Brady Wins, Deflategate Suspension Nullified

[dw49]

They picked the district because of jurisdiction. It was logical, unlike the NFLPA filing in MN to get Doty.

 

Ironically, Doty wouldn't have taken the case, and the other MN judge seems less like an NFLPA sympathizer than Doty. Doesn't mean he would have ruled different.

 

 

That makes sense.

[-JJ-]

In light of Bradys exhoneration I'm wondering if the Pats have any recourse for the fines and draft picks they lost?

They could but heard from a good source they won't.

Not sure why they were fined to begin with as the report said they were unaware. Unless it's the old the buck stops at the top.

[ruksak]

BREAKING NEWS; A Federal Judge has found a 6 year old boy not guilty of breaking a lamp when he was alone in a room playing with a ball. The judge cited lack of evidence. 

[BullsColtsFan1]

Good for Tom Brady.  Nothing surprises me anymore.  I am just glad this whole thing is over. Suspension or no suspension.  I am ready for the season as should everyone else.

[amfootball]

I didn't say you , I inferred that it would be a Pat fan. Usually I'm pretty accurate when I say something. To no surprise it was Virdundant...I think on page 6 if you want to check me out. Post 218.

 

 

The NFL filed this in NY, not the NFLPA!!!!!!  This judge was handpicked by Goodell and Co.!

Man.

I think we are all pretty joyful today as I am sure you can imagine and probably typing too fast.

 

Your first post on this thread was very classy and I appreciate that. I will file that away to remind you of your upstanding character the next time someone gives you a rough time.

[our_dbs_rock]

BREAKING NEWS; A Federal Judge has found a 6 year old boy not guilty of breaking a lamp when he was alone in a room playing with a ball. The judge cited lack of evidence. 

 

Also the boy was unaware that breaking a lamp was bad.

[dw49]

I think we are all pretty joyful today as I am sure you can imagine and probably typing too fast.

 

Your first post on this thread was very classy and I appreciate that. I will file that away to remind you of your upstanding character the next time someone gives you a rough time.

 

 

yeah.. I don't blame you all for being happy with the decision. just pointing out that the judge was not handpicked

[Superman]

Also the boy was unaware that breaking a lamp was bad.

 

Or that he could be punished for it.

[ViriLudant]

Superman, from Berman:

“In December 2010, the NFL fined Brett Favre $50,000—but did not suspend him—for obstruction of a League sexual harassment investigation. Although not entirely comparable to the present matter, this illustrates the NFL's practice of fining, not suspending a player, for serious violations of this type. There is no evidence of a record of past suspensions based purely on obstructing a League investigation. In my forty years of association with the NFL, I am aware of many instances of denials in disciplinary proceedings that proved to be false, but I cannot recall any suspension 24 for such fabrication. There is no evidence of a record of past suspensions based purely on obstructing a League investigation.”

[ruksak]

 

A federal judge determined that 3 year old Tom Brady cannot be punished for having eaten the sprinkles due to a lack of evidence. Simply having sprinkles on ones face cannot led to a conclusion of guilt, as there are many other plausible explanations for the presence of sprinkles on ones face. 

 

Three year old Tom Brady's mother used an "independent" investigator to come to a desired conclusion, absolutely circumventing any desire to reach the truth of the matter. 

 

The sprinkle bandit is still on the loose. Three year old Teddy Bruschi was quoted saying "What sprinkles"? 

[Gramz]

BREAKING NEWS; A Federal Judge has found a 6 year old boy not guilty of breaking a lamp when he was alone in a room playing with a ball. The judge cited lack of evidence. 

 

 

Also the boy was unaware that breaking a lamp was bad.

 

 

Or that he could be punished for it.

I blame Society,  that and the fact that everybody breaks stuff.

[ViriLudant]

The lack of comprehension here is amazing.  So many of you making snap judgements without actually reading any of the court documents.

[Yehoodi]

No.

 

1) This is not like Brett Favre. Honestly, that's just a really stupid comparison, for various reasons that I think are obvious.

 

2) Brady wasn't suspended only for non cooperation. He was suspended for conduct detrimental.

 

3) It is up to the NFL to determine whether they think Brady was guilty, which they obviously do.

 

What?

 

1) What is wrong with the Favre reference?  Correct me if I am wrong Favre failed to turn over his phone during a NFL investigation no?  Why is that stupid.  We can talk about the SD towel incident, or any other non coop where no suspension happened, I just pick Favre as it dealt with a phone.

 

2) How did Brady act in a manner that is conduct detrimental?  What is your basis for finding this point?

 

2a) You might want to reread Goodell's (page 13) and Vincent's rulings as they both cited Brady's non cooperation as part of the penalty.

 

3) The NFL can try to do whatever it wants, but when making determination of guilt they must do so as they have had in the past and must issue any penalties consistent with prior penalties.  So this point is kind of weak.  You sound like the NFL, we can do what we want cause we are the NFL, which is far from the truth.

 

Oh and another thing, you can not sugar coat and try to bootstrap non cooperation into conduct detrimental and try to backdoor a suspension simply because you put a fancy label on the actions.  The action is the action, regardless of what label is affixed to it.  Getting back to my lumber yard analogy, the boss cannot label our tardiness as conduct detrimental to backdoor a weeks pay fine.  Either we are late or not.  Likewise when one does not cooperate, ones does not cooperate and it is as simple as that. 

 

As for anything else Brady did or could have done, all you have is a simple run of the mill equipment violation, frankly no different than the Jay Feely actions and he walked away free of anything.  Now somehow Goodell wants to throw a fancy label on what Feely did and call is something else to then impose a suspension on Brady for basically being in the exact same shoes as Feely.  I mean really is that your argument Supes?

 

Bottom line Supes, no matter how you try to spin things, the underlying acts are the underlying acts and they must be treated in the same manner as similar prior underlying acts.  You can not add labels to get a desired result, it does not change the act.  If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck.  The judge figured out what the NFL was trying to do and call them on it.  Plain and simple.

[southwest1]

BREAKING NEWS; A Federal Judge has found a 6 year old boy not guilty of breaking a lamp when he was alone in a room playing with a ball. The judge cited lack of evidence. 

Child responds: "Lamp? What lamp? I don't recall that. You need to get your eyes checked."   Just messing around. 

[Superman]

Huh? The NFL never argued that it was not a rules violation. They talked a lot about the integrity of the game to which Berman said every violation falls under integrity of the game. If you followed the hearings, it was clear that Berman was trying to understand what Brady was being punished for. He said the Wells report had to do with only the AFCCG game and that the suspensions was based on that game. Nash agreed. He then asked where the evidence was that Brady had done anything in that game to tell the ball boys to deflate the balls. Nash said there was no evidence. That is when they got into the whole discussion of the 4 game punishment and how Goodell went from Wells "generally aware" statement to what he said in the appeal award which was that Brady directed a scheme to deflate footballs and compared to PEDs. So the NFL kept moving the line so to speak on what they were punishing Brady for and then of course at the end of the day there was never any notice. Berman cites all of this in his ruling but vacated on the notice and the appeal process.

 

That's all judgment on the merits of the case.

[Superman]

Superman, from Berman:

“In December 2010, the NFL fined Brett Favre $50,000—but did not suspend him—for obstruction of a League sexual harassment investigation. Although not entirely comparable to the present matter, this illustrates the NFL's practice of fining, not suspending a player, for serious violations of this type. There is no evidence of a record of past suspensions based purely on obstructing a League investigation. In my forty years of association with the NFL, I am aware of many instances of denials in disciplinary proceedings that proved to be false, but I cannot recall any suspension 24 for such fabrication. There is no evidence of a record of past suspensions based purely on obstructing a League investigation.”

 

That's awesome.

 

Brady wasn't suspended only for obstructing or failing to cooperate.

[-JJ-]

I never said they picked Berman. They picked the district precisely because it has a high rate for upholding appeals when a CBA is involved. And it came back to bite them. The MN judge was conservative and may have been more favorable to them but we will never know. That part is very sweet.

remember circular

[dgambill]

Yes. First, Brady gets to play!  To be honest, my respect for Brady has gone up ten fold after this victory. He could have bowed down months ago like Kraft did but he maintained his innocence, kept quiet other than his one FB post after the appeal verdict and won the case which many said would be the equivalent of him completing a Hail Mary in the last seconds of a game giving how much appeals are given deference in the fed court.

In addition, he won in the NFL's choosing of the court venue and they got their hat handed to them. So yeah, lots of celebrating after a very long 8 months ...

I mean this whole thing was overkill but your respect him more? I'm not going to sit here and say he deserved that suspension so I understand why he fought it but after all that went on with the texts and him destroying his phone and stone walling the investigation..can't say I respect that side so much. Great great player...and nothing changes my feelings about that....but his character took a hit from me...and well that means much much more imo. If you dislike Goodell and how the NFL handles things...certainly this was a win...they looked inept and for a bunch of lawyers not being able to run a hearing...pretty sad on their part I agree.

[ruksak]

The lack of comprehension here is amazing.  So many of you making snap judgements without actually reading any of the court documents.

Common sense has no place in the rule of law. 

 

Your team's prestige is gone, absolutely gone. Nothing but shiny things remain........reminders that the destruction of evidence is still ones best recourse to getting away with wrongdoings. 

[OffensivelyPC]

That's awesome.

 

Brady wasn't suspended only for obstructing or failing to cooperate.

It's also not Berman who said it.

[Superman]

What?

 

1) What is wrong with the Favre reference?  Correct me if I am wrong Favre failed to turn over his phone during a NFL investigation no?  Why is that stupid.  We can talk about the SD towel incident, or any other non coop where no suspension happened, I just pick Favre as it dealt with a phone.

 

2) How did Brady act in a manner that is conduct detrimental?  What is your basis for finding this point?

 

2a) You might want to reread Goodell's (page 13) and Vincent's rulings as they both cited Brady's non cooperation as part of the penalty.

 

3) The NFL can try to do whatever it wants, but when making determination of guilt they must do so as they have had in the past and must issue any penalties consistent with prior penalties.  So this point is kind of weak.  You sound like the NFL, we can do what we want cause we are the NFL, which is far from the truth.

 

Oh and another thing, you can not sugar coat and try to bootstrap non cooperation into conduct detrimental and try to backdoor a suspension simply because you put a fancy label on the actions.  The action is the action, regardless of what label is affixed to it.  Getting back to my lumber yard analogy, the boss cannot label our tardiness as conduct detrimental to backdoor a weeks pay fine.  Either we are late or not.  Likewise when one does not cooperate, ones does not cooperate and it is as simple as that. 

 

As for anything else Brady did or could have done, all you have is a simple run of the mill equipment violation, frankly no different than the Jay Feely actions and he walked away free of anything.  Now somehow Goodell wants to throw a fancy label on what Feely did and call is something else to then impose a suspension on Brady for basically being in the exact same shoes as Feely.  I mean really is that your argument Supes?

 

Bottom line Supes, no matter how you try to spin things, the underlying acts are the underlying acts and they must be treated in the same manner as similar prior underlying acts.  You can not add labels to get a desired result, it does not change the act.  If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck.  The judge figured out what the NFL was trying to do and call them on it.  Plain and simple.

 

Your argument is so intellectually dishonest that I don't know where to begin. But I'm spinning things? 

 

1) It's stupid. The Brady situation has no relation or similarity to the Favre case. Just because a phone was involved doesn't mean the cases are similar.

 

2a) The NFL determined that Brady was involved in this plan to tamper with the footballs. Are you new?

 

2b) Did you miss the word "only" in my previous comment? As in "Brady wasn't suspended only for non cooperation"?

 

3) No they don't have to determine guilt in line with how other cases have been handled. They have to determine punishment in line with precedent, to a certain extent. It was up to the NFL to determine whether they thought Brady was guilty or not. How they ruled makes it clear what they thought.

 

Jay Feely was never accused of tampering with footballs. Brady was accused, investigated, and found to be involved in tampering with footballs, by the NFL. The merits of that accusation, investigation and conclusion are another story; the accusation, investigation and conclusion are what they are, and they alone make the Brady case far different from the non-case that somewhat involved Jay Feely. Long and short, it was NOT the same thing.

 

I am not trying to add a label. There is a difference between detrimental conduct and obstructing the investigation pertaining to detrimental conduct. I am not trying to lump them together; you are the one doing that. There is no spin. The NFL said 'we believe Brady was involved in this ball tampering, and he refused to cooperate. On those grounds, he's suspended four games.' If you can't understand the nuances of that fairly simple conclusion, I don't know what else to say.

[PeterBowman]

Also the boy was unaware that breaking a lamp was bad.

and when asked about the ball, he said he destroyed it because it's normal to destroy the ball after 2 or 3 playings.

[Gramz]

It's also not Berman who said it.

Hey, Buddy.  Good to see you here.

 

I hope you'll be posting more again once the season gets underway.

[Yehoodi]

BREAKING NEWS; A Federal Judge has found a 6 year old boy not guilty of breaking a lamp when he was alone in a room playing with a ball. The judge cited lack of evidence. 

 

I did not see that news report, must of missed it while I was reading this one

 

BREAKING NEWS: The NFL just suspended a player for an entire year for the a PED violation.  When confronted with why he was being suspended for a year and not four games the following conversation transpired between the NFL and the player:

 

Player: Why am I being suspended for one year and not the standard enumerated four games?

 

NFL Rep: Well the PED you used came in a yellow tablet and not the blue tablet.

 

Player: What does the color of the tablet have to do with anything?

 

NLF Rep:  Well we have determined that the use of a yellow tablet is conduct detrimental to the league and the reason for the additional eight games.

 

Player: I do not follow your logic between colors and conduct detrimental?

 

NFL Rep: You do not have to, we are the NFL and can do what the #$$k we want and you have to deal with it, remember we have Article 46.

[OffensivelyPC]

Hey, Buddy.  Good to see you here.

 

I hope you'll be posting more again once the season gets underway.

I've been on a little more this past week or so.  Been nice with the football season picking back up again.  Saw the news on Brady and had to stop in and see the fun.

[Superman]

and when asked about the ball, he said he destroyed it because it's normal to destroy the ball after 2 or 3 playings.

 

But then he produced his previous ball for inspection, which had been played with a few dozen times. 

[Gramz]

I've been on a little more this past week or so.  Been nice with the football season picking back up again.  Saw the news on Brady and had to stop in and see the fun.

[Gramz]

But then he produced his previous ball for inspection, which had been played with a few dozen times. 

  keep em coming...

[our_dbs_rock]

and when asked about the ball, he said he destroyed it because it's normal to destroy the ball after 2 or 3 playings.

Then he was asked if he was a lamp breaker, the boy responded 'I don't think I am.'

[OffensivelyPC]

Judge says if you haven't suspended for something before, then you can never suspend someone for said conduct because the notice is inadequate.  Judge promptly, without notice, inserts the words "letter of the law" into the CBA.  Nice touch, judge.

[our_dbs_rock]

  keep em coming...

The boy was willing to offer a spreadsheet of people he had played ball with.

[Superman]

Judge says if you haven't suspended for something before, then you can never suspend someone for said conduct because the notice is inadequate.  Judge promptly, without notice, inserts the words "letter of the law" into the CBA.  Nice touch, judge.

 

I found that interesting. There's never any precedent until there's precedent.

[dw49]

Your argument is so intellectually dishonest that I don't know where to begin. But I'm spinning things? 

 

1) It's stupid. The Brady situation has no relation or similarity to the Favre case. Just because a phone was involved doesn't mean the cases are similar.

 

2a) The NFL determined that Brady was involved in this plan to tamper with the footballs. Are you new?

 

2b) Did you miss the word "only" in my previous comment? As in "Brady wasn't suspended only for non cooperation"?

 

3) No they don't have to determine guilt in line with how other cases have been handled. They have to determine punishment in line with precedent, to a certain extent. It was up to the NFL to determine whether they thought Brady was guilty or not. How they ruled makes it clear what they thought.

 

Jay Feely was never accused of tampering with footballs. Brady was accused, investigated, and found to be involved in tampering with footballs, by the NFL. The merits of that accusation, investigation and conclusion are another story; the accusation, investigation and conclusion are what they are, and they alone make the Brady case far different from the non-case that somewhat involved Jay Feely. Long and short, it was NOT the same thing.

 

I am not trying to add a label. There is a difference between detrimental conduct and obstructing the investigation pertaining to detrimental conduct. I am not trying to lump them together; you are the one doing that. There is no spin. The NFL said 'we believe Brady was involved in this ball tampering, and he refused to cooperate. On those grounds, he's suspended four games.' If you can't understand the nuances of that fairly simple conclusion, I don't know what else to say.

 

 

First thing I did was congratulate "them" for being right . They did call it (you did also)  that Brady would not serve a game. I also understood that they were happy their team would have Brady for all 16 games. But posts like the yehoodi one , just brings us back to square one. Yeah... you're the one spinning things. I really never read his posts as it takes way too long for me to get aggravated by him. I prefer quick ridiculous stuff like some of the other Pat posters spew out. Anyway , I give you credit for not giving in to stupid remarks 

[dw49]

Then he was asked if he was a lamp breaker, the boy responded 'I don't think I am.'

 

That is funny

[dynasty13]

you guys are funny

[dw49]

you guys are funny

 

 

Yeah... some of this stuff is pretty funny. I just want to watch some football. Is what it is on this other stuff as it's getting old.

[OffensivelyPC]

I found that interesting. There's never any precedent until there's precedent.

I really don't get that reasoning either.  The judge is basically telling the NFL to either come up with all conceivable violations, foreseen and unforeseen, state what punishment that violation deserves, and stick to it, regardless of the circumstances, as if these things aren't collectively bargained.  I don't think she realizes how the real world works.  If destroying evidence on your phone during an ivestigation had to be collectively bargained, they'd still be stuck negotiating the 2011 CBA...

[Gramz]

you guys are funny

I needed the laughs today. You have to admit, we're a witty bunch.

Honestly, I don't have any hard feelings towards anyone on this board. We're all fans of the game, albeit different teams, but fans the same.

I hope that this is a lesson on how things should be handled, but I have my doubts.

I Can't wait to see what this season brings.

[amfootball]

That's all judgment on the merits of the case.

No. It's not.

[amfootball]

In vacating the NFL’s four-game suspension of Tom Brady, Judge Richard Berman seized on three different aspects of the NFL’s handing down of the discipline and execution of Brady’s appeal.

In his analysis, Berman writes:

The Court is fully aware of the deference afforded to arbitral decisions, but, nevertheless, concludes that the Award should be vacated. The Award is premised upon several significant legal deficiencies, including (A) inadequate notice to Brady of both his potential discipline (four-game suspension) and his alleged misconduct; (B) denial of the opportunity for Brady to examine one of the two lead investigators, namely NFL Executive Vice President and General Counsel Jeff Pash and © denial of equal access to investigative files, including witness interview notes.

 

In discussing the lack of notice Brady was given for “general awareness” of a conspiracy to deflate footballs and non-cooperation, Berman writes:

The court finds that Brady had no notice that he could receive a four-game suspension for general awareness of ball deflation by others or participation in any scheme to deflate footballs and non-cooperation with the ensuing investigation. Brady also had no notice that his discipline would be the equivalent of the discipline imposed upon a player who used performance enhancing drugs.

During the August 19, 2015 oral argument, it became apparent that no specific determination was made either in the Vincent’s Disciplinary Decision Letter or the Goodell Award as to what portion of Brady’s discipline was attributable to alleged ball tampering and what discipline was attributable to alleged ball tampering and what discipline was attributable to non-cooperation (and, for that matter, what discipline was attributable destruction of Brady’s phone).

 

Berman went on to detail the back and forth between he and Nash during that hearing. After that, he writes, in the money graf:

The Court is unable to perceive “notice” of discipline or any comparability between a violation of the Steroid Policy and a “general awareness” of the inappropriate activities of others or even involvement in a scheme by others to deflate game balls on January 18, 2015 and non-cooperation in a football deflation investigation.

 

Continuing later in bolded type, Berman wrote:

The Court finds that no player alleged or found to have had a general awareness of the inappropriate ball deflation activities of others who allegedly schemed with others to let air out of footballs in a championship game and also had not cooperated in an ensuing investigation reasonably could be on notice that their discipline would (or should) be the same as applied to a player who violated the NFL Policy on Anabolic Steroid and Related Substances.