Manning's legacy is a done deal now - Greatest only in regular season

[chad72]

I think as you said he still needed to do more.

 

3 of the above cases, he never got to do more in regulation at least (2008, 2010, 2012).

 

In 2 of the above cases, 2008 & 2010, he never got the ball back at all, period, and the game was already lost. Yesterday, the infamously discussed knee was taken with 31 seconds and 2 timeouts.

 

It is not homerism if what you are saying is true. It is fanaticism if you exempt Peyton from blame. But it is not if you present the facts objectively.

[GoPats]

If you are a pats fan, why are you here?

 

Even if he was, I'm pretty sure that we're allowed to be. Maybe you can create your own forum and have a "no Pats fans" rule if that's what you want. I've been hanging around Indy boards since around 2004, and one of the moderators here is a NE fan. It's possible to coexist peacefully and have productive, entertaining discussions with dissenting opinions.

[Gavin]

Say what you want about the AFC East, the Jets are always a top defense.

They were a top 5 defense this year, and this year they were also a butt fumble team.

 

And they were STILL a top 5 defense despite it.

 

The AFC East may not be the NFC North but it's not the Jaguars and the Titans and the 2000 Texans.

More over, your point is mute because the post-season success is there.

 

It isn't like Brady is pillaging the AFC East then going one and done a record 8 times like Peyton Manning

Are you forgetting about those darn good defenses you had in the early 2000's, Teddy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Ted Washington, Richard Seymour, Rodney Harrison, Willie Mcginest oh and did I mention the single biggest pain in the *** Peyton has ever had to deal with in Ty Law who if I remember right has 11-12 career picks off of Manning, Taking nothing away from Brady, what he has done stands on its own and he is in fact better come Post Season then Peyton was and probably ever will be but just recently the last couple years has Brady had to contend with his own defense to win games, Manning has made a career out of it, Patriots have had a more complete team then Manning ever did up till now, case in point, Manning is out all last year most people that werent blind homers new we were as good as toast from the opening kickoff of game 1 on through the rest of the season, But when Brady went down you guys still found ways to win games, At the end of the day your right its about championships but teams win championships not individual players alone, someone else has to make plays at some point whether it be a big play or a small one, you guys had all kinds of playmakers through the years on defense, Most we had was two pass rushers and injury prone Safety and two DT's for a year that were broken down

[jvan1973]

I've never been to any other teams forum. Doesn't make much sense to me.

[tonychen]

3 of the above cases, he never got to do more in regulation at least (2008, 2010, 2012).

 

In 2 of the above cases, 2008 & 2010, he never got the ball back at all, period, and the game was already lost. Yesterday, the infamously discussed knee was taken with 31 seconds and 2 timeouts.

 

It is not homerism if what you are saying is true. It is fanaticism if you exempt Peyton from blame. But it is not if you present the facts objectively.

Maybe I was overreacting since I rooted for Manning for such a long time and always trying to find reasons for his failures and indeed hated to see him blow perhaps the best and last chance to win the second SB in his career. But even if this was overreacting it's still more objective than some blinded fans who are still trying to find excuses for their hero who cannot do anything wrong.

[OldManP]

OK I never want to deny his elite and revolutionary level, but he only holds a 9-11 playoff record. He just blew another chance and it could be his best chance ever. Every yr going to the playoff he has a speech prepared for disappointment. Too many one-and-dones even to inferior teams.

 

After watching Brady blowing the Texans out, I for the 1st time in 10 yrs admit he is worse than Brady.

I think calling him "worse than Brady" might be harsh.  It implies that Brady stinks, and Manning is even worse. 

 

Maybe you meant "Brady is better than Manning"?

[GoPats]

I've never been to any other teams forum. Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

 

That's crazy, I'm sure you'd be VERY popular over on Patriots Planet.

 

[tonychen]

Even if he was, I'm pretty sure that we're allowed to be. Maybe you can create your own forum and have a "no Pats fans" rule if that's what you want. I've been hanging around Indy boards since around 2004, and one of the moderators here is a NE fan. It's possible to coexist peacefully and have productive, entertaining discussions with dissenting opinions.

I agree with your opinion but trust me I am not a pats fan and I still want to see ravens beat you guys this coming Sunday. you guys owe them for last yrs missed chipshot FG.

[braveheartcolt]

Peyton Manning has a career post season passer rating of 88.3.

 

Tom Brady has a career post season passer rating of 86.0.

 

Discuss.

 

OK....

 

2012 Passer Ratings:

 

Blaine Gabbert - 77.4

Andrew Luck - 76.5

 

I'm gutted we don't have Gabbert.

[jvan1973]

I think calling him "worse than Brady" might be harsh. It implies that Brady stinks, and Manning is even worse.

Maybe you meant "Brady is better than Manning"?

So in your opinion Jonny U was the only good qb to ever be a colt.. You must have hated bert Jones really bad

[braveheartcolt]

Even if he was, I'm pretty sure that we're allowed to be. Maybe you can create your own forum and have a "no Pats fans" rule if that's what you want. I've been hanging around Indy boards since around 2004, and one of the moderators here is a NE fan. It's possible to coexist peacefully and have productive, entertaining discussions with dissenting opinions.

 

There you go again, being all 'clever'.....

[The Fish]

OK....

 

2012 Passer Ratings:

 

Blaine Gabbert - 77.4

Andrew Luck - 76.5

 

I'm gutted we don't have Gabbert.

I don't ever want to see that stat again!

[GoPats]

I agree with your opinion but trust me I am not a pats fan and I still want to see ravens beat you guys this coming Sunday. you guys owe them for last yrs missed chipshot FG.

 

Oh I know you're not a Pats fan. Never thought otherwise, because I've actually read your posts in this thread, which would have helped other posters figure that out.

 

I just take exception when someone questions our presence here on the old forum, that's all. I find it more interesting to be interloper.  ;) 

[GoPats]

There you go again, being all 'clever'.....

 

I'm all kinds of trouble... you know that, Wallace. Just a matter of time until the mods see that someone's been through the garbage and left the seat up on the loo.

[OldManP]

So in your opinion Jonny U was the only good qb to ever be a colt.. You must have hated bert Jones really bad

You should take a remedial reading course.  Seriously.

[jvan1973]

You should take a remedial reading course. Seriously.

Did you hate Bert Jones? Just curious

[braveheartcolt]

Right, we are getting nowhere on this Brady / Manning debate, so I have an idea that would settle it once and for all.

 

Get them together for a GOAT Face-Off. Best of three. I'm thinking Ker Plunk, Operation and Buckeroo. Winner takes all and then we close this thread? Anyone got a better idea?

[Fx Stryker]

Say what you want about the AFC East, the Jets are always a top defense.

They were a top 5 defense this year, and this year they were also a butt fumble team.

 

And they were STILL a top 5 defense despite it.

 

The AFC East may not be the NFC North but it's not the Jaguars and the Titans and the 2000 Texans.

More over, your point is mute because the post-season success is there.

 

It isn't like Brady is pillaging the AFC East then going one and done a record 8 times like Peyton Manning

 

 

I'm not jumping in this, but don't claim the ACFE to be better than the AFCS

 

AFCE: '02-'10 without the Pats: 195-237

AFCS: '02-'10 without the Colts: 203-229

[tonychen]

Right, we are getting nowhere on this Brady / Manning debate, so I have an idea that would settle it once and for all.

 

Get them together for a GOAT Face-Off. Best of three. I'm thinking Ker Plunk, Operation and Buckeroo. Winner takes all and then we close this thread? Anyone got a better idea?

To figure out who is the all time great could be impossible since the game has always been changing, but the head-to-head record could provide some direct comparison. I thought Manning had catch up at certain point but the latest two meetings all went to Brady.

[Tsarquise]

I am pretty sure in all his 1-and-dones in the past 6 yrs his team was favored. The closest might be the 08 OT loss to Chargers.

No the colts were favored to win that too.

[Dustin]

post season QB rating

1 Aaron Rodgers 105.4

2 Bart Starr 104.8

3 Drew Brees 103.9

4 Kurt Warner 102.8

5 Joe Montana 95.6

6 Mark Sanchez 94.3

7 Ken Anderson 93.5

8 Joe Theismann 91.4

9 Eli Manning 89.3

10 Peyton Manning 88.4

11 Troy Aikman 88.3

12 Tom Brady 87.8

13 Brett Favre 86.3

14 Steve Young 85.8

15 Warren Moon 84.9

So you mean Mark Sanchez is the 6th best QB?

 

No he's the 6th best playoff QB ever.

[Dustin]

OK....

 

2012 Passer Ratings:

 

Blaine Gabbert - 77.4

Andrew Luck - 76.5

 

I'm gutted we don't have Gabbert.

 

I was using my comparison to show how people are wrong when they say that Brady puts up better post season stats. Plus, yours isn't even a valid comparison because Gabbert only played 10 games. 

[Mameluc]

Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB of all time.

 

and dan marino the worst

 

trent dilffer is actually pretty good right? ;)

[Dustin]

and dan marino the worst

 

trent dilffer is actually pretty good right? ;)

 

Brad Johnson as well. If he isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer then I will be extremely surprised.

[tonychen]

That ESPN total QBR system actually works not bad:

2012 post season
RK PLAYER TEAM COMP ATT PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G
1 Joe Flacco, QB BAL 30 57 52.6 613 10.75 70 5 0 2 120.0 307
2 Tom Brady, QB NE 25 40 62.5 344 8.60 47 3 0 1 115.0 344
3 Russell Wilson, QB SEA 39 62 62.9 572 9.23 34 3 1 7 102.4 286
4 Aaron Rodgers, QB GB 49 72 68.1 531 7.38 44 3 1 4 97.6 266
5 Matt Ryan, QB ATL 24 35 68.6 250 7.14 47 3 2 0 93.8 250
6 Colin Kaepernick, QB SF 17 31 54.8 263 8.48 45 2 1 1 91.2 263
7 Peyton Manning, QB DEN 28 43 65.1 290 6.74 32 3 2 3 88.3 290
8 Matt Schaub, QB HOU 63 89 70.8 605 6.80 28 2 2 1 87.5 303
9 Robert Griffin III, QB WSH 10 19 52.6 84 4.42 30 2 1 2 77.5 84
10 Andrew Luck, QB IND 28 54 51.9 288 5.33 25 0 1 3 59.8 288

[jvan1973]

You should take a remedial reading course. Seriously.

Way to get out of answering the question.. you have zero credibility to most everyone here, it isn't surprising

[Dustin]

That ESPN total QBR system actually works not bad:

2012 post season

RK PLAYER TEAM COMP ATT PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G

1 Joe Flacco, QB BAL 30 57 52.6 613 10.75 70 5 0 2 120.0 307

2 Tom Brady, QB NE 25 40 62.5 344 8.60 47 3 0 1 115.0 344

3 Russell Wilson, QB SEA 39 62 62.9 572 9.23 34 3 1 7 102.4 286

4 Aaron Rodgers, QB GB 49 72 68.1 531 7.38 44 3 1 4 97.6 266

5 Matt Ryan, QB ATL 24 35 68.6 250 7.14 47 3 2 0 93.8 250

6 Colin Kaepernick, QB SF 17 31 54.8 263 8.48 45 2 1 1 91.2 263

7 Peyton Manning, QB DEN 28 43 65.1 290 6.74 32 3 2 3 88.3 290

8 Matt Schaub, QB HOU 63 89 70.8 605 6.80 28 2 2 1 87.5 303

9 Robert Griffin III, QB WSH 10 19 52.6 84 4.42 30 2 1 2 77.5 84

10 Andrew Luck, QB IND 28 54 51.9 288 5.33 25 0 1 3 59.8 288

 

 

lol......QBR.

[jvan1973]

Brad Johnson as well. If he isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer then I will be extremely surprised.

Jim plunkett has two rings.. His bust should be going in the hall any day now

[tonychen]

Jim plunkett has two rings.. His bust should be going in the hall any day now

 

You guys can have fun as much as you want, but talking about post season success Manning is very average and this is just a fact.

[hawkeyes]

Wins and losses are a team effort.

 

Bingo we have a winner!

[JoKeR]

I hate the title of this thread. Really, is it a done deal? It's like when some talking head states his opinion as fact.

[tonychen]

I hate the title of this thread. Really, is it a done deal? It's like when some talking head states his opinion as fact.

 

I really hope it's not and he wins two more superbowl, but there are just not that many good opportunities like he just wasted this yr. No1 seed achieved in the last week, playing a team they just steamrolled, no major injuries for the team, SB at hometown, looked like everything aligned.

[Fx Stryker]

I really hope it's not and he wins two more superbowl, but there are just not that many good opportunities like he just wasted this yr. No1 seed achieved in the last week, playing a team they just steamrolled, no major injuries for the team, SB at hometown, looked like everything aligned.

 

Remember before this season everyone thought Denver's year was next year.

[southwest1]

I'm sorry, but this isn't a discussion anymore.

At least it shouldn't be.

Tom Brady passed Joe Montana today and now holds the record alone for most post season wins (17) and he has done it against serious defenses, 00's Steelers, Ravens, Jets, etc.

Peyton Manning, on the same weekend, set the record for most post season losses.

Brady has 40 touchdown passes and 20 interceptions compared to Peyton's 29 touchdowns and 21 interceptions (iirc).

This despite Tom being in the league three fewer years than Peyton, and having one less play off appearance.

Brady has 10 playoff appearances and five Superbowl appearances.

He is the most miraculous, flukey helmet catch away from a 19-0 championship season.

It's just off the chain.

Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were equals and rivals a long, long time ago.

Tom Brady has since sealed that deal and by no small margin.

A 17-6 post season record, with 5 AFC Championships, is in a league of its own.

Brady only gets compared to Montana now.

Brady vrs Peyton is 6 years dated and long, long settled.

The regular season doesn't mean anything. AFC South (expansion division in the 00's, utterly horrible) and this years AFC West are divisions Mark Sanchez could go to the post season in (not saying Peyton is Sanchez). Those stats don't matter, because, like with the Ravens looking at Denver's "#2 defense", good teams don't care what you've done to bad teams, or the stats you've accomulated against them.

I actually agree with Tonychen.

Manning had the game in his hands. All Manning had to do was drive his team in field goal position. But he did the worse thing he could have done. He turned the ball over.

He even could have gone three and out and it would have been better.

There really is no argument for Manning being better than Brady now.

I guess I have trouble with absolutes. QB Brady has all the rings & stats & QB Manning stumbles under pressure. I also have trouble when other bloggers who support other teams are not made to feel welcome here. Has Brady accumulated more rings? Yes. Does he deserve credit for that? Yes. Does that mean Manning will never win another ring? No. I believe that while it is true that this is a team sport at the end of the day each field general in the NFL will be called upon to make crucial decisions that determine the outcome of crucial Playoff games. Good decisions here or poor decisions ascertain a team's collective fate & a QB's clutch gene. Peyton Manning is intensively competitive & he does have a strong desire to win. No doubt about that. But, Playoff football is all about 2 things: 1. The mistakes you don't make & 2. Putting your adversary down & out when the situation demands it. It's not about coaching, it's not about defense, it's about the ability to bring your enemy to their knees & slam the door shut. Peyton, to be kind, failed to do either 1 of those things on Saturday. Peyton is competitive, but does he have the crush your enemy gene? That remains to be seen.

Yes, this may be a Colts forum, but all team viewpoints are welcome here. I applaud insight from all bloggers, especially those who are not in the Colts primary fan arena. They have a fresh set of eyes & Gopats ideas or anyone else's are always encouraged & sought after by me. Thank you.

[JoKeR]

I wonder what Brady would've become without Belichek? It's really hard to say but without a doubt, BB helped make Brady one of the best of All-time. Manning on the other hand, IMO, would've became what he is today in all most any circumstance.

No shame in Belichek helping Brady become what he's is, IMO both men should be forever linked in history, it makes them special.

[GrizzColt]

I wonder what Brady would've become without Belichek? It's really hard to say but without a doubt, BB helped make Brady one of the best of All-time. Manning on the other hand, IMO, would've became what he is today in all most any circumstance.

No shame in Belichek helping Brady become what he's is, IMO both men should be forever linked in history, it makes them special.

 

That's my point.  I could see Belichek taking somebody like Russel Wilson and winning with him.  Like Brady, he is patient and plays within himself.  Heck, he's a whole lot of other short guys famous....Woodhead, Welker, etc...  

[jjcolts]

Even if he was, I'm pretty sure that we're allowed to be. Maybe you can create your own forum and have a "no Pats fans" rule if that's what you want. I've been hanging around Indy boards since around 2004, and one of the moderators here is a NE fan. It's possible to coexist peacefully and have productive, entertaining discussions with dissenting opinions.

Maybe I should clarify; I don't care if Pats fans are here. I have been in this forum since 2005 as it has converted numerous times, and I would miss all of you 5 or so regular Pats fans...really. Often times, I have seen you all have brought objectivity to us when we have had "melt downs", imagine that, Pats fans telling Colts fans, keep your head up at times.

 

He wants this forum to say ole, Brady is better than Manning /end thread, end debate.

If that is the company he wants to be around, this is not the place to be, it be better be suited in a Pats forum. I am sure, he won't get any arguments there?  Correct.

 

It is like the RG3 fans in the off season, claiming RG3 better than luck...what are we suppose to say??

[GrizzColt]

The problem with a lot of fans today, is they are Stats fanatics.  Stats just don't work well with football, try as you may.  Go watch baseball if you want to hunker over a calculator.  The best way to evaluate quarterbacks is the eye test.  Every year during the combine and the draft, you get all the measurements and we get all excited and guys like Blaine Gabbert end up getting drafted early while Russell Wilson goes in the 3rd round.  Well, if anyone had watched tape, they would have seen the difference.  All Wilson did was win about every game he played in.  He is just short.  The eyeball test can differentiate between Dan Marino who never won a Super Bowl and Brad Johnson who did.  I'm sure Trent Dilfer has fewer interceptions than Manning, but he isn't even close to being as good.  He'll tell you that.  

[tfunky14]

Since Manning won his last and only Super Bowl, he is 2-5 in playoffs, including 4 one-and-dones and a Super Bowl loss. In 09's run he did not play very well either - Thanks to Garcon's effort he avoided a pick-6 in the Raven's game. In the Jets game he was lucky to figure it out at half time. Both Pats and Chargers got eliminated.

 

After he won the Super Bowl everybody believed he finally took the monkey off his back, but every yr he proved people wrong.

 

Together with many fans, I used to say it's Colts fault for not supporting him enough. This time many blame the Denver defense for blowing the coverage. I thinks it was insane defensive play calling at the end of the regular time. But it could have stopped much earlier considering Holiday game them 14 points for free and the team never trailed. Manning had so many opportunities to get ahead with confortable lead, but he failed every time. His uner-throwing Thomas resulted in the failed FG before the end of 1st half and a Ravens TD. His 3 TOs turned into 17 pts with a FG ending the game. He never threw down field for a single time. He blew the three opportunities to drive into FG range in the OT. It just did not look elite. Manning did look old and tired.

 

Manning's offensive scheme works - only in the regular season. In playoffs against good teams, it does not work consistently. He is an offensive coordinator on the field, but he is not a very successful one in the playoff. The scheme is too simple and the adjustment is too slow. When facing playoff teams which have conplex game plans and are playing lightout, only having Manning's own plan is not enough. However, since no alternative options has been tried in the regular season, the coaches have no idea how to help him and they are caught off guard.

 

I still think the best choice for Manning - if his purpose was to win another Super Bowl -  was to join SF and simply play QB, not OC, in their scheme. I believe he understood it, but if not for being in the same conference as Eli, he insisted to his own scheme and always wanted to prove he can win big games on his own. Knowing Jim Harbaugh's strong personality, he selected to join a team that would allow him to do everything he wanted. They quickly gave up the tries to infuse their playbook with Manning's earlier in the season and gave him full control. They didn't even try to add anything new even when they were cruising late in the season. Manning demanded prefect execution, but when the opponents kinda figure it out or he is not 100% he is also confused and helpless.

 

Sorry Mr. Manning, your play-calling doesn't work in big games. You were out-coached by Belichick and out-played by Brady before, same by Sean Payton and Brees, and now the dummy Jim Caldwell and Flacco. Football is an ultimate team game and it takes more than one arrogant QB to win in big games nowadays. The young QBs are growing up and teams are evolving. Time for you to find some help if you still want another ring. The window is about to close, better hurry up.

really, not good at all

[21isSuperman]

Harbaugh surely wants his own scheme and it works. If Manning is really that great, do you think he wouldn't adopt to it or sit together with him and make sth. even better? For me Manning's scheme demands too many things to work on the same page and it could be too vulnerable and predictable to good defense.

 

I don't think he is obligated to change.  He is allowed to be in whatever scheme he wants.  If a team says they will run your scheme and another team says they won't, and knowing your scheme has had a lot of success, there are many people who will gladly go where they can keep doing what they are used to.