Does ray rice deserve a second chance?

[southwest1]

\m/METALHEADS, UNITE!!!!!!!!\m/

Seriously though....IMO playing in the NFL is a privelage, one that many non wifebeating people would love to have, if you commit a serious crime, you should lose the privelage, just my opinion.

And yes, he did his counseling, probation, and whatever else he was ordered to do, does that truly mean he has been rehabilited? Did he do it for the right reasons, or because he wanted to jump through all the hoops so that he could get back to making millions in the NFL? I watched his interview the other day, he did not seem sincere to me. And to those who say, look, they got married, she forgave him, that's pretty common in abusive relationships.

Rant off.

Doing the Ronnie James Dio closed fist/index finger & pinky salute right now. No, Texas Longhorns football fans Ronnie invented this gesture & call sign long before your fanbase  made this rallying cry mainstream. 

 

No one is claiming that Ray Rice's wife is being brainwashed to forgive her husband here. Ray will never be able to forgive himself over what he did to his wife & the only thing that probably keeps him motivated is spending the rest of his life showing his daughter & her momma the proper way to treat women & settle confrontations peacefully in a calm & rational manner. 

 

People are free to interpret Rice's sincerity or insincerity any way they wish naturally of course, but saying "forgiveness is common in abusive relationships" is just another way of diluting a criminal's honest attempt to fix their behavior & take their life in a more positive direction to me. 

 

Let's just agree to disagree here. I respect your difference of interpretation on this matter m colts m. I just come at it from a slightly different vantage point. 

[BOTT]

Stick him in an elevator with Ronda Rousey for a few rounds...  That may earn him a second chance...

I got a $100 on Rice

[BOTT]

I was also against Vick playing in the NFL again...

Why? Because he treated some dogs poorly?

[HOZER]

Doing the Ronnie James Dio closed fist/index finger & pinky salute right now. No, Texas Longhorns football fans Ronnie invented this gesture & call sign long before your fanbase made this rallying cry mainstream.

No one is claiming that Ray Rice's wife is being brainwashed to forgive her husband here. Ray will never be able to forgive himself over what he did to his wife & the only thing that probably keeps him motivated is spending the rest of his life showing his daughter & her momma the proper way to treat women & settle confrontations peacefully in a calm & rational manner.

People are free to interpret Rice's sincerity or insincerity any way they wish naturally of course, but saying "forgiveness is common in abusive relationships" is just another way of diluting a criminal's honest attempt to fix their behavior & take their life in a more positive direction to me.

Let's just agree to disagree here. I respect your difference of interpretation on this matter m colts m. I just come at it from a slightly different vantage point.

NP SW, would a boring place this would be if we all agreed, right?

Hopefully you're right and he has changed his ways and never recommits.

Like I mentioned I take this topic seriously due to personal experiences, and being the father of 2 girls. IF my son ever beats a woman, he better hope he gets to jail before I get ahold of him!!!lol I have no problem with people having diff viewpoints, as long as they never beat my daughters or any female around me!!!

Oh man, the legend that is Ronnie James Dio, what a loss!!! Now I must go listen to some Holy Diver, rainbow in the dark, could of been a dreamer, too many great songs!!!!

[LordHelpOurColts]

I got a $100 on Rice

 

He outweighs her by 80lbs. I doubt it would stop him from hitting her with a closed fist though. You know, if he's going to knock out his wife I'm sure he'd have no problem with hitting Rhonda.

[Gavin]

Why? Because he treated some dogs poorly?

He didn't treat dogs poorly, He participated in making them fight to the death, Quite honestly I find that more sick then a guy losing his temper once, Most of us have been there and made a bad decision out of anger and learned from it and did not grow up to be abusers or so forth, Vick however help plot and kill and maim innocent animals, That's not to say I hold it over his head because he has not been in trouble since and has seemingly learned from those decisions...But when Vicks name comes up...as rarely as it does now I'd say that's one of the first things that has to pop into most/many peoples head subconsciously or not

[BOTT]

He didn't treat dogs poorly, He participated in making them fight to the death, Quite honestly I find that more sick then a guy losing his temper once, Most of us have been there and made a bad decision out of anger and learned from it and did not grow up to be abusers or so forth, Vick however help plot and kill and maim innocent animals, That's not to say I hold it over his head because he has not been in trouble since and has seemingly learned from those decisions...But when Vicks name comes up...as rarely as it does now I'd say that's one of the first things that has to pop into most/many peoples head subconsciously or not

And we keep animals in deplorable conditions only to be slaughtered because we think they taste good. I say that as a man who loves meat.

He didn't MAKE them fight to the death, those dogs do it on there own. He is horrible for treating them poorly.

[southwest1]

Yes indeed....

The pretrial intervention Rice benefitted from is offered to less than 1% of offenders. And according to NJ's own website outlining the program, it is intended for nonviolent "victimless" crimes.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11514871/judicial-figures-show-ray-rice-deal-offered-rarely

Interesting read PAC56 especially this part: 

 

" If convicted of the felony, Rice faced a penalty of three to five years in prison...I was stunned" about Rice's case, said Donna D'Andrea, a legal advocate for The Women's Center, a domestic violence and sexual abuse center in Linwood, New Jersey. "I'm outraged ... I believed PTI was an inappropriate response in this case."

 

In her nearly 30 years of experience, D'Andrea said she could not recall a single other aggravated assault case being accepted into the pretrial intervention program.

 

"None of it makes any sense on why this was allowed," she said. "Usually, there is a plea deal to a lesser charge so the person is put into the system and can be monitored. They didn't do that here. None of it makes any sense why this was allowed to happen this way. ... It's baffling. I don't know why the prosecutor decided to do this."

 

I imagine that the owner of the Ravens, Steve Bisciotti, made some calls & pulled some strings for Ray's benefit &, if I like a guy & he's genuinely remorseful & committed to getting professional help, I would do whatever I could to assist the guy. I wanna be clear here: I don't do this for everybody just individuals I like who know they royally screwed up & promise to put in the hard work to learn the error of their ways. 

 

When I read about backlash & outrage of special deals like this for men, I always wonder how many female domestic abusers get prosecuted say within the last 15 years in either New Jersey or Baltimore Miss  Donna D'Andrea? All I am asking for is equality in the DA's Office regardless of gender & yes women can indeed be violent & abusive as their male counterparts. 

[southwest1]

NP SW, would a boring place this would be if we all agreed, right?

Hopefully you're right and he has changed his ways and never recommits.

Like I mentioned I take this topic seriously due to personal experiences, and being the father of 2 girls. IF my son ever beats a woman, he better hope he gets to jail before I get ahold of him!!!lol I have no problem with people having diff viewpoints, as long as they never beat my daughters or any female around me!!!

Oh man, the legend that is Ronnie James Dio, what a loss!!! Now I must go listen to some Holy Diver, rainbow in the dark, could of been a dreamer, too many great songs!!!!

From a father's perspective, I completely get where you are coming from m colts m trust me. I'm no dad, but if a person savagely harmed a loved one I cared about, they better pray that law enforcement gets there before I do. I'm a laid back guy unless you threaten the safety of my family or my friends then all bets are off. I read ya man. 

 

We're cool. No problem. It's all good. I never sweat the small stuff. 

 

Yeah, I saw Ronnie live a couple of times live on stage. He's was phenomenal front man & singer. Love his voice man. When he died, I was a wreck & I immersed myself in his music for about a week paying tribute to him jamming out on percussion.  1 of the Godfathers of Metal who never gets enough respect to me. Nobody like Ronnie man. He was 1 of a kind. 

[Gavin]

And we keep animals in deplorable conditions only to be slaughtered because we think they taste good. I say that as a man who loves meat.

He didn't MAKE them fight to the death, those dogs do it on there own. He is horrible for treating them poorly.

"And we keep animals in deplorable conditions only to be slaughtered because we think they taste good"

 

Which I don't condone either(The deplorable conditions part). I say that as a man who also eats meat. I think you can eat meat yet not keep animals in deplorable conditions...Which I know also don't sound good...But even a lot of animals eat meat

[BOTT]

"And we keep animals in deplorable conditions only to be slaughtered because we think they taste good"

 

Which I don't condone either(The deplorable conditions part). I say that as a man who also eats meat. I think you can eat meat yet not keep animals in deplorable conditions...Which I know also don't sound good...But even a lot of animals eat meat

I just find it rather hypocritical of people (not u per se)outraged over Vick while they cast a blind eye on an industry the help support.

[Gavin]

I just find it rather hypocritical of people (not u per se)outraged over Vick while they cast a blind eye on an industry the help support.

Easy to turn a blind eye when you don't have it thrown in your face (The images I mean) but turning a blind eye don't make those situations any less real

[The Old Crow]

Definitely deserves one, but I'm not sure any team will stick their neck out.

[HOZER]

Definitely deserves one, but I'm not sure any team will stick their neck out.

According to ESPN the Browns are discussing giving him a shot.....lol

[The Old Crow]

According to ESPN the Browns are discussing giving him a shot.....lol

I heard that was just agent talk. I heard a Browns reporter on a Baltimore radio station denying that rumor. Rice would already have a job if he hadn't had such a bad season before the incident. That is the hard truth of it all.

Ray did a horrible thing, but his behavior previous to that was exemplary. Just a tough situation where he can't prove himself to a team, as a player , and an improved person. I wish the Ravens would bring him back, but the damage was so severe, there is no way to do that. As we've all said, these players can't afford to do these kinds of things.

[HOZER]

I heard that was just agent talk. I heard a Browns reporter on a Baltimore radio station denying that rumor. Rice would already have a job if he hadn't had such a bad season before the incident. That is the hard truth of it all.

Ray did a horrible thing, but his behavior previous to that was exemplary. Just a tough situation where he can't prove himself to a team, as a player , and an improved person. I wish the Ravens would bring him back, but the damage was so severe, there is no way to do that. As we've all said, these players can't afford to do these kinds of things.

You're right.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/08/cleveland_browns_owner_jimmy_h_24.html

[bababooey]

There are a lot of guys that got second chances for violent crimes, I would say I don't think so because I don't know if he's good enough and because the backlash would be bad for the team that gets him.

Then I joined the gym he belongs to and saw him working hard, it's funny there are women working out who know of ray rice and what he did but have zero idea that the guy stretching out next to them is Ray. I've seen him there a few times but my girlfriend's brothers met him at a bar (I should say, classy rooftop restaurant and lounge) a month ago and said he couldn't be nicer. He obviously has to watch his back now but presumably in front of no cameras he took pics, talked, hung out, etc. His wife forgave him, they both want him to go back to work and make them money. I hope he gets another chance

[RockThatBlue]

If anyone thought his play was worth the headache he would be on a roster. His 3.1 per carry at age 28 has more to do with his unemployment than being a punk.

Totally agree. If his YPC were 4.0 or higher someone would have signed him.

3.1 ypc is almost Trent Richardson bad.

[Valpo2004]

Definitely deserves one, but I'm not sure any team will stick their neck out.

 

Yeah not for the production he put up in his last year with the Ravens they won't.  And lets be perfectly honest a teams ability to put up with your off the field behavior is proportional to your talents on the field.  He's got 3 things working against him.

 

1. It was caught on tape. . . there is a visual in everyone's mind.  A picture is worth a thousand words. . . it has more impact then mere words.  As mentioned the extent that Greg Hardy apparently went is much much worse then Ray Rice.  But we can only read about how Hardy pretty much tortured his GF, but seeing Ray Rice let his drunken emotions get the better of him is on tape.  

 

2. Ray Rice was not doing well in his last year with the Ravens.

 

3. The Ravens had Forsett who up until that point was considered journeyman RB put up more then 1200 yards at a 5.4 yards per carry clip.  This created a strong impression for many I think that Rice was more or less the product of a good offensive line rather then necessarily a great RB.  The Ravens had no trouble replacing him and his production. 

 

I would note that if you look at Forsett's YPC stats they are really really good all but one year.  It almost makes me think this was a guy who's actually pretty good the whole time but just didn't get much opportunity for some reason.

[Jason_]

Yeah, he deserves a second chance. He's kept a clean profile thus far.

 

Congratulations go out to Ray Rice for not beating up his GF since the last time he beat up his GF.

 

This thread seems a bit off to me.

 

Then don't read it

 

Why? Because he treated some dogs poorly?

 

And we keep animals in deplorable conditions only to be slaughtered because we think they taste good. I say that as a man who loves meat.

He didn't MAKE them fight to the death, those dogs do it on there own. He is horrible for treating them poorly.

 

That is simply not correct.  Don't believe me?  Go get 2 dogs, hell even 2 pit bulls from your local animal shelter.  Put them in a pit together and watch what happens.  You may get incredibly "lucky" (for lack of a better word) and get them to go at it for a few minutes, but they're most likely not going to rip each other to shreds like fighting dogs do.  Fighting dogs have to be trained, and I have had the misfortune of speaking directly with someone who worked with fighting dogs.  He proudly detailed how he would give the dog multiple hits of LSD (up to 7 hits at a time) and then lock them for 8+ hours in a darkened closet with nothing but a strobe light.  This drives them pretty damn well insane, and THAT'S how he got his dogs ready for fighting.

[CR91]

Yeah not for the production he put up in his last year with the Ravens they won't.  And lets be perfectly honest a teams ability to put up with your off the field behavior is proportional to your talents on the field.  He's got 3 things working against him.

 

1. It was caught on tape. . . there is a visual in everyone's mind.  A picture is worth a thousand words. . . it has more impact then mere words.  As mentioned the extent that Greg Hardy apparently went is much much worse then Ray Rice.  But we can only read about how Hardy pretty much tortured his GF, but seeing Ray Rice let his drunken emotions get the better of him is on tape.  

 

2. Ray Rice was not doing well in his last year with the Ravens.

 

3. The Ravens had Forsett who up until that point was considered journeyman RB put up more then 1200 yards at a 5.4 yards per carry clip.  This created a strong impression for many I think that Rice was more or less the product of a good offensive line rather then necessarily a great RB.  The Ravens had no trouble replacing him and his production. 

 

I would note that if you look at Forsett's YPC stats they are really really good all but one year.  It almost makes me think this was a guy who's actually pretty good the whole time but just didn't get much opportunity for some reason.

 

kubick's zone running scheme can make any RB look good ala ben tate

[Valpo2004]

And we keep animals in deplorable conditions only to be slaughtered because we think they taste good. I say that as a man who loves meat.

He didn't MAKE them fight to the death, those dogs do it on there own. He is horrible for treating them poorly.

 

I agree with the first.

 

With the second to be fair, raising a dog to fight and teaching it to fight is pretty close to making it fight.  It's not an adult human, it can't make rational decisions about what to do outside of the influence of people.

 

It would be like if I started teaching my children how to be pick pockets and steal things and encouraged them or rewarded them for doing so at the same time punishing them if they didn't steal enough and then claiming "I didn't make them steal things, they did that on their own."  That's bull, much like children up to a certain age animals will do what they have been taught to do.  

 

If I teach my children to steal, reward them for stealing and punish them for not stealing. . . they are going to steal.  

[Solon]

Congratulations go out to Ray Rice for not beating up his GF since the last time he beat up his GF.

 

 

Then don't read it

 

 

 

That is simply not correct.  Don't believe me?  Go get 2 dogs, hell even 2 pit bulls from your local animal shelter.  Put them in a pit together and watch what happens.  You may get incredibly "lucky" (for lack of a better word) and get them to go at it for a few minutes, but they're most likely not going to rip each other to shreds like fighting dogs do.  Fighting dogs have to be trained, and I have had the misfortune of speaking directly with someone who worked with fighting dogs.  He proudly detailed how he would give the dog multiple hits of LSD (up to 7 hits at a time) and then lock them for 8+ hours in a darkened closet with nothing but a strobe light.  This drives them pretty damn well insane, and THAT'S how he got his dogs ready for fighting.

In my opinion, he deserves a second chance.

[OffensivelyPC]

And we keep animals in deplorable conditions only to be slaughtered because we think they taste good. I say that as a man who loves meat.

He didn't MAKE them fight to the death, those dogs do it on there own. He is horrible for treating them poorly.

Eh, that's not all they do to those dogs.  Yeah he treated them poorly, but he was in a ring with people who did things to get them to fight.  It's not like they just put them in a box and waited until one died.  I mean, I'm not one to say that Michael Vick is the worst criminal out there and I think what he did, even if deplorable, is not as bad as some people make it out to be.  But I won't say that he didn't have an active hand, whether directly or indirectly, in those dogs dying either.  They were conditioned to fight to the death.

[BOTT]

Congratulations go out to Ray Rice for not beating up his GF since the last time he beat up his GF.

Then don't read it

That is simply not correct. Don't believe me? Go get 2 dogs, hell even 2 pit bulls from your local animal shelter. Put them in a pit together and watch what happens. You may get incredibly "lucky" (for lack of a better word) and get them to go at it for a few minutes, but they're most likely not going to rip each other to shreds like fighting dogs do. Fighting dogs have to be trained, and I have had the misfortune of speaking directly with someone who worked with fighting dogs. He proudly detailed how he would give the dog multiple hits of LSD (up to 7 hits at a time) and then lock them for 8+ hours in a darkened closet with nothing but a strobe light. This drives them pretty damn well insane, and THAT'S how he got his dogs ready for fighting.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You talked to a a fool or liar....or likely both.

[BOTT]

Eh, that's not all they do to those dogs.  Yeah he treated them poorly, but he was in a ring with people who did things to get them to fight.  It's not like they just put them in a box and waited until one died.  I mean, I'm not one to say that Michael Vick is the worst criminal out there and I think what he did, even if deplorable, is not as bad as some people make it out to be.  But I won't say that he didn't have an active hand, whether directly or indirectly, in those dogs dying either.  They were conditioned to fight to the death.

How does one condition a dog to fight to the death? This is what the humane society/aspca came up with after they got bad publicity after killing puppies bred for fighting because they knew that had been bred for hundreds of years for it....not trained for it. It was their policy to kill every dog/puppy/pregnant female dog if they found the person has used dogs for fighting.

[Gavin]

You have no idea what you are talking about. You talked to a a fool or liar....or likely both.

The majority have to be provoked or feel threatened....They just don't attack for no reason

[BOTT]

I agree with the first.

 

With the second to be fair, raising a dog to fight and teaching it to fight is pretty close to making it fight.  It's not an adult human, it can't make rational decisions about what to do outside of the influence of people.

 

It would be like if I started teaching my children how to be pick pockets and steal things and encouraged them or rewarded them for doing so at the same time punishing them if they didn't steal enough and then claiming "I didn't make them steal things, they did that on their own."  That's bull, much like children up to a certain age animals will do what they have been taught to do.  

 

If I teach my children to steal, reward them for stealing and punish them for not stealing. . . they are going to steal.

How do you teach a dog to fight? These hillbillies must be some amazing trainers.

[Gavin]

How does one condition a dog to fight to the death? This is what the humane society/aspca came up with after they got bad publicity after killing puppies bred for fighting because they knew that had been bred for hundreds of years for it....not trained for it. It was their policy to kill every dog/puppy/pregnant female dog if they found the person has used dogs for fighting.

"It was their policy to kill every dog/puppy/pregnant female dog if they found the person has used dogs for fighting."

 

Bad policy          

[BOTT]

The majority have to be provoked or feel threatened....They just don't attack for no reason

Black Labs? Sure. But that's not what I'm talking about.

[BOTT]

"It was their policy to kill every dog/puppy/pregnant female dog if they found the person has used dogs for fighting."

 

Bad policy

Captain obvious

[Gavin]

How do you teach a dog to fight? These hillbillies must be some amazing trainers.

They aren't teaching them to fight exactly. What they are doing is teaching them to be aggressive by means of different types of painful and sadistic ways(In other words the dog responds aggressively because he is being abused so defend himself/herself he becomes aggressive)....Some are bred to fight...Meaning raised from birth to fight

[Gavin]

Black Labs? Sure. But that's not what I'm talking about.

What does black labs have to do with what I said

[Buck Showalter]

At the least, it means they don't take it seriously. If Ray Rice hit someone's mother on here, they sure wouldn't want to give him a second chance. Funny how different it is when it affects you personally. Everyone that wants to give him a 2nd chance on here just wants to see him play again and is giving him the benefit of the doubt because he's an athlete, which is the problem in the first place.

Ha, right, but while my Moms is known to get a little wild & crazy every once in awhile, she doesn't get into a lot of drunken arguments with "Ballerz" in casinos at 2:30 in the morning...

 

I mean I don't go to work on a pig farm & get real surprised when I step in pig %$#@...

 

I find Rice detestable, but that's why I find Peterson, "detester-abler", the kid didn't have a say or choice in the matter, Ray's girl has, & thusly made some questionable decisions.

 

Hopefully karma doles Rice out his justice & teams just pass on him...

[BOTT]

They aren't teaching them to fight exactly. What they are doing is teaching them to be aggressive by means of different types of painful and sadistic ways(In other words the dog responds aggressively because he is being abused so defend himself/herself he becomes aggressive)....Some are bred to fight...Meaning raised from birth to fight

Wow, you can regurgitate PETA propaganda very well. There isn't a lick of truth to anything you said. I'm not attempting to defend dog fighting, but what the humane society/ peta, etc. say is complete nonsense......but hey they get people to donate a lot of money....and people like you to repeat their nonsense.

[Gavin]

Wow, you can regurgitate PETA propaganda very well. There isn't a lick of truth to anything you said. I'm not attempting to defend dog fighting, but what the humane society/ peta, etc. say is complete nonsense......but hey they get people to donate a lot of money....and people like you to repeat their nonsense.

You really believe there are dog breeds out there that are aggressive? Every dog of a particular breed?

[Superman]

You have no idea what you are talking about. You talked to a a fool or liar....or likely both.

 

?

 

Are you serious? I'm not saying Vick should be drawn and quartered, either, but I think you're missing the facts here. I wonder if you really believe that dogfighting is really just standing around watching a couple of dogs fight each other. It's not.

 

There was cruel punishment to condition the dogs to fight. Then they staged preliminary fights to see which dogs were "good fighters." The ones that weren't good fighters, or just wouldn't fight, were killed. Wait, not just killed -- drowned, electrocuted, strangled, hanged... if they were lucky, they were just shot. One of Vick's dogs was reportedly slammed to the ground several times until it died, in the process breaking the dog's back and neck. Oftentimes, these executions are performed for the benefit of the spectators at these events; it's part of the sport.

 

Females are bred and conditioned to be so vicious that they are confined to rape boxes or strapped to rape stands so that they can't attack the males who breed with them. And the breeding is critical; after all, so many dogs die or are killed in association with dogfighting that you have to have new dogs to replenish your stable. Rape stands, also called breeding stands, usually aren't used by breeders.

 

Back to training -- smaller dogs or other animals, like cats, often family pets which are stolen, are used as "bait animals." They're essentially throw to the wolves, used to get the fighting dogs ready. In other words, the fighting dogs rip the bait animals to shreds. Dogs were weighed down with heavy chains and run on incline treadmills to the point of exhaustion. 

 

Many of the fighting dogs are given narcotics to handle the pain inflicted during the sometimes 1-2 hour fights. Before the fights, many are injected with stimulants and performance enhancers, primarily to keep the dogs fighting even after they were injured. After the fights, they're given anti-inflammatory medication to reduce swelling, antibiotics to reduce infection, and steroids to promote muscle repair. Their injures are often treated by amateurs -- stitches, bone breaks, etc. The ear cropping and tail docking is often done by amateurs under inhumane conditions.

 

Over the years, they killed hundreds or thousands of dogs, and watched other hundreds or thousands of dogs be killed by their trained fighting dogs.

 

Michael Vick's dogfighting operation -- and every dogfighting operation -- goes well beyond 'treating some dogs poorly.' 

 

Again, I'm not campaigning against Michael Vick, and never did. But I believe you are severely mistaken about this. 

 

http://aldf.org/resources/laws-cases/animal-fighting-case-study-michael-vick/

http://aldf.org/resources/laws-cases/animal-fighting-facts/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/07/michael_vicks_rape_stand.html

http://www.aspcapro.org/resource/disaster-cruelty-animal-cruelty-animal-fighting/dogfighting-faq

[Vance]

I think he does, yeah.

 

Just like Hope Solo got another chance.

 

Oh wait, she was never punished the first time.  Good thing she doesn't play in the NFL (and isn't a man).

[BOTT]

You really believe there are dog breeds out there that are aggressive? Every dog of a particular breed?

No, I strictly talking about pitbulls that have been bred for years to fight. And not the ones you can buy for $150 in the local paper.

[BOTT]

?

Are you serious? I'm not saying Vick should be drawn and quartered, either, but I think you're missing the facts here. I wonder if you really believe that dogfighting is really just standing around watching a couple of dogs fight each other. It's not.

There was cruel punishment to condition the dogs to fight. Then they staged preliminary fights to see which dogs were "good fighters." The ones that weren't good fighters, or just wouldn't fight, were killed. Wait, not just killed -- drowned, electrocuted, strangled, hanged... if they were lucky, they were just shot. One of Vick's dogs was reportedly slammed to the ground several times until it died, in the process breaking the dog's back and neck.

Females are bred and conditioned to be so vicious that they are confined to rape boxes or strapped to rape stands so that they can't attack the males who breed with them. And the breeding is critical; after all, so many dogs die or are killed in association with dogfighting that you have to have new dogs to replenish your stable. Rape stands, also called breeding stands, usually aren't used by breeders.

Back to training -- smaller dogs or other animals, like cats, often family pets which are stolen, are used as "bait animals." They're essentially throw to the wolves, used to get the fighting dogs ready. In other words, the fighting dogs rip the bait animals to shreds. Dogs were weighed down with heavy chains and run on incline treadmills to the point of exhaustion

Many of the fighting dogs are given narcotics to handle the pain inflicted during the sometimes 1-2 hour fights. Before the fights, many are injected with stimulants and performance enhancers, primarily to keep the dogs fighting even after they were injured. After the fights, they're given anti-inflammatory medication to reduce swelling, antibiotics to reduce infection, and steroids to promote muscle repair. Their injures are often treated by amateurs -- stitches, bone breaks, etc. The ear cropping and tail docking is often done by amateurs under inhumane conditions.

Over the years, they killed hundreds or thousands of dogs, and watched other hundreds or thousands of dogs be killed by their trained fighting dogs.

Michael Vick's dogfighting operation -- and every dogfighting operation -- goes well beyond 'treating some dogs poorly.'

Again, I'm not campaigning against Michael Vick, and never did. But I believe you are severely mistaken about this.

http://aldf.org/resources/laws-cases/animal-fighting-case-study-michael-vick/

http://aldf.org/resources/laws-cases/animal-fighting-facts/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/07/michael_vicks_rape_stand.html

http://www.aspcapro.org/resource/disaster-cruelty-animal-cruelty-animal-fighting/dogfighting-faq

I already stated Micheal Vick was dope for mistreating the dogs. Having said that, I'm sorry, but you know nothing of the "facts" when it comes to this breed of dog. A lot of what you stated is more propaganda.....and if people are doing such things it's because they saw a peta spokesman on hard copy trying to drum up donations. Lawrence Taylor may have done cocaine before games, that doesn't mean all football players do it.

Not denying that dog fighting is bloody, violent, often cruel "sport", but I have zero patience for propaganda by non profits trying to make a buck.