Janoris Jenkins was balling

[buccolts]

So, just putting the word 'Colts' justifies a place in the 'Colts Football' section?

Or is it the argument of whether we should have drafted him that counts.

I don't really care, just wonderin'.

[krunk]

You are not reading me correctly. What is happening currently doesn't have any effect on what has already happened. He is and always will be a character concern. Just like "injury prone" or "indecisive in the pocket" sticks with you for a long time until you can do enough to show that those terms don't still define you. It's something you have to live down. Injury prone doesn't mean you will be injured on every play, but it means that when you do get injured, nobody is going to be shocked...because that is your history. See where i'm getting at?

I can see where you are coming from and I agree for the most part. He's got a ways to go to shed that label, I just felt you were treating him as if he hasn't done anything to counter his past and I disagreed.

[indy1888]

Logic doesn't work with this one, Super..

Says the fella who believes a first down catch is as impacting as a TD grab on 3rd down.

[oldunclemark]

:)

I thought it was Primetime Deion Sanders that used that term all the time.

That's true,,

You must have spent some time hanging out on the corner of 21st and Prime :dancing:

[krunk]

He has done something for two whole minutes of a game. He HAS sucked.

I will continue to keep my eyes open on Ballard, but I'm close to saying he sucks as well.

When I first viewed some of his draft highlights I thought he was somewhat similar to Ray Rice, but it appears as if I must have been hanging out with Janoris Jenkins on that day. I had to be high!

Maybe I'm being too harsh. I'll give him some time because I said Reggie Wayne sucked in his rookie year as well.

[Gavin]

Neither suck, the O Line is what the problem is, you dont go from 645 yards last year on only 134 carries (in Browns case) to sucking this year and if that was the case I could just as easily say Darren Mcfadden sucks because of the year he is having but that is obviously not the case. when an O Line changes schemes (like Oakland and the Colts has) and we dont have all the right players for that scheme it takes time

[TKnight24]

Yes, my original premise of the thread was why we couldn't have taken a chance on Jenkins after seeing his on the field play yesterday? However, after exchanging ideas with my fellow Colts fan, I am changing my stance to acknowledge that off the field baggage mattered to a new GM of a rebuilding team and reverting back to my original idea for wanting Glenn. Is that a crime?

The common theme, however, is that Fleener was not someone I wanted because I did not feel we needed him as badly as a CB or OL, I am being honest about it. It is not to gloat along the lines of "I said so" because it is too early to say anything along those lines. Fleener might become a good TE but I just do not feel we needed him that bad.

Refer: http://forums.colts....cks#entry251897 to confirm my constant lobbying for Glenn.

We didn't have any TE's on the Roster at that point if I'm not mistaking. Just taking Allen would've left us with 1 TE. And we took Fleener to get Luck Comfortable. What's a better way to get a ROOKIE QB Comfortable than to have a familiar face?

[Superman]

But you are ignoring the fact that Graham was not getting as much playing time that Fleener has enjoyed.

I'm not ignoring that at all. We're talking about production, and the numbers are pretty clear. Fleener's rookie year is to this point more productive than Graham's was after three games, and is on pace to be more productive than Graham's was for the year.

I can't do anything about the fact that Graham wasn't getting reps. And I get the feeling that the same criticism that we're throwing at Fleener would have been thrown at Graham after a couple of inactives at the beginning of the season. But only if he were on our team, because that's what we do with our players. We make excuses out the back door for other team's players; they're always better.

And thats not a negative on Graham either, because if one can be totally honest there is no way that Fleener is playing very much right now if we had kept our tight ends in the offseason.

Have you seen Dallas Clark this season? Jacob Tamme has looked the same way he always looked with Peyton throwing to him. Fleener might not have been drafted at #34 if we had kept our tight ends, so it's really a moot point. What's relevant is that he is playing right now, and his production is what it is. I'm not voting him in as Rookie of the Year, but he's on the field, and he's actually had some production through three games. Which is something that couldn't be said about Jimmy Graham at this time two years ago.

So in reality, there should be NO EXCUSE for Fleener to not outproduce Graham, he is the number 1 tightend on the roster. He's started every game.

We don't need an excuse for Fleener, because he IS outproducing Graham's rookie season at this point.

Jimmy Graham started a whopping 5 games and still produced over 30 catches and 5 TD's.

He played in 15 games, and produced over 30 catches and 5 touchdowns. Good numbers for a rookie tight end drafted in the third round, especially someone with only one year of college football and a pretty unimpressive set of numbers there also. Like you said earlier, he was incredibly raw coming out, and that impacted his time as a rookie.

But let me stop you before you overemphasize the number of games Graham started, which is highly irrelevant. What matters is how many plays he got, and I don't have that number. Nor do I have Fleener's. But Graham still played in 15 games as a rookie.

So i don't think your comparison to this point is really fair. I mean, if we want to compare like that, then lets compare each others stats after starting for a full season? Deal?

In other words, let's give Fleener more than three games before we decide that he sucks? I'm good with that.

This comparison is not my doing. You're the one who insisted that Graham was more talented and always will be, that he showed early on that he was going to be a good player while Fleener hasn't shown anything yet, and so on. And now, you're trying to set up a future debate that compares rookie Fleener's production with that of second-year Graham -- not to mention the quality of the offense that Graham played in last season, including the now record-holder for single season yardage at quarterback (oops). But my comparison is unfair?

[oldunclemark]

I'll play the Fleener card this week.

Coming out of the bye week..with some time to evalute the first 3 games..

against a team that likes to blitz and has some age in the secondary..

....Look fro Coby to grab a half dozen passe this week for 75-100 yards..

...we can score on Green Bay ...that's not going to be Sunday's problem

[TKnight24]

What has he done so far to make you so happy? Honest question? Forget what he did in college, forget what people said about him before he came here. As far as on field performance, what has he done to really get you excited? He struggled with routes, looks lost, not a great blocker, AND has a terrible case of the drops on top of it all. He has been outplayed, even in the receiving game, by Dwayne Allen IMHO. I'm more excited over Allen then Fleener. I see real NFl talent and strength with Allen. I see a bit of an attitude. This is a guy i could see becoming a very good tight end for years to come. I have yet to see much of any thing from Fleener.

80 yards receiving in ONE game. Makes Andrew Luck Comfortable having a Familiar face. How many Rookie WR's or TE's have 80 yard Receiving in ONE Game?

I'm not expecting any Rookie on this team to have a Epic Season. This is a NEW team to Everyone

[braveheartcolt]

Says the fella who believes a first down catch is as impacting as a TD grab on 3rd down.

Old Stone hands Kenton could have caught than one!

[Superman]

oh boy...if we have to go through players we "could have had"...there will be a long list. The notion fails because you can't measure how good a player would have done on another team. If we had drafted Arian Foster...he might not be "Arian Foster" because of our horrible run blocking...etc

Just saying. Not worth pouting over. Besides...Fleener has been/will be useful to us.

And Arian Foster was undrafted, signed by the Texans, waived, signed to the practice squad, and then signed to the active roster in November. Everyone had plenty of chances to get Foster, if they wanted him. The Texans got lucky is what happened.

[House]

Old Stone hands Kenton could have caught than one!

Oh sheesh.....

Just when I forget about his existence. There you go bringing him up again......

I demolished my buddy in Madden with good ol Kenton though. So props to him for that I guess lol.

[House]

And Arian Foster was undrafted, signed by the Texans, waived, signed to the practice squad, and then signed to the active roster in November. Everyone had plenty of chances to get Foster, if they wanted him. The Texans got lucky is what happened.

Ha! Yeah not likely.

Everyone knows that every other team knows who is talented and who isn't except for ours.

Something about Irsay not wanting to pay for a crystal ball, or hire 10 random posters from here to make executive decisions. Psssh cheapskate.

[Gavin]

We didn't have any TE's on the Roster at that point if I'm not mistaking. Just taking Allen would've left us with 1 TE. And we took Fleener to get Luck Comfortable. What's a better way to get a ROOKIE QB Comfortable than to have a familiar face?

well to be specific to your question what would be more familiar, throwing to that familiar face consistently would help, if the 16 targets through 3 games is accurate and I havent went back to see that it is then Fleener is on pace to be targeted 80 times this season, thats not what I call using a 2nd round pass catching TE who is familiar with your #1 draft pick QB proper use of that Tight End.

[TKnight24]

well to be specific to your question what would be more familiar, throwing to that familiar face consistently would help, if the 16 targets through 3 games is accurate and I havent went back to see that it is then Fleener is on pace to be targeted 64 times this season, thats not what I call using a 2nd round pass catching TE who is familiar with your #1 draft pick QB proper use of that Tight End.

Well, that's up to Arians & Luck on who gets the Ball & all that

[FightLikeSin]

I can see where you are coming from and I agree for the most part. He's got a ways to go to shed that label, I just felt you were treating him as if he hasn't done anything to counter his past and I disagreed.

I understand...but it's hard to to live down because "not getting in trouble" is the parameter we are looking for, which also is a normal parameter. So he needs to maintain the normal status for a while before he can shed the tag.

[Superman]

I understand...but it's hard to to live down because "not getting in trouble" is the parameter we are looking for, which also is a normal parameter. So he needs to maintain the normal status for a while before he can shed the tag.

Something comes to mind about it taking years to earn a good reputation, and only one bad incident to earn a bad one. Or however it goes. But it's true.

[TKnight24]

So, just putting the word 'Colts' justifies a place in the 'Colts Football' section?

Or is it the argument of whether we should have drafted him that counts.

I don't really care, just wonderin'.

That's how people do it. See a player they like that's not on the Colts. then out a question that involves our team name so it can stay in the "Colts Football" Section

[FightLikeSin]

Something comes to mind about it taking years to earn a good reputation, and only one bad incident to earn a bad one. Or however it goes. But it's true.

Yup. Almost akin to people's thoughts on kickers. You can make 1,000 FG's...it's the one that you miss that people will dismiss you for.

[Ryan Pelley]

I was one of the few that didn't want Fleener. I really wanted Steven Hill or Jenkins.

I'm with you. I was on the edge of my seat as Janoris fell out of the first, and wanted the Colts to take him... When they took Fleener, instant disappointment and anger that still continues as I think we would have been fine with Dwayne Allen from the looks of things.

[Superman]

I think Dwayne Allen has been fine, but I don't know what it is about his play that makes people feel like he's been better than Fleener.

[Nobody]

I think Dwayne Allen has been fine, but I don't know what it is about his play that makes people feel like he's been better than Fleener.

Maybe his lack of drops and far superior blocking.

[Superman]

Maybe his lack of drops and far superior blocking.

So then it's probably about expectations. If you expected Fleener to be a standout blocker, then you're looking for the wrong thing.

The drops are the drops. No excuse for them. But it's not the end of the world, either. I like Allen; he's obviously a very well-rounded player. But the way people are throwing around this "Allen is better than Fleener" meme makes you think he's setting the world on fire. He's not.

[funktacious2]

Jenkins is a 1st round talent and would have loved to have grabbed him. Fleener was not my first pick, but he's no bust yet. Also even though Jenkins covered Fitz well at times he also let him get very open on some plays too.

[Nobody]

So then it's probably about expectations. If you expected Fleener to be a standout blocker, then you're looking for the wrong thing.

The drops are the drops. No excuse for them. But it's not the end of the world, either. I like Allen; he's obviously a very well-rounded player. But the way people are throwing around this "Allen is better than Fleener" meme makes you think he's setting the world on fire. He's not.

He doesn't have to to be better than Fleener has been.

[Superman]

He doesn't have to to be better than Fleener has been.

I agree.

[GrizzColt]

Tony Dungy said on Mike and Mike that Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne both frustrated early in their careers. Clark was a 20-30 reception guy and ended up a 70 reception guy later in his career....the same with Wayne only more. You can't get down on Fleener yet. He has too much potential to discard and Janoris Jenkins has a few more years in which I'm sure he'll do something boneheaded.

[braveheartcolt]

When Jenkins eventually falls foul of the law, will all those Fleener bashers still be sitting smugly behind their keyboards I wonder. And irrespective of what happens, he was simply a player Grigson was not willing to risk our rebuilding around, Full stop.

3 games in, and we are proclaiming JJ a HOFer, and CF a bust.

Beyond ridiculous.

[Gavin]

whats really ridiculous is everyone salivating just waiting and hoping for Jenkins to get in trouble just to say I told you so

[braveheartcolt]

Knowing a leopard cannot change it's spots is not the same as hoping another human being self destructs. It would help if you could distinguish the difference.

[Gavin]

so we are comparing a human being to a leopard? not exactly a good analogy

[gbrads_rants]

I think Dwayne Allen has been fine, but I don't know what it is about his play that makes people feel like he's been better than Fleener.

He gets open...he catches the ball..............................he scores.....

[gbrads_rants]

When Jenkins eventually falls foul of the law, will all those Fleener bashers still be sitting smugly behind their keyboards I wonder. And irrespective of what happens, he was simply a player Grigson was not willing to risk our rebuilding around, Full stop.

3 games in, and we are proclaiming JJ a HOFer, and CF a bust.

Beyond ridiculous.

You're beyond ridiculous....how do you figure he'll "eventually falls foul of the law" ?

[FightLikeSin]

whats really ridiculous is everyone salivating just waiting and hoping for Jenkins to get in trouble just to say I told you so

What's more ridiculous is people downplaying crimes and convincing themselves that a player with a bad history can change overnight.

I for one hope that Jenkins stays out of trouble. I don't wish ill-will toward anyone. But when it comes down to the situation of the draft, it was too risky to put a 2nd round pick on him. It's a justified decision.

How's this for an analogy?

If Toaster A was $200 and was recalled 3 times for catching fire, you'd probably look elsewhere...perhaps for Toaster B that is $200 but has no record of catching fire. Doesn't mean that Toaster A will catch fire when you buy it, doesn't mean Toaster B won't catch fire when you buy it. All it means is that you invested wisely and were cautious with your purchase. You don't want to buy the guy that bought a $200 toaster that is known to catch fire.

[seeblu]

Colts fans never cease to amaze me. Here I sit at my computer, signing on to the Colts forum, expecting to find a forum full of joy because of the great win yesterday. Instead, what do I see?

A thread talking about Fleener and was he a good pick. You folks probably throw snow balls at Santa Claus and kick the Easter bunny.

[Qwiz]

You're beyond ridiculous....how do you figure he'll "eventually falls foul of the law" ?

Good question. I've been wondering about that myself.

[FightLikeSin]

Colts fans never cease to amaze me. Here I sit at my computer, signing on to the Colts forum, expecting to find a forum full of joy because of the great win yesterday. Instead, what do I see?

A thread talking about Fleener and was he a good pick. You folks probably throw snow balls at Santa Claus and kick the Easter bunny.

Just like there is day and night...so goes triumph and controversy. If it's joy you are looking for, there are plenty of threads going celebrating and stirring up optimism for future games.

This is a debate that carries no meaning...doesn't have any effect on the Colts organization at all. The decision is made and over with and all we are doing is reflecting and offering opinions. No need to bring Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny into this.

[indy1888]

Colts fans never cease to amaze me. Here I sit at my computer, signing on to the Colts forum, expecting to find a forum full of joy because of the great win yesterday. Instead, what do I see?

A thread talking about Fleener and was he a good pick. You folks probably throw snow balls at Santa Claus and kick the Easter bunny.

And all of the posts in this thread with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 were made last week, as in before yesterdays game. There are plenty of people celebrating that win yesterday, it was an incredible performance.

[BrentMc11]

And all of the posts in this thread with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 were made last week, as in before yesterdays game. There are plenty of people celebrating that win yesterday, it was an incredible performance.

I liked the play of both TE's yesterday myself......and boy do I wish we had not given up that 80 yd pass by Gabbert.....we would be 3-1...... :blueshoe: