Indeees take on M Pittman

[Indeee]

First, I want to say that I'm not sure personally if I would pay Pittman what I have seen his projections to be. 20-24 million a year. Somewhere in-between those figures.

 

I like Pittman and i realize that he is our best option currently, I'm just not sure that kind of money warrants a WR2/possession guy. With that said though, the market just might warrant that, and Pittman just might fit that bill for the league and for the Colts.

 

What I believe needs to happen if the Colts really want to retain Pittman is that he needs to be franchise tagged. If he is allowed to test FA, with or without an offer from the Colts, the Colts will be put in a bidding war that we as a franchise does not need right now, and I think the biggest opponent for this is the Kansas City Chiefs.

 

I think the Chiefs would go after Higgins before Pittman; however, I'm reading that the Bengals will most likely tag Higgins. What type of Tag I don't know, but it seems he will be tagged. So that leaves Pittman.

 

Out of all the other 31 teams who still might make a play for Pittman, KC is the real threat here Imo. It makes too much sense for the Chiefs. Adding Pittman and throwing him in the mix with Kelce and Rice would supplant the Chiefs for more runs at more titles. 

 

So, in closing, unless Pittman really wants to stay here and take the Colts offer, if there is one, without testing the waters, he most assuredly needs to be tagged or I think he is gone. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Defjamz26]

I agree with tagging him. You can’t just let him walk for nothing and not have a clear upgrade ready.

[OhioColt]

16-18M APY for Pittman is really max imo.  Not in the same tier of players like Aiyuk that 22M+ would warrant. 
 

Most of our contracts for the team are reasonable.  Buckner could probably make an extra 2-3M extra a year.  While Q. Neslon should take a major pay cut.  My 2 cents on the dollar.  

[MikeCurtis]

IMHO, I dont think we have a choice 

 

We need a strong WR2....Pittman is dependable and reliable..... and needed

 

I WISH that he was explosive, but thats not his game

 

AND...... today we are down a WR1, Not signing Pittman to a contract would mean we would need TWO WRs 

 

The cost keeps rising on the players, we could tag him, but we are kicking the can down the road

 

We could play games with the salary cap with bonus, so his annual hit could be 18M or so in year 1

 

THEN we wait to see what we look like in 4 years, if we want to give him a 3rd contract

 

 

 

[MikeCurtis]

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

I agree with tagging him. You can’t just let him walk for nothing and not have a clear upgrade ready.

They may tag him, then work on a deal

[John Hammonds]

12 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

IMHO, I dont think we have a choice 

 

We need a strong WR2....Pittman is dependable and reliable..... and needed

 

I WISH that he was explosive, but thats not his game

 

AND...... today we are down a WR1, Not signing Pittman to a contract would mean we would need TWO WRs 

 

The cost keeps rising on the players, we could tag him, but we are kicking the can down the road

 

We could play games with the salary cap with bonus, so his annual hit could be 18M or so in year 1

 

THEN we wait to see what we look like in 4 years, if we want to give him a 3rd contract

 

 

 

I agree.

We're in a bit of a cleft stick of our own making.  As I've said before, Pittman isn't a Ferrari.  He's a Camaro.  He's a muscle car.  He catches the ball violently.  And you need that kind of person on your team.  But at what price?

 

I'm good with signing him to a reasonably high contract -- with a max length of three years.  Up until we have to deal with AR5's new contract / contract extension.

[MikeCurtis]

I think he is more of a suburban  than a camaro

 

 

Big and strong, take the kids to the beach, but wont be a dragster

 

 

WE MUST get a DRAGSTER for this offense 

 

 

[chad72]

Doing the non-exclusive tag would require any other team to pony up 2 first rounders. It ALSO gives Pittman the chance to feel what his market value is and bring it to Ballard so that Ballard can match, which the Colts will have a right with the non-exclusive tag. 

 

I feel Ballard will match what is offered market wise, but if another team wants to pony up 2 first rounders, I would take that in a heartbeat. The best way to find out is to start with that tag and let him give you legit numbers. That way, Ballard doesn't look like the one low balling him.

[chad72]

2 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I think he is more of a suburban  than a camaro

 

 

Big and strong, take the kids to the beach, but wont be a dragster

 

 

WE MUST get a DRAGSTER for this offense 

 

 

 

A reliable Kelce that is on the same page as Mahomes, and every team needs that. For a TE, it would be $18-20 mil., for a WR that is $20-23 mil.

[John Hammonds]

9 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

A reliable Kelce that is on the same page as Mahomes, and every team needs that. For a TE, it would be $18-20 mil., for a WR that is $20-23 mil.

Except Kelce is a go-to touchdown maker.  And Pittman, not so much.

[chad72]

50 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

Except Kelce is a go-to touchdown maker.  And Pittman, not so much.

 

TDs, like in fantasy, are not a reliable marker. Yards and receptions are. We have only 1 year of Steichen to evaluate and unfortunately most of it with Minshew. Minshew is not the type to gun it inside the 10 yard line or throw it up there for his WRs, so Steichen used RB catches in the flat, RB runs or RPO plays where Minshew can be the keeper (Browns game and other games) because of the squeezed zones.

 

Plus, 1 game without Pittman, we saw how there was no one to take the safety away and how it played out. Pittman has gotten 1082 yards and 6 TDs in 2021 with Wentz, 925 in a weak Matt Ryan year of 2022 with 4 TDs, and 1152 yards and 4 TDs in 2023 with MInshew primarily. Wentz got into trouble by throwing to Pittman too much because you would have realized he threw into double and triple coverage at times and sometimes he trusted Pittman too much while others were open. Just goes to show you the fact that the guy who got safety help from other teams in 2021, 2022 and 2023 was MPJ primarily to create that crowd.

 

When you don't have a 2nd WR that demands serious attention, red zone or not, it is easy to just play 1 on 1 vs everyone and roll your safety towards Pittman. One would also have to think that any QB worth his salt recognizes that and hands it off to his RB or looks for another open guy like a TE or RB if he is not handing off. He is not a CeeDee Lamb type of guy or JaMarr Chase type of guy but more like Tee Higgins who caught 5 TDs last year with a better floor for receptions and yards, making him a WR1.5, if there is such a thing, IMO. If Tee Higgins market value is close to $20 mil. per year, Pittman has to be slightly higher. 

 

Julio Jones, in his SB year for the Falcons in 2016, finished the 2016 season with 83 receptions on 129 targets for 1,409 yards and six touchdowns with a healthy MVP Matt Ryan in his prime. No one is dogging him for not catching enough TDs, are they? In fact, Julio hit double digit TDs only once in 2012, at 10. 

[Yoshinator]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

Doing the non-exclusive tag would require any other team to pony up 2 first rounders. It ALSO gives Pittman the chance to feel what his market value is and bring it to Ballard so that Ballard can match, which the Colts will have a right with the non-exclusive tag. 

 

I feel Ballard will match what is offered market wise, but if another team wants to pony up 2 first rounders, I would take that in a heartbeat. The best way to find out is to start with that tag and let him give you legit numbers. That way, Ballard doesn't look like the one low balling him.

Hypothetically, if the Chiefs gave up two 1st rounders (I think this has a possibility of happening if we apply the non-exclusive tag) I would do this in a heartbeat for Pittman. Pick 32 and a 1st next year would be great IMO.

[John Hammonds]

9 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

TDs, like in fantasy, are not a reliable marker. Yards and receptions are. We have only 1 year of Steichen to evaluate and unfortunately most of it with Minshew. Minshew is not the type to gun it inside the 10 yard line or throw it up there for his WRs, so Steichen used RB catches in the flat, RB runs or RPO plays where Minshew can be the keeper (Browns game and other games) because of the squeezed zones.

 

Plus, 1 game without Pittman, we saw how there was no one to take the safety away and how it played out. Pittman has gotten 1082 yards and 6 TDs in 2021 with Wentz, 925 in a weak Matt Ryan year of 2022 with 4 TDs, and 1152 yards and 4 TDs in 2023 with MInshew primarily. Wentz got into trouble by throwing to Pittman too much because you would have realized he threw into double and triple coverage at times and sometimes he trusted Pittman too much while others were open. Just goes to show you the fact that the guy who got safety help from other teams in 2021, 2022 and 2023 was MPJ primarily to create that crowd.

 

When you don't have a 2nd WR that demands serious attention, red zone or not, it is easy to just play 1 on 1 vs everyone and roll your safety towards Pittman. One would also have to think that any QB worth his salt recognizes that and hands it off to his RB or looks for another open guy like a TE or RB if he is not handing off. He is not a CeeDee Lamb type of guy or JaMarr Chase type of guy but more like Tee Higgins who caught 5 TDs last year with a better floor for receptions and yards, making him a WR1.5, if there is such a thing, IMO. If Tee Higgins market value is close to $20 mil. per year, Pittman has to be slightly higher. 

 

Julio Jones, in his SB year for the Falcons in 2016, finished the 2016 season with 83 receptions on 129 targets for 1,409 yards and six touchdowns with a healthy MVP Matt Ryan in his prime. No one is dogging him for not catching enough TDs, are they? In fact, Julio hit double digit TDs only once in 2012, at 10. 

You can also make the argument that with a player like Jonathan Taylor, you make your touchdowns by running them, rather than by throwing them.  Pittman doesn't have the TD's because they didn't do them By Plan.

Jonathan Taylor = 40 TDs

Michael Pittman = 15 TDs

[chad72]

10 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

You can also make the argument that with a player like Jonathan Taylor, you make your touchdowns by running them, rather than by throwing them.  Pittman doesn't have the TD's because they didn't do them By Plan.

Jonathan Taylor = 40 TDs

Michael Pittman = 15 TDs

 

True. Under Frank Reich, it felt like we played ahead, we won because JT had a monster 2021 year. Then in 2023, Zach Moss and his contract holdout set a few things back and we should see more JT production this year. I think JT is the guy we have featured under Reich and might still do so with Steichen.

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

Doing the non-exclusive tag would require any other team to pony up 2 first rounders. It ALSO gives Pittman the chance to feel what his market value is and bring it to Ballard so that Ballard can match, which the Colts will have a right with the non-exclusive tag. 

 

I feel Ballard will match what is offered market wise, but if another team wants to pony up 2 first rounders, I would take that in a heartbeat. The best way to find out is to start with that tag and let him give you legit numbers. That way, Ballard doesn't look like the one low balling him.

If I’m a GM there is no way I’m negotiating with Pittman knowing I will have to give up two 1st rd picks for what amounts to be a good WR2.  Makes no sense.  There will be other FA receivers out there without the tag and you have the draft as well.  I wouldn’t take the time to bother negotiating with the non-exclusive tag.  I would for a Josh Allen or Brian Burns though.  Or a WR1 in their prime.  No one here wants to pay Pittman 22-25m dollars.  Do people really think another team will do it and give up two 1st rd picks to boot?  I don’t.  Like I said I wouldn’t waste my time so Pittman can go back to the Colts with a number.  Makes no sense.  Even if the compensation was one 1st rd pick the odds are extremely high the Colts will match so why bother.  Why help the Colts out?  Makes no sense.

[chad72]

8 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

If I’m a GM there is no way I’m negotiating with Pittman knowing I will have to give up two 1st rd picks for what amounts to be a good WR2.  Makes no sense.  There will be other FA receivers out there without the tag and you have the draft as well.  I wouldn’t take the time to bother negotiating with the non-exclusive tag.  I would for a Josh Allen or Brian Burns though.  Or a WR1 in their prime.  No one here wants to pay Pittman 22-25m dollars.  Do people really think another team will do it and give up two 1st rd picks to boot?  I don’t.  Like I said I wouldn’t waste my time so Pittman can go back to the Colts with a number.  Makes no sense.  Even if the compensation was one 1st rd pick the odds are extremely high the Colts will match so why bother.  Why help the Colts out?  Makes no sense.

 

I agree.

 

1 hour ago, Yoshinator said:

Hypothetically, if the Chiefs gave up two 1st rounders (I think this has a possibility of happening if we apply the non-exclusive tag) I would do this in a heartbeat for Pittman. Pick 32 and a 1st next year would be great IMO.

 

Not in a WR deep draft class. No reason to part with 2 first rounders for who most consider a WR1.5/WR2, it is not Tyreek Hill or DaVante Adams or CeeDee Lamb or JaMarr Chase that may be worth that. You just had the Chiefs win 2 SBs without Tyreek Hill man, just think about it. It is very unrealistic someone gives up 2 1st rounders for any WR, it will only be for a QB.

[MikeCurtis]

14 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I agree.

 

 

Not in a WR deep draft class. No reason to part with 2 first rounders for who most consider a WR1.5/WR2, it is not Tyreek Hill or DaVante Adams or CeeDee Lamb or JaMarr Chase that may be worth that. You just had the Chiefs win 2 SBs without Tyreek Hill man, just think about it. It is very unrealistic someone gives up 2 1st rounders for any WR, it will only be for a QB.

I would agree with that

 

We are probably going to pay Pittman

 

IMHO, we wouldnt want to also pay another WR near that much... at the same time

 

I would rather use our limited cash toward a DE (And maybe a FS)

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

TDs, like in fantasy, are not a reliable marker. Yards and receptions are. We have only 1 year of Steichen to evaluate and unfortunately most of it with Minshew. Minshew is not the type to gun it inside the 10 yard line or throw it up there for his WRs, so Steichen used RB catches in the flat, RB runs or RPO plays where Minshew can be the keeper (Browns game and other games) because of the squeezed zones.

 

Plus, 1 game without Pittman, we saw how there was no one to take the safety away and how it played out. Pittman has gotten 1082 yards and 6 TDs in 2021 with Wentz, 925 in a weak Matt Ryan year of 2022 with 4 TDs, and 1152 yards and 4 TDs in 2023 with MInshew primarily. Wentz got into trouble by throwing to Pittman too much because you would have realized he threw into double and triple coverage at times and sometimes he trusted Pittman too much while others were open. Just goes to show you the fact that the guy who got safety help from other teams in 2021, 2022 and 2023 was MPJ primarily to create that crowd.

 

When you don't have a 2nd WR that demands serious attention, red zone or not, it is easy to just play 1 on 1 vs everyone and roll your safety towards Pittman. One would also have to think that any QB worth his salt recognizes that and hands it off to his RB or looks for another open guy like a TE or RB if he is not handing off. He is not a CeeDee Lamb type of guy or JaMarr Chase type of guy but more like Tee Higgins who caught 5 TDs last year with a better floor for receptions and yards, making him a WR1.5, if there is such a thing, IMO. If Tee Higgins market value is close to $20 mil. per year, Pittman has to be slightly higher. 

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded.

 

Pittman has 15 total TDs in his career. That's not enough from your WR1. Also, Yards and Receptions are just a product of targets and Pittman gets by far the most targets on this team and all he gets us is 15 TDs?

 

Pittman gets the grunt work. He's not flashy. He doesn't make guys miss.

 

Don't get me wrong I want Pittman on the team and I recognize Pittman has been really unfortunate with QBs, but so have several other guys in the league and they have still produced. We absolutely need a guy the opponents need to scheme around.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded.

 

Pittman has 15 total TDs in his career. That's not enough from your WR1. Also, Yards and Receptions are just a product of targets and Pittman gets by far the most targets on this team and all he gets us is 15 TDs?

 

Pittman gets the grunt work. He's not flashy. He doesn't make guys miss.

 

Don't get me wrong I want Pittman on the team and I recognize Pittman has been really unfortunate with QBs, but so have several other guys in the league and they have still produced. We absolutely need a guy the opponents need to scheme around.

 

Our WR1 doesn't have to be everyone else's WR1, and we are not paying him like an elite WR1 in the $25-30 mil., so it will settle around $20-23 mil. based on market value. We know he is WR1.5/WR2 ball park. 

 

For example, Doug Baldwin and Javon Kearse/Golden Tate that the Seahawks had, they wouldn't be WR1 and WR2 respectively on every team but with Marshawn Lynch and their OL and RPO driven Russell Wilson being the key ways they move their chains, those WRs were enough to move the chains even if Baldwin was WR2 type for other teams. Our modus operandi operates similarly with AR, RPOs and JT and any play action and passing lanes opened up because of those. I am thinking that is the true reasoning behind the Colts being fine with Pittman leading the show. That is also the reason where they got the short quick separation guy in Josh Downs. 

 

Yes, we need another guy we have to groom from the draft with a ceiling better than Pittman, if we can get one, but I don't see another young WR in FA like Pittman, Tee Higgins is a push, IMO, that benefits from a guy like Chase. I don't think Pittman has benefited from anything truly, with most of the safeties rolled towards him in obvious passing situations and he is not Chase or CeeDee Lamb to get open or box out. I told you even Julio Jones has had only 1 year with 10 TDs, I think folks are getting carried away by what we do with the end zone with limited weapons. Steichen is a step above Reich in scheming things, but still not Andy Reid level. We will see how it plays out.

[richard pallo]

25 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Our WR1 doesn't have to be everyone else's WR1, and we are not paying him like an elite WR1 in the $25-30 mil., so it will settle around $20-23 mil. based on market value. We know he is WR1.5/WR2 ball park. 

 

For example, Doug Baldwin and Javon Kearse/Golden Tate that the Seahawks had, they wouldn't be WR1 and WR2 respectively on every team but with Marshawn Lynch and their OL and RPO driven Russell Wilson being the key ways they move their chains, those WRs were enough to move the chains even if Baldwin was WR2 type for other teams. Our modus operandi operates similarly with AR, RPOs and JT and any play action and passing lanes opened up because of those. I am thinking that is the true reasoning behind the Colts being fine with Pittman leading the show. That is also the reason where they got the short quick separation guy in Josh Downs. 

 

Yes, we need another guy we have to groom from the draft with a ceiling better than Pittman, if we can get one, but I don't see another young WR in FA like Pittman, Tee Higgins is a push, IMO, that benefits from a guy like Chase. I don't think Pittman has benefited from anything truly, with most of the safeties rolled towards him in obvious passing situations and he is not Chase or CeeDee Lamb to get open or box out. I told you even Julio Jones has had only 1 year with 10 TDs, I think folks are getting carried away by what we do with the end zone with limited weapons. Steichen is a step above Reich in scheming things, but still not Andy Reid level. We will see how it plays out.

I have said it before I think a young FA WR who should be available is Darnell Moody of the Bears.  He is an extremely fast WR who can get separation deep.  Pittman , Pierce, Moody and Downs would be a nice group of receivers for AR to throw to.  

[Solid84]

40 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Our WR1 doesn't have to be everyone else's WR1, and we are not paying him like an elite WR1 in the $25-30 mil., so it will settle around $20-23 mil. based on market value. We know he is WR1.5/WR2 ball park. 

 

For example, Doug Baldwin and Javon Kearse/Golden Tate that the Seahawks had, they wouldn't be WR1 and WR2 respectively on every team but with Marshawn Lynch and their OL and RPO driven Russell Wilson being the key ways they move their chains, those WRs were enough to move the chains even if Baldwin was WR2 type for other teams. Our modus operandi operates similarly with AR, RPOs and JT and any play action and passing lanes opened up because of those. I am thinking that is the true reasoning behind the Colts being fine with Pittman leading the show. That is also the reason where they got the short quick separation guy in Josh Downs. 

 

Yes, we need another guy we have to groom from the draft with a ceiling better than Pittman, if we can get one, but I don't see another young WR in FA like Pittman, Tee Higgins is a push, IMO, that benefits from a guy like Chase. I don't think Pittman has benefited from anything truly, with most of the safeties rolled towards him in obvious passing situations and he is not Chase or CeeDee Lamb to get open or box out. I told you even Julio Jones has had only 1 year with 10 TDs, I think folks are getting carried away by what we do with the end zone with limited weapons. Steichen is a step above Reich in scheming things, but still not Andy Reid level. We will see how it plays out.

I just don’t think Pittman brings anything that so many other couldn’t. 
 

Here’s a thought, say we traded Pittman and ended up with an AJ Brown or Brandon Aiyuk. Now we’re looking at getting an X instead of a dynamic threat WR. I think that’s much better situation for us. 
 

Now, I think we re-sign Pittman and I’m fine with that, because I do think we can do a lot worse. I just think our WR room is built beackwards when we end up paying the guy who lives off of a hook route short of the sticks and we’re still looking for that dynamic threat on offense. 

[Zoltan]

Man, I feel a lot of our fan base don’t appreciate how good Pittman is and how productive he has been despite our QB situation his entire career with the Colts.

[Defjamz26]

28 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

Man, I feel a lot of our fan base don’t appreciate how good Pittman is and how productive he has been despite our QB situation his entire career with the Colts.

I think what people realize is that he’s the best out of a group that hasn’t really had a lot of talent since he’s gotten here. The QB situation isn’t the issue. I think his production would be relatively the same. The issue is you’re almost stuck with him.

 

Or think about like this. Where having a debate on what we should do with him right? Ask yourself this, if the Colts had the number 1 overall pick, are we even having this debate? Even if we traded down a few spots, there’s not a single person who wouldn’t draft MHJ and let Pittman walk. He’d walk and then maybe we would draft another possession type receiver on day 2, but you’d sleep comfortably at night knowing that your WR room was MHJ, Josh Downs, and Alec Pierce.

 

To have the Pittman conversation, you have to be honest about is he a guy that you’d upgrade for.

[Zoltan]

16 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

I think what people realize is that he’s the best out of a group that hasn’t really had a lot of talent since he’s gotten here. The QB situation isn’t the issue. I think his production would be relatively the same. The issue is you’re almost stuck with him.

 

Or think about like this. Where having a debate on what we should do with him right? Ask yourself this, if the Colts had the number 1 overall pick, are we even having this debate? Even if we traded down a few spots, there’s not a single person who wouldn’t draft MHJ and let Pittman walk. He’d walk and then maybe we would draft another possession type receiver on day 2, but you’d sleep comfortably at night knowing that your WR room was MHJ, Josh Downs, and Alec Pierce.

 

To have the Pittman conversation, you have to be honest about is he a guy that you’d upgrade for.

 

I guess we just disagree, I mean there's probably 5 or 6 teams where MHJ wouldn't immediately be the best WR on the team, so it's hard to use the MHJ argument and you would still want to still resign Pittman and draft MHJ, because the ideal situation is one rookie contract and one veteran contract like the Bengals, Dolphins, and Eagles. 4 Qbs in 4 years will always be an issue, for any receiver/team and yet despite being the only real threat at receiver and the focus for the defense he has been productive with mostly average at best QB play. So I have to disagree that his production would be the same, with more consistent/better QB play because outside of his rookie year he's been at around 1/3rd of our receiving yards each year.

[KB]

9 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

I think what people realize is that he’s the best out of a group that hasn’t really had a lot of talent since he’s gotten here. The QB situation isn’t the issue. I think his production would be relatively the same. The issue is you’re almost stuck with him.

 

Or think about like this. Where having a debate on what we should do with him right? Ask yourself this, if the Colts had the number 1 overall pick, are we even having this debate? Even if we traded down a few spots, there’s not a single person who wouldn’t draft MHJ and let Pittman walk. He’d walk and then maybe we would draft another possession type receiver on day 2, but you’d sleep comfortably at night knowing that your WR room was MHJ, Josh Downs, and Alec Pierce.

 

To have the Pittman conversation, you have to be honest about is he a guy that you’d upgrade for.

If we had the #1 pick this year then we should take MHJ, and extend MPJ. I would want MHJ as the Z, MPJ as the X, Josh Downs in the slot, and Pierce coming in to let em breathe here and there. Actually sounds like an amazing WR core. Pittman contract come up right in time for Harrison to get extended.

[Solid84]

I still don’t think poor QB play is an excuse. 

• Terry McLaurin
• DJ Moore
• George Pickens
• Drake London
• Garrett Wilson
• Adam Thielen

That’s just a few guys who’s had some questionable QB play this season and still produced. McLaurin and Moore has had nothing but questionable QB play their entire careers and still produced and while they are recognized as good noone’s praising them. 

[Defjamz26]

6 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

I guess we just disagree, I mean there's probably 5 or 6 teams where MHJ wouldn't immediately be the best WR on the team, so it's hard to use the MHJ argument and you would still want to still resign Pittman and draft MHJ, because the ideal situation is one rookie contract and one veteran contract like the Bengals, Dolphins, and Eagles. 4 Qbs in 4 years will always be an issue, for any receiver/team and yet despite being the only real threat at receiver and the focus for the defense he has been productive with mostly average at best QB play. So I have to disagree that his production would be the same, with more consistent/better QB play because outside of his rookie year he's been at around 1/3rd of our receiving yards each year.

Pittman isn’t struggling to get the ball though. Thats my point. He’s always the most targeted receiver on the team. And given the fact that he’s not explosive, he’s not going to see a significant jump in YPR or total yards just because AR is healthy for a full season. His skillset as a WR isn’t one that needs elite QB play. An adequate or average QB will get the same production out of Pittman. Bad or below average QB play has more of an effect on explosive down the field receivers (Pierce, Hilton, etc…)
 

I don’t want to go to far into it because I’ve had this convo in another topic, but I always compare Pitt to JuJu. Same school and same skillset. They’re almost the same exact player. Juju played with Rothlisberger and Pat Mahomes. He did not have a better season with Mahomes than he did with Big Ben. Now with Jones and Zappe he had his worst year as a pro but that goes to show you how bad they were. Way worse than Wentz and Ryan where Pittman still saw 1,000 and 900+ receiving yards.

 

Also JuJu’s stats compared to Pittman are also why I don’t think he’s getting a huge pay day. If you look at his season numbers and the deals he got from the Chiefs and then the Pats, that’s honestly more around where Pitt should be. Thats why I think he’ll get tagged and one year deals. Max maybe a 2 year deal.

[KB]

19 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I still don’t think poor QB play is an excuse. 

• Terry McLaurin
• DJ Moore
• George Pickens
• Drake London
• Garrett Wilson
• Adam Thielen

That’s just a few guys who’s had some questionable QB play this season and still produced. McLaurin and Moore has had nothing but questionable QB play their entire careers and still produced and while they are recognized as good noone’s praising them. 

Outside of Moore and McLauren, I'd take Pittman over any of them hands down. McLauren is the only one I'd take over Pittman. McLauren and Moore (before going to the Bears) have been complimented quiet a bit for producing without quality QBs. It's how you know they're quality players. They don't need a QB to produce results. They just need to be fed.

 

I don't see how him producing with multiple less than stellar QBs is a bad thing, or how he shouldn't be recognized for it. Teams know we're feeding him. Known it for about 3 years. They arnt slowing him down to much. Not alot of WRs are able to do that in the league. That shows he is a quality player. Not best in the league, but still quality.

 

We just need to draft someone who can be a quality Z and this WR rooms become complete. If they become the WR1 everyone wants then they'll be due for a contract as Pittmans comes due again.

[Defjamz26]

49 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I still don’t think poor QB play is an excuse. 

• Terry McLaurin
• DJ Moore
• George Pickens
• Drake London
• Garrett Wilson
• Adam Thielen

That’s just a few guys who’s had some questionable QB play this season and still produced. McLaurin and Moore has had nothing but questionable QB play their entire careers and still produced and while they are recognized as good noone’s praising them. 

Mike Evans is another one. Had Baker Mayfield and still put up 1200 yards. On only 79 catches.

 

1 hour ago, KB said:

If we had the #1 pick this year then we should take MHJ, and extend MPJ. I would want MHJ as the Z, MPJ as the X, Josh Downs in the slot, and Pierce coming in to let em breathe here and there. Actually sounds like an amazing WR core. Pittman contract come up right in time for Harrison to get extended.

Pittman is basically a big slot. In this scenario MHJ would undoubtedly be the X since he can beat press coverage and generate big plays down the field. If you draft a guy like Marv, it’s makes Pitt disposable since Downs can play the slot or Z, and Pierce is a pure Z. At that point it would be a waste to pay Pittman to not be the main target. 

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Mike Evans is another one. Had Baker Mayfield and still put up 1200 yards. On only 79 catches.

 

Pittman is basically a big slot. In this scenario MHJ would undoubtedly be the X since he can beat press coverage and generate big plays down the field. If you draft a guy like Marv, it’s makes Pitt disposable since Downs can play the slot or Z, and Pierce is a pure Z. At that point it would be a waste to pay Pittman to not be the main target. 

You have to be realistic though. Mike Evan’s isn’t coming here, nor is Ballard going after him. Tee Higgins might come here but I don’t think he’s an upgrade.

 

Is Pittman going to fetch you a first rounder and another Day 2 pick for us to consider trading him? The Colts are a bit cornered because he’s the best of our bunch and would easily fit in opposite a Chase or Lamb because let’s face it, a lot of teams use their WR1 as big slots and Higgins is similar too but disappears more than Pittman, IMO.

 

Its like the bird in hand worth more than 2 in the bush. That’s why I had us drafting 2 WRs in this draft, one a vertical threat and another a Big Slot/X that this draft is filled with. It would give us options with both Pierce and MPJ down the road but right now, I’d like MPJ around for 2-3 years to grow with AR.

 

In other words, we stand to lose more than gain by letting him go and there’s no guarantee any other FA won’t play the Colts against another team with no allegiance to the Colts. 

[KB]

35 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Pittman is basically a big slot. In this scenario MHJ would undoubtedly be the X since he can beat press coverage and generate big plays down the field. If you draft a guy like Marv, it’s makes Pitt disposable since Downs can play the slot or Z, and Pierce is a pure Z. At that point it would be a waste to pay Pittman to not be the main target. 

I see the positions differently. My understanding might be off. Here's my thinking.

 

I agree the X needs to be able to beat their guy at the line. End of the formation on the line of scrimmage. I think Harrison, Pittman, and Pierce can do that. They don't necessarily have to win down the field. It's great if they can, but you want a bully. He's gonna wear press coverage down with his own physicality over the game and he will make the tough catches. That's Pittman to me. I think Pierce is the other kind of X that is more of a beat the man at the line of scrimmage and get downfield.

 

To me the Z should be the star receiver specializing in explosive plays and a have complete route tree. Preferred to be quick and fast. He needs to flat out beat any coverage in front of him. Use him in motion if the press coverage can beat him at the line. We've had Pitt playing this role because he is our best receiver. I think Harrison would shine hear because while he can beat his man at the line, getting him a free release would be way better. Downs will grow more here hopefully.

 

There's a bunch of different flavors of slot receivers but the main thing is find the soft spot in coverage consistently.

 

Really, Harrison is pumped up as one of the greats that should be good anywhere you put him. Him, Pittman, Downs, and Pierce would make a great WR room for us. As I finish this I think to myself "too bad it won't happen". Lol

[chad72]

32 minutes ago, KB said:

Really, Harrison is pumped up as one of the greats that should be good anywhere you put him. Him, Pittman, Downs, and Pierce would make a great WR room for us. As I finish this I think to myself "too bad it won't happen". Lol

 

There are some good speedsters like Troy Franklin, Xavier Legette, Xavier Worthy etc. all of whom can play Z. Brian Thomas Jr. can play X and Z, all of whom will be in our range.

[KB]

14 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

There are some good speedsters like Troy Franklin, Xavier Legette, Xavier Worthy etc. all of whom can play Z. Brian Thomas Jr. can play X and Z, all of whom will be in our range.

The draft is filled with good options for us. Even as far as the third round I think we can find some quality. Hope we don't wait that long.

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Pittman isn’t struggling to get the ball though. Thats my point. He’s always the most targeted receiver on the team. And given the fact that he’s not explosive, he’s not going to see a significant jump in YPR or total yards just because AR is healthy for a full season. His skillset as a WR isn’t one that needs elite QB play. An adequate or average QB will get the same production out of Pittman. Bad or below average QB play has more of an effect on explosive down the field receivers (Pierce, Hilton, etc…)
 

I don’t want to go to far into it because I’ve had this convo in another topic, but I always compare Pitt to JuJu. Same school and same skillset. They’re almost the same exact player. Juju played with Rothlisberger and Pat Mahomes. He did not have a better season with Mahomes than he did with Big Ben. Now with Jones and Zappe he had his worst year as a pro but that goes to show you how bad they were. Way worse than Wentz and Ryan where Pittman still saw 1,000 and 900+ receiving yards.

 

Also JuJu’s stats compared to Pittman are also why I don’t think he’s getting a huge pay day. If you look at his season numbers and the deals he got from the Chiefs and then the Pats, that’s honestly more around where Pitt should be. Thats why I think he’ll get tagged and one year deals. Max maybe a 2 year deal.

I wouldn’t be quite so quick to say what will happen if Pitt gets a full season with AR.    You may be entirely right, you make some good and fair arguments.   But AR is a unicorn, so I think it’s possible we might see things none of us were expecting.  
 

Remember, Pitt’s first two years he averaged 12 yards a catch.  These last two years with uneven QB play his average has been 10 per catch.  Wouldn’t we all be happy if AR brought Pitts number back up to 12 or maybe even 13 per catch?    I think those are the kind of things that might be possible with AR.  
 

[Zoltan]

All i know is if Christian Kirk got an average of 18 million a year without every getting to 1000 yards receiving, Pittman who had two 1000 yard seasons and 100 more catches will probably get 20+ Million.

[Solid84]

3 hours ago, Zoltan said:

All i know is if Christian Kirk got an average of 18 million a year without every getting to 1000 yards receiving, Pittman who had two 1000 yard seasons and 100 more catches will probably get 20+ Million.

Kirk has also scored more TDs than MPJ on those 100 fewer catches.

[jvan1973]

100 catches and 1100 yards.   He is getting 20+

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, Solid84 said:

Kirk has also scored more TDs than MPJ on those 100 fewer catches.

 

 I counter that with our run game and Jonathan Taylor finishing up the drive.

Touche!

 A really good offense needs that go to guy that can keep the chains moving in critical situations.

Pittman raised his game to that next level this season as a complete player, a real warrior. I think he can be our Kelce.. ish warrior/leader/competitor. 

 He will earn his paycheck.

[Defjamz26]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You may be entirely right, you make some good and fair arguments.   But AR is a unicorn, so I think it’s possible we might see things none of us were expecting.  

The real thing I’m expecting to see is Alec Pierce taking a leap with AR. Minshew cost Pierce at least 300 yards with all the times he either missed him running wide open or over/under threw him. We’ll see what Pittman does because whether it’s the tag or an actual deal, he’ll likely be here next season.

[Solid84]

15 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The real thing I’m expecting to see is Alec Pierce taking a leap with AR. Minshew cost Pierce at least 300 yards with all the times he either missed him running wide open or over/under threw him. We’ll see what Pittman does because whether it’s the tag or an actual deal, he’ll likely be here next season.

I think AP’s numbers will increase quite a bit, but not before AR is ready to do more than 2 reads.