Training Camp August 2nd

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

We might be able to cover  up the SS  easier yes. What about injuries ect. It’s not really solving the issue. 

 

 You are implying that you know more than the coaching staff. 

 Blackmon was supposed to be more of a free safety. The light just didn't quite come on so they tried him at SS and he played better as the season went on. 

 It was a surprise to some that he played in a career high 15 games because he is a little wirey. 11 games in 22 and  6 games in 21.

 So it's your opinion that him finally getting a lot of game experience with a opportunity to learn from it, won't transfer to him being able to play his natural position at a high level, while others take on the SS position and hopefully have their career years? Let the coaches coach, and the players keep improving, last season was a different team.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

2 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 You are implying that you know more than the coaching staff. 

 Blackmon was supposed to be more of a free safety. The light just didn't quite come on so they tried him at SS and he played better as the season went on. 

 It was a surprise to some that he played in a career high 15 games because he is a little wirey. 11 games in 22 and  6 games in 21.

 So it's your opinion that him finally getting a lot of game experience with a opportunity to learn from it, won't transfer to him being able to play his natural position at a high level, while others take on the SS position and hopefully have their career years? Let the coaches coach, and the players keep improving, last season was a different team.

Everyone knows the safety group as a whole is not good.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

 

[GoColts8818]

I don’t think they are going to move Blackmon full time like some want.  By all accounts he’s been lights out at SS in camp and you don’t fix a weakness by making a strength a weakness if you can at all avoid it.  Worth mentioning Blackmon has not been good at FS when the Colts have played him there before as well.  
 

It’s camp they look at things but I don’t think that’s the long term plan.  I could be wrong though.

[krunk]

8 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

 

I didn't even realize Titus Leo played in the preseason last year before he got hurt. Thought the injury was in camp before any games.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/titus-leo-charges-up-middle-for-sack-vs-bears

 

[krunk]

43 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

 

Was hilarious!

 

AdeToni. Who?

 

Oh you talking bout Tommy Boy!

[CR91]

Latu sounds like the real deal. I'm hoping he sacks C.J week 1 and is a recurring theme for the next 10 years

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

 

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, AKB said:

maybe he's just not that good at dealing with safety or secondaries in general.  (I might be off by like a year on one or two)

 

---Draft Picks:
1. **2017** - **Quincy Wilson** (2nd round, 46th overall) - BUST
3. **2019** - **Rock Ya-Sin** (2nd round, 34th overall) - TRADED FOR A PASS RUSHER (1 YEAR)

2. **2020** - **Isaiah Rodgers** (6th round, 211th overall) - BUSTED FOR GAMBLING
4. **2020** - **Julian Blackmon** (3rd round, 85th overall) - Primarily a safety but has played cornerback. (GOAL!)
5. **2021** - **Kenny Moore II** (Undrafted Free Agent) - Not drafted but significant as he was signed in 2017 and became a key player. (UDFA DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH)
6. **2022** - **Dallis Flowers** (Undrafted Free Agent) - Not drafted but notable for contributions to special teams and cornerback depth. (UDFA - C- GRADE)
7. **2023** - **Darius Rush** (5th round, 138th overall) (ONE OF THE FEW TIMES BALLARD HAS CUT HIS OWN SO QUICK)

 

---Free Agent Signings:
1. **2017** - **Nate Hairston** (Undrafted Free Agent) - Added depth to the cornerback position. (NOT GOOD)
2. **2018** - **Pierre Desir** (Free Agent from the Cleveland Browns) (GOOD FIND< BUT DIDNT LAST LONG)
3. **2020** - **T.J. Carrie** (Free Agent from the Cleveland Browns) (AGING VET< DEPTH)
4. **2021** - **Xavier Rhodes** (Free Agent, former Pro Bowl cornerback from the Minnesota Vikings) (ANOTHER TEAMS LEGACY CORNER AT THE END OF HIS CAREER)
5. **2022** - **Brandon Facyson** (Free Agent from the Las Vegas Raiders) (ARGUABLY THE WORST ON HERE)

6. **2022** - Stephon Gilmore (Trade with the Carolina Panthers) (GREAT MOVE< BUT THE ROSTER WAS SO BAD HE WANTED OUT)

 

-------------------------He arguably has handled safety better than the corner -------------------------------

 

Draft Picks:

2017 - Malik Hooker (1st round, 15th overall) - Primarily a free safety. (INJURY - COWBOY)

2019 - Khari Willis (4th round, 135th overall) - Primarily a strong safety. (CHOSE RELIGION OVER FOOTBALL)

2020 - Julian Blackmon (3rd round, 85th overall) - Primarily a free safety. (TOP 15 SAFETY MOST LIKELY THIS SEASON- WOULD BE A BELOW AVERAGE CORNER)

2021 - Shawn Davis (5th round, 160th overall) - Primarily a strong safety. (F TIER PICK)

2022 - Nick Cross (3rd round, 96th overall) - Primarily a strong safety. (JURY STILL OUT)

 

Free Agent Signings and Trades:

2017 - Matthias Farley (Free Agent from the New York Jets) - Primarily a strong safety. (ATHLETIC STOP GAP< UNRELIABLE

2018 - Mike Mitchell (Free Agent, retired before the season started) - Briefly signed but did not play for the Colts. (GREAT SIGNING< REMINDS ME OF MIKE DAVIS SIGNING IN THE PAST, HE HELPED THE TEAM A LOT)

2021 - Andrew Sendejo (Free Agent from the Minnesota Vikings) - Primarily a strong safety. (DUDE PLAYED HARD< AND GAVE US EVERYTHING< GOOD SIGNING)

2021 - George Odum (Free Agent from the San Francisco 49ers) - Primarily a strong safety/special teams contributor. (SPECIAL TEAMER WHO GOT PLAY TIME BECAUSE THE ROSTER WAS BAD)

2022 - Rodney McLeod (Free Agent from the Philadelphia Eagles) - Primarily a free safety. (MIKE DAVIS< MIKE MITCHELL< TYPE VET SIGNING. WAS DEPENDABLE)

 

 

Dear God….   That’s some spectacular hate on full display for all to see.   
 

Not sure you realize there’s a different point of view on most of your views.  Your viewpoints are opinions, not facts.  
 

You're a very smart guy, but we see a lot quite differently. 

[CR91]

Anyone else find it weird that Khari Willis has been retired since 2022 and we still haven't found a replacement?

[RollerColt]

11 minutes ago, CR91 said:

Anyone else find it weird that Khari Willis has been retired since 2022 and we still haven't found a replacement?

I find it weird how fast the time went by between Willis retiring to now… 2022… 

 

I think I need to get back to sitting on the porch, picking my 6 string and watching clouds pass by. Life is going by too fast.

[ProblChld32]

8 hours ago, krunk said:

Blackmon to FS is probably the best thing to do. Harrison at SS which is where he is experienced. Both of them you can trust will be where they are supposed  to be.They say during the season they had been playing Cross at Nickel when they played 3 safeties.

I think if we don’t bring in a Vet safety that this is the most probable solution tbh. 

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Dear God….   That’s some spectacular hate on full display for all to see.   
 

Not sure you realize there’s a different point of view on most of your views.  Your viewpoints are opinions, not facts.  
 

You're a very smart guy, but we see a lot quite differently. 

A lot of people like to frame their opinions as fact when they are just that an opinion.  I have no clue what’s going to happen with the secondary.  I am very skeptical about Ballard’s approach to free safety but just because I am skeptical doesn’t mean it’s a fact it won’t work.  Frankly I hope what Ballard does does work because that’s good for the Colts and I’ll take that anytime over being right.  

[Hoose]

7 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

A lot of people like to frame their opinions as fact when they are just that an opinion.  I have no clue what’s going to happen with the secondary.  I am very skeptical about Ballard’s approach to free safety but just because I am skeptical doesn’t mean it’s a fact it won’t work.  Frankly I hope what Ballard does does work because that’s good for the Colts and I’ll take that anytime over being right.  

Well said. 

[NewColtsFan]

6 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

A lot of people like to frame their opinions as fact when they are just that an opinion.  I have no clue what’s going to happen with the secondary.  I am very skeptical about Ballard’s approach to free safety but just because I am skeptical doesn’t mean it’s a fact it won’t work.  Frankly I hope what Ballard does does work because that’s good for the Colts and I’ll take that anytime over being right.  

In my 12+ years here, I’m sure I’ve been guilty of stating my opinion as fact.  I’ve tried to learn from my mistakes and do that less and less over the years. 
 

Im also on record as hoping Ballard signs either Simmons or Diggs, but I’m willing to wait 4 more weeks before push comes to shove.   I don’t want to read posts all season long wondering why Ballard did nothing to improve the secondary. 
 

And agree 1000 percent, I’d always rather be wrong if it means things are better for the Colts.   Always, always.   

[w87r]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Dear God….   That’s some spectacular hate on full display for all to see.   
 

Not sure you realize there’s a different point of view on most of your views.  Your viewpoints are opinions, not facts.  
 

You're a very smart guy, but we see a lot quite differently. 

I thought it was curious, that Rush was the only CB listed, on the drafted list from last year?

 

What about Brents and Jones? 

 

Truth be told, there has been a lot of good FA pickups and draft picks, in the secondary. Just because a guy is depth, doesn't make him a bad pickup. Those can definitely be easily distinguished, imo.

 

Gambling suspension doesn't change the talent evaluation (Rodgers)

Player retiring to pursue religious path, doesn't change the talent evaluation (Willis)

Couple big injuries to slow down start of your career, then go elsewhere and revive career, doesn't change the talent evaluation (Hooker)

 

 

They were still good players and good evaluations.

 

Kind of a confusing take looking back at it? Guess I need to go back and see if I'm missing something? I was thinking it was more of a argument against Ballard bringing in good secondary talent? When laid out, and even self admitted  by ( @AKB ) good pickups seem to outweigh the bad pick ups on the original list.?

 

CBs listed: (my opinion on them)

---Draft Picks:

1. **2017** - **Quincy Wilson** (2nd round, 46th overall) - I'll give them, this one 

3. **2019** - **Rock Ya-Sin** (2nd round, 34th overall) - Solid player here

2. **2020** - **Isaiah Rodgers** (6th round, 211th overall) - great pick

4. **2020** - **Julian Blackmon** (3rd round, 85th overall) - Not a CB, but was listed as both in draft, either way good pick, will count him towards safety though 

5. **2021** - **Kenny Moore II** (Undrafted Free Agent) - Was actually a roster cut down waiver pickup, from NE.

6. **2022** - **Dallis Flowers** (Undrafted Free Agent) - solid UDFA

7. **2023** - **Darius Rush** (5th round, 138th overall) - bad pick 

 

---Free Agent Signings:

1. **2017** - **Nate Hairston** (Undrafted Free Agent) - 

2. **2018** - **Pierre Desir** (Free Agent from the Cleveland Browns)

3. **2020** - **T.J. Carrie** (Free Agent from the Cleveland Browns)

4. **2021** - **Xavier Rhodes** (Free Agent, former Pro Bowl cornerback from the Minnesota Vikings)

5. **2022** - **Brandon Facyson** (Free Agent from the Las Vegas Raiders) 

6. **2022** - Stephon Gilmore (Trade with the Carolina Panthers)

 

2/7 CBs draft pick list(Brents and Jones aren't?) can be listed as bad picks. 

3/7 CBs draft pick list - shouldn't be on the draft pick list(Blackmon(S), Moore(waiver pickup), Flowers(Free Agent)

 

1/6 CB FA pickup list, can be listed as bad pickup(Facyson). Hairston was fine as an UDFA. The rest played fine and definitely can't go down as back pickups. 

 

So with my adjustments, I will go:(moved players to appropriate list)

2/7 CBs drafted can be listed as bad picks(Wilson,Rush)(added Jones, Brents)(71.4% hit rate)

1/8 CB FA pickups can go down as bad(Facyson)(added Moore, Flowers)(87.5% hit rate)

 

S listed:(my opinion on them)

Draft Picks:

2017 - Malik Hooker (1st round, 15th overall) - Primarily a free safety. Good pick

2019 - Khari Willis (4th round, 135th overall) - Primarily a strong safety. Great pick

2020 - Julian Blackmon (3rd round, 85th overall) - Primarily a free safety. Great pick

2021 - Shawn Davis (5th round, 160th overall) - Primarily a strong safety. Bad pick, still floating around league though

2022 - Nick Cross (3rd round, 96th overall) - Primarily a strong safety. (JURY STILL OUT) - Agreed(will continue to be, if he stays on the bench)

 

 

Free Agent Signings and Trades:

2017 - Matthias Farley (Free Agent from the New York Jets) - Primarily a strong safety. 

2018 - Mike Mitchell (Free Agent, retired before the season started) - Briefly signed but did not play for the Colts. 

2021 - Andrew Sendejo (Free Agent from the Minnesota Vikings) - Primarily a strong safety. 

2021 - George Odum (Free Agent from the San Francisco 49ers) - Primarily a strong safety/special teams contributor. We signed him and he left for SF.

2022 - Rodney McLeod (Free Agent from the Philadelphia Eagles) - Primarily a free safety. 

 

1/4 safeties drafted can be listed as bad pick (Davis)

1 safety the jury is still out 

1/5 safeties signed/traded can be listed as bad signing (Farley), but even it wasn't a bad low $ signing.

 

George Odum left us and went to SF, not the other way around. I know, not your list, just addressing some things here. (2 time All-Pro(SpT) (1 - 1st team) during Colts tenure. Still should be on the list but his accomplishments as an UDFA here, makes him not appear on the bad acquisition list.

 

 

There will be solid veteran Safety options available, now through the end of the season, if need be. I wouldn't mind bringing in Simmons or Diggs, but I'm good with not bringing them in as well. Seeing what these young guys can do early. If we need to make a move later, something will be available.

 

 

 

How I see it, any money spent now, is like double the cost, or more, one way or another.

 

Whatever we spend now, will take cap away this year and next. If a multiple year deal it will be like 3x the money by end of next year.

 

Let me explain my thoughts.

 

1yr deal - Let's say $8m(get Diggs or Simmons)

 

$8m off cap this year

$8m less rollover for next year.(And player gone)

 

It's not really 2x, but it kinda works out like that.

 

2yr deal - Let's say flat $8m both year

 

$8m off cap this year

$8m less rollover for next year 

$8m off cap next year 

 

Again, it's not really 3x, but kinda works like it.

 

 

Rollover is standard procedure, and works like this on most contracts. Just at this point with a full roster, I think it will take some real bad play/ or big injury, for Ballard to jeopardize the cap space we've set ourselves up with next year, and make a move.

 

 

Currently we have:

2024 Cap Space: $24,879,509(Spotrac)

 

2025 Cap Space: $30,623,076(Spotrac)* no roll over included

 

 

If we don't make any more big moves($2m+)/or player extensions, we will probably end up somewhere around $18m in cap space to roll over next year. By the time we go to top 53 roster, Practice Squad, any other IR injuries and some in season spending.

 

So add that to current 2025 Cap Space: $48.6m(new cap space), again that's with no big moves.

 

 

Now say we spend that $8m, plus all the other things from above, that leaves us with $10m in roll over. 2025 Cap Space: $40.6m.(player gone)

 

Now let's say, we sign them to a 2 year deal.

 

$10m rollover

-$8m 2025 cap hit

+2m 

 

2025 Cap Space: $32.6m($16m less than we would have, without signing them)

 

 

Again, this is how all Contracts affect the following season, I'm just seeing how it could affect our cap next year($48.6m to potentially $32.6m). Now we could off set some of this by capitalizing on Mo's almost $6m cap we could clear 

 

 

Sorry, long meandering post is over now.

 

[AKB]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Dear God….   That’s some spectacular hate on full display for all to see.   
 

Not sure you realize there’s a different point of view on most of your views.  Your viewpoints are opinions, not facts.  
 

You're a very smart guy, but we see a lot quite differently. 

great, nothing new here. 

 

[AKB]

@w87r

 

So, let's not derail this and make it a ballard thread, because we know how that goes. But I will respond to a couple of your questions, and then move on. 

 

What about Brents and Jones?  

I just forgot to throw them at the bottom. Every other guy's fate is known, so I was posting that. We could add them at the bottom, but the jury is out on both.  Cross could almost fit into that group.. but even ballard is on record saying he needs more consistency. I think with more discipline Cross could honestly develop into something special. 

 

Kind of a confusing take looking back at it? Guess I need to go back and see if I'm missing something? I was thinking it was more of a argument against Ballard bringing in good secondary talent? When laid out, and even self admitted  by ( @AKB ) good pickups seem to outweigh the bad pick ups on the original list.? 

 

origian post - first line "maybe he's just not that good at dealing with safety or secondaries in general.  (I might be off by like a year on one or two)"(overall success percentage vs pass)

 

tjhe best corners we've had are all from other teams. Rhodes, Gilmore, Moore. I give him more credit for moore because of how young he was. As for Rock ya sin, he traded him away for a pass rusher who got most of his sacks with us in garbage time. Of course, my opinion. Going back I would prefer to keep Rock than get Yannick. The issue we have with our secondary honestly probably started there. 

 

As for Rodgers, sure. I was a big fan of him. Athletic freak, and a great returner. I'm not blaming Ballard for every single player's fate on that list. I simply listed it out, from my perspective.

 

George Odum - I acknowledge he was a great teamer. but how great of a safety was he? the main point is that he saw playing time because we had no one better. And if we saw him as a starting safety we would have given him more than what you pay a gunner. which we didn't, because we saw him as a teamer, not a starter. 

 

In conclusion, my point is that we have yet to have a unit of secondary. It's always been a hodge podge from Pierre Desir, Hairston, and Carrie, to Facyson - you can call them depth but all of them played significant time. You can call George Odum depth, but he played significant time.  (Rock, Moore, and Rodgers the closest we came to a 'unit')

 

If you like it, great. I think it is subpar and has been. 

 

 

We did have a three year stint (19-21) where our secondary was on the edge of top 10 for about 3 years in a row. so I'm not oblivious to some of the success he has had. but right now, is probably the worst state we've been in, and looking back over the years paints the picture clear. 

Here's some more numbers 

 

### **Pass Yards Allowed**
- **2017**: 21st
- **2018**: 24th
- **2019**: 7th
- **2020**: 11th
- **2021**: 10th
- **2022**: 18th
- **2023**: 29th

 

### **Pass Defense Efficiency (Opponent Passer Rating Allowed)**
- **2017**: 18th
- **2018**: 20th
- **2019**: 5th
- **2020**: 11th
- **2021**: 10th
- **2022**: 20th
- **2023**: 30th

 

### **Interceptions**
- **2017**: 30th (7 interceptions)
- **2018**: 28th (8 interceptions)
- **2019**: 9th (15 interceptions)
- **2020**: 15th (12 interceptions)
- **2021**: 13th (15 interceptions)
- **2022**: 27th (9 interceptions)
- **2023**: 31st (6 interceptions)

 

### **Completion Percentage Allowed**
- **2017**: 25th
- **2018**: 23rd
- **2019**: 7th
- **2020**: 14th
- **2021**: 10th
- **2022**: 16th
- **2023**: 30th

 

 

You can run the numbers yourself, and average out its about 17th best across all categories. (sounds like ballards .500 MO) If defense wins championships, I guess it makes sense we haven't won the division since he's been here.  Until something changes, this is the reality. 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TLDR: Ballard mismanaged the secondary starting with not extending Rock-ya-sin and our secondary last year was worse than when he took over. We are likely to see similar struggles this season. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[AKB]

Ya-Sin was acquired by the Raiders ahead of the 2022 season - correlated to the downtrend starting with 2022, into 2023. 

[holeymoley99]

If we do move Blackmon to FS nothing to stop us from inserting Carliles at the ss if needed, played there plenty in college. As many have had similar to Harrison and is faster and stronger. Seems to be turning heads since drafted. 

[krunk]

2 hours ago, holeymoley99 said:

If we do move Blackmon to FS nothing to stop us from inserting Carliles at the ss if needed, played there plenty in college. As many have had similar to Harrison and is faster and stronger. Seems to be turning heads since drafted. 

Carlies is the Will LB now as far as I've been made aware of.  Same position as Darius Leonard. 

Harrison runs about a 4.6, but since we run a bunch of zone instead of man that would help him 

out quite a bit..  Harrison showed a nose for the football and I think they trust him mentally.  Along with

that he's played big time college football at the position.  I could be wrong but I think a lot of our problem 

on the back end has been guys not being in the right place, guys not executing the defense properly.  The coaching

staff has said in videos "We need some consistency back there".  I hear them say things about guys who can be trusted.

In my opinion most of that is dealing with decision making and execution.  Im not sure if we really have a talent problem

back there more than we had issues with guys doing things the right way.  I think if you tighten that up, then you improve

the defense quite a bit.  Blackmon and Harrison I think could accomplish that if we go that route.  Everything is still playing out though. 

[holeymoley99]

36 minutes ago, krunk said:

Carlies is the Will LB now as far as I've been made aware of.  Same position as Darius Leonard. 

Harrison runs about a 4.6, but since we run a bunch of zone instead of man that would help him 

out quite a bit..  Harrison showed a nose for the football and I think they trust him mentally.  Along with

that he's played big time college football at the position.  I could be wrong but I think a lot of our problem 

on the back end has been guys not being in the right place, guys not executing the defense properly.  The coaching

staff has said in videos "We need some consistency back there".  I hear them say things about guys who can be trusted.

In my opinion most of that is dealing with decision making and execution.  Im not sure if we really have a talent problem

back there more than we had issues with guys doing things the right way.  I think if you tighten that up, then you improve

the defense quite a bit.  Blackmon and Harrison I think could accomplish that if we go that route.  Everything is still playing out though. 

Ive always liked Harrison's nose for the ball and thought he played very well once moved to LB last season because he was quick for a lb as opposed to a Safety. Carlies was brought in with the intention of pushing Harrison for the WILL spot and he seems to have secured that currently with Harrison moved back to Safety, kid seems very adaptable and we didn't use the WILL very often last year. If they want him on the field more that is a route they could go if Blackmon stays at FS and not vet is brought in.  I agree a lot of issues on backend were missed assignments , guys didnt give up big plays on a fgake move or getting out battled guys were often no where near enough to make plays due to mistakes on coverage ans communication. We saw it often with Baker early, Rodney Thomas throughout and some with Cross late. Harrison would minimize those mistakes and Im sure that has played in to the current move. 

[w87r]

9 hours ago, AKB said:

What about Brents and Jones?  

I just forgot to throw them at the bottom. Every other guy's fate is known, so I was posting that. We could add them at the bottom, but the jury is out on both.  Cross could almost fit into that group.. but even ballard is on record saying he needs more consistency. I think with more discipline Cross could honestly develop into something special.

First off, thanks for the response.

 

 

I figured this was the case. Actually, tbh, I thought at first you might of left them off to help support the list, but could tell you were just going off the top of the head.

 

Fair response to all 3.

 

Jones and Brents will no doubt get their chance to prove it.

 

Just hoping Cross will get the same chance too, if it doesn't work, pull the plug, there will be other answers. I really think that is why Ballard is holding off currently on a Diggs/ Simmons (if he even is, could be the players). Still think back to Diggs social media comments earlier in the off-season. Could still happen.

 

When Cross played last year he actually graded out as our highest graded safety. I just want to see him get the chance. Bradley can be stubborn(foreshadowing for later in post).

 

9 hours ago, AKB said:

origian post - first line "maybe he's just not that good at dealing with safety or secondaries in general.  (I might be off by like a year on one or two)"(overall success percentage vs pass)

That's what I figured, and tbh, never had time to go back and see if something preceded that. But your comments on most the players seemed to support a positive hit rate on players.

 

9 hours ago, AKB said:

the best corners we've had are all from other teams. Rhodes, Gilmore, Moore. I give him more credit for moore because of how young he was. As for Rock ya sin, he traded him away for a pass rusher who got most of his sacks with us in garbage time. Of course, my opinion. Going back I would prefer to keep Rock than get Yannick. The issue we have with our secondary honestly probably started there. 

 

I agree on the Moore take, it was clear Ballard had his eye on him when NE picked him up, the subsequently waived at cut down.

 

I don't mind the Rock for Yannick trade. Rock was a solid contributor here. However we were able to pickup a pass rusher who had never had under 8 sacks in a season, and we could pick up CB replacement in FA(Rhodes). I'm fine with the trade, and Ngakoue had 9.5 sacks for us, regardless of when it was. Did he have weakness in run game? No doubt.

 

9 hours ago, AKB said:

Ya-Sin was acquired by the Raiders ahead of the 2022 season - correlated to the downtrend starting with 2022, into 2023. 

Wouldn't you say this would make it a good move to trade him?

 

Actually I read that wrong, but want to leave my point to counter it.

 

I was referring to Rock's downfall after trade, not Colts defense downward trend. Will address that in a few.

 

9 hours ago, AKB said:

As for Rodgers, sure. I was a big fan of him. Athletic freak, and a great returner. I'm not blaming Ballard for every single player's fate on that list. I simply listed it out, from my perspective.

 

George Odum - I acknowledge he was a great teamer. but how great of a safety was he? the main point is that he saw playing time because we had no one better. And if we saw him as a starting safety we would have given him more than what you pay a gunner. which we didn't, because we saw him as a teamer, not a starter. 

 

In conclusion, my point is that we have yet to have a unit of secondary. It's always been a hodge podge from Pierre Desir, Hairston, and Carrie, to Facyson - you can call them depth but all of them played significant time. You can call George Odum depth, but he played significant time.  (Rock, Moore, and Rodgers the closest we came to a 'unit')

Rodgers was more than a great returner, he graded out a top 10 CB in 2022 and was supposed to ascend even greater last year, before he made a bad bet or few. Pun intended.

 

As far as Odum, I don't think I said he was good depth? I said some of the acquisitions were good depth and should be judged that way. Didn't really single anyone out. But here is Odum's snap counts for the Colts, I would say that is the definition of depth.

 

 

I know you acknowledged his SPT, and that was all it pretty much was. The team gave him a shot in the secondary in 2021 to play a little more, after he made 1st team All Pro(SPT) in 2020. 

 

I'm saying there is no way Odum being signed as an UDFA could be a bad move. More later.

 

9 hours ago, AKB said:

If you like it, great. I think it is subpar and has been

 

Here's the thing with the players, you have the bigger names like Gilmore (great signing), Rhodes(good signing, played well here till he got hurt). 

 

Then you have the Carrie's, just brought in to be a backup CB, he started 3 games here in 2 years, but he was a fine backup.

 

UDFA that make teams are not bad moves. 

 

My point is I am judging these moves individually, and can I lay 3/15 CB moves listed(added in Brents+Jones) can be considered a bad move.

 

2/11 S moves can be considered back moves.

 

With a few , TBD, on both list.

 

9 hours ago, AKB said:

We did have a three year stint (19-21) where our secondary was on the edge of top 10 for about 3 years in a row. so I'm not oblivious to some of the success he has had. but right now, is probably the worst state we've been in, and looking back over the years paints the picture clear. 

Here's some more numbers 

 

### **Pass Yards Allowed**
- **2017**: 21st
- **2018**: 24th
- **2019**: 7th
- **2020**: 11th
- **2021**: 10th
- **2022**: 18th
- **2023**: 29th

 

### **Pass Defense Efficiency (Opponent Passer Rating Allowed)**
- **2017**: 18th
- **2018**: 20th
- **2019**: 5th
- **2020**: 11th
- **2021**: 10th
- **2022**: 20th
- **2023**: 30th

 

### **Interceptions**
- **2017**: 30th (7 interceptions)
- **2018**: 28th (8 interceptions)
- **2019**: 9th (15 interceptions)
- **2020**: 15th (12 interceptions)
- **2021**: 13th (15 interceptions)
- **2022**: 27th (9 interceptions)
- **2023**: 31st (6 interceptions)

 

### **Completion Percentage Allowed**
- **2017**: 25th
- **2018**: 23rd
- **2019**: 7th
- **2020**: 14th
- **2021**: 10th
- **2022**: 16th
- **2023**: 30th

 

 

You can run the numbers yourself, and average out its about 17th best across all categories. (sounds like ballards .500 MO) If defense wins championships, I guess it makes sense we haven't won the division since he's been here.  Until something changes, this is the reality. 

Will say a few things about this. I don't even look at 2017 numbers, that was a lost season with a coach that was getting fired. 2018 was growing year with new coordinator. Then 3 seasons of good ball, lead to...

 

Couple other things to mention, you can correlate the defense taking a drop to Rock leaving(as wild as that sounds), or you can observe the other (2) things that happened in 2022.

1. Eburflus left to coach Bears

2. Predictable Gus was brought in 

 

 

 

 Which bring us to the underlying problem, until Gus is able to get over his stubbornness and be a little less predictable, our defense will have issues. 

 

 

 

Anyway, appreciate the talking points 

 

 

Edit: can continue somewhere else if need be? Don't want to detail training camp thread with this aspect of it.

 

 

Now the signing/ not signing aspect is good I suppose? 

[ColtStrong2013]

10 hours ago, AKB said:

We did have a three year stint (19-21) where our secondary was on the edge of top 10 for about 3 years in a row

 

10 hours ago, AKB said:

You can run the numbers yourself, and average out its about 17th best across all categories. (sounds like ballards .500 MO) If defense wins championships, I guess it makes sense we haven't won the division since he's been here.  Until something changes, this is the reality

this is a strange sequence don’t you think? 
 

on one hand, I’m going to admit that there three straight years of championship caliber defensive secondary play… on the other, im going to mix those 3 years in with the rest to paint a picture that the reason we haven’t won a championship under Ballard is because of defense. 
 

we know why we didn’t win a championship those years… And they were the years to make noise. 
 

[wig]

17 hours ago, Solid84 said:

 At this point I just don't think Simmons wants to play here or he wants more than Ballard wants to pay - both are likely.

 

 

 

 

As opposed to every other team he hasn't signed with as well? 

[DattMavis]

17 hours ago, CR91 said:

Latu sounds like the real deal. I'm hoping he sacks C.J week 1 and is a recurring theme for the next 10 years

I won't wish injuries on anyone, but I hope Laiatu gets in his head so badly that his career falls off a cliff. 😅

Texans fans are becoming insufferable.

[Dingus McGirt]

4 minutes ago, DattMavis said:

I won't wish injuries on anyone, but I hope Laiatu gets in his head so badly that his career falls off a cliff. 😅

Texans fans are becoming insufferable.

Nah.  They've always been that way.

[AKB]

2 hours ago, w87r said:

First off, thanks for the response.

 

 

I figured this was the case. Actually, tbh, I thought at first you might of left them off to help support the list, but could tell you were just going off the top of the head.

 

Fair response to all 3.

 

Jones and Brents will no doubt get their chance to prove it.

 

Just hoping Cross will get the same chance too, if it doesn't work, pull the plug, there will be other answers. I really think that is why Ballard is holding off currently on a Diggs/ Simmons (if he even is, could be the players). Still think back to Diggs social media comments earlier in the off-season. Could still happen.

 

When Cross played last year he actually graded out as our highest graded safety. I just want to see him get the chance. Bradley can be stubborn(foreshadowing for later in post).

 

That's what I figured, and tbh, never had time to go back and see if something preceded that. But your comments on most the players seemed to support a positive hit rate on players.

 

 

I agree on the Moore take, it was clear Ballard had his eye on him when NE picked him up, the subsequently waived at cut down.

 

I don't mind the Rock for Yannick trade. Rock was a solid contributor here. However we were able to pickup a pass rusher who had never had under 8 sacks in a season, and we could pick up CB replacement in FA(Rhodes). I'm fine with the trade, and Ngakoue had 9.5 sacks for us, regardless of when it was. Did he have weakness in run game? No doubt.

 

Wouldn't you say this would make it a good move to trade him?

 

Actually I read that wrong, but want to leave my point to counter it.

 

I was referring to Rock's downfall after trade, not Colts defense downward trend. Will address that in a few.

 

Rodgers was more than a great returner, he graded out a top 10 CB in 2022 and was supposed to ascend even greater last year, before he made a bad bet or few. Pun intended.

 

As far as Odum, I don't think I said he was good depth? I said some of the acquisitions were good depth and should be judged that way. Didn't really single anyone out. But here is Odum's snap counts for the Colts, I would say that is the definition of depth.

 

 

I know you acknowledged his SPT, and that was all it pretty much was. The team gave him a shot in the secondary in 2021 to play a little more, after he made 1st team All Pro(SPT) in 2020. 

 

I'm saying there is no way Odum being signed as an UDFA could be a bad move. More later.

 

 

Here's the thing with the players, you have the bigger names like Gilmore (great signing), Rhodes(good signing, played well here till he got hurt). 

 

Then you have the Carrie's, just brought in to be a backup CB, he started 3 games here in 2 years, but he was a fine backup.

 

UDFA that make teams are not bad moves. 

 

My point is I am judging these moves individually, and can I lay 3/15 CB moves listed(added in Brents+Jones) can be considered a bad move.

 

2/11 S moves can be considered back moves.

 

With a few , TBD, on both list.

 

Will say a few things about this. I don't even look at 2017 numbers, that was a lost season with a coach that was getting fired. 2018 was growing year with new coordinator. Then 3 seasons of good ball, lead to...

 

Couple other things to mention, you can correlate the defense taking a drop to Rock leaving(as wild as that sounds), or you can observe the other (2) things that happened in 2022.

1. Eburflus left to coach Bears

2. Predictable Gus was brought in 

 

 

 

 Which bring us to the underlying problem, until Gus is able to get over his stubbornness and be a little less predictable, our defense will have issues. 

 

 

 

Anyway, appreciate the talking points 

 

 

Edit: can continue somewhere else if need be? Don't want to detail training camp thread with this aspect of it.

 

 

Now the signing/ not signing aspect is good I suppose? 

quality response. maybe we can pick it up in a Ballard thread some other time. quality post 87

 

we agree on more than we disagree, that I know after reading your thoughts. Rock was a solid tackling corner for us. And yes I agree Rodgers is probably the best overall corner Ballard has drafted. 

 

you do make a great point about Gus taking over and the correlation. that's probably the best counterpoint and it's something I'll have to go back and watch. you were right that a lot of that post is off the top of my head, and some of it has a bias, 

 

the quickest and most obvious counter argument is if Gus is to blame... why did Shane keep him? Not only did he keep him his first year, but after going 29th he still isn't fired. 

What's the solution to that issue? 

 

off the top of my head, a couple come to mind 
1 - Shane isn't judging Gus based on the results on the field because he knows he's missing the talent to be successful

2 - Ballard is stubborn and still trying to create the legion of boom 2.0

 

Thanks for the post 87, would love to continue some other time

 

87 - I would be okay with you moving our conversation to a Ballard thread if you want. Maybe the thread created by @AustexColt

[joeb]

So the question is, what are we waiting for. Everyday I expect there to be a signing of either a cb or s. Maybe Ballard is just stubborn like that. I wonder if Steichen might be in his ear about this. I hope.

[AKB]

2 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

this is a strange sequence don’t you think? 
 

on one hand, I’m going to admit that there three straight years of championship caliber defensive secondary play… on the other, im going to mix those 3 years in with the rest to paint a picture that the reason we haven’t won a championship under Ballard is because of defense. 
 

we know why we didn’t win a championship those years… And they were the years to make noise. 
 

this is gonna turn into a ballard thread here soon if we aren't careful, but I don't want to ignore you. 

 

it's not strange to include points that don't necessarily align with my narrative. nor are you required by law to agree with my opinions. Howver, I'm gonna be fair and list out the success he has had, while complaining about his averageness.

 

i can't just list what I'm complaining about without acknowledging success. and this is gonna turn into an anti - ballard thread pretty soon here if we don't chill. 

if you want to know how I feel about it in one sentence. 
 

ballard has only ever had .500 results. including us having a good secondary, only about half the time. 50% is probably his favorite percentage. 

[CR91]

1 hour ago, DattMavis said:

I won't wish injuries on anyone, but I hope Laiatu gets in his head so badly that his career falls off a cliff. 😅

Texans fans are becoming insufferable.

 

I call them 2023 Jag hype delusional 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, CR91 said:

 

I call them 2023 Jag hype delusional 

The way the Texans are going all in this year reminds me of the Jags debacle when they did it the same way.

[cdgacoltsfan]

3 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

I call them 2023 Jag hype delusional 

Jag= Just a guy

[Solid84]

5 hours ago, wig said:

 

 

As opposed to every other team he hasn't signed with as well? 

Sure, but how many has as big a need as the Colts?

 

We're not looking for a solid vet, we're looking for an actual starter.

[CR91]

1 minute ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Jag= Just a guy

 

No. The team. The Jaguars were all sports media were talking about and they were hyping up Trevor Lawrence like their doing Stroud 

[Yoshinator]

22 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Sure, but how many has as big a need as the Colts?

 

We're not looking for a solid vet, we're looking for an actual starter.

Yep. I said during the draft that I was ok with not drafting any secondary help until day 3 as long as we signed a veteran to fill the role later on. We haven't done that yet. Also remember that Daniel Scott is out for the year again, making an already weak S group even weaker. Blackmon fills one spot, sure, but we need to fill the other S spot. Can't necessarily count on Cross at FS if Blackmon plays SS, and if Blackmon plays FS, you have to play Harrison at SS.

 

People can say that no one has really signed out of Simmons and Diggs yet, but there are 32 teams they could sign with, and when there's an injury to a contender, then Simmons or Diggs is most likely going to sign with that team. As I have said, it's a game of cat and mouse. Ballard has seen a week of training camp from the secondary. How much more of a sample size does he need before making a decision? Our leverage is we can offer a starting job to one of these guys. When an injury or two happens to another team, they'll have that same leverage over us as well as being able to offer a chance to win a SB potentially.

 

We need to strike while the iron is hot.

[NewColtsFan]

17 minutes ago, Yoshinator said:

Yep. I said during the draft that I was ok with not drafting any secondary help until day 3 as long as we signed a veteran to fill the role later on. We haven't done that yet. Also remember that Daniel Scott is out for the year again, making an already weak S group even weaker. Blackmon fills one spot, sure, but we need to fill the other S spot. Can't necessarily count on Cross at FS if Blackmon plays SS, and if Blackmon plays FS, you have to play Harrison at SS.

 

People can say that no one has really signed out of Simmons and Diggs yet, but there are 32 teams they could sign with, and when there's an injury to a contender, then Simmons or Diggs is most likely going to sign with that team. As I have said, it's a game of cat and mouse. Ballard has seen a week of training camp from the secondary. How much more of a sample size does he need before making a decision? Our leverage is we can offer a starting job to one of these guys. When an injury or two happens to another team, they'll have that same leverage over us as well as being able to offer a chance to win a SB potentially.

 

We need to strike while the iron is hot.

 

Odds are,  Ballard will use as much of the pre-season as they can.  Possibly all of August and right up to cut down day.  He’s going to give his kids as much opportunity as he can.  
 

Now, could that change if Simmons or Diggs are close to signing with another team?   Sure.  We’re all assuming (me included) that Ballard wants one of them, so one would think his agent will give the Colts a heads up call.  “My client is close to signing with another team.   Here’s how much he’d like to sign with you.”

 

And that might happen sooner than the end of the month.  Lots of moving pieces here.  But at least it would appear the Colts will have multiple options.  Can’t ask for much more than that.  

[Solid84]

26 minutes ago, Yoshinator said:

Yep. I said during the draft that I was ok with not drafting any secondary help until day 3 as long as we signed a veteran to fill the role later on. We haven't done that yet. Also remember that Daniel Scott is out for the year again, making an already weak S group even weaker. Blackmon fills one spot, sure, but we need to fill the other S spot. Can't necessarily count on Cross at FS if Blackmon plays SS, and if Blackmon plays FS, you have to play Harrison at SS.

 

People can say that no one has really signed out of Simmons and Diggs yet, but there are 32 teams they could sign with, and when there's an injury to a contender, then Simmons or Diggs is most likely going to sign with that team. As I have said, it's a game of cat and mouse. Ballard has seen a week of training camp from the secondary. How much more of a sample size does he need before making a decision? Our leverage is we can offer a starting job to one of these guys. When an injury or two happens to another team, they'll have that same leverage over us as well as being able to offer a chance to win a SB potentially.

 

We need to strike while the iron is hot.

I wanted the Colts to sign a veteran FS as well. I thought that was the better option than drafting because I feel we need some experience in the deep back-field.

 

Blackmon at FS is an option, but we're weakening SS to fix a hole at FS instead of fixing the hole at FS and keeping SS a strength of the defense. It's just a poor way of fixing this issue in my opinion.

 

I realise Simmons may just be out of our range for money reasons or he may not want to play here, but there are other good options (like Diggs). Also, Ballard said he feels you only get a real feel for your guys when they are in pads and the Colts have only been in pads twice so far. But, when the team is already experimenting with sliding Blackmon to FS isn't that sorta capitulating and saying "we don't have a real answer here"? Blackmon is a lot better as a SS than FS.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Training camp will be over soon and I expect we might see a move after. As long as diggs and Simmons are still sitting there with no team there is no hurry and we can continue to evaluate what we have. As long as Ballard is still connected with their agents I am not worried yet. 
 

it is robbing Peter to pay Paul by moving  Blackmon. A doesn’t really accomplish anything. These kind of moves  eventually catch up with a team.

[Hoose]

Maybe a better view of the confused state of the Colts’ safety position: moving Ronnie Harrison back to Safety. He was moved to LB because he wasn’t good enough at safety. Now he’s going back to safety to save the day? What does that tell you about the talent and depth at the position? 
 

If Ballard whiffs on the FS position again, it could be a fatal problem for the Colts’ D. You have two quality FS’s on the open market (which could change quickly) and plenty of cap space. The clock is ticking….