dead-money/

His 2012 cap hit would have been $17 mil.

His 2012 dead space cap hit is $10.4 mil.

The net savings is $6.6 mil. only

Did I get that right?

Yes, you got that right.

What you left out however, is that the above is just for 2012.

2013 cap hit would have been $18MM

2014 cap hit would have been $19MM

2015 cap hit would have been $20MM.

All assuming PM played out his contract.

The dead cap space for 2013, 2014, 2015 are now 0.

[Warhorse]

But there is so much to be angry about! Lol.

[CR91]

Yes, you got that right.

What you left out however, is that the above is just for 2012.

2013 cap hit would have been $18MM

2014 cap hit would have been $19MM

2015 cap hit would have been $20MM.

All assuming PM played out his contract.

The dead cap space for 2013, 2014, 2015 are now 0.

so lets say we let reggie, garcon, saturday, and brackett go. how much cap space do we have for free agents

[UndecidedFrog]

so lets say we let reggie, garcon, saturday, and brackett go. how much cap space do we have for free agents

Since Reggie, Garcon and Saturday are FAs, you gain nothing by letting them go. As far as the 2012 cap is concerned, they are already gone. If you want to keep any of them, that would just add to the cap.

Brackett is the only one of the above that is still under contract in 2012. Cutting him would mean a net $0.2MM savings to the cap due to the fact that he is in the 3rd year of a 5 year contract. Cutting him will accelerate the 3rd, 4th and 5th year pro-rations of his signing bonus forward. If you kept him for 2012, his hit to the cap will be $7.4MM. Cutting him with the accelerated bonus pieces charges the cap at $7.2MM. So, for 2012, you would save a net of $0.2MM.

Going forward, you wouldn't have to pay his 2012, 2013 and 2014 salaries that total $18.2MM.

Brackett's contract in terms of cap accounting:

2010: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $0.8MM = $3.2MM

2011: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $2.0MM = $4.4MM

2012: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $5.0MM = $7.4MM

2013: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $6.6MM = $9.0MM

2014: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $6.6MM = $9.0MM

Totals: $33MM / 5 years / $12MM signing bonus.

Currently, after cutting Manning, and re-signing Mathis, and allowing for Luck/RG3, we have about $17MM to spend on FAs.

Cutting Brackett will add $0.2MM to that.

[CR91]

Since Reggie, Garcon and Saturday are FAs, you gain nothing by letting them go. As far as the 2012 cap is concerned, they are already gone. If you want to keep any of them, that would just add to the cap.

Brackett is the only one of the above that is still under contract in 2012. Cutting him would mean a net $0.2MM savings to the cap due to the fact that he is in the 3rd year of a 5 year contract. Cutting him will accelerate the 3rd, 4th and 5th year pro-rations of his signing bonus forward. If you kept him for 2012, his hit to the cap will be $7.4MM. Cutting him with the accelerated bonus pieces charges the cap at $7.2MM.

would we get picks for reggie and everyone else if they sign elsewhere. and also do we have room in our cap to make moves in fa

[Jaric]

Since Reggie, Garcon and Saturday are FAs, you gain nothing by letting them go. As far as the 2012 cap is concerned, they are already gone. If you want to keep any of them, that would just add to the cap.

Brackett is the only one of the above that is still under contract in 2012. Cutting him would mean a net $0.2MM savings to the cap due to the fact that he is in the 3rd year of a 5 year contract. Cutting him will accelerate the 3rd, 4th and 5th year pro-rations of his signing bonus forward. If you kept him for 2012, his hit to the cap will be $7.4MM. Cutting him with the accelerated bonus pieces charges the cap at $7.2MM.

How much would that save in years 4 and 5? (if you don't mind)

[FireJimCaldwell]

How much would that save in years 4 and 5? (if you don't mind)

It would depend on when Brackett is cut.

If he's cut today, then UF is most likely correct unless determined that Brackett were to be treated as a June 1 casualty.

If he's a June 1 cut his #'s would be:

2,400,000.00 2012 Dead Cap Space

4,800,000.00 2013 Dead Cap Space

His cap #'s if he's on the roster are as follows:

2012 $ 7,400,000.00

2013 $ 9,000,000.00

2014 $ 9,000,000.00

So treating him as a 6/1 cut would clear

5 million of space in 2012,

4.2 million of space in 2013, and

9 million of space in 2014.

Cutting him now with out treating him as a 6/1 cut would clear

200k in 2012,

9million in 2013 and 2014 respectively.

[UndecidedFrog]

would we get picks for reggie and everyone else if they sign elsewhere. and also do we have room in our cap to make moves in fa

The team may get compensatory picks, depending on how many FAs we pick up that net against the FAs we lose. And the NFL proprietary formula used to determine compensatory picks also weighs in the quality of those FAs lost versus gained.

Yes we currently have about $17MM to make moves in FA.

[CR91]

The team may get compensatory picks, depending on how many FAs we pick up that net against the FAs we lose. And the NFL proprietary formula used to determine compensatory picks also weighs in the quality of those FAs lost versus gained.

alright thanks for answering my question

[UndecidedFrog]

How much would that save in years 4 and 5? (if you don't mind)

As FJC showed, cutting him before the 2012 seasons starts, either now, or after June 1, you would save his base salaries in 2012, 2013, 2014 = $18.2MM

In cap structure distribution, the timing of the cut makes a difference as FJC showed. The total is the same.

[Fx Stryker]

I don't think it was ever about money. Mr Irsay went all fan boy on Luck just like others.

[jemack]

It's not about the money because both sides were willing to negotiate.......... until they landed the 1st pick, Irsay told PM that the colts were going to rebuild and convinced him to glorify his career with a team that can get him to the promised land...........

Oh! But I digress

[unitas-we-stand]

as i have been telling others on forums peyton deserves to have what he wants. he would have preferred to stay a colt but also would rather be sure of wins. ive been a colts fan for a long time and i can see we are headed towards another slump because irsay wants to bring in a whole lot of new young talent. and if we could get over losing manning we would realize that manning doesnt deserve to sit on a bench behind some kid hes had to train with the caliper of his game. he deserves to win

[deedub75]

Since Reggie, Garcon and Saturday are FAs, you gain nothing by letting them go. As far as the 2012 cap is concerned, they are already gone. If you want to keep any of them, that would just add to the cap.

Brackett is the only one of the above that is still under contract in 2012. Cutting him would mean a net $0.2MM savings to the cap due to the fact that he is in the 3rd year of a 5 year contract. Cutting him will accelerate the 3rd, 4th and 5th year pro-rations of his signing bonus forward. If you kept him for 2012, his hit to the cap will be $7.4MM. Cutting him with the accelerated bonus pieces charges the cap at $7.2MM. So, for 2012, you would save a net of $0.2MM.

Going forward, you wouldn't have to pay his 2012, 2013 and 2014 salaries that total $18.2MM.

Brackett's contract in terms of cap accounting:

2010: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $0.8MM = $3.2MM

2011: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $2.0MM = $4.4MM

2012: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $5.0MM = $7.4MM

2013: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $6.6MM = $9.0MM

2014: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $6.6MM = $9.0MM

Totals: $33MM / 5 years / $12MM signing bonus.

Currently, after cutting Manning, and re-signing Mathis, and allowing for Luck/RG3, we have about $17MM to spend on FAs.

Cutting Brackett will add $0.2MM to that.

$17MM left? Someone's check is gonna bounce!

[UndecidedFrog]

$17MM left? Someone's check is gonna bounce!

What do you mean?

[Superman]

http://profootballta...-in-dead-money/

His 2012 cap hit would have been $17 mil.

His 2012 dead space cap hit is $10.4 mil.

The net savings is $6.6 mil. only

Did I get that right?

The cap hit doesn't matter. The $28 million check that Irsay doesn't have to make out to Peyton Manning does.

[21isSuperman]

Yes, you got that right.

What you left out however, is that the above is just for 2012.

2013 cap hit would have been $18MM

2014 cap hit would have been $19MM

2015 cap hit would have been $20MM.

All assuming PM played out his contract.

The dead cap space for 2013, 2014, 2015 are now 0.

Exactly, that's where the real cap savings are

[Malakai432]

I don't think it was about one factor. I think it was a culmination of factor(S)......... It took a perfect storm of epic proportions for this to happen including surgery, a bad coaching staff, aging management, lack of team talent, $, a bad record, and a great QB prospect being available.

I'm sure there are even more than that.....

[Superman]

It would depend on when Brackett is cut.

If he's cut today, then UF is most likely correct unless determined that Brackett were to be treated as a June 1 casualty.

If he's a June 1 cut his #'s would be:

2,400,000.00 2012 Dead Cap Space

4,800,000.00 2013 Dead Cap Space

His cap #'s if he's on the roster are as follows:

2012 $ 7,400,000.00

2013 $ 9,000,000.00

2014 $ 9,000,000.00

So treating him as a 6/1 cut would clear

5 million of space in 2012,

4.2 million of space in 2013, and

9 million of space in 2014.

Cutting him now with out treating him as a 6/1 cut would clear

200k in 2012,

9million in 2013 and 2014 respectively.

Much more important than the 2012 cap hit (at least to me) is a) the $5 million salary Brackett is due in 2012 (real money that can be moved around to pay other players), and b) the $9 million cap hit in 2013 and 2014. It makes a ton of sense to cut him now, seeing as how he's been riding the bench the past two years, and the savings in the final two years of his deal are huge. I always thought the contract was designed to be addressed this offseason anyways, and that's before he missed significant time the last two seasons.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Much more important than the 2012 cap hit (at least to me) is a) the $5 million salary Brackett is due in 2012 (real money that can be moved around to pay other players), and b) the $9 million cap hit in 2013 and 2014. It makes a ton of sense to cut him now, seeing as how he's been riding the bench the past two years, and the savings in the final two years of his deal are huge. I always thought the contract was designed to be addressed this offseason anyways, and that's before he missed significant time the last two seasons.

I believe one strategy that the Colts should consider is moving on from a lot of the higher dollar players that aren't in the 3-5 year plan. Move them now via trade or cut them. Eat the cap this year. Take the lumps, and then start building for the future.

2012 contracts for free agents would be tricky to a point, but it can be worked out where they get a guaranteed bonus next year to offset the dead space that would be in place this year but not next.

[shakedownstreet]

[Superman]

I believe one strategy that the Colts should consider is moving on from a lot of the higher dollar players that aren't in the 3-5 year plan. Move them now via trade or cut them. Eat the cap this year. Take the lumps, and then start building for the future.

2012 contracts for free agents would be tricky to a point, but it can be worked out where they get a guaranteed bonus next year to offset the dead space that would be in place this year but not next.

Problem is, they know (and their agents know) that we will cut them if they get hurt or fail to perform, rather than pay that bonus. And there are a lot of teams with a lot of cap space and real money savings from not spending at or near the cap over the last five seasons (Jaguars, Bucs, etc.) For an extra $5 million signing bonus upfront and maybe an extra $1 million base salary in the first couple of years, they'll go to another team, even if that team sucks. Because we suck too, at least right now.

I don't think we should be looking to get rid of players just because they're high money, because good players cost a lot of money anymore. That's the cost of doing business. And starting in 2013, you have to spend 95% of the cap. So it makes no sense to get rid of good players because we don't want to pay them, when we're going to have to pay someone no matter what in a year. Keep your good players, if it makes money sense for you. Like Mathis: it makes sense to keep Mathis at $9 million/year, because he's a top level pass rusher and he's only 31. It would make less sense to keep Freeney at $12 million/year, even though he's better, because he's 32 and would cost more.

And then there's the replaceability factor, which means it makes zero sense to pay Clark, Brackett, Bullitt and Addai a total of $15 million in base salaries this season when they are all readily replaceable at this point. It makes more sense to pay Vinatieri $2.7 million, even though he'll turn 40 this season, because he's one of the best kickers in the league, is still performing at a high level, and it would cost that much to replace him with another really good kicker. You could a) draft a rookie and pay him about 1/6 of that amount, or b) draft a punter and move McAfee to kicker. But you're likely to have a significant performance drop-off with either of those two scenarios. If you're willing to eat that because you don't think we have a chance to win very many games in 2012, then okay, especially because AV only has a couple years left. But if you want to have a good kicker, you pay AV what he's worth.

So with guys who aren't pulling their weight or are easy to replace, yeah, you jettison them and eat the dead cap penalties this season. But for guys who are legitimate factors and are critical to any success you hope to have now or in the future, keep them. They can be foundational guys for the next three or four years, at least. Like Mathis.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Problem is, they know (and their agents know) that we will cut them if they get hurt or fail to perform, rather than pay that bonus. And there are a lot of teams with a lot of cap space and real money savings from not spending at or near the cap over the last five seasons (Jaguars, Bucs, etc.) For an extra $5 million signing bonus upfront and maybe an extra $1 million base salary in the first couple of years, they'll go to another team, even if that team sucks. Because we suck too, at least right now.

I don't think we should be looking to get rid of players just because they're high money, because good players cost a lot of money anymore. That's the cost of doing business. And starting in 2013, you have to spend 95% of the cap. So it makes no sense to get rid of good players because we don't want to pay them, when we're going to have to pay someone no matter what in a year. Keep your good players, if it makes money sense for you. Like Mathis: it makes sense to keep Mathis at $9 million/year, because he's a top level pass rusher and he's only 31. It would make less sense to keep Freeney at $12 million/year, even though he's better, because he's 32 and would cost more.

And then there's the replaceability factor, which means it makes zero sense to pay Clark, Brackett, Bullitt and Addai a total of $15 million in base salaries this season when they are all readily replaceable at this point. It makes more sense to pay Vinatieri $2.7 million, even though he'll turn 40 this season, because he's one of the best kickers in the league, is still performing at a high level, and it would cost that much to replace him with another really good kicker. You could a) draft a rookie and pay him about 1/6 of that amount, or b) draft a punter and move McAfee to kicker. But you're likely to have a significant performance drop-off with either of those two scenarios. If you're willing to eat that because you don't think we have a chance to win very many games in 2012, then okay, especially because AV only has a couple years left. But if you want to have a good kicker, you pay AV what he's worth.

So with guys who aren't pulling their weight or are easy to replace, yeah, you jettison them and eat the dead cap penalties this season. But for guys who are legitimate factors and are critical to any success you hope to have now or in the future, keep them. They can be foundational guys for the next three or four years, at least. Like Mathis.

That's what i meant it would have to be tricky. It would have to be guaranteed vs. injury and performance to get them to "do us a favor" for 2012 if we were having issues. It's risky, but what contract isn't in this sport.

I'm looking at it more as an approach that if in 3 years they aren't going to be here... might as well move on to someone that will.

[Gavin]

is Brackett really worth that 33 million, personally Id go with Angerer

[Gavin]

you really think Manning would have sat behind a rookie when hes still capable of playing? he wouldnt even let backups practice with the first team, I know he has done alot for the city and franchise but business is business, if he really wanted to stay around he could have reworked a deal, ya know he has made more then enough money ( more then any of us put together on this board will ever see, he would be here if he really wanted, he wants the money, no one can tell me if he was here we would be a losing team, cause we wouldnt hes proven that for 14 years, he left cause of money its that simple

[bayone]

http://profootballta...-in-dead-money/

His 2012 cap hit would have been $17 mil.

His 2012 dead space cap hit is $10.4 mil.

The net savings is $6.6 mil. only

Did I get that right?

His 2012 cap hit would have been $17 mil.

His 2012 dead space cap hit is $10.6 mil.

The net savings is $6.4 mil. only this year,

UPDATE 5:10 p.m. ET: The contract shows that the Colts absorbed a $5.6 million cap charge in 2011, representing one-fifth of the $28 million option bonus that never was paid. So they’ll get a credit against the $16 million acceleration, making the net cap hit $10.6 million.

next few years will be alot though as stated elswhere

[04DarkShadowGT]

Since Reggie, Garcon and Saturday are FAs, you gain nothing by letting them go. As far as the 2012 cap is concerned, they are already gone. If you want to keep any of them, that would just add to the cap.

Brackett is the only one of the above that is still under contract in 2012. Cutting him would mean a net $0.2MM savings to the cap due to the fact that he is in the 3rd year of a 5 year contract. Cutting him will accelerate the 3rd, 4th and 5th year pro-rations of his signing bonus forward. If you kept him for 2012, his hit to the cap will be $7.4MM. Cutting him with the accelerated bonus pieces charges the cap at $7.2MM. So, for 2012, you would save a net of $0.2MM.

Going forward, you wouldn't have to pay his 2012, 2013 and 2014 salaries that total $18.2MM.

Brackett's contract in terms of cap accounting:

2010: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $0.8MM = $3.2MM

2011: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $2.0MM = $4.4MM

2012: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $5.0MM = $7.4MM

2013: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $6.6MM = $9.0MM

2014: $2.4MM pro-rated portion of signing bonus ($12/5) + salary of $6.6MM = $9.0MM

Totals: $33MM / 5 years / $12MM signing bonus.

Currently, after cutting Manning, and re-signing Mathis, and allowing for Luck/RG3, we have about $17MM to spend on FAs.

Cutting Brackett will add $0.2MM to that.

I almost think you have to do it now, I know you dont save much this year, but it frees up quite a bit going forward. As it sits now the Colts are going ot be tight to the cap this year, but they could really clear some major room to reload in free agency in 2013 by cleaning out some space right now.

We arent going to have a great year next season anyway, why not get a lot of the pain out of the way in Luck year 1. That allows you to have two down years and then really start kicking butt getting new players that fit your scheme. Plus you would get another very high pick in the 2013 draft, you could use that on a great WR, CB, OL, whatever.

[wercolts]

Money was one of the "circumstances" they kept referring to in the presser. It wasn't weighted nearly as heavy as the other circumstances but plays a role in the biggest issue, that being the best long term interest of the team.

[Jaric]

Dear God, whose idea was it to pay Captain Average 9 million dollars a year?

[Jaric]

is Brackett really worth that 33 million, personally Id go with Angerer

No, not even close. Whoever inked that contract should be fired immediately.

Wait, they already have...

[Jaric]

I believe one strategy that the Colts should consider is moving on from a lot of the higher dollar players that aren't in the 3-5 year plan. Move them now via trade or cut them. Eat the cap this year. Take the lumps, and then start building for the future.

2012 contracts for free agents would be tricky to a point, but it can be worked out where they get a guaranteed bonus next year to offset the dead space that would be in place this year but not next.

Would that include Freeney? I'm torn what to do with him. If we just let him go next season when his contracts up, we might get a decent comp pick out of it. Of course if we cut him now we save like 14/15 million towards this years cap and lord knows we have holes that money could be spent on.

[TennEngr]

Was the title " ... It Was Not About Money" from the Colts perspective or Peyton Manning's perspective? On both sides it was about money and circumstances (see Malakai432). Circumstances provided the Colts an opportunity to get Andrew Luck and get rid of paying a lot of money to a "hurt" Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning would most likely have to take a severe pay cut to be resigned by the Colts and why would he do this if he could still play. Peyton now has the opportunity to play for a team that may be able to win a Super Bowl.

It will be hard not seeing Peyton in a Colts uniform but the opportunity was their for both the Colts and Peyton. They BOTH took it!

[subvet]

Yes, you got that right.

What you left out however, is that the above is just for 2012.

2013 cap hit would have been $18MM

2014 cap hit would have been $19MM

2015 cap hit would have been $20MM.

All assuming PM played out his contract.

The dead cap space for 2013, 2014, 2015 are now 0.

?Except when they cut him and if he signed a new contract these numbers would be void so how is it not about money?.

[UndecidedFrog]

?Except when they cut him and if he signed a new contract these numbers would be void so how is it not about money?.

??? Are you confusing me with the OP?

My post that you quoted shows exactly why money was an issue.

[subvet]

??? Are you confusing me with the OP?

My post that you quoted shows exactly why money was an issue.

Obviously I don't understand because if he was cut, the old contract is voided and numbers go to zero, right or wrong?

[subvet]

I misread your reply, disregard the previous statement.

[Mameluc]

its been a long time since i have disagreed with chad, but i think this has everything to do with money and cap space. maybe they dont save cap space this year, but the next 4 years you are going to see an insane amount of $$ saved from parting ways with manning.

[UndecidedFrog]

I misread your reply, disregard the previous statement.

You must not like the way I post.

I really do prefer the reader to come to their own conclusions based on the facts I present.

I tend not to point out the logical conclusion in my post because I feel like that would be too antagonistic, especially if it contradicts someone else's point of view.

[Mameluc]

someone who knows cap? frog for example lol

how much we save the next years now that manning's contract has been terminated?