What is the deal with Khaled Holmes?

[Superman]

Yes, but Grigson is on record not drafting rookie o lineman to start..  He should have used that slot on Holmes for a better player in another position and did a better job on the O line in FA than just Cherilus ; if he is being true to his statements...  The FA's were there...  but then again... he doesn't go for big names either.  So what does he go for?   ___________

 

It's important to put his comments into context and to stick to what he actually said. In actuality, Grigson is NOT on record not drafting rookie lineman to start. That's a misconception, at best.

 

He was asked, if he had to choose, would he rather have a rookie corner start, or a rookie lineman. He choose a rookie corner, because line is a more difficult assignment. He didn't say he is against rookies starting on the line, he simply acknowledged the challenges it presents, in comparison with other positions. Also, he was asked for his opinion on this. He didn't bring it up or volunteer that information, as if he has an issue with rookie linemen starting.

 

Also, Grigson signed two veteran linemen to start for us this year. Cherilus had a good year, Thomas looked good before getting hurt. It's not that hard to see what Grigson's approach will be with the offensive line. 

[Superman]

Watch out logic incoming :-).

I don't even mention my opinions of Pagano as I'm usually labeled a questionable fan and a negative fan and should go cheer for the pats. Lol...

I'm trying to figure out how it is a crime to hold the HC in as high of expectation as the rest of the team. If a player isn't doing their job completely right you have to see that and look to see if he needs to be replaced. It would be different if you see spurts and potential in a player or HC but if you see the same decisions and choices then it is a habitual pattern and must be scrutinized...

 

See, I take issue with this stance. No player does their job completely right, and neither does any coach or GM. It doesn't happen. It's fine to be critical, but it's another to harp on mistakes and issues to the point that they overshadow the positive aspects.

 

I personally think there's more positive than negative with Pagano, though I definitely think he has some improvement to make as a head coach. Game management, game planning, philosophies, etc., all can improve. He's a 6/10 schematically, if you ask me. But as a motivator and leader, I think he more than makes up for those weaknesses. And coaches can get better schematically, but you can't learn how to be a great motivator. You either have it or you don't. So I'm fine with Pagano.

 

What annoys me is the martyr attitude among those who are critical, then when they get some pushback, they run to the "I get labeled, so I don't post" defense. State your opinion, and be willing to defend it without focusing on the absurd extremes (ie, "Pagano is awful, he sucks!" vs. "Pagano is amazing, he beat cancer, if you don't like him you're not a real fan!")

[Indygal1218]

Respectfully, disagree. poor draft strategy.

That's entirely your prerogative, especially since it isn't my draft strategy. I do not have a draft strategy since that isn't what I get paid to do in life.

[ColtsBlueFL]

It's important to put his comments into context and to stick to what he actually said. In actuality, Grigson is NOT on record not drafting rookie lineman to start. That's a misconception, at best.

 

He was asked, if he had to choose, would he rather have a rookie corner start, or a rookie lineman. He choose a rookie corner, because line is a more difficult assignment. He didn't say he is against rookies starting on the line, he simply acknowledged the challenges it presents, in comparison with other positions. Also, he was asked for his opinion on this. He didn't bring it up or volunteer that information, as if he has an issue with rookie linemen starting.

 

Also, Grigson signed two veteran linemen to start for us this year. Cherilus had a good year, Thomas looked good before getting hurt. It's not that hard to see what Grigson's approach will be with the offensive line. 

 

Fair enough, but that still leaves ambiguity to me.  So I infer he likely won't draft O lineman high, preferring other positions, and he'll look for merely average to decent FA's if available, No stars.  I'm disappointed in his middle of the line.  G-C-G.  Starters and projects.  Consistent pressure up the middle is harder for a QB than consistent edge pressure.  You can move around or step up quite often.  Pressure up the middle, there's nowhere to go.  Throw early and possibly make a mistake, or take a sack/maybe even fumble. And run O blocking is horrible, IE: TRich.  I feel we will only be a playoff level team until we get stronger in the trenches. Hoping they have a plan for a monster on the interior lines.  And the 'projects' grow up more quickly.  And I'm fine with Pagano, and even Grigson's 2012 performance.  Just underwhelmed by most all of his 2013 drafts/trades.

 

We get our guys healthy and keep most of them off the I.R., we look really good.  But interior lines ( notably the O ) are an Achilles for us. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

That's entirely your prerogative, especially since it isn't my draft strategy. I do not have a draft strategy since that isn't what I get paid to do in life.

 

True, as I don't either. But it's philosophy you appear to endorse, and one one I'm not a fan of.  But it's a free country. And a discussion board. 

[lollygagger8]

 

 

Can I have my 3 minutes of my life back from reading 3 pages of next to nothing? 

[Smonroe]

its still opinion

For those of you interested - Colts Authority did a piece each week where the author reviewed every block by every player. It's pretty easy to tell who they blocked and if the block was successful. He admits that he doesn't know their assignments, only what they actually did.

That's not opinion, that's an objective analysis.

[dudeski]

For those of you interested - Colts Authority did a piece each week where the author reviewed every block by every player. It's pretty easy to tell who they blocked and if the block was successful. He admits that he doesn't know their assignments, only what they actually did.

That's not opinion, that's an objective analysis.

its an opinion

[Smonroe]

its an opinion

You're an opinion.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Pagano does show a lot of loyalty to his players, and maybe to his detriment.  But he did adjust as the season progressed, by playing Rogers, Whalen, Gordy, McNary and benching DHB, and shaking up the offensive line.  It's irritating that people just bash Pagano for not changing the lineup (albeit maybe not soon enough) but then completely ignore it when he does make a change.

 

I'm glad he finally started to make changes.  Otherwise I was beginning to believe his 'iron sharpens iron' mantra was just a cliche`.  If a previous starter wants his job back, get better and take (earn) it.

[Surge89]

See, I take issue with this stance. No player does their job completely right, and neither does any coach or GM. It doesn't happen. It's fine to be critical, but it's another to harp on mistakes and issues to the point that they overshadow the positive aspects.

 

I personally think there's more positive than negative with Pagano, though I definitely think he has some improvement to make as a head coach. Game management, game planning, philosophies, etc., all can improve. He's a 6/10 schematically, if you ask me. But as a motivator and leader, I think he more than makes up for those weaknesses. And coaches can get better schematically, but you can't learn how to be a great motivator. You either have it or you don't. So I'm fine with Pagano.

 

What annoys me is the martyr attitude among those who are critical, then when they get some pushback, they run to the "I get labeled, so I don't post" defense. State your opinion, and be willing to defend it without focusing on the absurd extremes (ie, "Pagano is awful, he sucks!" vs. "Pagano is amazing, he beat cancer, if you don't like him you're not a real fan!")

 

Schematically yes he is probably a 6, I'm not sure on the motivator... These teams start very flat with no drive.  He seems to motivate only when the team is down a bunch of scores... I guess you can call that motivation, but I'd rather see a team come out confident and then end confident.  That is a huge problem. Either they come out sparked and fall flat by half or they come out flat and then spark in the 4th.  

 

I run to get a martyr attitude?  No its pretty evident that there is no casual conversation when it comes to the head coach.  It is either be happy with him or your a spoiled fan and need to go root for the pats if you want Bill Belichek.  That is why I would rather stick to NFL General where this subject doesn't come up.  Because I am opinionated and have a lot of reason.  When I voice that reason it is either ignored or stated I'm spoiled.  So why even bother?  I've even gone as far as to state that he hasn't had multiple seasons to see if this will be a pattern or learning, but of course that is dismissed as well no?  But it is worrying the tendencies he shows. And unluckily for him, he has a time limit because Luck will not be so cheap for long.  And when he isn't?  These "Tendencies" Pagano has will be amplified due to the greater lack of talent we have now.

 

I will agree you have reasonable stances and create conversation but you are a small percent of the replies.  

[krunk]

I'm not sure what the deal is with Holmes, but I don't buy the "lacking upper body strength" proposal.  Are we trying to say the Satele had the strength that Holmes lacked?  Everbody knows Satele is weak and gets pushed around.  Whenever Holmes did get a chance to play he graded out pretty good according to the sites that keep up with that stuff I believe.  What the real story is we won't find out until later on this offseason when all of the inside gossip starts to come out heading into the draft.

[YOUR GM]

I would buy the "lack of strength" argument if this staff hasn't already shown a mild tendency to freeze out certain players who are obviously more talented than players playing ahead of them. Kavell Conner, Joe Reitz, TY Hilton and Donald Brown (earlier in the season) all sat behind players who were obviously less talented than them. Something is either broke about the staff's evaluation process or they're just more concerned with being friends with certain players. I don't know what it is, but it certainly doesn't appear to make since. Stubbornness and over-loyalty are not traits found in winning franchises. I like Pagano's leadership ability but some of his decisions are head scratchers

[TYhaze]

I don't get why people keep referring to DHB starting over TY at the beginning of the season.

 

The Colts wanted a power-running offense and DHB is a better blocker than TY. It's really not that difficult to understand.

 

I'm curious, over the first 4 games of the season, who got more snaps? If DHB did get more snaps, I'm sure it wasn't by a lot.

[Surge89]

Chuck has done a good job.   But like I said there is PLENTY of room for improvement.    And nobody in Indianapolis could understand DHB starting over TY.       That was THE Colts football topic for the early portion of the season on local radio.

 

He has certainly made some strange decisions but 11 - 5 with all the injuries on O is not too bad.

 

Exactly how I feel.

[Superman]

Fair enough, but that still leaves ambiguity to me.  So I infer he likely won't draft O lineman high, preferring other positions, and he'll look for merely average to decent FA's if available, No stars.  I'm disappointed in his middle of the line.  G-C-G.  Starters and projects.  Consistent pressure up the middle is harder for a QB than consistent edge pressure.  You can move around or step up quite often.  Pressure up the middle, there's nowhere to go.  Throw early and possibly make a mistake, or take a sack/maybe even fumble. And run O blocking is horrible, IE: TRich.  I feel we will only be a playoff level team until we get stronger in the trenches. Hoping they have a plan for a monster on the interior lines.  And the 'projects' grow up more quickly.  And I'm fine with Pagano, and even Grigson's 2012 performance.  Just underwhelmed by most all of his 2013 drafts/trades.

 

We get our guys healthy and keep most of them off the I.R., we look really good.  But interior lines ( notably the O ) are an Achilles for us. 

 

I think that's a needlessly restrictive interpretation. Each draft is different, and how Grigson approaches each draft will be different. I don't think his comments implied anything about his draft strategy. I think they've been misconstrued and taken out of context, which is why they might seem ambiguous. To me, his comments can be viewed in a vacuum.

 

I obviously agree that we need to improve significantly along the interior of the line, and I think that health and continued development of the younger players will help. We'll see what else happens in the offseason.

 

Grigson's moves in 2013 obviously weren't as good as 2012, particularly the high profile moves. And because the line wasn't fixed, despite Grigson adding linemen from various sources, the biggest move he made didn't pay off at all. 

[Superman]

I don't get why people keep referring to DHB starting over TY at the beginning of the season.

 

The Colts wanted a power-running offense and DHB is a better blocker than TY. It's really not that difficult to understand.

 

I'm curious, over the first 4 games of the season, who got more snaps? If DHB did get more snaps, I'm sure it wasn't by a lot.

 

To add to this, after the first game, Hamilton stated that he needed to get Hilton more involved. So the way they used Hilton against the Raiders didn't seem to be in line with what they had planned. Then Hilton had a good game against Miami. It was never DHB over Hilton, it was about expanding the offense to put our weapons in good situations. And that was fixed after one game.

[Superman]

Schematically yes he is probably a 6, I'm not sure on the motivator... These teams start very flat with no drive.  He seems to motivate only when the team is down a bunch of scores... I guess you can call that motivation, but I'd rather see a team come out confident and then end confident.  That is a huge problem. Either they come out sparked and fall flat by half or they come out flat and then spark in the 4th.  

 

I disagree. The slow starts weren't a problem until after Reggie got hurt. As a matter of fact, some people were making a big deal about us cooling off in the second half, saying "Pagano isn't a good second half coach." And it's ironic, because in the second half of the season, this team did practically all of its damage in the second half of games. So neither of those angles is accurate.

 

And besides, what I mean when I talk about his ability to motivate has to do with him connecting with his players, them being willing to follow his leadership, keep playing hard, keep believing, etc. There's a quality about Pagano that's engaging and inspiring, and that's not something you learn as a middle-aged man. You either have it (Pagano), or you don't (Caldwell). That quality doesn't win you games by itself, but I think it's important, particularly for a younger team that doesn't know that they're not supposed to be winning yet.

 

I run to get a martyr attitude?  No its pretty evident that there is no casual conversation when it comes to the head coach.  It is either be happy with him or your a spoiled fan and need to go root for the pats if you want Bill Belichek.  That is why I would rather stick to NFL General where this subject doesn't come up.  Because I am opinionated and have a lot of reason.  When I voice that reason it is either ignored or stated I'm spoiled.  So why even bother?  I've even gone as far as to state that he hasn't had multiple seasons to see if this will be a pattern or learning, but of course that is dismissed as well no?  But it is worrying the tendencies he shows. And unluckily for him, he has a time limit because Luck will not be so cheap for long.  And when he isn't?  These "Tendencies" Pagano has will be amplified due to the greater lack of talent we have now.

 

I will agree you have reasonable stances and create conversation but you are a small percent of the replies.  

 

I don't mean to offend or label anyone. But it's strange to see people focus on these extremes, rather than debating the actual topic in a reasonable manner. If people respond with nonsense, it's easy to disregard them. But if you really have an opinion and want to discuss it, then bring it. That's what message boards are for.

 

And to be honest, I'm not sure I agree with the so-called "tendencies." People keep implying that Pagano makes certain decisions because he wants to be friends with certain players, and that's just not supported by the facts. I think Pagano resists knee-jerk reactions, which irritates fans sometimes. A big one is benching DHB. Thing is, DHB was benched, and only a few weeks after Reggie went down. He wasn't as big a liability before then, and after then, we needed someone to step up, and DHB got worse. He eventually played his way out of the rotation, but the coaches found a way to wring some kind of contribution out of him, and he did a great job as a special teams gunner. If Pagano had done what the fans wanted, we'd have cut DHB back in late October, and he would never have contributed like he did later on in the year.

 

Playing Satele is, to me, indefensible, but I don't think it has anything to do with Pagano wanting to be Satele's friend. I think the staff was ::thisclose:: to benching Satele later in the year, but injuries messed that up. We'll see what happens moving forward. But Vaughn was eventually benched, and buried deep on the depth chart. Reitz got some chances, but couldn't stay healthy. 

 

So, on a micro level, I disagree with a lot of these criticisms, so it's no surprise that I'd disagree on a macro level. And that's fine; it doesn't mean there can't be discussion about some of these issues. Like I said, I think that's a big part of the reason most of us are here in the first place.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I think that's a needlessly restrictive interpretation. Each draft is different, and how Grigson approaches each draft will be different. I don't think his comments implied anything about his draft strategy. I think they've been misconstrued and taken out of context, which is why they might seem ambiguous. To me, his comments can be viewed in a vacuum.

 

I obviously agree that we need to improve significantly along the interior of the line, and I think that health and continued development of the younger players will help. We'll see what else happens in the offseason.

 

Grigson's moves in 2013 obviously weren't as good as 2012, particularly the high profile moves. And because the line wasn't fixed, despite Grigson adding linemen from various sources, the biggest move he made didn't pay off at all. 

 

 

Well, if it is GM speak for I'm not spilling any beans so here are some words for you...  then OK. But it also tells me he is evasive.  You can only judge by what one says, and what one does.  If it can taken out of context, maybe he should identify the context better.  Or, maybe he wants it that way.    But everyone likely has a different interpretation of those comments.

 

In any event, he needs a good 2014 FA and draft.  One of his projects manning up would help too.  Hopefully the injury bug won't be quite as harsh or take as key  of player(s) next year.  And we get better and tougher up the middle.

[Superman]

Well, if it is GM speak for I'm not spilling any beans so here are some words for you... then OK. But it also tells me he is evasive. You can only judge by what one says, and what one does. If it can taken out of context, maybe he should identify the context better. Or, maybe he wants it that way. But everyone likely has a different interpretation of those comments.

In any event, he needs a good 2014 FA and draft. One of his projects manning up would help too. Hopefully the injury bug won't be quite as harsh or take as key of player(s) next year. And we get better and tougher up the middle.

Well the comments weren't about his draft strategy to begin with. That's why I think they're being taken out of context. But I'll leave it alone. I've said my piece.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Well the comments weren't about his draft strategy to begin with. That's why I think they're being taken out of context. But I'll leave it alone. I've said my piece.

 

Yes, but is was a specifically worded question posed at the combine to mine for nuggets about potential draft strategy that was upcoming, whether Grigson knew this or not. And we didn't draft a CB as we got them as FA's, so the O lineman we did draft most likely weren't going to start. no matter what. And they didn't.  Against poor competition.  And major injury battles. Which is another discussion of it's own.  

[Gibbons180]

Man I tell you what... some of the posters on here really are just negative. Instead of constantly criticizing and posting negative things, try some upbeat, positive compliments. It will make everyone's day a little better. Don't take anything for granted, all of us are blessed to be apart of ColtsNation. Our organization is one among the best. Every team has flaws. Indianapolis is a young, talented team. The future is bright here in Indy. Go COLTS

[Rebelknight]

My 2 cents...if Donald Brown was the best chance at RB where has he been? Everyone acts like thus guys has ran for 1000 yards in a season..I remember Donald missing a block and Peyton yelling !#)/ Donald..As for Holmes I think its great he sat out a year to learn. Jeff Saturday didnt start right away..people act like we were a 5-11 team...

[dudeski]

To add to this, after the first game, Hamilton stated that he needed to get Hilton more involved. So the way they used Hilton against the Raiders didn't seem to be in line with what they had planned. Then Hilton had a good game against Miami. It was never DHB over Hilton, it was about expanding the offense to put our weapons in good situations. And that was fixed after one game.

not really

[Narcosys]

Never as long as Pagano is in charge.

ya he can be as dumb as he is stubborn with personnel decisions.

[K-148]

If Pagano is dumb and Hamilton is unimaginative and conservative why the Colts are 11-5 with a playoff win? According to a lot of fans, last season it was Bruce Arians (who was bashed then as a predictable vertical passing freak who would kill Andrew with his playcalling). But this season?

My two cents about personnel decisions. A lot of stuff happens at practice and we, fans, don’t know about it. What if Conner is awful at practice: losing assignments, barking at teammates? Yep, he is somehow above average in games, but how can Pagano trust him? Satele is awful blocker but MAYBE he is good at calling protections (I don’t know who’s responsibility is to call protections)? What would you prefer: good protection call with 1 bad blocker or bad protection call with 1 more good blocker?

As a fans we want ALL and NOW. Impossible.

[Gavin]

If Pagano is dumb and Hamilton is unimaginative and conservative why the Colts are 11-5 with a playoff win? According to a lot of fans, last season it was Bruce Arians (who was bashed then as a predictable vertical passing freak who would kill Andrew with his playcalling). But this season?

My two cents about personnel decisions. A lot of stuff happens at practice and we, fans, don’t know about it. What if Conner is awful at practice: losing assignments, barking at teammates? Yep, he is somehow above average in games, but how can Pagano trust him? Satele is awful blocker but MAYBE he is good at calling protections (I don’t know who’s responsibility is to call protections)? What would you prefer: good protection call with 1 bad blocker or bad protection call with 1 more good blocker?

As a fans we want ALL and NOW. Impossible.

Feel better?  

[K-148]

Feel better?  

It wasn't emotional at all. JMO

[indyagent17]

He was hurt in his senior year and I hear that he was on the mend most of this year so we will see

[Smonroe]

He was hurt in his senior year and I hear that he was on the mend most of this year so we will see

 

Yeah, getting back to the orginal question, I think that's the answer.

 

You don't want an unexperienced rookie, who's not 100%, to be the guy protecting your franchise.  The whole "put him in, he can't be worse than Satele" argument doesn't hold water.

[jimmy g]

For those of you interested - Colts Authority did a piece each week where the author reviewed every block by every player. It's pretty easy to tell who they blocked and if the block was successful. He admits that he doesn't know their assignments, only what they actually did.

That's not opinion, that's an objective analysis.

Facts are always true, never altered, never interpretted.  Everything else is opinion. Analysis is one's opinion of what is presented to be interpretted.  99% of things posted on a message board are opinons that posters want interpretted to be facts, which they aren't....

[HtownColt]

Seen on twitter he cut his hair not too long ago