Why the Saints suck

[Synthetic]

I will break it down nice and simple.

 

 

Defense gets all the blame, and yeah they're bad, but that don't mean the offense is innocent. Yep I'm talking about Drew Brees bad play, lack of deep throws, Sean Payton's inane play calling, and much much more.

 

Anyone that watches the Saints for more than a month will not disagree with me on this cause it's a fact - offense is nothing but short pass, ala dink and donk offense. Much like what the Patriots and Broncos run due to their aging QB's not being able to hit deep throws. For the Saints, the excuse I believe is stats. They don't care, as long as Brees gets his stats.

 

Did you know the Saints offense is ranked #1 in terms of yardage, yet they can't put more than 14 points on the board at home in their last two games?

 

I don't want to hear them complaining about lack of fan support either. As high as ticket prices are when we're in some of the worst economic conditions, I'm quite sure loud fans that leave while their team is sitting around doing nothing isn't the problem here.

 

 

Everything I hear about is how Rob Ryan needs to be fired and how the defense is so bad, so I am going to tell people, why the Saints shouldn't fire Rob Ryan and instead should be pointing fingers at Sean Payton and Drew Brees.

 

 

The Saints offense is stoppable. This has been proven all year, weather it be dumb turnovers or the fact they just do not score in the red zone period.

 

The short dink and donk offense may work for other teams, but with the Saints, it consists of long drives where they eat up 7 minutes on the clock, get to the red zone and then go for it on 4th down and come back with nothing.

 

The Pats also run this offense but there is a difference. They actually run the ball when their quarterback is struggling. They're not scared to get creative with pounding the ball. The Saints are the opposite. Earlier in the season we averaged over 150 rushing yards a game, in loses where Payton gave up on the run and Brees padded his stats.

 

You want to know the easy way to stopping Drew Brees? It's very simple. Run a Nickel defense, bringing up the safeties up front to shut down that pass to slot receivers. It comes down to short passes that never go beyond 10 yards and then the receiver doing the rest of the work.

If you want to make him feel pain, fine, blitz all you want. Brees (like the other "elite" quarterbacks, not named Aaron Rodgers) does not have any pocket awareness whatsoever. He never sees the hit coming from the side or behind, one of the main reasons he gets the ball knocked loose from his hand so often.

The Falcons came into the dome with just 16 sacks total. They proved that wasn't a problem cause Brees did not see them coming at all last sunday.

 

Oh yeah I forgot, cover Jimmy Graham. Don't care if you put 2 or 3, or even 4 guys on him, Brees will still force that ball to him....see the 49ers game for example. I am willing to bet and do math on all his interceptions in the last 2 years cause I'm sure over 3/4's of them came from balls he forces to Graham.

 

If the Saints get a good run game going thanks to great play by their running backs, don't worry. No matter how well the run works, they will give up on it and go back to the short dink and donk passes.

 

I noticed all year long, this team does not play anyone with real effort. Sure, they beat up Green Bay and Pittsburgh, but that's 2 games out of 15. They got lucky in those games too cause despite all the flack this defense catches, they did give Rodgers and Ben some problems with interceptions. Rodgers is having an MVP year and we lucked into getting two rare interceptions from him.

I give the defense praise cause they do get turnovers from time to time, they do at least try. That's something the offense does not do in crunch time.

 

Other than that, I'll admit it - Tampa Bay and Minnesota proved from the start this team had massive issues. It took a roughing the passer penalty against Minnesota (that almost was off set thanks to Brees wanting to brawl) and against Tampa Bay, I can go in long detail how my team needed 15 penalties to barely come back and beat a sorry Bucs team after our quarterback threw 3 bad interceptions.

 

At the end of the day, no one wants to talk about how screwed up our offense is. No one except me, amongst Saints fans, which isn't surpsing how hated I am among them for my honesty.

 

I can't remember the last time our offense came in and beat a top ranked defense. We get utterly destroyed by teams that know how to shut down the short pass dink and donk offense. Even Atlanta who's defense is ranked dead last, came in and sacked Brees 4 or 5 times last sunday and recorded 3 turnovers...OPPS! They did it again! Brees turnovers aren't that innocent!

 

The sad thing is, I know people of other fan bases that would do anything to have our run game. The Colts would be in heaven if Luck could hand the ball off and let Ingram/Thomas/Robinson run 120-130 yards on the ground and he not have to throw it so often. Imagine the Chargers with our run game.

 

This season was a lost cause. The Saints could have easily, limited their millioniare quarterback and made him take the back seat and forced the run game to be the premium of our offense, with the pass only there to carry the run, nope, not gonna happen with these egos on board. At least they get their stats. At least they have their passing stats to remind me of when I see that 6-9 record.

 

If there is such thing as karma, then Tampa Bay will extract revenge on this team in a few days. Revenge from what? Revenge from getting screwed in the superdome when they were up by 2 scores. Anyone that watched that game, you know what I'm talking about where the inane penalties on Tampa's offense backed them up from the 20 yardline all the way to the goal line where Glennon got sacked for a safety and that turned the game around.

As a fan, yeah, you don't mind getting calls like that. But I overanalyze this stuff and it bothered me when I watched it, and still does to this day. I don't even care if they win Sunday. They showed how much they really cared when they Atlanta trounce them and then blamed the fans for leaving the dome early. Of all the Jazz clubs in N.O., oh hell yeah I'd leave early instead of watching them lose like that. So if Tampa wants to come out and make them pay, I'm all for it. We deserve it, we deserved our pain and suffering this year that's for sure.

 

Last but not least - if this year proved anything to me in terms of quarterbacks, it's that I have been wrong. I am wrong for when I was overly hard on Aaron Rodgers for his playoff struggles. Of the 4 "elite" quarterbacks, and for the love of everything, do I hate using that word, but at the end of the day, Rodgers is the only one that deserves that title. He's the only one that can handle pressure and move around, not limiting himself to the pocket, and he's the only one that can still launch a bomb and actually complete it. I don't see the same quarterback I used to see in the other 3 golden boys.

[Jules]

You know you have serious issues when you can't win a bad division. The Panthers can even still win the division this Sunday. Yes those Panthers. The ones who looked like hot garbage on a stick all season long. I do think it should be Atlanta though because they at least win division games.

 

At least the Colts can win a bad division!!!! But, Houston has a pulse at times too to their credit. I mean sometimes......

 

 

Hell yeah the Saints sucked this year. Bad Bad Bad. But, they did blow A LOT of close games, especially in the first half of the year. If those bad bounces (and picks) in the end went towards the Saints instead they win the division easily.

 

They looked lazy and uninspired all year too. Brees/Payton need to wake up and realize 2009 was a long time ago now too. 

[IcEWoLF]

Panthers to their credit had not many offensive weapons to begin the year with...

They will be even better next year and I feel that TB will be even better next year...as far as the Saints and Falcons? Who knows, both had high hopes but somehow always find themselves choking.

[BloodyChamp]

Got to hand it to Bogie. He argues and argues but will come clean when the goose is cooked.

There's a difference between dink-and-dunk and a short passing game, if that makes any sense. The Pats have had a good short passing game for years. The 49ers had a good short passing game in the 80s.

[southwest1]

I applaud your detailed entry Bogie. It's not easy to be critical of, if not your favorite NFL team, then at least in your top 3 of squads you regularly watch. Right now, as I type these words, I am listening to Christmas songs on my computer's playlist & the very 1st song in my playlist is Nat King Cole's "Chestnuts Roasting On A Open Fire" funny since HC Sean Payton is on the hot seat & should face scrutiny not necessarily over an open fire, but he should face his own fair share of the blame as you suggest Bogie. 

 

What the hades made them let go of RB Darren Sproles? I still can't figure that 1 out to this day. Don't get me wrong, I do respect Mark Ingram & Pierre Thomas, but letting Sproles go to Philadelphia was insanely stupid. JMO.

 

"You want to know the easy way to stopping Drew Brees? It's very simple. Run a Nickel defense, bringing up the safeties up front to shut down that pass to slot receivers. It comes down to short passes that never go beyond 10 yards and then the receiver doing the rest of the work...The Pats also run this offense but there is a difference. They actually run the ball when their quarterback is struggling. They're not scared to get creative with pounding the ball...The Colts would be in heaven if Luck could hand the ball off and let Ingram/Thomas/Robinson run 120-130 yards on the ground and he not have to throw it so often."

 

Those are brilliant thoughts on your part Bogie & I still like DC Rob Ryan & I don't give a darn who calls me nuts either. 

 

Last, but not least, I gotta stand up for you more. Yeah, I know you don't any protection or reinforcements from anybody especially from me, but you're a darn nice guy, 1 of my first must reads on the forum, & it takes balls to give your Saints some tough love. Bravo Bogie! 

[crazycolt1]

Could it be bad karma?

[southwest1]

I found this an interesting read on Rob Ryan's future in Louisiana...

 

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2014/12/rob_ryans_eventual_dismissal_a.html#incart_most-read

 

""I want him back," cornerback Keenan Lewis said Monday. "I'm going to ride with him, 100 (percent). He's a great coordinator. You just can't blame him when things go wrong. We're the ones out there playing." 

 

I will be honest here. I have always loved Buddy Ryan going back to 85 Bears so naturally that in your face tenacity against NFL QBs automatically gets passed down in my eyes to Rex & Rob Ryan too. But, both of his sons clearly know what they are doing what with Rex taking the Jets to 2 AFC Championship Games & when Rob has a healthy LB & secondary core; He usually kicks caboose. 

 

I'm not firing Rob after 1 lackluster year when as you so eloquently said the offense played like crap as well. 

[southwest1]

You know you have serious issues when you can't win a bad division. The Panthers can even still win the division this Sunday. Yes those Panthers. The ones who looked like hot garbage on a stick all season long. I do think it should be Atlanta though because they at least win division games.

 

At least the Colts can win a bad division!!!! But, Houston has a pulse at times too to their credit. I mean sometimes......

 

 

Hell yeah the Saints sucked this year. Bad Bad Bad. But, they did blow A LOT of close games, especially in the first half of the year. If those bad bounces (and picks) in the end went towards the Saints instead they win the division easily.

 

They looked lazy and uninspired all year too. Brees/Payton need to wake up and realize 2009 was a long time ago now too. 

Bingo! Saints players had no fire in their belly this year at all & TE Jimmy Graham just looked like every opponent had his number in the Superdome this year. 2009 feels like a century ago in my football mind too & far from the days when Bill Belichick & Sean Payton went up against 1 another's squads in practice doesn't it Jules?

 

That's why I respect you; You cut right to & through the bone. Keep doing it Jules. That's an order or a polite command at least. Ha! Ha! 

[southwest1]

Off topic...Bogie, since you like director Michael Mann as much as I do, I was excited to see this new movie trailer of his on Christmas eve...

 

 

I get so mesmerized over how he makes the night come alive like a wild animal in all his pictures. Yes, I will see this flick in the theater & review it too. High praise from me since I seldom see films in person BTW.   He is without question, one of the best film makers in American cinema today because he never insults the intelligence of his audience & a compelling storyline always takes precedence over an incessant, explosion fetish of gratuitous violence. It's all about average guys backed into a corner with no alternative other than to cut you down to preserve their way of life & they will make the ultimate sacrifice if necessary. 

 

I am always so pumped to see a Mann film because I know how smart & sophisticated my audience experience is gonna be in the end once the credits roll. Nice...

 

Okay, back on topic. Sorry about my temporary detour buddy. Thanks for your patience. 

[southwest1]

One last note on Michael Mann the director & then I promise I will close the topic in this thread forever. You have my word. 

 

Mann is sly & savvy enough to avoid sequels of his feature films at all costs. He tells his story, documents the central character's internal struggles, brings the conflict resolution to it's climax, & he closes the book on this tale forever.

 

I admire directors who refuse to revisit a previous chapter & they just let it stand on it's own with no future revisions down the road. When Michael's done, he's done with no modifications or additions to speak of. 

 

Back to the Saints now...Yeah, I am shocked at how Brees & Payton can't score in the red zone at all this year. It's got me bewildered & perplexed anyway. 

[amfootball]

I just looked up the Saints offensive and defensive numbers - the offense is ranked 9 in points scored and 1 in yardage gained. The defense is ranked 29 in points allowed and 31 in yardage allowed. I think the major changes need to happen defensively. Not sure how any DC could make a case to stay with those rankings.

 

In terms of your last line about Rogers being the best, he is also the only one in his prime. The other 3 are over 35 or almost 40. A decline is natural and yet even with the decline Brady has the best record in football and in the MVP race and Manning is one win away from the bye and has thrown the most TDs this season.

[MJD42]

I just looked up the Saints offensive and defensive numbers - the offense is ranked 9 in points scored and 1 in yardage gained. The defense is ranked 29 in points allowed and 31 in yardage allowed. I think the major changes need to happen defensively. Not sure how any DC could make a case to stay with those rankings.

 

In terms of your last line about Rogers being the best, he is also the only one in his prime. The other 3 are over 35 or almost 40. A decline is natural and yet even with the decline Brady has the best record in football and in the MVP race and Manning is one win away from the bye and has thrown the most TDs this season.

Rodgers is also a loss away from finishing as the sixth seed ...

[HarryTheCat]

I am listening to Christmas songs on my computer's playlist & the very 1st song in my playlist is Nat King Cole's "Chestnuts Roasting On A Open Fire" 

It will probably be Sean Payton's nuts roasting on an open fire after this season.

[sportsworld33]

I think part of the Saints' problem is their a indoor team that plays in the south and all their opponents play in the south.

 

I really think the Saints when they do build a new stadium should build an outdoor stadium on grass.  It hasn't hurt the LSU Tigers.

 

When they have to travel and play teams on the road outdoors especially in bad weather or on grass it real slows them down.

[Synthetic]

Got to hand it to Bogie. He argues and argues but will come clean when the goose is cooked.

There's a difference between dink-and-dunk and a short passing game, if that makes any sense. The Pats have had a good short passing game for years. The 49ers had a good short passing game in the 80s.

 

 

I think it's the west coast offense that you're referring to that the Niners ran in the 80's, and yes there is a huge difference.

 

Green Bay still runs a west coast offense, and I believe they did in the 90's too. West coast teams run the ball, and that is a huge difference compared to the dink and donk crap the Saints run. They don't want the running backs to get all the glory it seems, cause all year long, it's sad how they give up pounding the ball and go back to throwing it.

 

And yes I will admit the cooking in games. That Tampa Bay game has left a sore in my head since it happened.

[Synthetic]

I think part of the Saints' problem is their a indoor team that plays in the south and all their opponents play in the south.

 

I really think the Saints when they do build a new stadium should build an outdoor stadium on grass.  It hasn't hurt the LSU Tigers.

 

When they have to travel and play teams on the road outdoors especially in bad weather or on grass it real slows them down.

 

 

That is the least of their problems. They can't even win at home, let alone win on the road. Last year they did beat Philly in the cold, and this year Chicago, if that counts (it don't to me)

[Synthetic]

I just looked up the Saints offensive and defensive numbers - the offense is ranked 9 in points scored and 1 in yardage gained. The defense is ranked 29 in points allowed and 31 in yardage allowed. I think the major changes need to happen defensively. Not sure how any DC could make a case to stay with those rankings.

 

In terms of your last line about Rogers being the best, he is also the only one in his prime. The other 3 are over 35 or almost 40. A decline is natural and yet even with the decline Brady has the best record in football and in the MVP race and Manning is one win away from the bye and has thrown the most TDs this season.

 

 

Stats do not tell the entire story. It's very easy to be misguided by them.

 

Defense is bad, but my entire point of this thread was to aim my targets at the offense cause offense has problems too.

 

For a team that ranks #1 in yardage stats, it's no excuse as to why they can't score more than 14 points at home against division rivals.

 

The defense does accumulate turnovers from time to time too. They at least try. The offense does not. It's frustrating when they can shoot up stats all day but don't know how to score points. Stats only tell one side of the story.

 

The clock stopped for the Saints in 2011. They still run an identical offense to that year, and defense still, always gets all the blame. They will scapegoat Rob Ryan and probably boot him after this season is over with, but Brees turnovers, Payton's poor play calling, that will never come under the microscope for questioning.

 

 

Jules is right too, 2009 was a long time ago. We've all changed quite a lot since then, and the older I get, the more I realize we were incredibly lucky that year too. Take away one fumble or just that one interception from Favre, and Vikings go to the Super Bowl. Statistically, they beat the crap out of us in that game. Had that game been in Minnesota, no question about it, they would have blown us out.

[Superman]

I think Bogie's hatred of everything, especially QBs, is crazy, but I give props for a well thought out post (with plenty of dramatic flair). No homerism there.

 

I don't agree with the majority of it, of course. The Saints and Sean Payton might have a flawed approach; I'm not sure that's so, but let's go with it. That team is still much better now than it's ever been. At least since the Jim Mora years. It's interesting to rag on Drew Brees when you're coming from guys like Aaron Brooks and Billy Joe Tolliver. I happen to think Payton and Brees make one of the best coach/QB combos in the league.

 

The team, overall, has plateaued, and now regressed. So yeah, some big changes need to be made. I don't think the coach or the QB need to go anywhere. That's silly. But the offensive line is suddenly leaky, the defense seems old and lacking playmakers, etc. They need to identify their core players and young up-and-comers, get rid of some dead weight (especially the overpaid guys), and create an environment of competition and "best man wins." And because Payton and Brees are good -- and they are, despite Bogie's vitriol -- they'll be able to compete in that division. 

[Synthetic]

I think Bogie's hatred of everything, especially QBs, is crazy, but I give props for a well thought out post (with plenty of dramatic flair). No homerism there.

 

I don't agree with the majority of it, of course. The Saints and Sean Payton might have a flawed approach; I'm not sure that's so, but let's go with it. That team is still much better now than it's ever been. At least since the Jim Mora years. It's interesting to rag on Drew Brees when you're coming from guys like Aaron Brooks and Billy Joe Tolliver. I happen to think Payton and Brees make one of the best coach/QB combos in the league.

 

The team, overall, has plateaued, and now regressed. So yeah, some big changes need to be made. I don't think the coach or the QB need to go anywhere. That's silly. But the offensive line is suddenly leaky, the defense seems old and lacking playmakers, etc. They need to identify their core players and young up-and-comers, get rid of some dead weight (especially the overpaid guys), and create an environment of competition and "best man wins." And because Payton and Brees are good -- and they are, despite Bogie's vitriol -- they'll be able to compete in that division. 

 

 

Kudos to you. It's a negative post, but I'm trying to be more realistic. Most Saints fans around me never ever talk bad about our offense, it's always the defense that gets blamed.

 

Thinking with the future ahead, I don't really believe we are going to make it far with Payton and Brees forever. Graham was another mistake, but again that's my personal taste. I've never been a big fan of the tight end overuse, I'd rather have wide receivers running deep routes any day of the week.

 

This year could have been a success if they stuck with the run when it was working. Mark Ingram has 900 rushing yards, that's the most a running back has ever had under Payton since 2006. We are that close to having our first 1,000 yard rusher since Deuce retired.

Hopefully, I can pray they get more creative with the run next year. I would rather have a strong running game cause it seems to be the future of the league. Seattle surely don't sit in fear to let Lynch go loose.

 

My dream scenario would be to land a rookie QB and rebuild like the Colts did around Luck but I doubt that happens.

 

I don't expect the NFC South to be this bad next year either. Tampa Bay, for a team that has only won 2 games, manages to lose so many close games under 10 points. They've always given us trouble too. Atlanta always plays the Saints like it's the Super Bowl. They save up every bit of energy to come out and kick us in the teeth, as they proved both times this year. That's what worries me the most. They couldn't compete the division this year when it's terrible, I doubt we'll get another season where all 4 teams are this bad.

 

P.S. those Aaron Brooks Saints teams were average at best, and it's strange to me cause Brooks is one of the most hated Saints players ever, yet before Brees, he was probably our best QB. I am not saying he's better than Brees, no way, but I will give props for when they were average. I do get tired of the "Katrina Saints" stereotype (big thanks to this forum for not using that joke, you have no idea how appreciative I am of this) because before 2006, we did have some decent teams in the early 90's and the early 2000's teams were average but not entirely bad to get all the flack they receive.

[Superman]

Kudos to you. It's a negative post, but I'm trying to be more realistic. Most Saints fans around me never ever talk bad about our offense, it's always the defense that gets blamed.

Thinking with the future ahead, I don't really believe we are going to make it far with Payton and Brees forever. Graham was another mistake, but again that's my personal taste. I've never been a big fan of the tight end overuse, I'd rather have wide receivers running deep routes any day of the week.

My dream scenario would be to land a rookie QB and rebuild like the Colts did around Luck but I doubt that happens.

I don't expect the NFC South to be this bad next year either. Tampa Bay, for a team that has only won 2 games, manages to lose so many close games under 10 points. They've always given us trouble too. Atlanta always plays the Saints like it's the Super Bowl. They save up every bit of energy to come out and kick us in the teeth, as they proved both times this year. That's what worries me the most. They couldn't compete the division this year when it's terrible, I doubt we'll get another season where all 4 teams are this bad.

I don't talk to Saints fans very often, so I would not be able to speak to that. But I understand why many of them are so defensive of the coach and QB.

As for the TE usage, I wonder what receivers you want them to throw to. Your receivers are bad, and really have always been bad. Colston gets props for making a name for himself as a 7th rounder, but he hasn't been very good lately, especially as a downfield threat. And then you have an assortment of JAGs filling out the rest of the corps. Brandin Cooks might be something, but hasn't played enough this season to know. That's why I said they need to re-tool. But I don't think Graham is the problem, even though he's overrated and overpaid.

Don't hold your breath on that rebuild. Brees isn't going anywhere. Maybe his play has taken a hit, but he's still a great QB. And more than that, he's an icon in New Orleans. I know you hate QBs, but the man meant a lot to the region, and helped you win a Super Bowl. You don't boot him on a whim. And there's no Andrew Luck on the horizon.

Your division needs work. I'm not a Lovie fan, so I don't think highly of the Bucs prospects. The Falcons are getting ready to make some major changes. I'll reserve judgment until after the draft. The Panthers are strong, but have a limited ceiling with Rivera. And division games are always tough, especially when there's a long time rivalry. The Saints need to re-tool, not rebuild. If effort is the issue, that's fixable. Get rid of low effort players. But that division hasn't had a repeat winner in 12 years. The Saints have a chance in 2015.

[dw49]

I just looked up the Saints offensive and defensive numbers - the offense is ranked 9 in points scored and 1 in yardage gained. The defense is ranked 29 in points allowed and 31 in yardage allowed. I think the major changes need to happen defensively. Not sure how any DC could make a case to stay with those rankings.

 

In terms of your last line about Rogers being the best, he is also the only one in his prime. The other 3 are over 35 or almost 40. A decline is natural and yet even with the decline Brady has the best record in football and in the MVP race and Manning is one win away from the bye and has thrown the most TDs this season.

 

 

Question... I recall in arguments about Andrew Luck vs another QB , when it's brought up the Andrew Luck went 11-5 as a rookie , you are very quick to respond that it "was the Colts that went 11-5 and not Andrew Luck. Ironic that it really was Andrew Luck as the Colts had a very poor salary cap depleted roster.. probably worse than the roster they went 2-14 the year before. No O Line , crap WR's and no running game or defense. 

 

Now when someone even hints that Brady is not all that wonderful anymore you come back with "Brady has the best mark in football." Never mind the fact they ran Grey 90 times for 772 years and 9 TD's against a pretty decent team (Colts) and didn't even bother to play him again . Plus that's a pretty nice defense they have in NE. You CONSTANTLY do this. Please stop it.

[amfootball]

Question... I recall in arguments about Andrew Luck vs another QB , when it's brought up the Andrew Luck went 11-5 as a rookie , you are very quick to respond that it "was the Colts that went 11-5 and not Andrew Luck. Ironic that it really was Andrew Luck as the Colts had a very poor salary cap depleted roster.. probably worse than the roster they went 2-14 the year before. No O Line , crap WR's and no running game or defense. 

 

Now when someone even hints that Brady is not all that wonderful anymore you come back with "Brady has the best mark in football." Never mind the fact they ran Grey 90 times for 772 years and 9 TD's against a pretty decent team (Colts) and didn't even bother to play him again . Plus that's a pretty nice defense they have in NE. You CONSTANTLY do this. Please stop it.

Did you miss the part where I said Brady is in the MVP race? Many have him second behind Rogers. He is the biggest reason for that best mark in football.

 

I don't ever remember not giving credit to Andrew Luck for the Colts turn around. In fact, I have had many Colts fans correct me and say that it was not all Andrew Luck in year one given all his rookie mistakes and turnovers but a very opportunistic defense along with a lot of luck, no pun intended.

[chad72]

The weird part is the Saints might win as many games on the road as at home when the season is all said and done. 

 

They need a second TE on the field all the time to run block more and need another go to guy other than an aging Marques Colston to assist Jimmy Graham. Their O went down the toilet once their speedster rookie that they drafted (Brandin Cooks) went on IR. Plus, tackling, where do I start with the Saints' defense? 

 

Just a few things that I saw.

[dw49]

Did you miss the part where I said Brady is in the MVP race? Many have him second behind Rogers. He is the biggest reason for that best mark in football.

 

I don't ever remember not giving credit to Andrew Luck for the Colts turn around. In fact, I have had many Colts fans correct me and say that it was not all Andrew Luck in year one given all his rookie mistakes and turnovers but a very opportunistic defense along with a lot of luck, no pun intended.

 

 

Many of those turnovers came in losses that we were totally outmatched. Eight ints came against the Bears , NE and the Jets. Those were 3 games that he just had to keep chucking it and we never were in those games. I watched every minute of every game and I'd say out of the 11 RS wins , the GB and Detriot wins were "lucky wins." The Jacksonville loss was an "unlucky loss" , so I would only really give it a net 1. 

 

If you did say "luck won 11 games" , then my bad and you are excused.

[amfootball]

Many of those turnovers came in losses that we were totally outmatched. Eight ints came against the Bears , NE and the Jets. Those were 3 games that he just had to keep chucking it and we never were in those games. I watched every minute of every game and I'd say out of the 11 RS wins , the GB and Detriot wins were "lucky wins." The Jacksonville loss was an "unlucky loss" , so I would only really give it a net 1. 

 

If you did say "luck won 11 games" , then my bad and you are excused.

Why do you think he has reverted back to so many turnovers this year? He did well last year cutting them in half.

[pacolts56]

One last note on Michael Mann the director & then I promise I will close the topic in this thread forever. You have my word. 

 

Mann is sly & savvy enough to avoid sequels of his feature films at all costs. He tells his story, documents the central character's internal struggles, brings the conflict resolution to it's climax, & he closes the book on this tale forever.

 

I admire directors who refuse to revisit a previous chapter & they just let it stand on it's own with no future revisions down the road. When Michael's done, he's done with no modifications or additions to speak of. 

 

Back to the Saints now...Yeah, I am shocked at how Brees & Payton can't score in the red zone at all this year. It's got me bewildered & perplexed anyway. 

And SW1....the Saints could use eleven Mr. Dollarhydes (the "Manhunter" whack job) on defense as well.

[dw49]

Why do you think he has reverted back to so many turnovers this year? He did well last year cutting them in half.

 

Most are tipped balls and trying to keep dead plays alive. Only a few were really bad reads or bad throws. If he had the protection Brady had , probably half the ints. Last year the Colts also wasted half a season pretending to have a power running game. This year they just have Luck throw it 50 times. Also if you look at his int "rate" , it's pretty much in line with the other good QB's in the game. Other than Brady , Rodgers and Wilson

[southwest1]

And SW1....the Saints could use eleven Mr. Dollarhydes (the "Manhunter" whack job) on defense as well.

Good one PAC56. I actually forgot that Michael Mann directed that 1986 film until you jokingly mentioned it. Well done. Take a bow. You earned it. 

[southwest1]

It will probably be Sean Payton's nuts roasting on an open fire after this season.

He's the only SB winning head coach that franchise has ever had though. The Saints were a miserable organization long before Coach Payton ever got there. However, Mike Ditka has a SB ring too & he got fired in New Orleans too so I guess a Championship doesn't make anyone bullet proof in the eyes of ownership either HTC. 

[southwest1]

I just looked up the Saints offensive and defensive numbers - the offense is ranked 9 in points scored and 1 in yardage gained. The defense is ranked 29 in points allowed and 31 in yardage allowed. I think the major changes need to happen defensively. Not sure how any DC could make a case to stay with those rankings.

Easy. If Rob Ryan is well liked in the Bayou which he is & fans & his boss Sean Payton chalk it up to key injuries on defense that the Saints couldn't overcome. 

 

Do you think if the Patriots DC Matt Patricia had 1 horrible season he'd be fired too? Of course not, because he's well liked in the locker room & 1 bad year rarely ends in immediate dismissal AMF. 

[Synthetic]

Off topic...Bogie, since you like director Michael Mann as much as I do, I was excited to see this new movie trailer of his on Christmas eve...

 

 

I get so mesmerized over how he makes the night come alive like a wild animal in all his pictures. Yes, I will see this flick in the theater & review it too. High praise from me since I seldom see films in person BTW.   He is without question, one of the best film makers in American cinema today because he never insults the intelligence of his audience & a compelling storyline always takes precedence over an incessant, explosion fetish of gratuitous violence. It's all about average guys backed into a corner with no alternative other than to cut you down to preserve their way of life & they will make the ultimate sacrifice if necessary. 

 

I am always so pumped to see a Mann film because I know how smart & sophisticated my audience experience is gonna be in the end once the credits roll. Nice...

 

Okay, back on topic. Sorry about my temporary detour buddy. Thanks for your patience. 

 

 

Cheers for that, I have a soft spot for Michael Mann. Great director, one of the few I will tolerate when it comes to action films.

 

There's a lot of films today that are down right insulting. Michael Bay is guilty as charged.

[Synthetic]

The weird part is the Saints might win as many games on the road as at home when the season is all said and done. 

 

They need a second TE on the field all the time to run block more and need another go to guy other than an aging Marques Colston to assist Jimmy Graham. Their O went down the toilet once their speedster rookie that they drafted (Brandin Cooks) went on IR. Plus, tackling, where do I start with the Saints' defense? 

 

Just a few things that I saw.

 

 

The Saints don't need another TE after we've spent the last 3 seasons revolving our entire offense around Jimmy Graham.

 

Last year, someone ran a stat sheet and broke down Brees' distribution of passes, and 70% of them went to the Tight End or the Running Back.

 

This year, the keying on Graham has been so bad, he will force balls to him even when he's triple covered, or with 4 guys covering him, as proven against San Francisco.

 

The Saints offensive problems could easily be solved with what they have to work with. They have 3 explosive running backs. They could easily, get more creative with running it and run it down people's throats. We ran it so well in loses early in the season. We don't need to throw 40-50 passes a game when you run the ball that well. After the 49ers game, they completely gave up on the run for the rest of the season.

 

If it was up to me, I would trade Jimmy Graham for draft picks, or at least a deep threat wide receiver. Saints got rid of their deep threats when they reverted to one dimensional short pass offense. Graham is not a deep threat either, he's already incredibly over used.

 

Brandin Cooks is going to be a great player if we don't continue to riddle him with injuries. Colston has regressed so bad. That fumble against Atlanta cost us the game in week 1 and this year, he has dropped so many passes. They all drop passes, but he and Graham are really good at this. That's the main reason I criticize them so hard for lack of play. They have looked drained all year, minus the GB and Pittsburgh game, and those two games showed the defense could get turnovers.

[Synthetic]

I don't talk to Saints fans very often, so I would not be able to speak to that. But I understand why many of them are so defensive of the coach and QB.

As for the TE usage, I wonder what receivers you want them to throw to. Your receivers are bad, and really have always been bad. Colston gets props for making a name for himself as a 7th rounder, but he hasn't been very good lately, especially as a downfield threat. And then you have an assortment of JAGs filling out the rest of the corps. Brandin Cooks might be something, but hasn't played enough this season to know. That's why I said they need to re-tool. But I don't think Graham is the problem, even though he's overrated and overpaid.

Don't hold your breath on that rebuild. Brees isn't going anywhere. Maybe his play has taken a hit, but he's still a great QB. And more than that, he's an icon in New Orleans. I know you hate QBs, but the man meant a lot to the region, and helped you win a Super Bowl. You don't boot him on a whim. And there's no Andrew Luck on the horizon.

Your division needs work. I'm not a Lovie fan, so I don't think highly of the Bucs prospects. The Falcons are getting ready to make some major changes. I'll reserve judgment until after the draft. The Panthers are strong, but have a limited ceiling with Rivera. And division games are always tough, especially when there's a long time rivalry. The Saints need to re-tool, not rebuild. If effort is the issue, that's fixable. Get rid of low effort players. But that division hasn't had a repeat winner in 12 years. The Saints have a chance in 2015.

 

 

Tampa Bay regardless of coach, seems to always give the Saints one very tough game every year. That's been a trend since 2008, and that's 4 coaches now. They normally give us one very hard game, and sometimes beat us (2011, they cost us the #2 seed) then they get blown out in the rematch. I hate playing them cause I never know what to expect. Last year, they nearly beat us, and rumor has it that they injured Brees in that game, cause he was not the same after McCoy forced that fumble. In 2011, they did beat us, and they beat us back in 2009 as well.

 

I find Atlanta to be lucky. Their defense is ranked dead last, and now they are finally playing a lot better.

 

It kills me to know we lost so many close games that we could have easily won. Defense and offense both are to blame in both these games. Falcons sadly have us to thank for blowing it in Detroit, Cleveland, Atlanta, and the 49ers game.

 

Before 2011, we often used what little talent we had to stretch the field. Yes, the receivers are often B and C grade, but Brees could make them work. But in the past, the screens were probably our #1 weapon. The use of screen passes has declined gradually as the rest of the league is not so easily fooled by it anymore.

 

A lot of Saints fans really hate Meachem. I don't, I have a little more appreciation for him than I did in the past after last year, though he's been a non factor this year.

 

The one receiver I really miss is Lance Moore. He stayed hurt a lot, but they used him as a deep threat and years ago, he had his moments of burning secondaries.

[rock8591]

I blame Cameron Jordan and Akiem Hicks both having huge down seasons.

[southwest1]

Cheers for that, I have a soft spot for Michael Mann. Great director, one of the few I will tolerate when it comes to action films.

 

There's a lot of films today that are down right insulting. Michael Bay is guilty as charged.

Exactly Bogie. Mann is usually brilliant while Bay needs to have his films sunk to the bottom of the ocean & sealed shut tight never to witness his trashy film making ever again because his pictures are so loud & overpoweringly bright that they normally give me a headache even watching them on regular TV. 

 

Thanks again for cluing me into how good actor James Caan was in 1981's "Thief" with a really good techno soundtrack by Tangerine Dream & techno isn't usually my 1st choice musically but I liked their clever use of synthesizers throughout the picture.  

 

What I admire most about him is I will notice something different everytime I watch a film of his I like that I missed in my previous viewing. His films grow on you like a fungus. Something you appreciate as you get older because his flicks are just genuinely real. Leaps & bounds ahead of contemporary crap that passes for entertainment these days as you are well aware. I saw "Heat" on TV 2 weeks ago & the Pacino/De Niro restaurant scene & death scene near the airport still gives me chills man. And that Miles Davis night club scene with Tom Cruise in "Collateral" still gives me goose bumps every darn time I see it. 

[amfootball]

Easy. If Rob Ryan is well liked in the Bayou which he is & fans & his boss Sean Payton chalk it up to key injuries on defense that the Saints couldn't overcome. 

 

Do you think if the Patriots DC Matt Patricia had 1 horrible season he'd be fired too? Of course not, because he's well liked in the locker room & 1 bad year rarely ends in immediate dismissal AMF. 

Ryan also has his firing from the Cowboy so he has a history of poor DC coaching. I don't think he should be fired but was more challenging Bogie's assertion that the offense should be looked at moreso than the defense.

[amfootball]

Most are tipped balls and trying to keep dead plays alive. Only a few were really bad reads or bad throws. If he had the protection Brady had , probably half the ints. Last year the Colts also wasted half a season pretending to have a power running game. This year they just have Luck throw it 50 times. Also if you look at his int "rate" , it's pretty much in line with the other good QB's in the game. Other than Brady , Rodgers and Wilson

Brady has not had good protection.

[RockThatBlue]

It will probably be Sean Payton's nuts roasting on an open fire after this season.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't bust out laughing at this.

[southwest1]

Kudos to you. It's a negative post, but I'm trying to be more realistic. Most Saints fans around me never ever talk bad about our offense, it's always the defense that gets blamed.

 

Thinking with the future ahead, I don't really believe we are going to make it far with Payton and Brees forever. Graham was another mistake, but again that's my personal taste. I've never been a big fan of the tight end overuse, I'd rather have wide receivers running deep routes any day of the week.

 

This year could have been a success if they stuck with the run when it was working. Mark Ingram has 900 rushing yards, that's the most a running back has ever had under Payton since 2006. We are that close to having our first 1,000 yard rusher since Deuce retired.

Hopefully, I can pray they get more creative with the run next year. I would rather have a strong running game cause it seems to be the future of the league. Seattle surely don't sit in fear to let Lynch go loose.

 

My dream scenario would be to land a rookie QB and rebuild like the Colts did around Luck but I doubt that happens.

 

I don't expect the NFC South to be this bad next year either. Tampa Bay, for a team that has only won 2 games, manages to lose so many close games under 10 points. They've always given us trouble too. Atlanta always plays the Saints like it's the Super Bowl. They save up every bit of energy to come out and kick us in the teeth, as they proved both times this year. That's what worries me the most. They couldn't compete the division this year when it's terrible, I doubt we'll get another season where all 4 teams are this bad.

 

P.S. those Aaron Brooks Saints teams were average at best, and it's strange to me cause Brooks is one of the most hated Saints players ever, yet before Brees, he was probably our best QB. I am not saying he's better than Brees, no way, but I will give props for when they were average. I do get tired of the "Katrina Saints" stereotype (big thanks to this forum for not using that joke, you have no idea how appreciative I am of this) because before 2006, we did have some decent teams in the early 90's and the early 2000's teams were average but not entirely bad to get all the flack they receive.

Yeah, Drew Brees leans on Jimmy too much & he needs to use Graham as more of a decoy vs real TD threat so CBs roll coverage Jimmy's way to open up other player routes downfield. 

 

I sure know how fortunate INDY was to have Curtis Painter play so horrifically that we landed Andrew Luck. Yes, we have been bless at the QB position. No argument there. 

[southwest1]

Ryan also has his firing from the Cowboy so he has a history of poor DC coaching. I don't think he should be fired but was more challenging Bogie's assertion that the offense should be looked at moreso than the defense.

Technically no. He was let go because his defensive tendencies didn't fair well with owner Jerry Jones who wanted to bring in Monte Kiffin who later got dismissed. Jerry even said it had nothing to do with Rob's skills as a DC just a difference in NFL philosophies that's all. 

 

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/10367651/monte-kiffin-loses-dallas-cowboys-defensive-coordinator-title-rod-marinelli

 

Besides, there's been so many coordinator changes in Dallas that Rob Ryan can hardly be blamed for any coordinator woes in Cowboys country. Until the HC Jason Garret decided to run the ball consistently, this organization was a walking joke of incompetence. Rob Ryan is not the only coaching casualty in Dallas AMF & Bill Belichick hired Rob too if I'm not mistaken as well from 2000-2003. He's not an a foolish DC who has no idea what he's doing okay. 

 

Could Ryan be let go? Sure, but if you look at his whole tenure at New Orleans, he deserves at least 1 more year minimum with a healthy group of LBs & DBs at his disposal. 

 

I will concede though that as much as I respect Rob Ryan, if I had an opportunity to slide Rex his brother in there as DC, I'd do it immediately with no hesitation whatsoever. I won't lie. 

 

Safety Jairus Byrd going down didn't help either. My point here is this: Rob Ryan has extenuating circumstances that play a crucial role in his evaluation as DC for 2014 AMF. 1 that cannot be ignored.