Why Luck struggled on 3rd down in 2013

[OldSchoolColt]

Nice read and analysis. Pep's play calling on 3rd down seems like it was part of the problem last year. Glad we have Rob Chudzinski for a second opinion on the playbook.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2133631-indianapolis-colts-film-review-why-andrew-luck-struggled-on-third-down?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming

 

 

 

 

 

[Smonroe]

Nice read and analysis. Pep's play calling on 3rd down seems like it was part of the problem last year. Glad we have Rob Chudzinski for a second opinion on the playbook.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2133631-indianapolis-colts-film-review-why-andrew-luck-struggled-on-third-down?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming

Excellent article. Kyle does extensive research and he's usually spot on.

There's a reason for some of those "bad" formations, and it simply goes back to the Oline's ability to protect the QB. Kind of hard to have formations where multiple receivers are out or they run longer routes when Luck isn't getting enough time to let them get to their spots.

Overall, he's right. I'm confident our coaching also see the problem and will make adjustments.

[TKnight24]

Just completely remove the "jumbo" set and I'll be happy

But then again...... Addition by subtraction. Satele & McGlynn are now gone so maybe we can run the jumbo set to some success

We'll see

[Legend of Luck]

Very interesting article.

Obviously not concerned about Andrew, but I really hope Pep noticed these issues and is correcting them.

[dudeski]

I don't have much fath in pep as a nfl oc.

[21isSuperman]

Well written article.  I think the key is Pep's development as an OC.  At the start of the year, his play-calling was maddening (and some of the examples from the article really leave you wondering what he was thinking).  But as the season went on, he seemed to get a better feel for what plays to call at what times.  I remember our first touchdown drive in the Chiefs game was unreal.  It was like we were barely trying and were still able to carve up their defense.  We have lots of talent at RB, WR, and TE, so the problem isn't a lack of talented weapons.  We know these guys can execute.  It falls on Pep being able to make better calls more consistently.

 

I also think giving Luck more control at the line is a good thing.  He obviously has a very high football IQ, so he knows what to look for.

[oldunclemark]

Nice read and analysis. Pep's play calling on 3rd down seems like it was part of the problem last year. Glad we have Rob Chudzinski for a second opinion on the playbook.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2133631-indianapolis-colts-film-review-why-andrew-luck-struggled-on-third-down?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming

That's a max effort analysis there..A lot of good stuff...... but 2 thoughts..

Is 3rd down conversion rate partly symblolic of a good QB? Or any QB? Is that what was being said?

What I didn't see considered was where on the field the 3rd downs occurred....

3rd-and-9 at the Indy 30 is different from 3rd-and-9 at the other teams' 30..

I'm guessing that Peyton Manning was No.1 to some extent because he threw a lot on first and second as a game plan and when that worked....he was throwing 3rd downs mostly from midfield on in.....and the playbook was a little deeper..

To this guys credit..he strongly suggest that Luck didnt struggle when Reggie Wayne was in the lineup..

Maybe looking beyond that fact is overanalysis

[throwing BBZ]

Dungish.
 So on 3rd down Andrew was 2nd (ahead of Manning) in Conversion % and 1st in 3rd down QBR in the NFL until Reggie left,

 but  EVEN IF PEP Doesn`t "drastically improve" his play calling, we should improve? What a Tool!!!

 

 I think i will go with memories of Madden saying the old fashioned "the receiver needs to know where the first down yard marker is". Or how about a receiver adjusting his route against that cover 2 and breaking off the route and coming back for the ball.

 Things Veterans, mature offenses do. 101
 

 Pep is fine and will of course grow and adapt his offense as the players he IS GIVEN improve/show their ability to beat the guys across from them.
 We dumped some serious Stank from last years O, and have Reggie, DAllen returning, Pep has to be smiling!

[Superman]

This article was well done. 

 

Knowing that the receivers will be better (KR doesn't even mention DHB and his 15% drop rate) is enough for me. Add an anticipation that Luck and Pep should be improved in terms of play calling, recognition and execution, and our offense should be much better on third down. And of course, we all still hope that the offensive line will be better. Plenty of reasons for optimism.

 

Best part about it is that the better we are on third down, the more pressure we take off our defense. Long scoring drives are a defense's best friend.

[TKnight24]

This article was well done.

Knowing that the receivers will be better (KR doesn't even mention DHB and his 15% drop rate) is enough for me. Add an anticipation that Luck and Pep should be improved in terms of play calling, recognition and execution, and our offense should be much better on third down. And of course, we all still hope that the offensive line will be better. Plenty of reasons for optimism.

Best part about it is that the better we are on third down, the more pressure we take off our defense. Long scoring drives are a defense's best friend.

I believe it was you who started the "Addition by Subtraction" movement

Getting rid of Satele & McGlynn has already improved us. I honestly don't believe any of our current linemen can be worse than those 2 even the rookies & Thornton

[Superman]

I believe it was you who started the "Addition by Subtraction" movement

Getting rid of Satele & McGlynn has already improved us. I honestly don't believe any of our current linemen can be worse than those 2 even the rookies & Thornton

 

Not gonna take credit for starting it, but I fully subscribe to it. 

[crazycolt1]

I don't have much fath in pep as a nfl oc.

So a rookie OC who had some serious injury problems along with a new system in place draws your rant? Not to mention he was very short on veterans on the roster. Sorry, I don't have faith in your reasoning skills. Oh, by the way since you seem to dislike our offense so bad the Colts did win a division title and a playoff game in spite of all the negatives that Pep had to deal with. Not too bad for an OC as a rookie. I would bet that most all rookie OCs who enter the league would like very much to have a record as well as Pep's.

[TKnight24]

So a rookie OC who had some serious injury problems along with a new system in place draws your rant? Not to mention he was very short on veterans on the roster. Sorry, I don't have faith in your reasoning skills. Oh, by the way since you seem to dislike our offense so bad the Colts did win a division title and a playoff game in spite of all the negatives that Pep had to deal with. Not too bad for an OC as a rookie. I would bet that most all rookie OCs who enter the league would like very much to have a record as well as Pep's.

Well, can't give Pep all the credit. I mean we do have a once in a generation QB under center

But still I see your point

[twfish]

So a rookie OC who had some serious injury problems along with a new system in place draws your rant? Not to mention he was very short on veterans on the roster. Sorry, I don't have faith in your reasoning skills. Oh, by the way since you seem to dislike our offense so bad the Colts did win a division title and a playoff game in spite of all the negatives that Pep had to deal with. Not too bad for an OC as a rookie. I would bet that most all rookie OCs who enter the league would like very much to have a record as well as Pep's.

There's several things I agree with on this post. I do like the fact that were bringing in people who luck is comfortable with from college. However I do not beleive he will be a great OC for this team. Thats just my opinion, its a opinion not heavily influenced by the past year and I dont have facts supporting me. Its just a feeling I have and I hope he proves me wrong

[dudeski]

So a rookie OC who had some serious injury problems along with a new system in place draws your rant? Not to mention he was very short on veterans on the roster. Sorry, I don't have faith in your reasoning skills. Oh, by the way since you seem to dislike our offense so bad the Colts did win a division title and a playoff game in spite of all the negatives that Pep had to deal with. Not too bad for an OC as a rookie. I would bet that most all rookie OCs who enter the league would like very much to have a record as well as Pep's.

look at the division. Stop talking about the record and actually watch a game.

Pep was not good.

[crazycolt1]

look at the division. Stop talking about the record and actually watch a game.

Pep was not good.

So the wins over the 49ers, Seahawks, Broncos and Chiefs were in the Colts division? Watch a game? I not only watched every game but have them recorded. You are so ate up with being negative you fail to see reality.

[dudeski]

So the wins over the 49ers, Seahawks, Broncos and Chiefs were in the Colts division? Watch a game? I not only watched every game but have them recorded. You are so ate up with being negative you fail to see reality.

right. Every win is a great job by pep.

Give me a break. Pep wasn't good last year. You can see reality if you want. Or just hang out in that bubble

[crazycolt1]

right. Every win is a great job by pep.

Give me a break. Pep wasn't good last year. You can see reality if you want. Or just hang out in that bubble

Stay on your negative attitude. It suits you well. Your failure to see the positives with the Colts is very narrow minded at best. Bubble? I am sorry to inform you that it seems your football knowledge is limited. Reality is realized when your expectations are reasonable. You have your opinion just as I have mine. I am through with this debate because to have a debate it takes an open mind and it is clear you lack the ability to respect or understand someone's point but your own. 

[dudeski]

Stay on your negative attitude. It suits you well. Your failure to see the positives with the Colts is very narrow minded at best. Bubble? I am sorry to inform you that it seems your football knowledge is limited. Reality is realized when your expectations are reasonable. You have your opinion just as I have mine. I am through with this debate because to have a debate it takes an open mind and it is clear you lack the ability to respect or understand someone's point but your own.

no. A debate does not require an open mind. That just isn't factual.

Pep was bad the majority of the time last year. That is a fact. The games prove it to be so.

[crazycolt1]

no. A debate does not require an open mind. That just isn't factual.

Pep was bad the majority of the time last year. That is a fact. The games prove it to be so.

The games proved it to be so?  Where is your argument? The Colts went 11-5 with a division crown with wins over both super bowl teams. You are arguing with yourself. Now go find another person to peddle your nonsense to because I am done with you. Ignore is a nice thing.

[NewColtsFan]

no. A debate does not require an open mind. That just isn't factual.

Pep was bad the majority of the time last year. That is a fact. The games prove it to be so.

 

You're very loose and very quick with using the expression....  "that is a fact"....

 

Fact is....   I'm not even sure you know what the word means and when it's appropriate to use it.

 

The majority of the time you use it.....   it's nothing more than your opinion.     THAT is a fact.

[Bobbycovert]

look at the division. Stop talking about the record and actually watch a game.

Pep was not good.

San Francisco, Seattle, Denver = outside the Colts division..try again?

[dudeski]

San Francisco, Seattle, Denver = outside the Colts division..try again?

point was, our division is easy to win

[SilentHill]

The games proved it to be so?  Where is your argument? The Colts went 11-5 with a division crown with wins over both super bowl teams. You are arguing with yourself. Now go find another person to peddle your nonsense to because I am done with you. Ignore is a nice thing.

 

You are being no better, by just pointing to our record, and wins.

 

There were numerous occasions where the offensive play calling was atrocious last season, regardless if we eventually won the game or not.

[crazycolt1]

You are being no better, by just pointing to our record, and wins.

 

There were numerous occasions where the offensive play cun or pass block. alling was atrocious last season, regardless if we eventually won the game or not.

Records and wins?  I kind of thought those are what and how a team is measured. If you can't understand the position that Pep was in I would suggest looking at the bigger picture rather a small amount of plays. Not one game did Pep call plays in where he had any offensive line players who were good enough to run or pass block with any continuity. Had Luck not had the skill and mental capacity he showed he would have been one of the most sacked quarterbacks in the league. To lay all the so called bad plays called on just Pep without seeing why some plays didn't work is not realizing that Pep didn't have the personal he needed. In spite of all that the Colts went 11-5 on the backs of the skilled players who were on the field. 

[Superman]

Records and wins?  I kind of thought those are what and how a team is measured. If you can't understand the position that Pep was in I would suggest looking at the bigger picture rather a small amount of plays. Not one game did Pep call plays in where he had any offensive line players who were good enough to run or pass block with any continuity. Had Luck not had the skill and mental capacity he showed he would have been one of the most sacked quarterbacks in the league. To lay all the so called bad plays called on just Pep without seeing why some plays didn't work is not realizing that Pep didn't have the personal he needed. In spite of all that the Colts went 11-5 on the backs of the skilled players who were on the field. 

 

Do you think that, because the team won, that means Pep did a good job developing the gameplan and calling plays?

[crazycolt1]

There's several things I agree with on this post. I do like the fact that were bringing in people who luck is comfortable with from college. However I do not beleive he will be a great OC for this team. Thats just my opinion, its a opinion not heavily influenced by the past year and I dont have facts supporting me. Its just a feeling I have and I hope he proves me wrong

I very much like your response. I too am in the waiting mode. My only point is it way too early to assume that Pep is a bad offensive coordinator. He hasn't had the time or the personnel to gauge what he will become.

[crazycolt1]

Do you think that, because the team won, that means Pep did a good job developing the gameplan and calling plays?

I though I explained my thoughts and opinion pretty well. How many rookie anything's come in the league and are tops at what they do? Only time will tell but to automatically call Pep a bust is not giving him the opportunity to show he can do the job. 

[Superman]

I though I explained my thoughts and opinion pretty well. How many rookie anything's come in the league and are tops at what they do? Only time will tell but to automatically call Pep a bust is not giving him the opportunity to show he can do the job. 

 

I think your argument is a poor one. Just because we won 11 games doesn't mean Pep is above reproach. I think there's plenty to be critical of with regard to his gameplans and playcalling, and that six week stretch where we struggled to score in the first half is the prime example. Some of our blocking concepts and passing concepts throughout the season made zero sense, particularly on third down.

 

I definitely expect Pep to get better, just like anyone gets better as they gain experience. (As an aside, I don't like the way he was hired, and I'm not convinced he was the best option for the job. As a rule, I prefer an exhaustive search to fill critical vacancies, not a defacto appointment, like Pep received. That doesn't mean he can't be a good coordinator, just something that irritates me.) And we have some key players coming back, and hopefully the line play is better, and Luck should continue to improve, etc.

 

So no, I don't think he's a bust, and he should get the opportunity to show that he can improve. But again, saying "well we won 11 games, Pep can't be that bad," isn't an effective argument.

[crazycolt1]

Do you think that, because the team won, that means Pep did a good job developing the gameplan and calling plays?

On a side thought Pep did have something to do with calling the plays that won those 11 games. 

[Superman]

On a side thought Pep did have something to do with calling the plays that won those 11 games. 

 

It's a yes/no question. 

 

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, so let me just say this: Just because the team won, that doesn't mean the coordinator did a good job with the gameplan or the playcalling. In the same vein, if the team lost, that doesn't mean the gameplan or playcalling was at fault. One thing doesn't prove or disprove the other.

 

By the way, it could be that the offensive playcalling was the primary reason for the five games the team lost, in which case, there's plenty of reason to criticize the coordinator. I'm not suggesting that's the case here, just demonstrating why that's not a good argument.

[IndyPhil]

On a side thought Pep did have something to do with calling the plays that won those 11 games. 

I felt we won many of those games due to abandoning the game plan and putting the ball in lucks hands to create out of chaos.  It looked like the offensive line was not up to the task for Peps game plan.  My beef with pep's play calling was it looked like he was shoving a game plan down the teams throat even though the personnel we had did not fit the scheme.   I also couldn't stand Arians either so maybe I'm just a negative person who shouldn't voice my opinion, but I thought I may as well.

[crazycolt1]

I think your argument is a poor one. Just because we won 11 games doesn't mean Pep is above reproach. I think there's plenty to be critical of with regard to his gameplans and playcalling, and that six week stretch where we struggled to score in the first half is the prime example. Some of our blocking concepts and passing concepts throughout the season made zero sense, particularly on third down.

 

I definitely expect Pep to get better, just like anyone gets better as they gain experience. (As an aside, I don't like the way he was hired, and I'm not convinced he was the best option for the job. As a rule, I prefer an exhaustive search to fill critical vacancies, not a defacto appointment, like Pep received. That doesn't mean he can't be a good coordinator, just something that irritates me.) And we have some key players coming back, and hopefully the line play is better, and Luck should continue to improve, etc.

 

So no, I don't think he's a bust, and he should get the opportunity to show that he can improve. But again, saying "well we won 11 games, Pep can't be that bad," isn't an effective argument.

I had no argumentative comments. This point counter point is a debate that I feel that some are way too early in writing Pep off as a bad coordinator. I fully understand your earlier points but like I said and believe, he will improve. His in game adjustments when the game was on the line at times were very good. The key is the trenches and that is where the Colts struggled. My only disagreement is saying the Colts problems were all Peps faults. In my opinion he was trying to avoid falling into the same mode as in the past with Manning having to carry the whole load. Quite a few games last season we're played against some pretty good defenses and game planning not always work especially when the Colts are missing some key pieces. 

[Superman]

I had no argumentative comments. This point counter point is a debate that I feel that some are way too early in writing Pep off as a bad coordinator. I fully understand your earlier points but like I said and believe, he will improve. His in game adjustments when the game was on the line at times were very good. The key is the trenches and that is where the Colts struggled. My only disagreement is saying the Colts problems were all Peps faults. In my opinion he was trying to avoid falling into the same mode as in the past with Manning having to carry the whole load. Quite a few games last season we're played against some pretty good defenses and game planning not always work especially when the Colts are missing some key pieces. 

 

That's very fair. With it being his first year, being plagued with terrible line play, losing four of his best offensive weapons and probably his best lineman in the first half of the season, and playing some really good teams, it's hard to make any kind of determination about Pep. I certainly don't blame him for all the problems, and it's way too early to write him off.

 

I just don't think it makes sense to say that Pep is good just because we went 11-5. That's not good analysis.

 

There are lots of things Pep can do better as the steward of the offense. He made improvements throughout the year, especially at the end of the season. The read option in the Chiefs game is evidence that he's not overly rigid and closed-minded. I'd like to see some additional adjustments, but I think he was moving in the right direction. I'm optimistic about him, but I understand the reasons for the criticisms that he faces, and I think they are legitimate.

[Nobody]

So a rookie OC who had some serious injury problems along with a new system in place draws your rant? Not to mention he was very short on veterans on the roster. Sorry, I don't have faith in your reasoning skills. Oh, by the way since you seem to dislike our offense so bad the Colts did win a division title and a playoff game in spite of all the negatives that Pep had to deal with. Not too bad for an OC as a rookie. I would bet that most all rookie OCs who enter the league would like very much to have a record as well as Pep's.

He's a troll, don't even try

[dudeski]

I had no argumentative comments. This point counter point is a debate that I feel that some are way too early in writing Pep off as a bad coordinator. I fully understand your earlier points but like I said and believe, he will improve. His in game adjustments when the game was on the line at times were very good. The key is the trenches and that is where the Colts struggled. My only disagreement is saying the Colts problems were all Peps faults. In my opinion he was trying to avoid falling into the same mode as in the past with Manning having to carry the whole load. Quite a few games last season we're played against some pretty good defenses and game planning not always work especially when the Colts are missing some key pieces.

pep did do some things well. As a whole, I don't think he was good enough. And at times he was awful.

Making a gameplan your players aren't good enough to execute is a horrible job. His playcalls at times were a joke.

We were best when we spread them out and went away from the smash mouth nonsense

[crazycolt1]

I felt we won many of those games due to abandoning the game plan and putting the ball in lucks hands to create out of chaos.  It looked like the offensive line was not up to the task for Peps game plan.  My beef with pep's play calling was it looked like he was shoving a game plan down the teams throat even though the personnel we had did not fit the scheme.   I also couldn't stand Arians either so maybe I'm just a negative person who shouldn't voice my opinion, but I thought I may as well.

You should never feel like you shouldn't voice your opinion. We all have different ones with enough up and downsides for all. 

[twfish]

He's a troll, don't even try

Atleast hes finally trolling with multiple sentences now

[NewColtsFan]

no. A debate does not require an open mind. That just isn't factual.

Pep was bad the majority of the time last year. That is a fact. The games prove it to be so.

 

Here are some facts for you to consider:

 

Fact:  Hamilton went almost the entire season without Bradshaw and Ballard, and we all know how little TRich contributed.

 

Fact:  Hamilton went more than half a season without Reggie Wayne and almost the entire season without Dwayne Allen so Hamilton couldn't use the two TE offense that he likes at all.

 

Fact:  Hamilton went almost the entire season without Donald Thomas.

 

Fact:  Hamilton went the entire season forced to play Satele and McGlynn.

 

Fact:  Hamilton got nothing out of Holmes and typical poor rookie play from Thornton.

 

Fact:  Hamilton went roughly half a season using Whalen for considerable meaningful snaps.   Whalen is the guy you just said in the last few days that we should cut him this year because there's no need for the Colts to keep a 6th WR.

 

All of these are Facts.    And the fact that you to choose to ignore them and not take them into consideration when evaluating Hamilton's performance means the Colts fan living in a bubble (as you put it) is you -- Dudeski -- and not the rest of the Colts fans.

 

Was Hamilton great last year?    No.   We all know that.

 

But was he terrible last year?     No.   Most of us know that.

 

Hamilton gets at least another year to figure this out.    Maybe more depending on how he does.

 

One last thought......    In my view (opinion)  Pagano and Grigson likely agree with me.   Otherwise, Pep would've been fired.   They had Rob Chudzinski right there ready to be hired as the OC and they didn't.   Made him special assistant to the HC.    It's not like Grigson/Pagano are reluctant to fire a coach.  They fired the Special Teams coach after the 2012 season.   One year and the guy was fired.   So, they'll pull the trigger when they think they need to.    And they didn't with Pep.   I think that should tell you something.   That Pep wasn't as bad as you think.

[dudeski]

Here are some facts for you to consider:

Fact: Hamilton went almost the entire season without Bradshaw and Ballard, and we all know how little TRich contributed.

Fact: Hamilton went more than half a season without Reggie Wayne and almost the entire season without Dwayne Allen so Hamilton couldn't use the two TE offense that he likes at all.

Fact: Hamilton went almost the entire season without Donald Thomas.

Fact: Hamilton went the entire season forced to play Satele and McGlynn.

Fact: Hamilton got nothing out of Holmes and typical poor rookie play from Thornton.

Fact: Hamilton went roughly half a season using Whalen for considerable meaningful snaps. Whalen is the guy you just said in the last few days that we should cut him this year because there's no need for the Colts to keep a 6th WR.

All of these are Facts. And the fact that you to choose to ignore them and not take them into consideration when evaluating Hamilton's performance means the Colts fan living in a bubble (as you put it) is you -- Dudeski -- and not the rest of the Colts fans.

Was Hamilton great last year? No. We all know that.

But was he terrible last year? No. Most of us know that.

Hamilton gets at least another year to figure this out. Maybe more depending on how he does.

One last thought...... In my view (opinion) Pagano and Grigson likely agree with me. Otherwise, Pep would've been fired. They had Rob Chudzinski right there ready to be hired as the OC and they didn't. Made him special assistant to the HC. It's not like Grigson/Pagano are reluctant to fire a coach. They fired the Special Teams coach after the 2012 season. One year and the guy was fired. So, they'll pull the trigger when they think they need to. And they didn't with Pep. I think that should tell you something. That Pep wasn't as bad as you think.

most of these "facts" don't excuse his bad game planning. In fact they highlight it