Basham

[BR-549]

14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Defjamz.....

 

I hope you know by now, I love you madly....    it's always fun talking draft stuff with you....

 

But you've got so much of this either wrong,  or backwards....

 

This will be a long post to address every player you listed.....

 

Vick Ballard's rookie year....     16 games,  16 starts!      He was never BEHIND anyone.     And he led the team in rushing!     What more did you want?

 

Henry Anderson's rookie year.....    9 games,  9 starts.      He was not behind Art Jones.    He started.   Then he got hurt in the Denver game where Luck got hurt.      But Henry started every game.

 

Newsome?     Played situationally because he was good on passing downs,  but terrible on other downs.    He had 6 sacks.    He was used properly and smoked enough dope that he's out of the league.

 

Moncrief came to the Colts out of Mississippi which didn't have a very sophisticated passing offense,  and everyone, including Grigson said so at the time.     He played behind Nicks as a rookie,  but he played and did well.    It's not as if he didn't play.     Then, his 2nd year,  he started 10 games and had 64 catches.   He played his way past Andre Johnson.     We used Moncrief and he did well.     He was developed.    His current problems have little to do with coaches not developing,   they have to do with injuries slowing his progress.

 

Hooker only didn't start his 1st game.    He missed almost the entire pre-season and literally wasn't ready when the season started.    It's a miracle we got him somewhat up to speed as fast as we did.     He got 3 interceptions in his first two games.      The only thing that stopped him is injury,  not Pagano.

 

Mack.....     didn't play two games due to injury.     Not due to coaches decision.    His game is still limited as is clear to most anyone.     He'll be used more and more.     Did you happen to see the game Gore had today?    Over 5 yards a carry.     Mack?    Not even close.     He's still a situational player at this point, but he will be used more and everyone says so....    Pagano has said it, and so has Ballard.  

 

You seem to think not starting game 1 of a rookie year is some sort of black mark on a HC.     It's not.    Sometimes a rookie is just not ready for a variety of reasons.     And there's no way for you to know if the coach is making a mistake or not.    Put another way,   there's a reason why one of the oldest true-ism in the NFL is that the largest improvement for a player typically comes between their first and second year.    

 

Last thought.....   if Pagano is so terrible about developing young players....    answer this simple question....

 

Who is the player that Pagano didn't develop properly who went elsewhere and is doing much better?     Are there a lot of them?       Fleener?     No.     Allen?     No.      Chapman?    No.    Hughes?     No.      Brazil?     No.    Newsroom?       No.      Smith?      No.      Parry?      No.      Holmes?     No.      Thornton?      No.    Werner?    No.

 

Need more examples?      I'm guessing no.   

 

It's not like Pagano is screwing up good players.    They're not going elsewhere and developing with other coaches.  

 

Pagano has plenty of weaknesses.     Superman has laid them out in a number of good posts.    But this idea of not developing young players is a myth.....     Right now it's an out of control myth based on the situations with Wilson and Mack.    

 

 

 

 

Well said NCF.... tip my hat to ya

[krunk]

I'm not going to say Jamz don't have any football knowledge because he does, but I've never understood the absolute brickwall/iron curtain stubborness.   Once he takes a position on something it will absolutely not change.  Even if it's wrong he'll just keep repeating it over and over again until one or two people jump on the bandwagon.  Very Puzzling.

[SaturdayAllDay]

40 minutes ago, Douzer said:

Loved the sack! Didn't care for the over-the-top celebration...

First career NFL sack. Its a big enough deal that you can overlook the young guy maybe going a little overboard. 

[FalseStart]

4 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

First career NFL sack. Its a big enough deal that you can overlook the young guy maybe going a little overboard. 

Agreed.  I'll take happiness were i can find it.  Watching Basham bash him was nice.  We need a little more cockiness-aggression. Cheers

[krunk]

I actually liked that little move Basham put on the guy after I went back and watched it.  That tells me he's starting to learn and execute some of the things he's being taught.  He sort of sold the guy inside and then worked to the outside and got the sack.   Starting to use his hands and set things up a little bit.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 10/29/2017 at 6:48 PM, csmopar said:

For some reason Pagano doesn't like to upset the status quo as far as letting young players earn their stripes 

 

He really doesn’t like playing guys that he actually has to coach up & develop. It’s an annoying part of the job that he just doesn’t care for.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

He really doesn’t like playing guys that he actually has to coach up & develop. It’s an annoying part of the job that he just doesn’t care for.

[csmopar]

4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Find me a guy he's coached up and played?

5 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

He really doesn’t like playing guys that he actually has to coach up & develop. It’s an annoying part of the job that he just doesn’t care for.

Very true

[Justin Zima]

I don’t like Pagano, that must not come as a surprise to most if not all Colts fans...

 

although i I think his in game management is his most troubling feature plus his very positive attitude seems to be lost on some players at this point.

 

With that said I actually think he’s done okay with the young guys we’ve had come in, I think Ryan Grigson was absolutely pathetic as a drafter and had a very clouded vision of the team and that’s why you don’t see much young player or drafted players from the previous years around anymore, they just weren’t good enough...

 

Although looking at some of the young talent that has rolled over I think Pagano has done a good job coaching them up. Ryan Kelly struggled throughout his first half of the season last year but ended up playing very well in the second half. Henry Anderson when healthy is a force up front as we saw from last weeks game. Hilton is undersized and wasn’t highly praised coming out of the draft but he’s a top 10 WR. Moncrief has flatlined but his development was coming along nicely (new qb and turnover of OC can contribute to the lack of development) Chester Rodgers is way better than he should be. Plus our special teams unit as a whole has grown together and developed...

 

As for this season, Hooker was playing fantastic (falls into poor tackling like 90% of our team) but overall was a ball hawk in the middle, Mack is playing well but needs to get better at inside runs and pass protection which the team is heavily working on with him. Seems like with Wilson it’s some tough love showing him he needs to compete every down and work hard on special teams but from the Arizona game it’s obvious he has the knowledge and skills. lastly and most importantly let’s look at NATE HAIRSTON, he’s a guy drafted in the 5th round playing a very tough position for us (Nickle) and playing it well, he was coached up heavily and it’s showing. Pagano has actually done a decent job developing...

 

Pagano has got to go though! Can’t stress that enough lol

[needanoline63]

On 10/29/2017 at 9:00 PM, DougDew said:

I think Ballard called him out publicly so the idea of him not working out had some substance.  I hope he continues to play well and improve.

To bad that didn’t work for our offensive line. Cause they are still trash

[DaColts85]

3 hours ago, csmopar said:

Find me a guy he's coached up and played?

 

This is a loaded question.  I could give you names but then you can just say it was not him.  Here is one for you...

 

Vontae Davis!  Pretty good coaching job there.  How about...

 

Mike Adams, best years were here

 

Rashaan Melvin, like him or not, an UDFA that has been our top guy this year.

 

I could keep going but those should be good.

[aaron11]

give him a chance before we bash em 

 

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, csmopar said:

Find me a guy he's coached up and played?

Very true

 

6 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

He really doesn’t like playing guys that he actually has to coach up & develop. It’s an annoying part of the job that he just doesn’t care for.

Man some of you just sit around thinking of crap to throw at Pagano. And this is a big pile right here.

[PeterBowman]

10 minutes ago, DaColts85 said:

This is a loaded question.  I could give you names but then you can just say it was not him.  Here is one for you...

 

Vontae Davis!  Pretty good coaching job there.  How about...

 

Mike Adams, best years were here

 

Rashaan Melvin, like him or not, an UDFA that has been our top guy this year.

 

I could keep going but those should be good.

also Darius Butler was a very good slot corner for a while with the Colts too.

[chad72]

2 hours ago, PeterBowman said:

also Darius Butler was a very good slot corner for a while with the Colts too.

 

The best part about the coaching has been the DB coaching, and that was the pedigree of Pagano coming in.

 

Pass rushers, guys, it takes a 2nd or 3rd rounder a lot of time to get used to the NFL and the OL strength, with moves and counter moves. Even Freeney, being a high first round draft pick, (at 10 or 11 in 2002) in a system where he fit to a tee, for Dungy, took half a year before he came on. Werner was just a bad pick, the talent did not justify the spot he was picked at but then, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[csmopar]

26 minutes ago, DaColts85 said:

This is a loaded question.  I could give you names but then you can just say it was not him.  Here is one for you...

 

Vontae Davis!  Pretty good coaching job there.  How about...

 

Mike Adams, best years were here

 

Rashaan Melvin, like him or not, an UDFA that has been our top guy this year.

 

I could keep going but those should be good.

2 of those 3 were good before coming here, I'll give you Melvin. and yet we had guys like Greg Toler, Landry that he obviously didn't coach up. but outside of the secondary, who has he coached up?

23 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Man some of you just sit around thinking of crap to throw at Pagano. And this is a big pile right here.

Facts speak for themselves, there's no making anything up

[jvan1973]

17 minutes ago, csmopar said:

2 of those 3 were good before coming here, I'll give you Melvin. and yet we had guys like Greg Toler, Landry that he obviously didn't coach up. but outside of the secondary, who has he coached up?

Facts speak for themselves, there's no making anything up

If a player doesn't work out,   that means the coach failed to coach them up?  

[csmopar]

32 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

If a player doesn't work out,   that means the coach failed to coach them up?  

to a certain degree, yes. Now does that mean the coach should be held accountable for that, not unless its a routine issue year after year. 

 

Let me be clear on something:  I'm still on the fence as to firing pagano.  Part of me wants him gone and there are tons of reasons to fire him. Part of me wants to see if he can produce results with a healthy team, something we've not had in a while.  The problem is, I'm hunting for reasons to KEEP him and I'm not finding hardly any. 

[jvan1973]

12 minutes ago, csmopar said:

to a certain degree, yes. Now does that mean the coach should be held accountable for that, not unless its a routine issue year after year. 

 

Let me be clear on something:  I'm still on the fence as to firing pagano.  Part of me wants him gone and there are tons of reasons to fire him. Part of me wants to see if he can produce results with a healthy team, something we've not had in a while.  The problem is, I'm hunting for reasons to KEEP him and I'm not finding hardly any. 

I think it's time to make a change,   but I don't speculate how he coaches in practices that I've never attended

[csmopar]

7 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I think it's time to make a change,   but I don't speculate how he coaches in practices that I've never attended

true but the product of practices shows on the field.

[crazycolt1]

20 minutes ago, csmopar said:

to a certain degree, yes. Now does that mean the coach should be held accountable for that, not unless its a routine issue year after year. 

 

Let me be clear on something:  I'm still on the fence as to firing pagano.  Part of me wants him gone and there are tons of reasons to fire him. Part of me wants to see if he can produce results with a healthy team, something we've not had in a while.  The problem is, I'm hunting for reasons to KEEP him and I'm not finding hardly any. 

So if a player don't have the talent or under performs it's the coaches fault?  Players can sit and watch film and be coached up but if they don't relate it on the field after the coach has done as much as he can, then let's all blame the coach. Why not, there has to be someone who gets the blame. It don't matter the quality of players brought in for him to coach he is expected to make good players out of crap.

[csmopar]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

So if a player don't have the talent or under performs it's the coaches fault?  Players can sit and watch film and be coached up but if they don't relate it on the field after the coach has done as much as he can, then let's all blame the coach. Why not, there has to be someone who gets the blame. It don't matter the quality of players brought in for him to coach he is expected to make good players out of crap.

No... that counts too.  Where did i ever say the quality of players was solely on Pagano?

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

No... that counts too.  Where did i ever say the quality of players was solely on Pagano?

But he is expected to make a silk purse out of pigs ear? And when he don't his head needs to roll. That is the attitude you and a few more take.

 

[Yoshinator]

6 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

So if a player don't have the talent or under performs it's the coaches fault?  Players can sit and watch film and be coached up but if they don't relate it on the field after the coach has done as much as he can, then let's all blame the coach. Why not, there has to be someone who gets the blame. It don't matter the quality of players brought in for him to coach he is expected to make good players out of crap.

My opinion on this is that although Grigson was horrible, I don't believe he was horrible to the extent that Pagano couldn't coach up any of the rookies. His track record with coaching up rookies has been absymal. Almost none of the draft picks have continually gotten better year after year under Pagano. If anything, they've regressed. This class is ok so far, but who knows if they will continue to grow. Then you can't use the Grigson excuse anymore.

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

My opinion on this is that although Grigson was horrible, I don't believe he was horrible to the extent that Pagano couldn't coach up any of the rookies. His track record with coaching up rookies has been absymal. Almost none of the draft picks have continually gotten better year after year under Pagano. If anything, they've regressed. This class is ok so far, but who knows if they will continue to grow. Then you can't use the Grigson excuse anymore.

Grigson is not an excuse. He was the problem.

[csmopar]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Grigson is not an excuse. He was the problem.

and he's gone, yet Pagano hasnt coached anyone of Ballard's players up either....

8 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

But he is expected to make a silk purse out of pigs ear? And when he don't his head needs to roll. That is the attitude you and a few more take.

 

When some of those players were players that Pagano said he wanted, then yes, it falls on him.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

and he's gone, yet Pagano hasnt coached anyone of Ballard's players up either....

When some of those players were players that Pagano said he wanted, then yes, it falls on him.

That is wrong. Look at the drafts and the free agents that Ballard has brought in and you will find some starters. A couple are injured but of coarse that's Pagano's fault too.

[csmopar]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

That is wrong. Look at the drafts and the free agents that Ballard has brought in and you will find some starters. A couple are injured but of coarse that's Pagano's fault too.

Look, I understand you have a thing for Pagano and adore him, but stop putting words into my mouth.  If you can't carry a conversation without making false accusations as to what I blame Pagano for, then stop reading/responding to my post or go elsewhere

[IndyScribe]

Pagano has done some good, but I'm with the majority. He needs to go. 

[DaColts85]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

2 of those 3 were good before coming here, I'll give you Melvin. and yet we had guys like Greg Toler, Landry that he obviously didn't coach up. but outside of the secondary, who has he coached up?

Terrible job trying to argue your side.

 

As stated, Adams best years were here.

 

Davis has become an all around better player since being here compared to the troubled days in Miami.  

 

As I said before you are going to try and say this or that instead of giving the credit as predicted.

[DaColts85]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

to a certain degree, yes. Now does that mean the coach should be held accountable for that, not unless its a routine issue year after year. 

 

Let me be clear on something:  I'm still on the fence as to firing pagano.  Part of me wants him gone and there are tons of reasons to fire him. Part of me wants to see if he can produce results with a healthy team, something we've not had in a while.  The problem is, I'm hunting for reasons to KEEP him and I'm not finding hardly any. 

What is funny is you are saying he has done no coaching up of players.  Yet above you state you actually are "on the fence" about keeping him?  If he has done nothing with the players why would you want to keep him?

[jvan1973]

25 minutes ago, csmopar said:

and he's gone, yet Pagano hasnt coached anyone of Ballard's players up either....

When some of those players were players that Pagano said he wanted, then yes, it falls on him.

Hooker looked good before the injury,   basham looked good last week.   They are obviously getting better individually

[chad72]

23 minutes ago, DaColts85 said:

Terrible job trying to argue your side.

 

As stated, Adams best years were here.

 

Davis has become an all around better player since being here compared to the troubled days in Miami.  

 

As I said before you are going to try and say this or that instead of giving the credit as predicted.

 

Yep. Toler, actually was decent, when healthy, he just had to be thrown to more because VD was balling on the other side most of the time. It can't be the coaches' fault a guy cannot stay healthy. Plus, Landry, was just a bad bad FA pick up, it is almost like people (mainly Grigson) were enamored with his speed and hitting when he managed to read the play right as opposed to looking at his Jets' film and how he played the angles in run D and his pass coverage with them that wasn't up to snuff more often than not. Bad swap, giving up Bethea for Landry, set our safety position back considerably that we constantly were playing catch up.

[ColtsBlitz]

I came here expecting news on Basham since it was "HOT!" but all I've seen are people's arguments that looped back to Pagano. Excellent. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

I think it's time to make a change,   but I don't speculate how he coaches in practices that I've never attended

 

What's coached throughout the week in practice is supposed to carry over to gameday, so you're seeing it in the form of finished product every Sunday afternoon. If you look at our record, the blowouts, and epic second half collapses, you can probably draw your own conclusions about what's actually accomplished in practice.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

Grigson is not an excuse. He was the problem.

 

I was open-minded coming into this season and was totally willing to give Chuck the benefit of the doubt, and let him coach a year without being handcuffed to Grigson, and what'd we get? The worst season, by far, in the Chuck Pagano era, and we're not even halfway through yet.

[jvan1973]

7 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

What's coached throughout the week in practice is supposed to carry over to gameday, so you're seeing it in the form of finished product every Sunday afternoon. If you look at our record, the blowouts, and epic second half collapses, you can probably draw your own conclusions about what's actually accomplished in practice.

No not really.   Not on individual performance improving from one week to another.    It shows terrible play calling,   it shows lack  of adjustments made.    It doesn't show player development 

[jvan1973]

5 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I was open-minded coming into this season and was totally willing to give Chuck the benefit of the doubt, and let him coach a year without being handcuffed to Grigson, and what'd we get? The worst season, by far, in the Chuck Pagano era, and we're not even halfway through yet.

With a rookie qb that didn't have training camp or preseason,  what did you expect?

[Steamboat_Shaun]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

With a rookie qb that didn't have training camp or preseason,  what did you expect?

 

Brissett has played well enough to keep us in every game he's played in since he started. If anything you can argue that he's been a blessing for Pagano, and Chuck's squandered 2nd half lead after 2nd half lead in spite of Brissett's decent backup play.

[SaturdayAllDay]

3 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

The best part about the coaching has been the DB coaching, and that was the pedigree of Pagano coming in.

 

Pass rushers, guys, it takes a 2nd or 3rd rounder a lot of time to get used to the NFL and the OL strength, with moves and counter moves. Even Freeney, being a high first round draft pick, (at 10 or 11 in 2002) in a system where he fit to a tee, for Dungy, took half a year before he came on. Werner was just a bad pick, the talent did not justify the spot he was picked at but then, hindsight is 20/20.

 

Spot on. 

 

I actually did some research before the 2016 season. In the previous 10 seasons, a pass rusher taken in the 1st round averaged 3.96 sacks in their rookie year. Most sacks they got came later on in the year. With Bosa doing well last yr I think the average might have gone up a touch, but its still essentially 4 sacks you should be expecting out of a 1st round pass rusher in their rookie year.  Expecting even that out of Basham, a 3rd round pick who is playing part time, is ridiculous. Anyone who thinks Basham isnt doing exactly what is expected of him at this point is delusional. He has a lot of work to do before id call him successful, but he isnt at a point where he should be considered underperforming.