Jacksonville (+7.5) at New England (1-21-18)

[IcyRhythms]

Just now, bluebombers87 said:

They virtually all contributed to winning playoff games. Can’t make the playoffs without winning regular season.

 

Manning couldn’t fall back on his defense or his genius coach like Brady could/did. Brady might read defenses but Manning was the O coordinator. He ran the show. McDaniels and Weiss get a lot of credit in NE. I’m not trying to knock Brady but when it comes to football IQ Manning takes the cake.

Yeah. When you look back on it, more was asked of Manning than has ever been asked of Brady. When Belichick and guys like McDaniels are gone, they'll blame his age. But right now? They're saying "OMG HE'S INCREDIBLE. HE'll PLAY LIKE THIS UNTIL HE'S 45!"

 

What a joke

[bluebombers87]

13 minutes ago, will426 said:

You’re right but you have a super team either way  what have the Niners done since the cap got introduced nada 

And the other teams can have “super teams” too. Wasn’t just the Niners. Also, and I can’t stress this enough, it was so much harder for QBs to move the ball back then.

[DoctorHver]

40 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Lol I'm convinced that's why Brady is sticking around. Catch mvps and records. I wear my colts gear with pride. But I wanna throw up whenever I see a pats logo. Especially tonight. This isn't healthy

 

The guy has some serious inferiority complex if he is only sticking around to pad the stats. 

[will426]

19 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

They virtually all contributed to winning playoff games. Can’t make the playoffs without winning regular season.

 

Manning couldn’t fall back on his defense or his genius coach like Brady could/did. Brady might read defenses but Manning was the O coordinator. He ran the show. McDaniels and Weiss get a lot of credit in NE. I’m not trying to knock Brady but when it comes to football IQ Manning takes the cake.

I’m not saying they’re equal in reading defenses manning is better for sure and yes McDaniels runs the show but Brady still has to Play and he does audible as well just not the way manning did. And also yes Brady had the better team but manning has thrown some nonsense in crunch time when he could have actually won special games 

[bluebombers87]

Just now, will426 said:

I’m not saying they’re equal in reading defenses manning is better for sure and yes McDaniels runs the show but Brady still has to Play and he does audible as well just not the way manning did. And also yes Brady had the better team but manning has thrown some nonsense in crunch time when he could have actually won special games 

I’d be careful bringing up garbage time stats. Brady and the Pats are the queens of running up the score in garbage time.

[will426]

20 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

And the other teams can have “super teams” too. Wasn’t just the Niners. Also, and I can’t stress this enough, it was so much harder for QBs to move the ball back then.

Yeah I agree with you the Niners and the Cowboys has super teams when the cap wasn’t the issue it was harder but the talent on those teams were definitely good enough to withstand those freelancing rules. Both those teams have been garbage since then

[bluebombers87]

1 minute ago, will426 said:

Yeah I agree with you the Niners and the Cowboys has super teams when the cap wasn’t the issue it was harder but the talent on those teams were definitely good enough to withstand those freelancing rules. Both those teams have been garbage since then

So has the Bears defense. What’s your point? The rule affected everyone. 

[wizwor]

It's amazing to me what people think contributes to greatness.  To have a fourth quarter comeback, you have to be behind after three quarters.  What's so great about being behind after three quarters a lot?  To win a Superbowl with two teams, you have to be let go by the first team you won with.  Again, what is so great about that?  I think it is amusing that people in the peanut gallery think they know about how much a quarterback and coach contribute to planning and reaction.  I watch a lot of football and most of the time I do not know if the guy who looked bad was really at fault -- it's a complicated TEAM sport. Of course there are the salary cap and other era arguments.  I guess it's fun to debate all of this stuff ad nauseam, BUT it has been fun watching a perennial celller dweller rise to be the cream of the NFL after a FAN took over a team which was headed out of town.  Whether the statistics constitute GOAT status or are just an interesting story for the Hall of Fame, who can say.  I think Kraft, Belichick, and Brady are something rare.  What happened against Atlanta was rare and what happened tonight was rare -- QB with injured throwing hand coming back without the best TE in football.  I do not know how you can dismiss that.  The game was great, the team is great, and we will do this all again next year with a new OC and DC.

[will426]

13 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

I’d be careful bringing up garbage time stats. Brady and the Pats are the queens of running up the score in garbage time.

What do you mean? The Seattle super bowl...Brady leads them to take the lead ( don’t bring up the Seattle interception)...falcons bowl game..Brady leads the epic 4th qtr comeback Win...today vs the jags Brady leads them to victory to go to the Super Bowl..in playoff games how many clutch situations has manning had that Mattered and Won compared to Brady. I mean manning has had “some” as well just not as many in playoff games that mattered is all I’m saying he’s been the reason for some of his clutch failures 

[will426]

15 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

So has the Bears defense. What’s your point? The rule affected everyone. 

Point is this era cap matters and Brady has managed to continue to make it to bowl games with or without the talent that all those teams had in the era where Cap wasn’t a factor. 

[bluebombers87]

19 minutes ago, will426 said:

What do you mean? The Seattle super bowl...Brady leads them to take the lead ( don’t bring up the Seattle interception)...falcons bowl game..Brady leads the epic 4th qtr comeback Win...today vs the jags Brady leads them to victory to go to the Super Bowl..in playoff games how many clutch situations has manning had that Mattered and Won compared to Brady. I mean manning has had “some” as well just not as many in playoff games that mattered is all I’m saying he’s been the reason for some of his clutch failures 

Brady has one major comeback win against the Falcons. Brady’s defense (yet again) won the Seattle game with that pick. Manning has the 2006 AFC championship game to counter that. Also the 2015 AFC championship game against the Pats.

[bluebombers87]

22 minutes ago, will426 said:

What do you mean? The Seattle super bowl...Brady leads them to take the lead ( don’t bring up the Seattle interception)...falcons bowl game..Brady leads the epic 4th qtr comeback Win...today vs the jags Brady leads them to victory to go to the Super Bowl..in playoff games how many clutch situations has manning had that Mattered and Won compared to Brady. I mean manning has had “some” as well just not as many in playoff games that mattered is all I’m saying he’s been the reason for some of his clutch failures 

And I mean in 2007 (the only year Brady could muster Manning-like numbers was with Randy Moss and thy ran up the score quite a bit. They still do. They don’t often pull starters.

[bluebombers87]

21 minutes ago, will426 said:

Point is this era cap matters and Brady has managed to continue to make it to bowl games with or without the talent that all those teams had in the era where Cap wasn’t a factor. 

We were talking about Montana and how you say his accomplishments (not losing a SB unlike Brady; playing absolute lights out unlike Brady) mean less because everyone was playing by the same rules?

 

You say we can’t compare the two eras (I agree because it was enormously more difficult to play QB in that era) but then you go and compare the two?

[chad72]

Once they let Brady convert that 3rd and 18 to Amendola, I knew it was over. You have to make plays vs Brady for 60 minutes, when will teams learn that? Ds that get stops vs Brady do not get stuck in the "oh, you cannot blitz Brady, he will eat you alive" cliche. You can blitz Brady, just have to be timely. Our 4th & 2 is an example. Steve Spagnuolos dialing up timely blitzes in SB 42, Ravens and Jets dialing up timely blitzes is what kept Brady on his toes. Jaguars chose to never bring the heat, that was a mistake that cost them at the end, IMO, causing it to put in the hands of Bortles, which is what the Patriots wanted. 

 

Nevertheless, valiant effort by the Jaguars, fell short like most teams do at Foxboro.

[will426]

12 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

Brady has one major comeback win against the Falcons. Brady’s defense (yet again) won the Seattle game with that pick. Manning has the 2006 AFC championship game to counter that. Also the 2015 AFC championship game against the Pats.

Brady took the lead against the same team that Manning could not muster 9 points against in the biggest game. HE gave them the lead yes his defence made the stop but okay what if they didn’t have the lead in the first place they would’ve lost. Yes manning won that game great game and he also beat the pats in route to his second ring but besides those two   In the playoffs where you go home if you lose how many clutch games have manning won compared to Brady when down? Doesn’t matter how much they were down by as long as they contributed to getting the lead they won. 

[will426]

14 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

And I mean in 2007 (the only year Brady could muster Manning-like numbers was with Randy Moss and thy ran up the score quite a bit. They still do. They don’t often pull starters.

What does running up the score have to do with anything?  

[BloodyChamp]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

Once they let Brady convert that 3rd and 18 to Amendola, I knew it was over. You have to make plays vs Brady for 60 minutes, when will teams learn that? Ds that get stops vs Brady do not get stuck in the "oh, you cannot blitz Brady, he will eat you alive" cliche. You can blitz Brady, just have to be timely. Our 4th & 2 is an example. Steve Spagnuolos dialing up timely blitzes in SB 42, Ravens and Jets dialing up timely blitzes is what kept Brady on his toes. Jaguars chose to never bring the heat, that was a mistake that cost them at the end, IMO, causing it to put in the hands of Bortles, which is what the Patriots wanted. 

 

Nevertheless, valiant effort by the Jaguars, fell short like most teams do at Foxboro.

 

Every defense is going to give up a 3rd and 18 or a 4th and 11 (last week) or 2 in this era. Brady is overrated but he knows how to throw a spiral over a WRs shoulder unlike Bortles. If your defense give up 3 points in a half, and 10 for most of the 2nd half and you can't work with that, you suck. Bad.

[will426]

12 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

We were talking about Montana and how you say his accomplishments (not losing a SB unlike Brady; playing absolute lights out unlike Brady) mean less because everyone was playing by the same rules?

 

You say we can’t compare the two eras (I agree because it was enormously more difficult to play QB in that era) but then you go and compare the two?

Hmm okay so let’s put it this way Let’s exclude the Super Bowls right? Who is the better Qb? But also if you do bring up the losses in the Super Bowl both times under 2min Brady led his team to take the lead pretty but the defense gave it up at the end of the game he didn’t do anything to “cause” his team to lose he put them in the position to win and they didn’t come through. And yeah it was harder but it’s not that hard when half your team is hall of famers I’d think 

[will426]

2 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

 

Every defense is going to give up a 3rd and 18 or a 4th and 11 (last week) or 2 in this era. Brady is overrated but he knows how to throw a spiral over a WRs shoulder unlike Bortles. If your defense give up 3 points in a half, and 10 for most of the 2nd half and you can't work with that, you suck. Bad.

 Hmm not every team is gonna give up that 3rd and 18 but us for sure would give up the 3rd for 18 26 47  

[BloodyChamp]

Just every top defense then 

[bluebombers87]

4 minutes ago, will426 said:

Brady took the lead against the same team that Manning could not muster 9 points against in the biggest game. HE gave them the lead yes his defence made the stop but okay what if they didn’t have the lead in the first place they would’ve lost. Yes manning won that game great game and he also beat the pats in route to his second ring but besides those two   In the playoffs where you go home if you lose how many clutch games have manning won compared to Brady when down? Doesn’t matter how much they were down by as long as they contributed to getting the lead they won. 

Your argument comes down to rings. Which you’re right Manning doesn’t have those like Brady does. But Manning does have the stats, the MVPs, and never had the supporting cast that Brady did. Pats without Brady are 14-6. And Manning would have a lot more wins and rings if he had a defense like Brady has had.

[chad72]

14 minutes ago, will426 said:

Brady took the lead against the same team that Manning could not muster 9 points against in the biggest game. HE gave them the lead yes his defence made the stop but okay what if they didn’t have the lead in the first place they would’ve lost. Yes manning won that game great game and he also beat the pats in route to his second ring but besides those two   In the playoffs where you go home if you lose how many clutch games have manning won compared to Brady when down? Doesn’t matter how much they were down by as long as they contributed to getting the lead they won. 

 

This is a bit of a misnomer. The Seahawks' D that played in the 2014 SB was far more banged up than the 2013 version, several key guys like Chancellor and Earl Thomas had surgeries soon after the SB. Plus, you can thank Edelman for taking out Jeremy Lane leading to an arm injury thus helping Brady pick on his replacement the rest of the game. Not to mention, Cliff Avril went out with a concussion with a Brandon Bolden block and that is when the comeback started happening from 14-24 down vs the Seahawks when the Seahawks front four could not get to Brady as well.

 

Facts are facts, it does not deny the fact Brady made the comeback but let us not act like the Seahawks were at 100% and had the same depth or health they had in the 2013 SB. I give Brady the credit he deserves when I feel he deserves it on this site even though I am a Colts fan.

[bluebombers87]

8 minutes ago, will426 said:

Hmm okay so let’s put it this way Let’s exclude the Super Bowls right? Who is the better Qb? But also if you do bring up the losses in the Super Bowl both times under 2min Brady led his team to take the lead pretty but the defense gave it up at the end of the game he didn’t do anything to “cause” his team to lose he put them in the position to win and they didn’t come through. And yeah it was harder but it’s not that hard when half your team is hall of famers I’d think 

Brady had the ball to win the game in both situations. He choked.

 

And by your logic let’s exclude Brady’s Super Bowls. Who’s better, Manning or Brady?

 

Outside of Montana and Rice, who else was a hall of famer? Asking for a friend.

[will426]

3 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

Your argument comes down to rings. Which you’re right Manning doesn’t have those like Brady does. But Manning does have the stats, the MVPs, and never had the supporting cast that Brady did. Pats without Brady are 14-6. And Manning would have a lot more wins and rings if he had a defense like Brady has had.

I mean manning had the offense to get those stats thanks to polian as well?  But I’m with you in that manning for sure has won the mvp award far more times but that mvp showing didn’t always contribute to him playing good in the playoffs 

[will426]

4 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

This is a bit of a misnomer. The Seahawks' D that played in the 2014 SB was far more banged up than the 2013 version, several key guys like Chancellor and Earl Thomas had surgeries soon after the SB. Plus, you can thank Edelman for taking out Jeremy Lane leading to an arm injury thus helping Brady pick on his replacement the rest of the game. Not to mention, Cliff Avril went out with a concussion with a Brandon Bolden block and that is when the comeback started happening from 14-24 down vs the Seahawks when the Seahawks front four could not get to Brady as well.

 

Facts are facts, it does not deny the fact Brady made the comeback but let us not act like the Seahawks were at 100% and had the same depth or health they had in the 2013 SB. I give Brady the credit he deserves when I feel he deserves it on this site even though I am a Colts fan.

Injuries happen though it’s not like the pats made sure that Seattle was injured heading into the game lol they made it to the bowl injured so they had to be good enough? And I agree I give Brady his credit it just annoys me now how people continue to hate I love football and this guy is just like manning in certain ways so I’m just appreciative of watching him and not going to hate on him (unless he demolishes which hes done for a while) lol 

[chad72]

14 minutes ago, will426 said:

Injuries happen though it’s not like the pats made sure that Seattle was injured heading into the game lol they made it to the bowl injured so they had to be good enough? And I agree I give Brady his credit it just annoys me now how people continue to hate I love football and this guy is just like manning in certain ways so I’m just appreciative of watching him and not going to hate on him (unless he demolishes which hes done for a while) lol 

 

Good enough to get to the SB, yeah, but not good enough like in 2013 to dominate on D, the Seahawks were. They squeaked by GB at home with a botched onside kick by GB to win in OT. That was my point. In fact, the SB would have been won by the Seahawks if the Seahawks D was like in 2013. They still almost won, thanks to Russell Wilson who was playing real well. If the Patriots had injuries to Revis and Browner, do you think they would win? I think not, so injuries to key guys in the LOB makes all the difference to me, plus your front four.

 

Brady's OL does come through in lots of critical moments, and he has far more time to survey the field and execute in the red zone, that is one thing I have consistently seen over the years in the playoffs. That guy Scar makes a heck of a difference in coaching up the OL. It was the red zone pressure by Demarcus Ware and red zone INT against the 2-pt conversion that helped the Broncos seal the deal vs the Patriots in the 2015 AFCCG. Scar was not the OL coach that year, he retired in 2015, then came back in 2016 and here they are.

[MariGOATa]

Colts fans are delusional when they try to compare Manning to Brady.

 

fact: Manning was a great seasonal QB of all time. But he was always a choker in the playoffs. He has never won a SB because of his play, even that 2006 Colts team had a great defense in the playoffs. They had a bad regular season defensivly but they picked up their play in the playoffs.

 

brady will always be the better QB and it isnt even close.

[BloodyChamp]

Remember before 2012 Brady homers didn't like counting rings? What changed that?

[ReMeDy]

1 minute ago, MariGOATa said:

brady will always be the better QB and it isnt even close.

 

Let's see what Brady can do with Jim Caldwell as his coach.

 

It's a TEAM game.

[MariGOATa]

Just now, BloodyChamp said:

Remember before 2012 Brady homers didn't like counting rings? What changed that?

 

Brady isnt better than Manning because of rings. He’s better because he plays the position better in cruicial times than Manning ever did.

[chad72]

1 minute ago, ReMeDy said:

 

Let's see what Brady can do with Jim Caldwell as his coach.

 

It's a TEAM game.

 

Don't feed the troll who kept thinking Josh McDaniels was his head coach despite all reports to the contrary.  

[MariGOATa]

Just now, ReMeDy said:

 

Let's see what Brady can do with Jim Caldwell as his coach.

 

It's a TEAM game.

Lol. The coaching argument is dumb because you could always argue that Belichick wouldnt be % without Brady either. So theres that.

[MariGOATa]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Don't feed the troll who kept thinking Josh McDaniels was his head coach despite all reports to the contrary.  

 

By any means go ahead and engage into the argument and lose. 

 

Heres another fact: Manning has had better players throughout his career than Brady ever did too.

[chad72]

On 1/20/2018 at 9:21 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I wont bash the Jags too much as they are in the Final 4 now. So I will say 27-20 Patriots as Jags keep it close, they do have a solid Defense. In the end Tom Brady isn't losing at Foxboro to Blake Bortles with a SB berth on the line though. I have a friendly bet with a friend of mine and gave up 6.5 and took the Pats. 7.5 may be too much? I see a Pats vs Vikings SB on the horizon!

 

You were close though, 27-20, came back to say good call with 24-20 and betting under the odds. 

 

The Eagles made it the 5th year in a row (2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017) where the #1 seed in the AFC and NFC made the SB.

 

14 out of last 15 SBs - Brady, Peyton and Big Ben from AFC. AFC is truly top heavy.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, MariGOATa said:

 

By any means go ahead and engage into the argument and lose. 

 

Heres another fact: Manning has had better players throughout his career than Brady ever did too.

Brady has always had the better Coach and better Defenses, 2 can play at this. When Brady wins a SB with Gary Kubiak as his Coach give me a call.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

You were close though, 27-20, came back to say good call with 24-20 and betting under the odds. 

I lost my bet but it wasn't anything big, I gave 6.5. I damn near nailed the score though  

[JimJaime]

Ugh! I thought this Brady v Manning thing was done already! Come on people they are two of the greatest of all time and WE got to watch them and tell our kids and grandkids about!

 

i do laugh at the 2 different teams to a SB. Outside of Brady and BB there was not another player on the pats from the last SB win!  So a totally different team. 

 

Manning was amazing at reading Defenses. So is Brady.. let's be honest we all are like "yup we got this" whenever either of them got the ball down by less than 7 with 2 minutes left? Of course because we KNEW they were going to win it.

[2006Coltsbestever]

19 minutes ago, MariGOATa said:

Colts fans are delusional when they try to compare Manning to Brady.

 

fact: Manning was a great seasonal QB of all time. But he was always a choker in the playoffs. He has never won a SB because of his play, even that 2006 Colts team had a great defense in the playoffs. They had a bad regular season defensivly but they picked up their play in the playoffs.

 

brady will always be the better QB and it isnt even close.

It's very close, you are silly. Manning has won 5 MVP's. In 2006 Manning played a perfect 2nd Half against the Pats and took down Tom/BB. People say Manning choked a lot in the Playoffs. In some of those of games he lost to Great teams in reality like the Pats twice in 2003 and 2004 and then Steelers in 2005. Steelers were a WildCard team but they won the SB proving they were Great. Losing to the Saints wasn't a choke either, a lot of fluky bull went into that loss, like the Onside Kick and Freeney being injured. Stuff happens.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, JimJaime said:

Ugh! I thought this Brady v Manning thing was done already! Come on people they are two of the greatest of all time and WE got to watch them and tell our kids and grandkids about!

 

i do laugh at the 2 different teams to a SB. Outside of Brady and BB there was not another player on the pats from the last SB win!  So a totally different team. 

 

Manning was amazing at reading Defenses. So is Brady.. let's be honest we all are like "yup we got this" whenever either of them got the ball down by less than 7 with 2 minutes left? Of course because we KNEW they were going to win it.

I agree. I think you guys Repeat but I predicted it from the beginning of the season. Tom will get #6 IMO. If I was to do a list and some people call me the list guy, I would have no problem putting Tom #1, Montana at #2, and Peyton 3rd. Between those 3 it's close though when you factor everything in.

[JimJaime]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree. I think you guys Repeat but I predicted it from the beginning of the season. Tom will get #6 IMO. If I was to do a list and some people call me the list guy, I would have no problem putting Tom #1, Montana at #2, and Peyton 3rd. Between those 3 it's close though when you factor everything in.

I agree those 3 are amazing. I remember watching Montana as a kid and he seemed so mobile to me and made every throw.. I also think Manning gets more rings if he had BB as a coach which is why I think him and Brady are equally great. I find Brady more clutch, but I'm a pats fan so I am biased and I didn't see half as many Manning games as I have Brady