Deflategate merge -- pending appeal results

[SteelCityColt]

No it wasn't it. It detailed the Jets game from earlier in the season and Brady's texts from that game where you know he asked for the balls to be at 12.5 because the refs inflated them to 16 psi.

 

And please with the fined stuff. That is a complete joke and you know it.

 

I know the league believes it had the goods based on the flawed Wells report. We will see if they still hold to that with this appeal ruling and then potential court case before an actual independent judge if Brady takes it that far.

 

Why is it? Are you saying it's a joke for what he got fined for? Or the fact the league treat a previous fine as a previous offence?

[dw49]

When I went to the personal site it would only let me go back on the last 5 or 6 comments made. We all pretty much remember what we said anyway.

Yes.. that's all I've ever been able to bring up.

[amfootball]

Why is it? Are you saying it's a joke for what he got fined for? Or the fact the league treat a previous fine as a previous offence?

It was an in game foul that they felt was flagrant hence the fine. So no it was not counted as a previous offense. And again never in the history of the league has a player been so much as fined much less suspended for any type of ball tampering violation. So there is that too.

[jvan1973]

It was an in game foul that they felt was flagrant hence the fine. So no it was not counted as a previous offense. And again never in the history of the league has a player been so much as fined much less suspended for any type of ball tampering violation. So there is that too.

Before Goodell a player had never been suspended for spousal or child abuse either. The punishments are to prevent the actions from occurring again. Skirting the rules and trying to cover it up is arrogant and bush league. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time

[amfootball]

Before Goodell a player had never been suspended for spousal or child abuse either. The punishments are to prevent the actions from occurring again. Skirting the rules and trying to cover it up is arrogant and bush league. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time

Sure but rule #1 is prove the violation occurred otherwise there is no cover up or skirting of anything. The league never proved it so the rest is total bunk.

[amfootball]

Mike Florio: Goodell Underling(s) Were Out to Get the Patriots

 

Podcast. This is lengthy but worth the time to listen, http://thebiglead.com/2015/06/24/mike-florio-goodell-underlings-were-out-to-get-the-patriots/

[dw49]

Thanks for going back and looking. I really can't figure out how to search this site.

 

That is what I remember you saying. I think for most of us back then it was no big deal. The game was a blow out and as you said tampering is hard to prove and violation carries a $25 k fine that league has never even imposed in most cases in its history. Just a warning or a small team fine. I just keep thinking that the league really should have settled this back them in Jan. They could have just fined the Pats then and moved on instead of Wells and 100 days and a report that is a joke on the science part of trying to prove the tampering.

 

 

A former mod helped us out.

 

Go to the profile page and click on "content." It shows up on the upper right . Then go to the left and click on "posts." I thought I posted a thread on it in this forum but maybe it was deleted.

[amfootball]

A former mod helped us out.

 

Go to the profile page and click on "content." It shows up on the upper left . Then go to the right and click on "posts." I thought I posted a thread on it in this forum but maybe it was deleted.

Ah, that seems simple enough. I will try that from now on. But you and I are always on the up and up with each other with things so no worries. I probably have all your posts committed to my memory anyways.

[SteelCityColt]

It was an in game foul that they felt was flagrant hence the fine. So no it was not counted as a previous offense. And again never in the history of the league has a player been so much as fined much less suspended for any type of ball tampering violation. So there is that too.

 

In game, out of game... it's still a fine handed out by the NFL so yes it's a previous offence. 

 

Do I think it should or did indeed influence the current proceedings. No. But it's important to get facts as correct as we can in this manner as there has been a whole heap of people misrepresenting things in this topic.

[jvan1973]

Sure but rule #1 is prove the violation occurred otherwise there is no cover up or skirting of anything. The league never proved it so the rest is total bunk.

Actually, according to the league they did. Thus the suspension

[jvan1973]

He would get an injunction on the suspension and be able to play until the case is heard and ruled on. Still risky as he could sit games later this season or even next year depending on how long it all goes. I do hope cooler minds prevail on both sides and this thing is over with the appeal but I do not blame him either for taking this to the wall either. He has nothing left to prove on the football field.

An injunction would have to be granted first. You guys usually leave that part out

[amfootball]

An injunction would have to be granted first. You guys usually leave that part out

I said he would need to get that injunction. It is assumed he will by most legal analysts. Vilma got one and never missed a game.

[Crush22]

From Schefter today:

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 39m39 minutes ago

Patriots owner Robert Kraft, now out of country, wrote an affidavit to be introduced into today's appeal, supporting Tom Brady's character.

Left the country AND his QB high and dry. Even Krafty knows he's guilty. That's why he accepted the punishment. If Brady did the same, nobody would be talking about this right now.

[cdgacoltsfan]

ok I don't recall what he's been fined for, but I'm sure it's happened. What I'm trying to say is this...the NFL is filled with offenders of various stripes. You've got your "Rice/Peterson/Hardy/Roethlisburger/etc" off-field stuff...you've got your PED users...and then you've got your "guy who wore his socks too high/had a logo on during a press conference/name the silly minutiae type stuff the NFL fines players for" type of offenders. Brady has been nowhere near the "serious offender" categories. He's never made the league look bad before, and in fact has been an excellent ambassador for the game to date.

..lets not forget the time when, at their own wedding, Tommy and Giseles body guards unloaded their guns on the unarmed paparazzi ..i believe their goons got 5 years for attempted murder.....what an excellent ambassador !!!!

[bababooey]

I said he would need to get that injunction. It is assumed he will by most legal analysts. Vilma got one and never missed a game.

Vilma didn't try to rig the game to his benefit.

[amfootball]

Vilma didn't try to rig the game to his benefit.

lol. He only tried to hurt people for money.

[bababooey]

lol. He only tried to hurt people for money.

Again, he didn't attempt to rig the game to his benefit.

[crazycolt1]

Yes, I know. My point was that never in the history of the league have they ever imposed anything more than then $25 k fine. And the Pats are not the only repeat offenders either in the history of the NFL. And the violations are completely different. Spygate was on Bill not Brady. And the Wells report completely exonerated the team and Bill in the report so this is on Brady which should be treated a first time offender. So again I am calling complete and total bunk on all of that. This should have been settled in Jan especially since the league was not able to actually prove the violation even occurred. They did go hunting for a history and found nada so there is that too.

All this could have been avoided had Brady cooperated. That is what you keep over looking. No matter what the infraction is he got the 4 game suspension from not cooperating. That is what he IS guilty of and no report is needed to know that.

[crazycolt1]

I said he would need to get that injunction. It is assumed he will by most legal analysts. Vilma got one and never missed a game.

Vilma got one for a criminal case, not an in house matter. You keep comparing this case with others? This case has zero to do with other cases. The reason Goodell has problems with some other suspensions is a player getting double penalty for a criminal case. This case is an in house matter and is taken care in house.

[dw49]

Vilma got one for a criminal case, not an in house matter. You keep comparing this case with others? This case has zero to do with other cases. The reason Goodell has problems with some other suspensions is a player getting double penalty for a criminal case. This case is an in house matter and is taken care in house.

 

Interesting thought ... 

[Superman]

Vilma got one for a criminal case, not an in house matter. You keep comparing this case with others? This case has zero to do with other cases. The reason Goodell has problems with some other suspensions is a player getting double penalty for a criminal case. This case is an in house matter and is taken care in house.

 

Interesting thought ... 

 

But not accurate. There were no criminal charges for Vilma related to Bountygate, and I don't believe the grounds for any legal challenge to NFL punishment has been double penalty from the NFL and criminal justice system. I'm pretty sure that's not even a thing. The Bountygate suspensions were overturned by the courts due to technicalities, and then by Tagliabue due to myopia. 

[dw49]

But not accurate. There were no criminal charges for Vilma related to Bountygate, and I don't believe the grounds for any legal challenge to NFL punishment has been double penalty from the NFL and criminal justice system. I'm pretty sure that's not even a thing. The Bountygate suspensions were overturned by the courts due to technicalities, and then by Tagliabue due to myopia. 

 

 

Interesting but not true is what ? Poop ?

[Superman]

Interesting but not true is what ? Poop ?

 

Not necessarily. Fiction is often entertaining. 

[crazycolt1]

But not accurate. There were no criminal charges for Vilma related to Bountygate, and I don't believe the grounds for any legal challenge to NFL punishment has been double penalty from the NFL and criminal justice system. I'm pretty sure that's not even a thing. The Bountygate suspensions were overturned by the courts due to technicalities, and then by Tagliabue due to myopia. 

I had forgot what Vilma was suspended for but my point was some Patriot fans want to compare this case with others. My meaning to the original comment was when a player is found guilty in a criminal court it is tough for Goodell to pass out more judgment on top of what the criminal court has done. It's like getting two convictions for the same crime and getting double sentences. The jest of my comment was Brady's infraction was so called in house there for Goodell is the judge, jury and in charge of passing out the sentence.

[Superman]

I had forgot what Vilma was suspended for but my point was some Patriot fans want to compare this case with others. My meaning to the original comment was when a player is found guilty in a criminal court it is tough for Goodell to pass out more judgment on top of what the criminal court has done. It's like getting two convictions for the same crime and getting double sentences. The jest of my comment was Brady's infraction was so called in house there for Goodell is the judge, jury and in charge of passing out the sentence.

 

That's sensible, wouldn't you think? This authority conferred upon Goodell is actually collectively bargained, so it would stand to reason that it would be largely untouchable. 

 

Yet, courts have undermined the authority of the commissioner several times in issues of player discipline. It makes no sense to me. And what Tagliabue did with the Bountygate case was even worse.

 

All that said, you're right, this isn't like other cases. People who are arguing against the league's authority to hand down this punishment on Brady are largely being unreasonable, and that's just the nice way of saying what I really think...

[Bad Morty]

Again, he didn't attempt to rig the game to his benefit.

yeah...knocking out the opponent's star players doesn't benefit anyone...lol

 

Tell you what - you set the football to whatever PSI you like and we'll deliberately injure Luck. Who gets the advantage there?

[dw49]

I had forgot what Vilma was suspended for but my point was some Patriot fans want to compare this case with others. My meaning to the original comment was when a player is found guilty in a criminal court it is tough for Goodell to pass out more judgment on top of what the criminal court has done. It's like getting two convictions for the same crime and getting double sentences. The jest of my comment was Brady's infraction was so called in house there for Goodell is the judge, jury and in charge of passing out the sentence.

 

I agree with your thinking crazy one

[Bubbz]

lol. Are you saying the only reason to believe number one is that? Really? How about the shotty league investigation on top of the shotty Wells report? How about the bogus Mort report on the ball pressure that set this thing ablaze that the league still has not addressed? I mean let's be real here. This whole thing has stunk to high heaven on the league's part from day one when they were given a heads up by your GM and chose to ignore it and let the conference title game be compromised for an entire half. So if I have to hear this hypocritical league say one more time that they care about the integrity of the game, I am going to puke. I also believe any lasting stain from this entire mess will be on the league than Brady whether or not he serves any games.

" the deflator"

Acceptance is going to be key for you

[OffensivelyPC]

That's sensible, wouldn't you think? This authority conferred upon Goodell is actually collectively bargained, so it would stand to reason that it would be largely untouchable. 

 

Yet, courts have undermined the authority of the commissioner several times in issues of player discipline. It makes no sense to me. And what Tagliabue did with the Bountygate case was even worse.

 

All that said, you're right, this isn't like other cases. People who are arguing against the league's authority to hand down this punishment on Brady are largely being unreasonable, and that's just the nice way of saying what I really think...

What's truly hilarious about it is the NFLPA is charging that the NFL didn't vet punishment via the proper channels because Goodell should have laid down the suspension and not Troy Vincent.  Then in the same breath, charging that Goodell should recuse himself because he can't be impartial.  In other words, "you didn't follow the CBA, so there's a due process issue, but you shouldn't follow it here regardless of your rights..." 

 

I can't even...

[Superman]

What's truly hilarious about it is the NFLPA is charging that the NFL didn't vet punishment via the proper channels because Goodell should have laid down the suspension and not Troy Vincent.  Then in the same breath, charging that Goodell should recuse himself because he can't be impartial.  In other words, "you didn't follow the CBA, so there's a due process issue, but you shouldn't follow it here regardless of your rights..." 

 

I can't even...

 

Craziness. And I think the CBA gives the commissioner authority to appoint someone to administer discipline anyways. 

[Gramz]

What's truly hilarious about it is the NFLPA is charging that the NFL didn't vet punishment via the proper channels because Goodell should have laid down the suspension and not Troy Vincent. Then in the same breath, charging that Goodell should recuse himself because he can't be impartial. In other words, "you didn't follow the CBA, so there's a due process issue, but you shouldn't follow it here regardless of your rights..."

I can't even...

the reasoning boggles the mind

And I'm not sure what to expect from the Appeal hearing Tuesday. Ive been seeing all kinds of conflicting reports of what went on. I have to believe Roger sticks to the initial ruling.

[amfootball]

Craziness. And I think the CBA gives the commissioner authority to appoint someone to administer discipline anyways. 

In matters of integrity of the game the CBA specifically states that the commish had to hand out the punishment. The PA cited the specific article in its letter to the league before the appeal. What is interesting here is Roger said he gave authority to Vincent to hand out the punishment so that way he could hear the appeal. The letter sent to Brady came from Vincent. But when pressed on this issue Roger said he gave his approval for the punishment so it seems he wants to have this both ways. I do think per your previous post that if this does end up in federal court the league yet again will have failed to follow the CBA and the suspension will be revoked. There is also the issue of fair and consistent punishment as well that they have also violated with its unprecedented punishment for ball tampering.

[amfootball]

All this could have been avoided had Brady cooperated. That is what you keep over looking. No matter what the infraction is he got the 4 game suspension from not cooperating. That is what he IS guilty of and no report is needed to know that.

Yeah that seems to be a sticky point here. I don't know how that will ultimately be evaluated when/if it goes to court. Wells said Brady and the team substantially cooperated in his report. He spent the entire day answering Wells questions and did so again under oath at the appeal. So I am not sure how much his phone holds water here given they had the phone records of the ball boys. And again the Wells report was not able to actually prove tampering which is where this all falls apart IMO. I guess we will see ...

[Superman]

In matters of integrity of the game the CBA specifically states that the commish had to hand out the punishment. The PA cited the specific article in its letter to the league before the appeal. What is interesting here is Roger said he gave authority to Vincent to hand out the punishment so that way he could hear the appeal. The letter sent to Brady came from Vincent. But when pressed on this issue Roger said he gave his approval for the punishment so it seems he wants to have this both ways. I do think per your previous post that if this does end up in federal court the league yet again will have failed to follow the CBA and the suspension will be revoked. There is also the issue of fair and consistent punishment as well that they have also violated with its unprecedented punishment for ball tampering.

 

Cool story...

[amfootball]

the reasoning boggles the mind

And I'm not sure what to expect from the Appeal hearing yesterday. Ive been seeing all kinds of conflicting reports of what went on. I have to believe Roger sticks to the initial ruling.

I agree Gramz. No way Roger can even knock off one game without undermining the Wells report and the penalties on the Pats. He keeps it at 4.

[shakedownstreet]

^ just bumping this dead thread back to the top ^

[Bad Morty]

Jason Cole is apparently reporting that the NFL is now acknowledging that the science doesn't hold up and would be willing to cut a deal with Brady if he agrees to not take them to court that would essentially exonerate him but leave in place a smaller penalty for not cooperating with the investigation.

[OffensivelyPC]

Craziness. And I think the CBA gives the commissioner authority to appoint someone to administer discipline anyways. 

Bottom line is, the suspension is given by the NFL and the NFL hears the appeal.  Which face is doing what doesn't really matter because ultimately, it's all coming fromthe same person.  Really, what the NFLPA is complaining about is who signed the letter to Tom Brady.  That's it...

 

the reasoning boggles the mind

And I'm not sure what to expect from the Appeal hearing Tuesday. Ive been seeing all kinds of conflicting reports of what went on. I have to believe Roger sticks to the initial ruling.

Whatever happens, it's pretty clear to me that the NFL isn't going to win in the view of the public.  They might as well stick to their guns.  Because if it's 4 games, people will compare it to guys like Ray Rice or PEDs (who's the bigger cheater?).  If it's 2 games, it will be compared to suspensions for on the field violations that threatened player safety (deflated footballs aren't as bad as trying to hurt someone).  If it's 0 games, the NFL is spineless.  Pick your poison...

 

In matters of integrity of the game the CBA specifically states that the commish had to hand out the punishment. The PA cited the specific article in its letter to the league before the appeal. What is interesting here is Roger said he gave authority to Vincent to hand out the punishment so that way he could hear the appeal. The letter sent to Brady came from Vincent. But when pressed on this issue Roger said he gave his approval for the punishment so it seems he wants to have this both ways. I do think per your previous post that if this does end up in federal court the league yet again will have failed to follow the CBA and the suspension will be revoked. There is also the issue of fair and consistent punishment as well that they have also violated with its unprecedented punishment for ball tampering.

That's not how it works.  It just starts over, see Bountygate.

[crazycolt1]

Yeah that seems to be a sticky point here. I don't know how that will ultimately be evaluated when/if it goes to court. Wells said Brady and the team substantially cooperated in his report. He spent the entire day answering Wells questions and did so again under oath at the appeal. So I am not sure how much his phone holds water here given they had the phone records of the ball boys. And again the Wells report was not able to actually prove tampering which is where this all falls apart IMO. I guess we will see ...

My point is it makes no difference at this point what Brady's phone records say or don't say. Till Brady produces the evidence that disproves what the investigation shows then I would be really surprised if Goodell changes anything. In an earlier statement I brought up the fact that the overturning of Goodells past penalties were criminal cases. This is not a criminal case so Goodell has total control over the punishment. The past cases that have been overturned have been cases where the accused have received a punishment other than what the NFL imposed. An arbitrator decided that the criminal penalties were enough punishment and it was deemed that was enough and the NFL shouldn't add more. This case is not close to those other cases. It is an in house case so to say. From what I can think of there is nothing to overturn from an outside arbitrator because there is no outside arbitrator in this case. If this by chance does go to a higher level then the courts will have the authority to subpoena Brady's phone, the records and the two equipment men. IMO that is why Kraft decided not to continue with taking this to the next level. In your comment you said the Wells report was not able to actually prove tampering but Brady has yet to disprove the report by producing evidence showing there was no tampering. We can all speculate and have an opinion on exactly what happened or didn't happen but one thing that remains the same, Brady's choice to not to cooperate caused this whole chain reaction.

[Superman]

Bottom line is, the suspension is given by the NFL and the NFL hears the appeal.  Which face is doing what doesn't really matter because ultimately, it's all coming fromthe same person.  Really, what the NFLPA is complaining about is who signed the letter to Tom Brady.  That's it...

 

I could easily see the courts siding with the NFLPA on that issue. It's stupid, but sometimes legal proceedings and courts are stupid. You know that better than I do.