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Greenoughrunner

Luck vs rg3

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I'm not a Redskins fan but thanks anyway Gavin lol. If they keep performing well they may very well clinch the East. This was my preseason prediction anyway, so if it happens, I'm brilliant. :)

Lol the way the East is playing its a crap shoot and no major achievement IMO
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Lol the way the East is playing its a crap shoot and no major achievement IMO

I agree, People say the NFC east is such a tough division, but this yr. it is a joke.

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Lol the way the East is playing its a crap shoot and no major achievement IMO

Hahaha yeah, but who would've known that the Redskins of all teams would be in the mix. A lot of pundits thought the Eagles were SB bound this year, while some thought the Giants would be near unstoppable in their hunt for the title. Of course Dallas is always hyped up...bleh. Lol I had faith in the boys in burgundy though. It makes for good football, that's for sure!

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I love how QUIZBOY always jumps into the arguments and supports anything that is against the colts. Now he's an expert on the Skins. LOL!!!

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I would say that there indeed has been a little luck going on here. Dominant run game? No. Inept defenses and sub-par opponents, some of whom who refuse to make adjustments and are well known for being awful? One of the best wide receivers in the NFL? An offensive line that makes just enough room for positive bursts on the ground? Last year you had Painter at quarterback. Of course the season didn't go as expected. You must not know me because I give credit regardless of opponent. 12 is good but he is not the god that so many here make him out to be. Manning would be just fine this year because had he stayed, I am sure that he would have had some say so as to who his offensive coordinator was going to be. No doubt about that.

Gotcha. So we win because we get "Lucky" and the other teams are awful. Nobody has said he is god that i know of. I guess we are not allowed to like our QB on this Colts forum though?

Had Manning stayed, he would have been playing on a team missing several key guys including possibly Reggie Wayne and Freeney.

But thats not the point anyway. The point is that Manning would have some problems running this style of offense behind this current O line. Luck's ability to move and bounce off defenders and throw with them hanging all over him is a big reason he has been so successful. Getting rid of the ball fast is not the way Arian's likes to play. I think it would be beneficial to play more that way given this O line, but it's just not going to happen.

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Lol the way the East is playing its a crap shoot and no major achievement IMO

Its still a big accomplishment to win the East. i know people look at records and say they are week. Plain and simple though the division just beats the crap out of each other scewing the records. Take a look at what teams like the Giants do outside the division they beat the heck out of 2 teams people think are 2 of the best teams in football (Packers, 49ers) Even Philly before the injuries and coaching staff falling apart beat Baltimore. Theres a reason the East gets respect and that reason is 12 superbowl titles. I was hearing the same thing at the end of last season that the NFC east sucks and is overrated a few weeks later the Giants were holding up the Lombardi.

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Yes total TDs is only 1 difference, but Luck has 25 turnovers to 6 for RG3 .... thats a MAJOR difference that clearly must not be over looked when determining who is having the better season as a player.

Like I said - I am still glad we have Luck .... RG3 will end up like the hello kitty newton - I have no doubt!

16 Interceptions 5 fumbles lost thats 21 turnovers and when your hit several times a game because he is playing WITHOUT an O Line and you have an incompetent O Coordinator(yes thats right Arians has shown complete incompetence at times, many in fact) who does not know how to use his QB's strengths to his advantage then your going to turn the ball over some, No excuses just facts

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I'm not a Redskins fan but thanks anyway Gavin lol. If they keep performing well they may very well clinch the East. This was my preseason prediction anyway, so if it happens, I'm brilliant. :)

oops forgot who I was talkin to fan wise, got caught up in the debate, maybe this one I should watch from the sidelines lol :goodluck::funny:
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Havent read all of this Luck vs. RGIII thread, and I am quite aware of the reasoning behind the comparisons and the media hyped rivalry, but the way I see it Colts got the right guy for their franchise, and the Redskins got the right guy for their franchise. Not sure what else really needs to be said...

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Gotcha. So we win because we get "Lucky" and the other teams are awful. Nobody has said he is god that i know of. I guess we are not allowed to like our QB on this Colts forum though?

Had Manning stayed, he would have been playing on a team missing several key guys including possibly Reggie Wayne and Freeney.

But thats not the point anyway. The point is that Manning would have some problems running this style of offense behind this current O line. Luck's ability to move and bounce off defenders and throw with them hanging all over him is a big reason he has been so successful. Getting rid of the ball fast is not the way Arian's likes to play. I think it would be beneficial to play more that way given this O line, but it's just not going to happen.

I'm sure that there are more than a fair share of Colts fans who chose losses in a few of those games that you guys won. Who knows their team better than their own fanbase, right? And of course you can like 12...love him, no doubt. But when Schaub throws four interceptions, you best believe that there are going to be threads, not unlike this one, with several points of view and accusations of how he needs to settle down in the pocket. There will be a few who will coddle him and blame it on receivers or mistimed routes but there will be retribution on the forum, whether we win the game or not. Granted we have had Schaub several years now and the fans are still excited about and getting to know 12 but still...it's nauseating to read, and I'm not the only one who thinks so.

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Its still a big accomplishment to win the East. i know people look at records and say they are week. Plain and simple though the division just beats the crap out of each other scewing the records. Take a look at what teams like the Giants do outside the division they beat the heck out of 2 teams people think are 2 of the best teams in football (Packers, 49ers) Even Philly before the injuries and coaching staff falling apart beat Baltimore. Theres a reason the East gets respect and that reason is 12 superbowl titles. I was hearing the same thing at the end of last season that the NFC east sucks and is overrated a few weeks later the Giants were holding up the Lombardi.

All tough i see where your coming from,wont happen this time unless the Giants get hot

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Washington Post. Lavar Arrington and Ron Jaworski calling out Griffin to quit running and start throwing or he won't make it. That is our point in this thread:

http://www.washingto...g-quarterbacks/

Lavar Arrington has changed his stance after the last 3 games. I listen to his radio show everyday.

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Statistical Comparison

I will attempt to compare Andrew Luck and RGIII based purely on their stats and the implications of their stats. For those who will say “the only stat that I care about is 8-4” that’s fine and all, it’s just that this post isn’t intended for you.

All information is based on stats as of December 4, 2012.

Their basic stat lines read as:

Andrew Luck- 279 of 503 Attempts 55.5% Completion 17TDs 16INTs 3596 Yards 76.1 Rating

Robert Griffen III 218 of 325 Attempts 67.1% Completion 17TDs 4 INTs 2660 Yards 104.4 Rating

Comparison on downs

RG3

1st Down 89 of 131 1301 Yards 67.9% Completion

2nd Down 71 of 102 792 Yards 69.6% Completion

3rd Down 52 of 85 520 Yards 61.2% Completion

4th Down 6 of 7 47 Yards 85.7% Completion

Luck

1st Down 114 of 208 1520 Yards 54.8% Completion

2nd Down 90 of 158 964 Yards 57.0% Completion

3rd Down 72 of 134 1059 Yards 53.7% Completion

4th Down 3 of 3 53 Yards 100.0% Completion

Third down conversion is another statistic of importance.

RG3 38% 3rd Down Conversion Percentage

Luck 46% 3rd Down Conversion Percentage (Among the highest in the league)

RG3 is best on 3rd Down and 0-2 Yards to go 6 of 7 85.7% completion % 140.8 QB Rating.

Luck in similar situation : 8 of 17 47.1% Completion % 62.4 QB Rating

Luck is best on 3rd Down and 11+ Yards to go 18 of 30 60.0% completion % 106.4 QB Rating

RG3 in similar situation: 13 of 23 56.5% Completion % 64.8% QB Rating

Passes Thrown

RG3

Behind the LOS 58 of 74 316 Yards 78.4% Completion

1-10 yards 95 of 145 862 Yards 65.5% Completion

11-20 Yards 41 of 58 874 Yards 70.7% Completion

21-30 Yards 7 of 13 199 Yards 53.8% Completion

31-40 Yards 0 of 3 0 Yards 0. 0% Completion

41+ Yards 4 of 11 246 Yards 36.4% Completion

67% Of RG3’s passes are within 10 yards of the LOS. RG3 has a higher completion percentage with throws 41+ yards. RG3 is more accurate at all levels of throws with the exception of passes 31-40 yards.

Luck

Behind the LOS 44 of 67 254 Yards 65.7% Completion

1-10 Yards 125 of 202 1205Yards 61.9% Completion

11-20 Yards 68 of 121 1153Yards 56.2% Completion

21-30 Yards 15 of 38 468 Yards 39.5% Completion

31-40 Yards 2 of 12 77 Yards 16.7% Completion

41+ Yards 1 of 9 18 Yards 11.1% Completion

53% of Luck’s passes are within 10 Yards of the LOS. Luck gains most of his passing yards between 1-20 yards from the LOS.

After a statistical review, it's evident that statistically, RG3 has had the better year. I am aware that statistics do not tell the entire story and that there are numerous other situations and intangibles to consider such as offensive systems, offensive line, defense, opponenets faced, wins, team pass attempts vs run attemps. Some of those things cannot be weighed evenly and calculated, so we're just left with statistics.

If I can infer some things from the stats, it's that RG3 is in a very precise offense and his accuracy is a great benefit to the system, while also benefiting from the system. Conversely, Luck is in a system that does ask him to throw the ball down the field more and therefore explains the amount of yards gained passing, and may also explain the high interception rate, as he is throwing into the heart of the defense more regularly. What is evident however, is that at most levels of throws down the field, RG3 does have a higher completion percentage. Although us Colts fans may argue for reasons why, we have to admit that we would love for Luck to be more accurate and throw less interceptions. An interesting note: The Redskins offense is very innovative and suits RG3 very well. As mentioned earlier, it's very precise offense, but when things do not work out and the team is faced with third and long, RG3 has a low conversion rate. This would lead me to think that his strength are throwing precise short routes, and more accurate very deep routes. The numbers seem to indicate that in passing downs, when asked to drop back and read a defense and make a throw 11+ yards, he has had his difficulties. Meanwhile, Luck has had his difficulties connecting on long passes of 41+ yards.

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Russell Wilson, Colin Kap, RG3, Cam Newton and Andrew Luck can all flat out run the ball. They can and are winning games by running. Luck runs the least and throws the most. He and Cam Newton are taking their lumps now, while these other guys will take their's next year. Only a fool believes a QB in the NFL can continue to run and not get hurt. Even Big Ben gets hurt and he is as big and tough a QB as there is.

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Lavar Arrington has changed his stance after the last 3 games. I listen to his radio show everyday.

Jaworski hasn't.

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So are you saying that the offense that Luck is running is not higher risk than the one Griffin is running? Sure, Brady and Manning throw a lot of short passes, but I think the difference is when they do it it is generally a check down to one of their final targets whereas Griffin's are normally designed passes for screens or slants. I don't think anyone is going to deny Griffin throws a good deep ball, and the fact he is constantly using play action also contributes to the TD passes over 20+ yards figure. But I don't think it can be denied that Luck is playing in a much riskier offense and is being asked to do much more than Griffin is as far as intermediate and long throws, as well as for his team's offense in general.

And as far as making reads, if your first read is wide open, then of course throw it to him. Especially if it is Garcon who has nobody within 10 yards of him (which has happened more than once in both Skins games I have watched this season and has resulted in big YAC). However, Griffin rarely needs to make a second read, and I think that is why people call it a "safe" offense or "dink and dunk" along with the fact they are generally short passes. When it is working it looks nice, and I think the Skins coaching just be given props for it. But you have to think that soon it will be figured out and Griffin isn't going to have wide open receivers to throwing to. And no, I am not saying he never makes a throw under pressure or doesn't fit it into a window, but it is much, MUCH less frequent than the frequency Luck must do so.

It's not as much as the risk, because risk always comes with throwing the ball 40+ times a game, but we have to see where the reward is. He throws the ball more than any rookie quarterback but is not leading in the touchdown column. That's all I was getting at.

Also, I'm not mad at him for passing to the open man. If Andrew Luck's first read was that open, I doubt he would go through progressions. The Redskin's offense (as seen Monday night) creates confusion that either opens up running lanes or have receivers open.

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Statistical Comparison

I will attempt to compare Andrew Luck and RGIII based purely on their stats and the implications of their stats. For those who will say “the only stat that I care about is 8-4” that’s fine and all, it’s just that this post isn’t intended for you.

All information is based on stats as of December 4, 2012.

Their basic stat lines read as:

Andrew Luck- 279 of 503 Attempts 55.5% Completion 17TDs 16INTs 3596 Yards 76.1 Rating

Robert Griffen III 218 of 325 Attempts 67.1% Completion 17TDs 4 INTs 2660 Yards 104.4 Rating

Excellent post Flash, lots of data and nice thoughts on the matter . . . I would only add RGIII's contribution in the run game as yards added to the offense . . . typically when we deal with QBs, like Manning and Brady who niether run, the run contribution is minimal and not really considered in the overall contribution to the offense . . . but as RGIII has several rushing yards I factor that into the comparison for a few reasons . . . one it contributes to the overall offense, and two, there are times where he foregoes a pass (and thus have few passess and associated stats) and takes a run play which to him is a better option, and three, but rushing the ball there is less real estate to pass . . .

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Jaworski hasn't.

I know and to a point I agree he shouldn't take as many hits. What I disagree with and it's the main reason I defend RG3 to Colts fans is we run this offense and keep running it cause no one can stop it. And because RG3 is smart enough and talented enough to run any NFL offense and be affective. People need to realize he runs shanahans base offense he just does it out of the Pistol. I never heard anyone say Elway isn't smart because he runs Mike Shanahans simplistic offense. The steelers run plays from the pistol all the time with Big Ben. Do I wish they would slow down on designed runs yes because i dont want him taking unnecessary hits but I will say this when DE's bite its no less than a 20 yard gain.

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Okay, and this is where you lose me. A lot of people around here seem to believe that 12 can do no wrong, and when he does it's just "rookie mistakes". The Colts got rid of a lot of people from last year. This is not the same team. Plug in Schaub or Rivers or heck probably even Griffin and we would probably see the same results or better. The Colts are not winning solely because of 12...I don't know why so many seem to think that this is the case. I've even seen some say "Oh, Peyton would never survive behind this offensive line" when I think that is nonsense. He would get rid of the ball faster and have a lot less turnovers too, and who knows, the record could possibly be better than it is now. To say that he is doing things better than 3/4s of the rest of the league is extreme as well. He is good but he still makes mistakes, and I would not say that he is better than that many quarterbacks in this league. Not yet.

Completely agree with you.

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Statistical Comparison

I will attempt to compare Andrew Luck and RGIII based purely on their stats and the implications of their stats. For those who will say “the only stat that I care about is 8-4” that’s fine and all, it’s just that this post isn’t intended for you.

All information is based on stats as of December 4, 2012.

Their basic stat lines read as:

Andrew Luck- 279 of 503 Attempts 55.5% Completion 17TDs 16INTs 3596 Yards 76.1 Rating

Robert Griffen III 218 of 325 Attempts 67.1% Completion 17TDs 4 INTs 2660 Yards 104.4 Rating

Comparison on downs

RG3

1st Down 89 of 131 1301 Yards 67.9% Completion

2nd Down 71 of 102 792 Yards 69.6% Completion

3rd Down 52 of 85 520 Yards 61.2% Completion

4th Down 6 of 7 47 Yards 85.7% Completion

Luck

1st Down 114 of 208 1520 Yards 54.8% Completion

2nd Down 90 of 158 964 Yards 57.0% Completion

3rd Down 72 of 134 1059 Yards 53.7% Completion

4th Down 3 of 3 53 Yards 100.0% Completion

Third down conversion is another statistic of importance.

RG3 38% 3rd Down Conversion Percentage

Luck 46% 3rd Down Conversion Percentage (Among the highest in the league)

RG3 is best on 3rd Down and 0-2 Yards to go 6 of 7 85.7% completion % 140.8 QB Rating.

Luck in similar situation : 8 of 17 47.1% Completion % 62.4 QB Rating

Luck is best on 3rd Down and 11+ Yards to go 18 of 30 60.0% completion % 106.4 QB Rating

RG3 in similar situation: 13 of 23 56.5% Completion % 64.8% QB Rating

Passes Thrown

RG3

Behind the LOS 58 of 74 316 Yards 78.4% Completion

1-10 yards 95 of 145 862 Yards 65.5% Completion

11-20 Yards 41 of 58 874 Yards 70.7% Completion

21-30 Yards 7 of 13 199 Yards 53.8% Completion

31-40 Yards 0 of 3 0 Yards 0. 0% Completion

41+ Yards 4 of 11 246 Yards 36.4% Completion

67% Of RG3’s passes are within 10 yards of the LOS. RG3 has a higher completion percentage with throws 41+ yards. RG3 is more accurate at all levels of throws with the exception of passes 31-40 yards.

Luck

Behind the LOS 44 of 67 254 Yards 65.7% Completion

1-10 Yards 125 of 202 1205Yards 61.9% Completion

11-20 Yards 68 of 121 1153Yards 56.2% Completion

21-30 Yards 15 of 38 468 Yards 39.5% Completion

31-40 Yards 2 of 12 77 Yards 16.7% Completion

41+ Yards 1 of 9 18 Yards 11.1% Completion

53% of Luck’s passes are within 10 Yards of the LOS. Luck gains most of his passing yards between 1-20 yards from the LOS.

After a statistical review, it's evident that statistically, RG3 has had the better year. I am aware that statistics do not tell the entire story and that there are numerous other situations and intangibles to consider such as offensive systems, offensive line, defense, opponenets faced, wins, team pass attempts vs run attemps. Some of those things cannot be weighed evenly and calculated, so we're just left with statistics.

If I can infer some things from the stats, it's that RG3 is in a very precise offense and his accuracy is a great benefit to the system, while also benefiting from the system. Conversely, Luck is in a system that does ask him to throw the ball down the field more and therefore explains the amount of yards gained passing, and may also explain the high interception rate, as he is throwing into the heart of the defense more regularly. What is evident however, is that at most levels of throws down the field, RG3 does have a higher completion percentage. Although us Colts fans may argue for reasons why, we have to admit that we would love for Luck to be more accurate and throw less interceptions. An interesting note: The Redskins offense is very innovative and suits RG3 very well. As mentioned earlier, it's very precise offense, but when things do not work out and the team is faced with third and long, RG3 has a low conversion rate. This would lead me to think that his strength are throwing precise short routes, and more accurate very deep routes. The numbers seem to indicate that in passing downs, when asked to drop back and read a defense and make a throw 11+ yards, he has had his difficulties. Meanwhile, Luck has had his difficulties connecting on long passes of 41+ yards.

Good post man.

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It is better to have difference than general agreement all the time. How boring would that be? Myself and the Redskins fans are not the only ones who think this argument is ridiculous. I have seen Colts fans (Jason being one of them) who acknowledge that Griffin is indeed having the better season and there is no doubt about it. Numbers don't lie my friend. Griffin throws short passes? Cool. So does Brady, Manning, other elite quarterbacks as well. Griffin has beaten Newton's rushing record, but according to some, he wasn't going to last the whole season because of hits he took? He seems just fine to me. They run different offenses, yes, but Griffin runs his better. He doesn't have to put up 300 yard games and lead his team out of deep holes in order to win, and that's perfectly fine. At first the knock on Griffin was that he can put up numbers but winning is everything...because 12 was winning. Now that Griffin is winning too, what can people resort to? The numbers argument. Wins don't lie and stats don't either.

Woooaaahh now, you're getting way ahead of yourself and putting words into my mouth. I don't recall ever saying that RG3 is having the better year. I don't know why I would say that because I don't believe that. I do think that Luck is having the better year but not by as huge a margin as some people are making it out to be. Ultimately, I think that each team got the right QB for the type of offense they want to run, and to say that one could not run the other's offense is just silly because there's no way of proving that.

What I have been doing is try to stand up a little bit for RG3 and some (not all, but some) of the fans of his that post here because I think a lot of the criticisms towards him are unwarranted and inaccurate. I do still believe that some of the colts fans here try to run RG3 down to make themselves feel better about Luck but that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. My posts have, however, primarily been directed towards those people though.

I will also say that I do agree with many of the things Balzer says, such as that one cannot say that another QB would do better than Luck with this offense, and that Luck runs a higher risk offense whereas RG3's is a safer offense. My problem with him generally is in the tone of his comments, not always the actual content of his comments, though I do disagree with him there on some things as well, especially in regards to his feeling that the earlier Luck hype was not to the same level as the current RG3 hype...I completely disagree with that but can see why he would not see it that way.

But you keep posting in this thread and adding the fuel to the fire. Fans of teams can say whatever they would like about their team on their teams forum, whether right or wrong, or over the top. Im sure there are plenty of over the top ridiculous posts on the Skins forum and the Texans forum as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. That is what being a fan is all about, it only becomes a problem when other teams fans come to an opponents forum to start arguments.

Well see here is where I partly disagree. I agree that fans can say whatever they want, but when they go to over the top homerism and cutting down other players and/or teams just to lift theirs up, well that's what leads to the fans of other teams coming here. Some come merely to defend their player/team while others go just as over the top as some of the colts fans here do. One begats the other so to say one is ok but the other is not, where the first is the direct cause of the second, simply makes no sense to me. If this were a private forum with private registration and people were faking being Colts fans to get in then that might be one thing. However this is a public forum open to all of the public, whether fans of this team or any other. Heck just as an example, the Eagles forum has a couple of questions on the registration form that try to weed out spammers. One question asked what the nickname of their stadium is. Sure, that answer can easily be found with a simple google search but still, the point is they have taken at least a small step in trying to keep the forum for Eagles fans only. This forum is completely open to all. So to say that others aren't welcome to post their feelings here or that people here can make absurd and over the top comments but fans of other players/teams cannot is extremely hypocritical.

I guess if anything my "special agenda" has been to try to reign in some of the over the top, homeristic type posts and absurd criticisms of other players/teams. Why? Not to try to appear to be a bigger fan of the other players or teams because I'm not (except for Peyton but I've never been anything but honest about that). I have been doing it to try to keep the fans of other players/teams from having to come here in defense of their player/team. If people here stop ripping down other players or teams then, when other fans come here, we can have friendly and civil discussion instead of absurd fights back and forth such as this thread that result in absurd and inaccurate comments from both sides. Basically, I'm trying to get OUR fans to stop being the trolls that they're bringing in and to stop being hypocrites.

So many people keep saying they're tired of fans of other teams/players coming here, but more often than not it's the actions of those doing the complaining that's bringing the other fans here in the first place. If people want the fire to die down, then let's let it die down, and then (most importantly) don't start it again in the next thread/post you make. There's nothing wrong with defending your team or your favorite player, but when you do so by tearing down another player citing a specific example even though that same example applies to your own player then you simply come out sounding stupid. (the "you" in this sentence is a general "you" to the people that it applies to, not to you [balzer] who this portion of my post was in response to).

Also, since I only recently started paying much attention to the forum again, I honestly do not know of some of the threads/posts that were made that started the influx of Skins fans to come running to the defense of their QB, but IMO it doesn't really matter. Most of what has been said about Lucks more attempts and more difficult offense compared to RG3's offense and the fact that it's based on short easy throws is completely accurate. It don't mean that one is better than the other at this point, but to completely dismiss the facts because of some stats is illogical.

I agree, for the most part.

How exactly are they winning then? Dominant run game? Dominant defense? Dominant special teams. You are right this is not the same team as last year. We basically started over with rookies and first year Colts. This team talent wise is probably worse then last year in most areas.

Peyton Manning ran a timing offense. Bruce Arian's doesn't. When people say he wouldn't survive this year behind that line, they are correct.

And nobody here thinks 12 can do no wrong. We just think he's better then you want to give him credit for. But you are a fan of a division rival, so you are not going to agree with us regardless.

Yes, there are people here that think 12 can do no wrong. They may be a bit of the minority but they are here. Most of the fans here are reasonable, and some are overly critical, forgetting the fact that Luck is still just a rookie who is going to make mistakes and then others do go over the top in defending Luck. Also I completely disagree that Peyton wouldn't survive behind this OL. He survived behind the 2010 OL and it was just as bad. Yes he was running a different offense but honestly, if Peyton were still here, do you think he would be running a different type of offense than he ran in years past? No, he'd still be running the offense he was used to. If anything, Peyton still being here might mean that Arians wouldn't be. Or, Arians would have to adjust his offense to what Peyton is used to and comfortable with. Bruce can run the offense he does here because Luck is so mobile that he can buy time. I do still think that there should be more short routes and outlet receivers to give Luck someone to check down to more often, but the point is that Arians wouldn't be running THIS offense if Peyton were here. Essentially, Peyton would still be running the offense that he wants to run and Irsay would make sure of that. So Peyton would still succeed behind this OL because he would get the ball out quickly, just like he did in 2010. Now if you want to tweak the comment a little bit to say that Peyton couldn't run the current offense with all of the deep routes behind this OL then that could be considered more correct. He simply does not have the physical athleticism of Luck. He never has, that was never his strength. Therefore he would never be asked to run this type of offense.

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A member posted a "Luck vs RG3" thread which opened a whole can of worms.

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Woooaaahh now, you're getting way ahead of yourself and putting words into my mouth. I don't recall ever saying that RG3 is having the better year. I don't know why I would say that because I don't believe that. I do think that Luck is having the better year but not by as huge a margin as some people are making it out to be. Ultimately, I think that each team got the right QB for the type of offense they want to run, and to say that one could not run the other's offense is just silly because there's no way of proving that.

What I have been doing is try to stand up a little bit for RG3 and some (not all, but some) of the fans of his that post here because I think a lot of the criticisms towards him are unwarranted and inaccurate. I do still believe that some of the colts fans here try to run RG3 down to make themselves feel better about Luck but that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. My posts have, however, primarily been directed towards those people though.

I will also say that I do agree with many of the things Balzer says, such as that one cannot say that another QB would do better than Luck with this offense, and that Luck runs a higher risk offense whereas RG3's is a safer offense. My problem with him generally is in the tone of his comments, not always the actual content of his comments, though I do disagree with him there on some things as well, especially in regards to his feeling that the earlier Luck hype was not to the same level as the current RG3 hype...I completely disagree with that but can see why he would not see it that way.

Well see here is where I partly disagree. I agree that fans can say whatever they want, but when they go to over the top homerism and cutting down other players and/or teams just to lift theirs up, well that's what leads to the fans of other teams coming here. Some come merely to defend their player/team while others go just as over the top as some of the colts fans here do. One begats the other so to say one is ok but the other is not, where the first is the direct cause of the second, simply makes no sense to me. If this were a private forum with private registration and people were faking being Colts fans to get in then that might be one thing. However this is a public forum open to all of the public, whether fans of this team or any other. Heck just as an example, the Eagles forum has a couple of questions on the registration form that try to weed out spammers. One question asked what the nickname of their stadium is. Sure, that answer can easily be found with a simple google search but still, the point is they have taken at least a small step in trying to keep the forum for Eagles fans only. This forum is completely open to all. So to say that others aren't welcome to post their feelings here or that people here can make absurd and over the top comments but fans of other players/teams cannot is extremely hypocritical.

I guess if anything my "special agenda" has been to try to reign in some of the over the top, homeristic type posts and absurd criticisms of other players/teams. Why? Not to try to appear to be a bigger fan of the other players or teams because I'm not (except for Peyton but I've never been anything but honest about that). I have been doing it to try to keep the fans of other players/teams from having to come here in defense of their player/team. If people here stop ripping down other players or teams then, when other fans come here, we can have friendly and civil discussion instead of absurd fights back and forth such as this thread that result in absurd and inaccurate comments from both sides. Basically, I'm trying to get OUR fans to stop being the trolls that they're bringing in and to stop being hypocrites.

So many people keep saying they're tired of fans of other teams/players coming here, but more often than not it's the actions of those doing the complaining that's bringing the other fans here in the first place. If people want the fire to die down, then let's let it die down, and then (most importantly) don't start it again in the next thread/post you make. There's nothing wrong with defending your team or your favorite player, but when you do so by tearing down another player citing a specific example even though that same example applies to your own player then you simply come out sounding stupid. (the "you" in this sentence is a general "you" to the people that it applies to, not to you [balzer] who this portion of my post was in response to).

I agree, for the most part.

Yes, there are people here that think 12 can do no wrong. They may be a bit of the minority but they are here. Most of the fans here are reasonable, and some are overly critical, forgetting the fact that Luck is still just a rookie who is going to make mistakes and then others do go over the top in defending Luck. Also I completely disagree that Peyton wouldn't survive behind this OL. He survived behind the 2010 OL and it was just as bad. Yes he was running a different offense but honestly, if Peyton were still here, do you think he would be running a different type of offense than he ran in years past? No, he'd still be running the offense he was used to. If anything, Peyton still being here might mean that Arians wouldn't be. Or, Arians would have to adjust his offense to what Peyton is used to and comfortable with. Bruce can run the offense he does here because Luck is so mobile that he can buy time. I do still think that there should be more short routes and outlet receivers to give Luck someone to check down to more often, but the point is that Arians wouldn't be running THIS offense if Peyton were here. Essentially, Peyton would still be running the offense that he wants to run and Irsay would make sure of that. So Peyton would still succeed behind this OL because he would get the ball out quickly, just like he did in 2010. Now if you want to tweak the comment a little bit to say that Peyton couldn't run the current offense with all of the deep routes behind this OL then that could be considered more correct. He simply does not have the physical athleticism of Luck. He never has, that was never his strength. Therefore he would never be asked to run this type of offense.

Agree with most of what you said, except the point about why other fans are coming here. In the case of Skins fans, I imagine that they are curious to see what Colts fans are saying about RGIII/Luck to see if it stacks up with their own opinions. This is fine, and if they make an account to discuss it with us, this is also fine. But they aren't coming here because poster "A" made a comment about RGIII that they just have to see. They come here already with a pro-RGIII agenda-- and again, I don't have a problem with them coming here and touting their quarterback as the next greatest thing. But don't come here and start tearing us down because we love our QB and claiming it is "ridiculous" to believe Luck is having the better season. This is a COLTS forum-- and honestly if some posters here think Luck is going to be the greatest QB to ever grace the planet, they should be allowed to post that without being pummelled with negativity. He has not shown us anything to refute that he could be. He hasn't proven that he will be either. When you are a fan of another team, you should expect that fans of the team's forum you are visiting are going to have positive feelings about their own team, and you shouldn't go there just for the sake of heckling that team's fans IMHO.

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A member posted a "Luck vs RG3" thread which opened a whole can of worms.

and those worms fed, multiplied, gorged on growth hormones and were blasted with toxic radiation

:fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks:

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Agree with most of what you said, except the point about why other fans are coming here. In the case of Skins fans, I imagine that they are curious to see what Colts fans are saying about RGIII/Luck to see if it stacks up with their own opinions. This is fine, and if they make an account to discuss it with us, this is also fine. But they aren't coming here because poster "A" made a comment about RGIII that they just have to see. They come here already with a pro-RGIII agenda-- and again,

Ok I could have worded that better. Clearly RG3 fans (or fans of other players/teams for that matter) don't have some sort of magic pager that alerts them when comments are made about their player or team. What I meant was it was some of the comments by Colts fans that caused the RG3 fans to register and comment themselves in order to defend their player.

I don't have a problem with them coming here and touting their quarterback as the next greatest thing. But don't come here and start tearing us down because we love our QB and claiming it is "ridiculous" to believe Luck is having the better season.

The point I've been trying to make is that this goes both ways. RG3 fans don't have to tear down Luck to make RG3 sound better and vice versa. Different people are going to think that one QB is having the better season, and of course fans of a particular QB are, more often than not, be biased towards their guy. Nothing wrong with that, but we don't have to raise our guy by tearing down the other.

This is a COLTS forum-- and honestly if some posters here think Luck is going to be the greatest QB to ever grace the planet, they should be allowed to post that without being pummelled with negativity. He has not shown us anything to refute that he could be. He hasn't proven that he will be either. When you are a fan of another team, you should expect that fans of the team's forum you are visiting are going to have positive feelings about their own team, and you shouldn't go there just for the sake of heckling that team's fans IMHO.

I do agree with you that if a fan wants to believe that Luck is going to be the greatest QB of all time, then there's nothing wrong with that and they should be able to feel that way and express it freely. My point is simply that they can do that quite easily without having to tear down RG3 and the good things he is doing this year in order to make Luck sound even better. The truth of the matter is both QB's are having a very good season, better seasons than probably anyone could have realistically predicted.

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Agree with most of what you said, except the point about why other fans are coming here. In the case of Skins fans, I imagine that they are curious to see what Colts fans are saying about RGIII/Luck to see if it stacks up with their own opinions. This is fine, and if they make an account to discuss it with us, this is also fine. But they aren't coming here because poster "A" made a comment about RGIII that they just have to see. They come here already with a pro-RGIII agenda-- and again, I don't have a problem with them coming here and touting their quarterback as the next greatest thing. But don't come here and start tearing us down because we love our QB and claiming it is "ridiculous" to believe Luck is having the better season. This is a COLTS forum-- and honestly if some posters here think Luck is going to be the greatest QB to ever grace the planet, they should be allowed to post that without being pummelled with negativity. He has not shown us anything to refute that he could be. He hasn't proven that he will be either. When you are a fan of another team, you should expect that fans of the team's forum you are visiting are going to have positive feelings about their own team, and you shouldn't go there just for the sake of heckling that team's fans IMHO.

I've read ExtremeSkins from time to time, and I actually think I've read more here about RG3 than I have on that website regarding Luck. I may be wrong but that's just my limited time reading both forums.

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Also I completely disagree that Peyton wouldn't survive behind this OL. He survived behind the 2010 OL and it was just as bad. Yes he was running a different offense but honestly, if Peyton were still here, do you think he would be running a different type of offense than he ran in years past? No, he'd still be running the offense he was used to. If anything, Peyton still being here might mean that Arians wouldn't be. Or, Arians would have to adjust his offense to what Peyton is used to and comfortable with. Bruce can run the offense he does here because Luck is so mobile that he can buy time. I do still think that there should be more short routes and outlet receivers to give Luck someone to check down to more often, but the point is that Arians wouldn't be running THIS offense if Peyton were here. Essentially, Peyton would still be running the offense that he wants to run and Irsay would make sure of that. So Peyton would still succeed behind this OL because he would get the ball out quickly, just like he did in 2010. Now if you want to tweak the comment a little bit to say that Peyton couldn't run the current offense with all of the deep routes behind this OL then that could be considered more correct. He simply does not have the physical athleticism of Luck. He never has, that was never his strength. Therefore he would never be asked to run this type of offense.

That is what i said. Manning would struggle behind THIS O line in THIS system.

Saying that Manning would do fine behind this line running his system is pointless, that system is not the one being ran here.

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Russell Wilson, Colin Kap, RG3, Cam Newton and Andrew Luck can all flat out run the ball. They can and are winning games by running. Luck runs the least and throws the most. He and Cam Newton are taking their lumps now, while these other guys will take their's next year. Only a fool believes a QB in the NFL can continue to run and not get hurt. Even Big Ben gets hurt and he is as big and tough a QB as there is.

Ben gets hit a lot because he extends plays and holds on to the ball for a long time, not becuase he runs downfield. Which is exactly what Luck does right now, the reason why he is getting blasted a lot. I would think with a bad O-line he'd get the ball out faster

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That is what i said. Manning would struggle behind THIS O line in THIS system.

The post of yours that I quoted was made at 11:44 and in that post, you didn't specify "this system". It was in a follow-up post at 12:03 when you specified Peyton couldn't run "this system" behind "this oL", which I agree with. I had not yet seen your follow up post when I replied to the first one, and that's why a lot of what I said in reply to you was very much what you clarified in your later post. So for any confusion, I apologize but essentially we agree.

Saying that Manning would do fine behind this line running his system is pointless, that system is not the one being ran here.

Well, ok, but then saying that Manning could not run this system behind this OL is just as pointless because he's not the QB here. If Peyton were here it would be a different system behind this OL. With Luck here, it's a different system from the one Peyton would run. Either way, my belief is that Peyton would have also been successful behind this OL because he would have been running a different style of offense, one that is much more suited to his strengths, just like the offense that Luck is running is more suited to his strengths....well somewhat. Perhaps it would be better to say that one of Luck's biggest strengths (his athleticism) allows for this system to be run here. If it was any type of straight up pocket passer running this style of system then the number of sacks taken would be astronomical.

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Ben gets hit a lot because he extends plays and holds on to the ball for a long time, not becuase he runs downfield. Which is exactly what Luck does right now, the reason why he is getting blasted a lot. I would think with a bad O-line he'd get the ball out faster

The biggest hits I've seen on Luck have been in the pocket when he wasn't able to escape, not when running downfield. When he runs downfield, he tends to run towards the sidelines or gets low at almost the right time, though sometimes a fraction of a second too late. Point being he's taken the big hits, imo, when he's still in the pocket and not when he's run out of the pocket or downfield.

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The biggest hits I've seen on Luck have been in the pocket when he wasn't able to escape, not when running downfield. When he runs downfield, he tends to run towards the sidelines or gets low at almost the right time, though sometimes a fraction of a second too late. Point being he's taken the big hits, imo, when he's still in the pocket and not when he's run out of the pocket or downfield.

No I'm saying he is doing what Raotheieslelberger does.

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16 Interceptions 5 fumbles lost thats 21 turnovers and when your hit several times a game because he is playing WITHOUT an O Line and you have an incompetent O Coordinator(yes thats right Arians has shown complete incompetence at times, many in fact) who does not know how to use his QB's strengths to his advantage then your going to turn the ball over some, No excuses just facts

Excuses ...

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Ignoring that its B/R and that the writer has some bias towards the Colts I thought this was still a interesting breakdown, I know some of these numbers have been touched on already but it also throw in comparisons across the other QBs around and historical numbers:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1433559-how-do-nfls-2012-rookie-qbs-stack-up-in-the-clutch

It's not the be all and end all by any means.

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So, basically rg3 is the next evolution in qb. Is having a better year and apparently we should of drafted. Got it....now roll out and have fun drueling over your boy. Cause I'd still take Luck over him. And I love the colts fans who don't even support their own qb and constantly talk smack and want another. Kick mud maybe? Be a Denver or Washington fan.

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Statistical Comparison

I will attempt to compare Andrew Luck and RGIII based purely on their stats and the implications of their stats. For those who will say “the only stat that I care about is 8-4” that’s fine and all, it’s just that this post isn’t intended for you.

All information is based on stats as of December 4, 2012.

Their basic stat lines read as:

Andrew Luck- 279 of 503 Attempts 55.5% Completion 17TDs 16INTs 3596 Yards 76.1 Rating

Robert Griffen III 218 of 325 Attempts 67.1% Completion 17TDs 4 INTs 2660 Yards 104.4 Rating

Comparison on downs

RG3

1st Down 89 of 131 1301 Yards 67.9% Completion

2nd Down 71 of 102 792 Yards 69.6% Completion

3rd Down 52 of 85 520 Yards 61.2% Completion

4th Down 6 of 7 47 Yards 85.7% Completion

Luck

1st Down 114 of 208 1520 Yards 54.8% Completion

2nd Down 90 of 158 964 Yards 57.0% Completion

3rd Down 72 of 134 1059 Yards 53.7% Completion

4th Down 3 of 3 53 Yards 100.0% Completion

Third down conversion is another statistic of importance.

RG3 38% 3rd Down Conversion Percentage

Luck 46% 3rd Down Conversion Percentage (Among the highest in the league)

RG3 is best on 3rd Down and 0-2 Yards to go 6 of 7 85.7% completion % 140.8 QB Rating.

Luck in similar situation : 8 of 17 47.1% Completion % 62.4 QB Rating

Luck is best on 3rd Down and 11+ Yards to go 18 of 30 60.0% completion % 106.4 QB Rating

RG3 in similar situation: 13 of 23 56.5% Completion % 64.8% QB Rating

Passes Thrown

RG3

Behind the LOS 58 of 74 316 Yards 78.4% Completion

1-10 yards 95 of 145 862 Yards 65.5% Completion

11-20 Yards 41 of 58 874 Yards 70.7% Completion

21-30 Yards 7 of 13 199 Yards 53.8% Completion

31-40 Yards 0 of 3 0 Yards 0. 0% Completion

41+ Yards 4 of 11 246 Yards 36.4% Completion

67% Of RG3’s passes are within 10 yards of the LOS. RG3 has a higher completion percentage with throws 41+ yards. RG3 is more accurate at all levels of throws with the exception of passes 31-40 yards.

Luck

Behind the LOS 44 of 67 254 Yards 65.7% Completion

1-10 Yards 125 of 202 1205Yards 61.9% Completion

11-20 Yards 68 of 121 1153Yards 56.2% Completion

21-30 Yards 15 of 38 468 Yards 39.5% Completion

31-40 Yards 2 of 12 77 Yards 16.7% Completion

41+ Yards 1 of 9 18 Yards 11.1% Completion

53% of Luck’s passes are within 10 Yards of the LOS. Luck gains most of his passing yards between 1-20 yards from the LOS.

After a statistical review, it's evident that statistically, RG3 has had the better year. I am aware that statistics do not tell the entire story and that there are numerous other situations and intangibles to consider such as offensive systems, offensive line, defense, opponenets faced, wins, team pass attempts vs run attemps. Some of those things cannot be weighed evenly and calculated, so we're just left with statistics.

If I can infer some things from the stats, it's that RG3 is in a very precise offense and his accuracy is a great benefit to the system, while also benefiting from the system. Conversely, Luck is in a system that does ask him to throw the ball down the field more and therefore explains the amount of yards gained passing, and may also explain the high interception rate, as he is throwing into the heart of the defense more regularly. What is evident however, is that at most levels of throws down the field, RG3 does have a higher completion percentage. Although us Colts fans may argue for reasons why, we have to admit that we would love for Luck to be more accurate and throw less interceptions. An interesting note: The Redskins offense is very innovative and suits RG3 very well. As mentioned earlier, it's very precise offense, but when things do not work out and the team is faced with third and long, RG3 has a low conversion rate. This would lead me to think that his strength are throwing precise short routes, and more accurate very deep routes. The numbers seem to indicate that in passing downs, when asked to drop back and read a defense and make a throw 11+ yards, he has had his difficulties. Meanwhile, Luck has had his difficulties connecting on long passes of 41+ yards.

Link... please...

Here is ESPN.com stat info on total team O...

Specifically 3rd down conversions.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/downs/sort/thirdDownConvs

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True, but being a fan of another team does not mean that you can't acknowledge reality. I get that this is a Colts forum, but threads like this that go on and on with repetitive arguments about silly misconceptions is what fuels the fire that so many want to die out.

True, but lets be honest. We are doing MUCH better then expected and even you hoped for. You had us at 4 wins right? Vance maybe at 5 or 6 I don't remember.

I used to hear the two of you almost giggling through your computer screens when people had optimism here heading into the year or before any early games. When we beat the Vikings people were like, "Now don't get your hopes up. It's only the Vikings."

I like you Texans fans but be honest. If RG3 was the Colts QB would you guys be parading around cheerleading for him like you do now?

As for the Skins they DO have a shot to win the division. So do the Cowboys as hard as it is to believe and the Giants are still in the division lead.

And I won't be stunned at all if the Redskins beat the Ravens this weekend. Ravens D is not nearly as good as it's reputation suggests this year and they are quite soft vs. the run compared to previous seasons.

Of course when the Redskins lost games we often had silence. When the Skins lost to the woeful Panthers I heard nothing about them or RG3 here.

And I will say it once and I will say it again. Irsay was always going to draft Luck over RG3. He still would.

RG3 is an electrifying and exciting player. He is like drugs right now. IMO the short term benefits and highs of RG3 do not out weigh the long term benefits of Andrew Luck as a more traditional QB who we are used to seeing have success in this league.

Just say no to drugs kids.

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It is better to have difference than general agreement all the time. How boring would that be? Myself and the Redskins fans are not the only ones who think this argument is ridiculous. I have seen Colts fans (Jason being one of them) who acknowledge that Griffin is indeed having the better season and there is no doubt about it. Numbers don't lie my friend. Griffin throws short passes? Cool. So does Brady, Manning, other elite quarterbacks as well. Griffin has beaten Newton's rushing record, but according to some, he wasn't going to last the whole season because of hits he took? He seems just fine to me. They run different offenses, yes, but Griffin runs his better. He doesn't have to put up 300 yard games and lead his team out of deep holes in order to win, and that's perfectly fine. At first the knock on Griffin was that he can put up numbers but winning is everything...because 12 was winning. Now that Griffin is winning too, what can people resort to? The numbers argument. Wins don't lie and stats don't either.

Yes, RGiii is breaking records but at the same time so is Luck. Luck will most likely shatter Newtons passing record and blaming it on an Arians offense would be the same as blaming RGiii's rushing record on Shanahans offense.

Point of the matter is they are both performing phenomenal and breaking records. What Luck has done with the Colts who (at the beginning of the year where favored to win few games) is unbelievable. What the Skins & RGiii are doing is phenomenal as well.

Statistically RGiii is having better numbers where Luck is better in terms of comeback wins aka clutch.

They each have their strengths, if Luck could cut down a good portion of the INTs it sure would make him look much better. Pretty much just needs to work on some better decisions, which I'm sure he will.

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Yes, RGiii is breaking records but at the same time so is Luck. Luck will most likely shatter Newtons passing record and blaming it on an Arians offense would be the same as blaming RGiii's rushing record on Shanahans offense.

Point of the matter is they are both performing phenomenal and breaking records. What Luck has done with the Colts who (at the beginning of the year where favored to win few games) is unbelievable. What the Skins & RGiii are doing is phenomenal as well.

Statistically RGiii is having better numbers where Luck is better in terms of comeback wins aka clutch.

They each have their strengths, if Luck could cut down a good portion of the INTs it sure would make him look much better. Pretty much just needs to work on some better decisions, which I'm sure he will.

Andrew and Indy are playing with so many rookies on O... I listened to a Reggie Wayne interview on 1260 the other day. And he said point blank... "we are not ready to go no huddle" ...

It takes time. It can take YEARS. But this O, when it gets on track will be DEADLY.

It's coming...

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