Is Shane Calling Plays to Win Games or to Groom AR?

[Smonroe]

And before anyone writes anything, I know it's not mutually exclusive.

 

Here's the reasoning - so far, AR has run the ball 18 times in three games.  They're mostly playing him as a pocket passer.  As if they're teaching him the position.  Very few called runs or RPOs.  Hence, the offense hasn't stayed on the field nearly enough to help out the D.

 

Whereas the Commanders have run Daniels 38 times.  They're basically running his college offense.  They're doing whatever it takes to win games.  In the long run, that may not be a sound strategy if he ends up like RGknee.

 

There's no question that AR is a more dangerous runner, but the concern is injury.  

 

Personally, I think Shane is taking the right approach.  We need to see if AR is the franchise this season. 

[chad72]

Shane has always had the mindset of get ahead with the pass but drain the clock and finish it off with the run. Regardless of what he sees in practice with AR with a red jersey where he can complete underneath passes with less pressure, game play has shown things to be different. So, with regards to the run game, he has not taken off the training wheels for AR with him coming off an injury, while he is adapting his passing game play calling to what he sees with AR on the field. 

 

With AR probably still doing rehab, the full examination of his mechanics, I had to guess, wasn't completely possible at TC??? Then add the "can't touch the QB" principles employed in TC dilutes anything he could glean on the mechanics front without much pressure, is my educated guess.

 

I really feel that the second half of the season is where we will see more things come together. It is like my friend's friend's daughter who is French American, who was half fluent in French and English till around 7 or 8, and then by 10, she was fluent in both. AR is still putting it together, Shane is still putting it together on several fronts. That is my measured response with a hint of optimism.  

[Smonroe]

13 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Shane has always had the mindset of get ahead with the pass but drain the clock and finish it off with the run. Regardless of what he sees in practice with AR with a red jersey where he can complete underneath passes with less pressure, game play has shown things to be different. So, with regards to the run game, he has not taken off the training wheels for AR with him coming off an injury, while he is adapting his passing game play calling to what he sees with AR on the field. 

 

With AR probably still doing rehab, the full examination of his mechanics, I had to guess, wasn't completely possible at TC??? Then add the "can't touch the QB" principles employed in TC dilutes anything he could glean on the mechanics front without much pressure, is my educated guess.

 

I really feel that the second half of the season is where we will see more things come together. It is like my friend's friend's daughter who was French American who was half fluent in French and English till around 7 or 8, and then by 10, she was fluent in both. AR is still putting it together, Shane is still putting it together on several fronts. That is my measured response with a hint of optimism.  

 

AR is getting close.  And I agree with you about Shane.  AR needs to clean up a few things and the offense could roll without him always running.  

 

But I still feel they need to have a called run and a few more RPOs to keep the defenses on their heels.  Even with what they're doing now, it's helping Taylor.  It can only get better when they use AR a little more like that.

 

However - injuries is always the wildcard.  Look how many good players around the league are already out for weeks or even on IR for the year.  Quality depth is going to tell the tale.

[BeanDiasucci]

I wonder if they're being more careful with Anthony Richardson early in the season because another significant early-season injury would be a disaster. They surely can't afford for him to be essentially a rookie again next season. Maybe he will run the ball more after he's gotten a fair bit of experience this season and an injury wouldn't completely throw his development back to the starting point again. He also may need to prove that he's gotten better in avoiding big hits, which could be a process that takes a while.  

[Solid84]

The thing is, if AR ran more, defenses would give him more opportunities in the passing game.

 

AR has a pocket passer's mentality, but he's SO raw. I don't think there's anything wrong in using his athletic ability while he's transitioning to NFL football and learning to be a QB.

[Smonroe]

1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

The thing is, if AR ran more, defenses would give him more opportunities in the passing game.

 

AR has a pocket passer's mentality, but he's SO raw. I don't think there's anything wrong in using his athletic ability while he's transitioning to NFL football and learning to be a QB.

 

I agree.  The only issue is if he has the mental discipline to slide or go down early instead of bulling through a defender.  When you're in the heat of a game, it has to be hard to pull up the reins.

 

Mahomes is the gold standard.  He often will run when the opportunity is there, but he rarely gets hit.  Still, even he's had injuries.  They're not 100% preventable, but you can help yourself avoid them.

[EasyE]

He definitely doing something different. Sure not using JT that much and I would pull my hair out if I had any. Lol 

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, EasyE said:

He definitely doing something different. Sure not using JT that much and I would pull my hair out if I had any. Lol 

JT is over 100 yards in each of the last two games.   He is the reason they beat the Bears.  He needs more touches though.   I agree

[DougDew]

The NFL is a passing league.  Running is for killing the clock, for which you need to have a running game/RB powerful enough to run the ball when the opposing D knows you are going to run the ball.  Teams don't really need a big play running game. That is a separate issue from ARs play.

 

Since last year was a throw away year that followed a 4-12 season to focus on ARs development , that we did not get, this year should be that year.  Why would there be any complaints about that?

 

But, there needs to be better time of possession so AR can get more reps, not because we should be winning games in a season where we still don't have good enough personnel to contend for anything beyond a weak AFC South division title.

[jvan1973]

43 minutes ago, DougDew said:

The NFL is a passing league.  Running is for killing the clock, for which you need to have a running game/RB powerful enough to run the ball when the opposing D knows you are going to run the ball.  Teams don't really need a big play running game. That is a separate issue from ARs play.

 

Since last year was a throw away year that followed a 4-12 season to focus on ARs development , that we did not get, this year should be that year.  Why would there be any complaints about that?

 

But, there needs to be better time of possession so AR can get more reps, not because we should be winning games in a season where we still don't have good enough personnel to contend for anything beyond a weak AFC South division title.

A power running game will always be effective .  JT needs more touches

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

A power running game will always be effective .  JT needs more touches

Yes agree on both, but JT isn't a power back per se....the pile mover I'm talking about when teams are closing out the game and the D knows you are running.  That's another convo.

 

But AR should benefit from more JT touches during the majority of the game.  Increasing TOP would get AR more passing plays.

[jvan1973]

35 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yes agree on both, but JT isn't a power back per se....the pile mover I'm talking about when teams are closing out the game and the D knows you are running.  That's another convo.

 

But AR should benefit from more JT touches during the majority of the game.  Increasing TOP would get AR more passing plays.

The Bears knew JT would be getting the ball at 2:01.  The oline and JT pounded it for a first down.   What you are talking about,  literally just happened 

[Smonroe]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

The NFL is a passing league.  Running is for killing the clock, for which you need to have a running game/RB powerful enough to run the ball when the opposing D knows you are going to run the ball.  Teams don't really need a big play running game. That is a separate issue from ARs play.

 

Since last year was a throw away year that followed a 4-12 season to focus on ARs development , that we did not get, this year should be that year.  Why would there be any complaints about that?

 

But, there needs to be better time of possession so AR can get more reps, not because we should be winning games in a season where we still don't have good enough personnel to contend for anything beyond a weak AFC South division title.

Running is not just for killing the clock.  You increase ToP by running.  
 

The game is about first downs.  We don’t need AR to complete 70%, just to “make the layups”.  Maybe run to extend a drive when it’s there for the taking.  
 

I can think of at least one play where he scrambled, and could have gotten the first if he continued to run.  But he tried for the bigger gain and missed on the pass.  4th down, punt.  

 

I’m not sure he’s being coached not to run or it’s his call.  He wasn’t like that last season.  
 

[atapcl]

I believe Shane is trying to both win and gain experience for AR. WRs have been open and AR has missed them. WRs have also dropped passes they should have caught.

[indyagent17]

Good Headline.

 

I think there are two distinct issues going on here. I think Shane is forcing Richardson to throw the ball because the lack of called running plays. I think Shane is always waiting for the big hit in the passing game. Do you need to work on the simple and short game that moves the chains

[NewColtsFan]

Both.   Shane is trying to win and groom AR at the same time.   He can do both.  

[Smonroe]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Both.   Shane is trying to win and groom AR at the same time.   He can do both.  

Well, look at it this way.  If it were a playoff game, Shane would have AR run a lot more.   There’s a lot better chance to win, right?  So you have to at least agree he’s not treating these games like that.

 

Yes, I think he’d love to win and let AR develop in the pocket.  But he’s either not going to risk injury, or he’s treating this as a developmental year for AR.   Going all out to win isn’t happening.  
 

As I said earlier, Daniels has twice as many runs as AR.  That strategy may not pay off if he gets hurt, but it’s working for them so far.  

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

Well, look at it this way.  If it were a playoff game, Shane would have AR run a lot more.   There’s a lot better chance to win, right?  So you have to at least agree he’s not treating these games like that.

 

Yes, I think he’d love to win and let AR develop in the pocket.  But he’s either not going to risk injury, or he’s treating this as a developmental year for AR.   Going all out to win isn’t happening.  
 

As I said earlier, Daniels has twice as many runs as AR.  That strategy may not pay off if he gets hurt, but it’s working for them so far.  

Huh?

 

Are you under the impression that a head coach — any head coach — approaches all 17 regular season games like a playoff game?   They don’t.   
 

So I don’t care what Wash is doing with Daniels, they’re not the same player.  Daniels is far more experienced than AR, so how Wash uses JD is going to be different than how Steichen uses AR.  
 

So my point is that Steichen can try to do both….   groom Richardson AND win games.  It doesn’t have to be one or the other.  It can be both. 

Sorry we see this differently.  

[lollygagger8]

I would personally like to see more bootlegs, and more throws on the run. AR is SO good at that.

 

Especially since they love playing out of shotgun so much. 

 

 

 

 

[Smonroe]

7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Huh?

 

Are you under the impression that a head coach — any head coach — approaches all 17 regular season games like a playoff game?   They don’t.   
 

So I don’t care what Wash is doing with Daniels, they’re not the same player.  Daniels is far more experienced than AR, so how Wash uses JD is going to be different than how Steichen uses AR.  
 

So my point is that Steichen can try to do both….   groom Richardson AND win games.  It doesn’t have to be one or the other.  It can be both. 

Sorry we see this differently.  

Just giving an example.  Here’s another one - remember when we had great teams and they’d rest starters at the end of the season?  They’d always say “we want to win” but they weren’t doing everything TO win.

 

That’s what I’m asking.  I know Shane and everyone else associated with the team WANT to win.  My question was - are they doing everything TO win?  Or is this season more about getting AR experience?

 

The answer is only Both if you think they’re calling plays that use all of AR’s skills.  
 

Personally, I think they’re taking AR along slowly.  Winning is important, but secondary.

[Smonroe]

Interesting article.  Nothing any of us didn't know.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres-why-anthony-richardson-is-the-most-boom-or-bust-quarterback-since-the-merger/

[tweezy32]

The thing is, he doent even need to run... He has had wrs open all game. Just needs to hit them and we easily win most games! EASILY!

[richard pallo]

First and foremost he is trying to win the game.  He has coaches whose job is to groom and develop AR.  He is being measured on wins and losses.  Like all coaches.  The Carolina coach benching Young is the perfect example.  If he’s not getting the job done you move onto plan B.  Otherwise it’s his job.

[Smonroe]

39 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

First and foremost he is trying to win the game.  He has coaches whose job is to groom and develop AR.  He is being measured on wins and losses.  Like all coaches.  The Carolina coach benching Young is the perfect example.  If he’s not getting the job done you move onto plan B.  Otherwise it’s his job.

I Respectfully disagree.  I do agree that Shane is trying to win games.

 

What I don’t agree on is that he’s using AR to his full advantage to do so.  It may be injury concern, or that he feels AR isn’t quite back to 100% from surgery.  But he’s not using him like he did last season. 
 

I’m not saying it’s wrong, and I hope it’s for the best.  But I think ARs development is more important to the franchise than winning right now.

 

I gave the example of Daniels.  They’re letting him run, it definitely helps them to stay in games.  That may not be a smart strategy if he ends up like RGknee, but you can see they’re trying to win now.  

[BeanDiasucci]

Through three games, Richardson is tied for sixth among QBs with 18 rushing attempts (6.0 per game). That's about half of the rushing attempts of league leaders Jayden Daniels, Lamar Jackson, and Jalen Hurts. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-qb-rushing-yards-leaders-2024

[Boondoggle]

This is where quality of your coach is so important.  And I think Shane is a quality coach to handle this situation.  Also I agree he is doing it right.  It's ugly, but he is balancing a big investment at QB with his job security which is very tough.

 

Running QBs often reach that point where the staff decides they are never going to learn to win from the pocket, and it is then you see the scheme revert back to college type approach and general simplicity to allow them to translate to the field.  But to get to that point you need to at least give the QB the opportunity.  Because once they do reach that point the team will usually be looking for another QB.

 

The way you build a perennial winner is finding a QB who can give you an edge from the pocket.  Given that, mobility and off schedule instincts are an advantage and desired.  But the latter will never trump the former because if your QB needs to be in space to see the defense and make his throws then defenses will be able to shut him down in the playoffs.  QBs like that don't win 3 or 4 games in a row against the best defenses in the league, which is required to hoist a Lombardi.

 

I mean look at Allen.  He developed the ability to win from the pocket.  He has had good teams around him.  He is a dominant run threat.  And he still has come up short in the playoffs.  When there are guys like him and Mahomes with rosters around them, you aren't gonna get past them with a QB who can't do the job from the pocket.

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Smonroe said:

Just giving an example.  Here’s another one - remember when we had great teams and they’d rest starters at the end of the season?  They’d always say “we want to win” but they weren’t doing everything TO win.

 

That’s what I’m asking.  I know Shane and everyone else associated with the team WANT to win.  My question was - are they doing everything TO win?  Or is this season more about getting AR experience?

 

The answer is only Both if you think they’re calling plays that use all of AR’s skills.  
 

Personally, I think they’re taking AR along slowly.  Winning is important, but secondary.

Good answer.  I think that’s basically fair, so I’d say this…. 
 

That the HC has an obligation to win as much as he can.  He owes it to every veteran player who realize their career could end soon.   Certainly their time with the Colts could end soon.  
 

So while the Colts may be the youngest team in the NFL, it certainly one of the youngest, there are players who are 30 or very close to it.   And I think they believe SS is doing everything he can to win, while developing AR.  
 

Good discussion. 

[Moosejawcolt]

23 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

The Bears knew JT would be getting the ball at 2:01.  The oline and JT pounded it for a first down.   What you are talking about,  literally just happened 

I think teams are going to give up the run and force offence to march down the field on a 10 play drive and score. They are going to take away the big play and make Richardson throw intermediate and short passes. The defense believes that he will throw up a pick and/or the offense will stall.  Although,  I dislike the cover 2 defense, it is perfect against a guy like Richardson. The Colts have not shown that they can put long drives together. It is early and it is up to Richardson to make teams attack more. If they continue to run with success and Richardson makes those easy plays.  Then it is a different ball game and it opens up everything. Quite simple actually, lol.  If Taylor is pounding the rock against 4 man fronts because Richardson has improved his accuracy.  Then the D will have to pick their poison. Do you play up to stop the run, short and intermediate passes? Or do they play back to stop the big play? Richardson's evolution, if it happens, will stress the defense probably like no other qb because of his skill set.

[jvan1973]

16 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I think teams are going to give up the run and force offence to march down the field on a 10 play drive and score. They are going to take away the big play and make Richardson throw intermediate and short passes. The defense believes that he will throw up a pick and/or the offense will stall.  Although,  I dislike the cover 2 defense, it is perfect against a guy like Richardson. The Colts have not shown that they can put long drives together. It is early and it is up to Richardson to make teams attack more. If they continue to run with success and Richardson makes those easy plays.  Then it is a different ball game and it opens up everything. Quite simple actually, lol.  If Taylor is pounding the rock against 4 man fronts because Richardson has improved his accuracy.  Then the D will have to pick their poison. Do you play up to stop the run, short and intermediate passes? Or do they play back to stop the big play? Richardson's evolution, if it happens, will stress the defense probably like no other qb because of his skill set.

The Bears knew exactly what the Colts were going to do on their last drive.   That's what my post was was about.   Maybe you quoted the wrong post?

[Moosejawcolt]

6 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The Bears knew exactly what the Colts were going to do on their last drive.   That's what my post was was about.   Maybe you quoted the wrong post?

Yes, but the element of Richardson running more in the latter quarter also contributed to the Colts ability to run it with success

[csmopar]

On 9/26/2024 at 2:40 PM, Smonroe said:

And before anyone writes anything, I know it's not mutually exclusive.

 

Here's the reasoning - so far, AR has run the ball 18 times in three games.  They're mostly playing him as a pocket passer.  As if they're teaching him the position.  Very few called runs or RPOs.  Hence, the offense hasn't stayed on the field nearly enough to help out the D.

 

Whereas the Commanders have run Daniels 38 times.  They're basically running his college offense.  They're doing whatever it takes to win games.  In the long run, that may not be a sound strategy if he ends up like RGknee.

 

There's no question that AR is a more dangerous runner, but the concern is injury.  

 

Personally, I think Shane is taking the right approach.  We need to see if AR is the franchise this season. 

Well considering Shane and Ballard have both said the plan this season is to slowly ease AR into the role, I’d say, yes they’re keeping the training wheels on and the reigns tight while trying to let him take his licks via the passing game. 
 

I think it’s the right approach right now

[jvan1973]

24 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Yes, but the element of Richardson running more in the latter quarter also contributed to the Colts ability to run it with success

The Colts lined up and ran out down there throat.  The Bears knew they were gonna get pounded, and they couldn't stop it

[Superman]

7 hours ago, Smonroe said:

I Respectfully disagree.  I do agree that Shane is trying to win games.

 

What I don’t agree on is that he’s using AR to his full advantage to do so.  It may be injury concern, or that he feels AR isn’t quite back to 100% from surgery.  But he’s not using him like he did last season. 
 

I’m not saying it’s wrong, and I hope it’s for the best.  But I think ARs development is more important to the franchise than winning right now.

 

I gave the example of Daniels.  They’re letting him run, it definitely helps them to stay in games.  That may not be a smart strategy if he ends up like RGknee, but you can see they’re trying to win now.  

 

I think he's probably only using 25% of his playbook so far, for various reasons. Some of that is intentional, as they work in some concepts with a young QB and a young-ish supporting cast.

 

Another part of it is that the Colts game script has been heavily skewed, especially in the first two games, so the gameplan had to be reduced as the game went along. The offense couldn't stay on the field, and the defense couldn't get off of it. It was better against the Bears, but their offense still ran 30 more plays than ours. Total, our offense has run 87 fewer plays than our opponents. Teams usually script their first 15 offensive plays, and I wonder if the Colts have gotten through that opening script in any of the first three games. So I think there are some things that they'd like to have run, but so far they have not been able to get to them.

 

I don't think it's a binary 'do we call winning plays, or do we call plays to develop the QB' consideration. I don't necessarily agree that those priorities have to compete with one another, but it does require a balance to do them both justice. I don't think it does this team any good, short term or long term, to restrict Richardson to 15 passing attempts/game, or to use him as an option QB like this is the Navy team, even if they felt like that could be a way to win some games. I also don't think they should coach him as if every game is "winner take all," and have him lay his body on the line or try to drop back 50 times a game. 

 

And we have to blame Richardson and the WRs to a certain extent. There have been a lot of missed throws, drops, and turnovers. Those plays have stalled or ended several possessions, and that's not on the play calling.

[Superman]

54 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The Colts lined up and ran out down there throat.  The Bears knew they were gonna get pounded, and they couldn't stop it

 

Game on the line, inconsistent passer at QB, and the OL is the strength of the team. Everyone in the world knew that the first priority was to stop JT. And they couldn't. 

 

I don't know what's with this myth that there's something deficient about JT as a RB. It's nonsense.