Decline Of The Colts Began Far Before Peyton Went Down...

[ViriLudant]

Great article...

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/12477/the-collapse-of-the-colts-has-been-years-in-the-making

[WSO]

Article is cherrypicking, basically saying the demise of the Colts was because Gonzo is injured, Brown didn't pan out, and Ugoh is a bust and everyone in the '07 draft is gone.

What it doesn't state is how brilliant the 08 and 09 draft classes were. Garcon made Gonzo expendable, drafting Tamme who has become a very solid backup to Clark especially when Clark went down, and Wheeler who is starting at LB. It simply says "the 2008 selections were slightly better.

It ignores the fact that that in 2009 the Colts drafted a solid starter in Powers who made an immediate impact, Austin Collie who had a brilliant rookie season and fits in the offense very well. This guy lead the nfl in receptions and yards before he had his first concussion last year.

Article doesn't mention what a steal the Colts got in Pat Angerer, Kavell Conner.

Don't get me started on this years picks.

Just because Brown, Ugoh, Hughes and Gonzo didn't pan out doesn't mean the Colts started declining. This is a team 2 years removed from the SB.

He is also over-exaggerating the 10-6 record. 4 of the 6 losses last year were by 3 points or less. Only one game was a blowout (vs. Chargers). The season was plagued by injuries.

[The Fish]

Some of this is right, some of it isn't. If your going to blame Peyton Manning's absence, and not mention Jim Caldwell and Clyde Christensan, Coyer, ect. what's the point. I'd say that between Painter, Collins and O we've had some of the worst QB play in the game and some of the worst coaching, we all know that's really key to the NFL. There is really a lot of talent on the team still, I'd say with a down the middle qb this team would have been .500 or so. Peyton has through out his career been a guy who make's play's and in doing so, makes play makers. And when did guys like Mathis, Freeney, Bethea, become scrap heap type talent. The run down of Chris's drafting is accurate, he sucks.

[oldunclemark]

Some of this is right, some of it isn't. If your going to blame Peyton Manning's absence, and not mention Jim Caldwell and Clyde Christensan, Coyer, ect. what's the point. I'd say that between Painter, Collins and O we've had some of the worst QB play in the game and some of the worst coaching, we all know that's really key to the NFL. There is really a lot of talent on the team still, I'd say with a down the middle qb this team would have been .500 or so. Peyton has through out his career been a guy who make's play's and in doing so, makes play makers. And when did guys like Mathis, Freeney, Bethea, become scrap heap type talent. The run down of Chris's drafting is accurate, he sucks.

But to prove a decline rather than just an anomoly, we have to wait until next season...dont we?

If Manning's return (and Brackett and Bullitt) return us to 10-6...then truthfully there was no decline..........

..and officially we were only 16-3 in 2009.....not the 19-0 many feel we 'earned'

Its easy to make a trend out of history..the hard thing is to see a trend in its midst

[dn4192]

All teams have peaks and valley's so I guess yes from 2009 where they won 14 to 2010 where they only won 10 there was a slight dip. This season doesn't count, because there is not one person here who believes that if Peyton wasn't missing this team wouldn't be a 10-12 win team this year again. We are bad this year because the franchise made a horrible choice in whom the backup QB would be and for whatever reason a refusal to switch earlier to Dan and for some reason a non decision to dumb down the offense. To me what has happen to the Colts is a fluke, not a decline. A decline is what happen to say the 49ers as they got older and changed players over and didn't make good decisions and were/have been bad for a long while since the Montana/Young era's.

[Coltssouth]

And when did guys like Mathis, Freeney, Bethea, become scrap heap type talent.

+1 from me for that comment. I totally agree.

[IndyTrav]

Article is cherrypicking

What it doesn't state is how brilliant the 08 and 09 draft classes were. Garcon made Gonzo expendable, drafting Tamme who has become a very solid backup to Clark especially when Clark went down, and Wheeler who is starting at LB. It simply says "the 2008 selections were slightly better.

So of the 23 Draft Picks we've had from 07-09 10 are still on the team. Less than half. Not only that but lets break down those ten shall we.

07-None

08-Pollak (marginal at best), Wheeler (Ok), Tamme (marginal), Garcon (OK)

09-Brown (scrub), Mola (scrub), Collie (ok), Painter (scub), Mcafee (Good) Powers (ok)

So of the ten, we have 3 scrubs, 2 2nd/3rd stringers, 1 avg LB/CB, 2 avg WR, and a good Punter.

And you think this was cherry picked?

[Buck Showalter]

So of the 23 Draft Picks we've had from 07-09 10 are still on the team. Less than half. Not only that but lets break down those ten shall we.

07-None

08-Pollak (marginal at best), Wheeler (Ok), Tamme (marginal), Garcon (OK)

09-Brown (scrub), Mola (scrub), Collie (ok), Painter (scub), Mcafee (Good) Powers (ok)

So of the ten, we have 3 scrubs, 2 2nd/3rd stringers, 1 avg LB/CB, 2 avg WR, and a good Punter.

And you think this was cherry picked?

Yeah if you look at the drafts since 2006 you can see why we are 0-13 with Peyton out...

especially with Polians "build through the draft mantra", not that I think Free Agency would save this team, but colts've let some good role players leave.

but the "In Polian We Trust" sentiment no longer holds much weight

[The Fish]

But to prove a decline rather than just an anomoly, we have to wait until next season...dont we?

Truth.

But if we did that there'd be no need for the internet banter!

Next season is going to be far more interesting than this one no matter what happens this off season.

[dn4192]

So of the 23 Draft Picks we've had from 07-09 10 are still on the team. Less than half. Not only that but lets break down those ten shall we.

07-None

08-Pollak (marginal at best), Wheeler (Ok), Tamme (marginal), Garcon (OK)

09-Brown (scrub), Mola (scrub), Collie (ok), Painter (scub), Mcafee (Good) Powers (ok)

So of the ten, we have 3 scrubs, 2 2nd/3rd stringers, 1 avg LB/CB, 2 avg WR, and a good Punter.

And you think this was cherry picked?

How does that compare to the rest of the NFL, to me that will show how the Colts ahve done draft wise...

[IndyTrav]

How does that compare to the rest of the NFL, to me that will show how the Colts ahve done draft wise...

And while I dont disagree with that (the comparsion to other teams), I just dont care. I don't care what other teams are doing. I care what my team is doing. And what my team has done in 3 years is manage to land 5 avg players. I dont need to look at the Browns to know that is unacceptable.

[Buck Showalter]

How does that compare to the rest of the NFL, to me that will show how the Colts ahve done draft wise...

Compare how??? If you look at the draft you will see that teams have some busts picked prior to the colts picks & there are starters & pro-bowlers that the colts passed on...

If you look at the colts drafts alone, very few 1st or 2nd round picks are really panning out...

[dn4192]

Yeah if you look at the drafts since 2006 you can see why we are 0-13 with Peyton out...

especially with Polians "build through the draft mantra", not that I think Free Agency would save this team, but colts've let some good role players leave.

but the "In Polian We Trust" sentiment no longer holds much weight

Did they let them leave or could it be that they couldn't afford them? In the cap age teams are forced to make tough decisions and I doubt the Colts are the only team that have had to let good players walk....

[dn4192]

And while I dont disagree with that (the comparsion to other teams), I just dont care. I don't care what other teams are doing. I care what my team is doing. And what my team has done in 3 years is manage to land 5 avg players. I dont need to look at the Browns to know that is unacceptable.

But that is unfair, if the Colts drafting and % of success/failure is on average with what is happening in the NFL how can that be so horrible? I doubt any team is hitting 1000.00, so to be fair you need to see how Bill has done compared to the other GM's.

[dn4192]

Compare how??? If you look at the draft you will see that teams have some busts picked prior to the colts picks & there are starters & pro-bowlers that the colts passed on...

If you look at the colts drafts alone, very few 1st or 2nd round picks are really panning out...

True but have the Colts had more failures then other teams? Look at the Pats, they have been drafting defensive players who are not panning out, so for me I would like to know in a draft review of say the past 5 drafts how the teams breakdown in players taken to still on the roster, playing level and such...

[Buck Showalter]

Did they let them leave or could it be that they couldn't afford them? In the cap age teams are forced to make tough decisions and I doubt the Colts are the only team that have had to let good players walk....

Exactly, you gotta pick & choose & hindsight is 20/20, but some of the ex-colts that I see making plays on other teams are'nt household names that would've been wallet busters. Giordano for example, he has had a few great games in Oakland

[antipatriot]

COACHING, COACHING, COACHING

No team looses one player and goes just a forgone conclusion ( outside maybe the Jacksonville game ) 0 - 16. Peyton is in my opinion the Greatest QB of all time but we should be able to pull off at least one win, being the only team in the league that hasnt won a game speaks volumes because we are not the least talented team in the league.

[Buck Showalter]

True but have the Colts had more failures then other teams? Look at the Pats, they have been drafting defensive players who are not panning out, so for me I would like to know in a draft review of say the past 5 drafts how the teams breakdown in players taken to still on the roster, playing level and such...

Without doing that research (you got a computer you can look that stuff up yourself) I would guess that the colts are somewhere in the middle to upper Quarter of the pack...not the greatest but not the worst, Al Davis may he rest in peace, heavily squewed that comparison...

[dn4192]

Exactly, you gotta pick & choose & hindsight is 20/20, but some of the ex-colts that I see making plays on other teams are'nt household names that would've been wallet busters. Giordano for example, he has had a few great games in Oakland

But are they doing better or playing well because they are being used better or differently in the system their team is going with? Would Dallas Clark have put up the numbers he did in say an offense that is geared more towards the run?

[IndyTrav]

But that is unfair, if the Colts drafting and % of success/failure is on average with what is happening in the NFL how can that be so horrible? I doubt any team is hitting 1000.00, so to be fair you need to see how Bill has done compared to the other GM's.

Example. Texans in our divison.

07- 7 picks, not sure who all is on the roster at this point, but Okoye (good) Jones (ok)

08-7 picks, not sure about roster, Brown (good)

09- 8 picks not sure about roster, Quinn (good) Caldwell (ok)

Im not to big on the Texans, but I do watch nearly all the games every week, and just off the top of my head they have 4 guys who are ok or better. Heck Cushing is a probowler, brown may get one, Quinn looks like a keeper, Jones=Garcon, an this is without bring up Arian Foster (Undrafted) or Steve Slaton (1 good yr)

[dn4192]

COACHING, COACHING, COACHING

No team looses one player and goes just a forgone conclusion ( outside maybe the Jacksonville game ) 0 - 16. Peyton is in my opinion the Greatest QB of all time but we should be able to pull off at least one win, being the only team in the league that hasnt won a game speaks volumes because we are not the least talented team in the league.

When the 1 player you lose is the most important player on your team and maybe the most important player to a roster in the league and the backup is horrible, then yes what is happening can happen.....

[Larry Horseman]

I can't justify the Gonzo and Ugoh choices, although both did contribute well for a couple of seasons. Brown is actually a good player and would have had an excellent year if he was given more carries...his progress reminds of McFadden (not putting him in the same category but saying took a while to mature). However, DB would have made an impact in another scheme much quicker imo...he is a different style runner than the Colts were used to having. Hughes is also talented but should be playing in a different defensive scheme, so while he is a bust for the Colts I would bet a decent amount of money he will leave here and be a really nice player on another team. In the case of Brown and Hughes, it seems to be a lack of the front office matching talent to the schemes that are being implemented on the field as opposed to the players not having talent. This still falls on the Polians....and maybe it's Chris' influence?

I think drafting late has done a lot of damage as well. It's easy to hit on PM, Edge, Freeney, etc. when you are drafting early in the first round. (Don't forget that a lot of people thought the Edge and Freeney picks were jokes at the time.) It's a lot more difficult when you are drafting late in the round. I'm not being a Polian apologist, I just think we should consider that the NFL is not made for sustained success or failure unless there is really good or really poor management. Bill appears to be slipping but maybe he just had a bad run for a few drafts or maybe it's Chris' fault...I'm not really sure what to think about the situation at this point because it's always a constant flip-flop by Bill as to who was really in charge of what draft since '06. I do think the last draft was a solid one, but again, I can't really say who ran it. Bill taking more control in the coaching department since Dungy left also needs to be part of this discussion.

[Larry Horseman]

I would also add that there needs to be context provided in articles like this. Barnwell is an excellent journalist but this is nothing more than an opinion piece as it stands. I do think how the Colts drafting compares to other teams is relevant. 18to88 has done some nice work on this, but it lacks the most recent years since the player's haven't been in the league long enough to evaluate over time. Leading up to 06, you'd be surprised how many bad picks Polian made, they were just not in the first round. BTW--Rob Morris was a bad first round pick and Barnwell seems to sugges that he was a good pick. My point is, there is a lot of subjectivity and the issue of drafting in the NFL is not as cut and dry as it seems. However, I do agree the Polians made some bad first round choices in Gonzo, Ugoh (essentially first round), Hughes, and Brown (Pollack should not be included here because he was a 2nd round pick, as was Bob who should not be on Barnwell's list either).

I think the point is that Barnwell makes some good points but this article is not 100% accurate or backed up by facts, leaving room for the Polian haters to hate and the lovers to love. So, have fun!

[That Guy]

Our 2010 #1 - Jerry Hughes (at least he has a sack this year)

Next pick - #32 NO - Patrick Robinson (corner) - 5 games started this year, 2 INT

Our 2009 #1 - Donald Brown (doing better this year)

Next pick - #28 BUF - Eric Wood (center) - injury prone starter

Our 2008 #1 - Traded for Tony Ugoh

Next pick - #27 SD - Antoine Cason (corner) - took two years to become a full starter

Our 2007 #1 - Anthony Gonzalez - Could have been good if he had stronger knees

Next pick - #33 AR - Alan Branch (DT) - did not become a starter until this year

Our 2006 #1 - Joseph Addai - Decent runner, Excellent blocker

Next pick - #31 SEA - Kelly Jennings - not a starter

It seems we have just been picking after the talent drops off for a few years. The picks after ours have not been effective.

Has anyone heard of these guys?

[JoKeR]

Some of this is right, some of it isn't. If your going to blame Peyton Manning's absence, and not mention Jim Caldwell and Clyde Christensan, Coyer, ect. what's the point. I'd say that between Painter, Collins and O we've had some of the worst QB play in the game and some of the worst coaching, we all know that's really key to the NFL. There is really a lot of talent on the team still, I'd say with a down the middle qb this team would have been .500 or so. Peyton has through out his career been a guy who make's play's and in doing so, makes play makers. And when did guys like Mathis, Freeney, Bethea, become scrap heap type talent. The run down of Chris's drafting is accurate, he sucks.

Too much logic here. Its not sensational enough. You gotta push peoples buttons to make it in today's sports journalism. Your realistic approach just wont do. ;)

[Coltsagent]

Why cant this just be solely attributed to lossing Manning? Look what happend to the Cavs after loosing LeBron and that is a sport w/ only 5 players for BOTH offense and defense.

[JoKeR]

Article should focus on how important a good , competent QB is....coach too.

[WSO]

So of the 23 Draft Picks we've had from 07-09 10 are still on the team. Less than half. Not only that but lets break down those ten shall we.

07-None

08-Pollak (marginal at best), Wheeler (Ok), Tamme (marginal), Garcon (OK)

09-Brown (scrub), Mola (scrub), Collie (ok), Painter (scub), Mcafee (Good) Powers (ok)

So of the ten, we have 3 scrubs, 2 2nd/3rd stringers, 1 avg LB/CB, 2 avg WR, and a good Punter.

And you think this was cherry picked?

You cant be serious? 10 out of 23 is still pretty good. Go look at how other teams draft there are some teams that have maybe 4 or 5 guys left over. Not every single person of that 23 will make it. I'm sure if you look at the draft from 02 03 04 05 and compared it to the '06 roster a lot of the guys in the 02 03 04 05 draft wouldn't be on the team.

I also laughed at you saying that players like Garcon and Collie are "ok" even Tamme who filled in for Clark when he was out and was very important in our offense during that time frame. Garcon was extremely important in the '09 playoffs as we saw.

[IndyTrav]

.

I also laughed at you saying that players like Garcon and Collie are "ok" even Tamme who filled in for Clark when he was out and was very important in our offense during that time frame. Garcon was extremely important in the '09 playoffs as we saw.

Im glad you got a chuckle. I wasnt intending on debating the there importance to our team. But as players they are literally nothing special. Collies/Garcon/Tammes make up 85% of the NFL. Good players, fit the system. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Its not a knock, its simply what it is.

Im not attempting to use the PB as the end all be all but between Collie/Garcon/Tamme, how many career PB appearances will be between the 3 of them? Im not a fortune teller, but as a gambler I'd say the $ would be pretty darn low.

[WSO]

Im glad you got a chuckle. I wasnt intending on debating the there importance to our team. But as players they are literally nothing special. Collies/Garcon/Tammes make up 85% of the NFL. Good players, fit the system. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Its not a knock, its simply what it is.

Im not attempting to use the PB as the end all be all but between Collie/Garcon/Tamme, how many career PB appearances will be between the 3 of them? Im not a fortune teller, but as a gambler I'd say the $ would be pretty darn low.

I'm not saying they are are pro bowl players but they are certainly better than "ok". "Ok" players aren't 2nd(you can debate whether you consider Collie 3rd string or 2a/2b) stringers on high powered offenses. Those guys have to be good. I think all 3 of them are good.

[Superman]

Our 2010 #1 - Jerry Hughes (at least he has a sack this year)

Next pick - #32 NO - Patrick Robinson (corner) - 5 games started this year, 2 INT

Our 2009 #1 - Donald Brown (doing better this year)

Next pick - #28 BUF - Eric Wood (center) - injury prone starter

Our 2008 #1 - Traded for Tony Ugoh

Next pick - #27 SD - Antoine Cason (corner) - took two years to become a full starter

Our 2007 #1 - Anthony Gonzalez - Could have been good if he had stronger knees

Next pick - #33 AR - Alan Branch (DT) - did not become a starter until this year

Our 2006 #1 - Joseph Addai - Decent runner, Excellent blocker

Next pick - #31 SEA - Kelly Jennings - not a starter

It seems we have just been picking after the talent drops off for a few years. The picks after ours have not been effective.

Has anyone heard of these guys?

I agree. See, you can always go a few picks down and find a player that worked out better than your guy, but that's not a fair assessment. If you have the benefit of hindsight, you'll never strike out.

[21isSuperman]

So of the 23 Draft Picks we've had from 07-09 10 are still on the team. Less than half. Not only that but lets break down those ten shall we.

07-None

08-Pollak (marginal at best), Wheeler (Ok), Tamme (marginal), Garcon (OK)

09-Brown (scrub), Mola (scrub), Collie (ok), Painter (scub), Mcafee (Good) Powers (ok)

So of the ten, we have 3 scrubs, 2 2nd/3rd stringers, 1 avg LB/CB, 2 avg WR, and a good Punter.

And you think this was cherry picked?

Wow, high standards. Wheeler is ok? Tamme is marginal? Garcon is ok? Collie and Powers are ok? Brown is a scrub? Dude....all of those players have had big contributions to the team and Brown and Wheeler are both having the best seasons of their careers (and you could argue the same for Garcon). Collie was leading the NFL in so many categories before he got injured.

[IndyTrav]

Wow, high standards. Wheeler is ok? Tamme is marginal? Garcon is ok? Collie and Powers are ok? Brown is a scrub? Dude....all of those players have had big contributions to the team and Brown and Wheeler are both having the best seasons of their careers (and you could argue the same for Garcon). Collie was leading the NFL in so many categories before he got injured.

No not high standards at all. I like these guys, but to say they are anything more than average is a stretch. They are what they are. Slot WRs, #2s and backups. Thats ok, every NFL team NEEDS them, every NFL team HAS them. I have no qualms with them. But with every Collie/Garcon you need a tier one and while its a stretch to ask for a Edge/Marv/Reggie every year, you'd expect to hit on at least one Pro Bowler (not a Punter).

[21isSuperman]

No not high standards at all. I like these guys, but to say they are anything more than average is a stretch. They are what they are. Slot WRs, #2s and backups. Thats ok, every NFL team NEEDS them, every NFL team HAS them. I have no qualms with them. But with every Collie/Garcon you need a tier one and while its a stretch to ask for a Edge/Marv/Reggie every year, you'd expect to hit on at least one Pro Bowler (not a Punter).

Tamme has played very similar to Clark. Collie was playing very well before they got injured. They could both have made the Pro Bowl. The problem with the Pro Bowl is that it's a popularity contest. Yeah, on field success does mean something, but no one knows Jacob Tamme and no one knows that he led the league in some categories once he took over for Clark last year.

[reddmmann]

This writer isn’t saying anything that hasn’t already been said by many on this forum.

The Colts(because of recent, marginal early round draft choices ) has a scant amount of high-end talent which resulted in a running game and defense that didn’t have the ability to “step-up’ with Manning out.

News-Flash??……not

[IndyTrav]

Tamme has played very similar to Clark. Collie was playing very well before they got injured. They could both have made the Pro Bowl. The problem with the Pro Bowl is that it's a popularity contest. Yeah, on field success does mean something, but no one knows Jacob Tamme and no one knows that he led the league in some categories once he took over for Clark last year.

Im not knocking there play. They did well a few years ago, but plug in J.Dressen/Devone Bess and your going to get the same results. The slot Wr has had a recent run of success and put in the right position (ie elite QB) they put up steller #s. Jordy Nelson, Wes Welker, Jimmy Graham (TE), Victor Cruz, are all near the tops in WR categorys this year, and all work out of the slot. Coincidence?

And as for the Pro Bowl, it was more of an attempt to establish a comparison between them and there peers, not popular vote, but I agree the PB has boiled down to the big dogs, but still most are deserving.

[21isSuperman]

Im not knocking there play. They did well a few years ago, but plug in J.Dressen/Devone Bess and your going to get the same results. The slot Wr has had a recent run of success and put in the right position (ie elite QB) they put up steller #s. Jordy Nelson, Wes Welker, Jimmy Graham (TE), Victor Cruz, are all near the tops in WR categorys this year, and all work out of the slot. Coincidence?

And as for the Pro Bowl, it was more of an attempt to establish a comparison between them and there peers, not popular vote, but I agree the PB has boiled down to the big dogs, but still most are deserving.

What about guys like Calvin Johnson, Fitz (has even been doing it without much of a QB), Mike Wallace, Roddy White? They don't work in the slot and they're among the top WRs in the league. And for our offense this year (take this how you want, considering the situation of our team), the top WR has been Garcon while Collie has been quiet

[IndyTrav]

What about guys like Calvin Johnson, Fitz (has even been doing it without much of a QB), Mike Wallace, Roddy White? They don't work in the slot and they're among the top WRs in the league. And for our offense this year (take this how you want, considering the situation of our team), the top WR has been Garcon while Collie has been quiet

Are these the standard your holding our WR too? I wouldnt ask for that type of production from Collie/Garcon. Nor would they be capable. Im saying the Slot WR is capable of producing elite #'s because of the advantages its has on the field, esp. with a quality QB (like Manning).

[vitoaf27]

Everything he said in the article was true, but instead of analyzing why some of the so-called "poor-drafting" happened, he just immediately concluded it is because our GM is incompetent. However, I would argue that the only first-round bust out of the last 5 years is Jerry Hughes. Every other player has a story behind his lack of play: injuries are a big one for most of them, all of which were unpredictable, an addiction to video games was another reason, Mike Pollack was second rounder and has done well as a role player, playing many positions along the line (I also think he will start at center for us next year and do very well, but that's beyond the point), etc. The talent evaluation, the injury evaluation, the character evaluation: they're all equally as good as they have been in the past. The only thing that has been hurting us is a) luck and b) picking lower in the 1st round.

An article that takes a MUCH more objective approach at our drafting, and a very accurate one at that, can be found here:

http://18to88.com/2011-archives/april/the-draft-project.html

This article actually shows that recently we have been much more efficient with the given draft picks. A couple interesting notes I got from it is that 2008 was one of the best drafts of the Polian era (both by the league standards and by his standards) and it proves that a strong roster is built from high draft picks and high efficiency. The Packers, over the past 5 years, had one of the best efficiency in draft picks. Couple that with their high draft picks and you get a Super Bowl win last year and one of the best teams in the history of the league this year.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Tamme has played very similar to Clark. Collie was playing very well before they got injured. They could both have made the Pro Bowl. The problem with the Pro Bowl is that it's a popularity contest. Yeah, on field success does mean something, but no one knows Jacob Tamme and no one knows that he led the league in some categories once he took over for Clark last year.

Tamme wasn't Dallas, but you might as well call him Fort Worth. He was that close. Combining Dallas & Tamme's #'s for the season were better than anything Dallas put up on his own the previous years. I was actually looking forward to a return of a 12 set.. 1 back 2 TE with 84 & 44 lined up together with 87/85 and 17 thrown into the mix.