Ar athleticism compared to Vick, Jackson, etc?

[Trace Pyott]

How well does Richardson stack up athletically compared to running qb of the past such as Vick, Lamar Jackson, etc?  I’m talking about coming out of college btw not how well they ended up being or are currently.  How does his arm stack up compared to them when they came out of college?  Thanks. 

[stitches]

Richardson is the most athletic QB to ever test at the combine. His composite relative athletic score(RAS) is 10.00, which means he's in the 100th percentile(more athletic than every QB ever). His athletic score is the 3d best athletic score out of any player at any position to ever test at the combine. The only 2 who have had higher scores are Calvin Johnson and Jordan Davis. With that said Lamar didn't test at the combine, but IMO even if he did test, he wouldn't have gotten higher score than Richardson. 

 

It's hard to say how his arm stacks among the strongest of the strongest ever, but he has one of the best and most effortless arms I've seen. IMO from day 1 he would have one of the strongest arms in the league. 

[Two_pound]

The thing about Richardson is he so strong and fast. He had runs against LSU, Tennessee, and South Carolina that not even Jackson, Newton, or anyone else could have made(in my opinion). His 60 yard touchdown run against South Carolina was incredible, he looked like a combination of Eric Dickerson and Chuck Muncie. His "football speed" is amazing. That being said, it doesn't mean he can become an efficient and top quality starter in the nfl. I hope we can get Stroud, then my second choice is Hooker, but, I would be okay with Richardson and let Stichen and Cooter see if they can turn him into a top "franchise qb" in the league. I would take Richardson over Levis or Young any day.

[DougDew]

Vick and Jackson are more athletic, by good margin, IMO.  RAS is not pure science or objective data.  If I understand it correctly, the score is achieved by taking the raw performance scores in things like 40, 3 cone, and other stuff and compare them relative to the person's size or playing position.

 

For instance, a 6'5 220 pound WR with a 10 RAS is going to be much more athletic than a 6'5 300 pound G with a 10 RAS.

 

While AR, Lamar, and Vick are all QBs, Vick was faster by all accounts, and Lamar looks way more agile.  They all may have scored a 10 for the positions, but AR probably scored lower gross scores in things like 40 yard and 3 cones but got more points for being 6.4/230.   A playcaller still cannot run the same types of sideways running plays with AR as he would with Lamar and Vick and expect the same level of success (AR might have to break a tackle...and maybe he can at his size.....whereas Vick and Lamar could juke past the defender....follow?). 

 

No, its not like you're getting Vick or Lamar at 6.4/230...at least you can't infer that by the RAS score.  JMO.  

[stitches]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Vick and Jackson are more athletic, by good margin, IMO.  RAS is not pure science or objective data.  If I understand it correctly, the score is achieved by taking the raw performance scores in things like 40, 3 cone, and other stuff and compare them relative to the person's size or playing position.

 

For instance, a 6'5 220 pound WR with a 10 RAS is going to be much more athletic than a 6'5 300 pound G with a 10 RAS.

 

That's not exactly how it works. The score is percentile for the position. They have some formula, where they enter the athletic tests... AND THE SIZE(height weight) and it spits out a number and then it puts that number as a percentile for all the players at the position. So it doesn't say anything about guards vs WRs, those are in completely different buckets. But the size indeed impacts the score. For example 6'0" 210lbs QB with the exact same tests as Richardson will have lower RAS than Richardson, because Richardson had those test results at higher weight and height.

 

Vick ran the 40 for 4.33, but at lower weight and height. He also jumped 38" in the vertical (lower than Richardson). 

 

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

While AR, Lamar, and Vick are all QBs, Vick was faster by all accounts, and Lamar looks way more agile.  They all may have scored a 10 for the positions, but AR probably scored lower gross scores in things like 40 yard and 3 cones but got more points for being 6.4/230.   

 

I think you are right Lamar and Vick probably had better agility. But none of them actually tested at those. Richardson didn't just test fast at the 40. He also scored the best combine scores ever at the jumps - 40.5 vertical and 10'9" broad jump. This is at 6'4 1/4" 244lbs. 

 

Lamar refused to test, so we will never know what his score would have been. Vick only tested at 40 and vertical and that's not enough to give you RAS. 

 

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

A playcaller still cannot run the same types of sideways running plays with AR as he would with Lamar and Vick and expect the same level of success (AR might have to break a tackle...and maybe he can at his size...follow?).  JMO.  

 

Yeah. Richardson might not be able to have the same success at certain type of plays as Vick and Lamar, but he can do other things that Lamar and Vick couldn't... 

[indykmj]

Vick was faster at top end and Jackson has more wiggle/lateral quickness.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

 

That's not exactly how it works. The score is percentile for the position. They have some formula, where they enter the athletic tests... AND THE SIZE(height weight) and it spits out a number and then it puts that number as a percentile for all the players at the position. So it doesn't say anything about guards vs WRs, those are in completely different buckets. But the size indeed impacts the score. For example 6'0" 210lbs QB with the exact same tests as Richardson will have lower RAS than Richardson, because Richardson had those test results at higher weight and height.

 

Vick ran the 40 for 4.33, but at lower weight and height. He also jumped 38" in the vertical (lower than Richardson). 

 

 

I think you are right Lamar and Vick probably had better agility. But none of them actually tested at those. Richardson didn't just test fast at the 40. He also scored the best combine scores ever at the jumps - 40.5 vertical and 10'9" broad jump. This is at 6'4 1/4" 244lbs. 

 

Lamar refused to test, so we will never know what his score would have been. Vick only tested at 40 and vertical and that's not enough to give you RAS. 

 

 

Yeah. Richardson might not be able to have the same success at certain type of plays as Vick and Lamar, but he can do other things that Lamar and Vick couldn't... 

Yes, you've restated a lot of what I said, and you and I understand RAS the same;

 

The first word in RAS is Relative.  So there is some subjectivity in the mathematical result.  The algorithms are written (by humans) to process the same information consistently,,,relative...to how the framers of the RAS thinks the data should be weighted.

 

What the score says purely, is that AR scored near perfect movement and strength scores for a QB at his size (do QBs even bench press like OLs might, and is bench press even part of the QB algorithm...and how much should vertical leap be weighted compared to footspeed).  He got positive points for size, even though his movement scores were probably on the whole lower than some smaller QBs.  AR is definitely more athletic than Luck, Manning, and Brady; but anybody trying to say that he is a larger version of Vick or Lamar, that's not was RAS is saying  (obviously AR is much closer to being the latter two than Manning, I was just using it as an example)

 

A 7'2/380 pound QB might also have a 10 RAS score, but a 4.9 40 yard dash.  There comes a point where the RAS becomes of diminished worth, IMO.   Obviously a larger man allows a team to do things, but I would not call that bigger guy "as athletic" as another QB that posted a 10 RAS.

 

Its also why I question the value of Jelani Woods' 10 RAS.  There is a point where the human body is simply too tall to move well enough for football, and for a TE, I'd probably want a 6.5/250 pound guy with a 10 RAS over a 6'7/250 pound guy and a 10 RAS because that smaller guy probably moves better, but with adequate size for the position.

[Smonroe]

Good question.  What's important to think about is how did those QBs do in their NFL careers.  Jury is out on Lamar, but the last two seasons showed that a running QB isn't going to last.  Cam led his team to the SB but eventually he bottomed out.  RG3 was good for a year.  Like Ballard said, you need a guy who can throw (with accuracy) from the pocket.

 

The plus side is that SS can put AR right into the initial Philly offense and let him develop like they did with Jalen.  But Jalen had more experience to begin with and appears to be a more accurate passer.

 

I'd love to have AR as our QB.  If it were up to me, I'd roll the dice and take him.  But my job isn't on the line if he turns out to be EJ Manuel.

[richard pallo]

Just what we need another thread for the Richardson lovers.

[DougDew]

22 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

The plus side is that SS can put AR right into the initial Philly offense and let him develop like they did with Jalen.  But Jalen had more experience to begin with and appears to be a more accurate passer.

Yep, yep, and more yep.

[Smonroe]

13 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Just what we need another thread for the Richardson lovers.

 

Well, I was going to start one for our new kicker.  But I thought that would be Matt.

[Solid84]

They aren’t really comparable in my opinion. AR is bigger than both, but Vick and Jackson had/have that twitchy start/stop when they run that throws off defenders. 

[funktacious2]

 

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

They aren’t really comparable in my opinion. AR is bigger than both, but Vick and Jackson had/have that twitchy start/stop when they run that throws off defenders. 

Yeah, this is kind of how it looks to me too when I try to compare. Which frankly I like a lot out of Richardson. You never really know but I feel he is built to handle more abuse than the other two. 

[chad72]

He is not a Lamar Jackson or Vick type of runner, he is more like a long strided Cam Newton but faster. He would be great at the goal line and on key first down yardage as a result. He will need tall WRs so that if he throws a bit high, they come down with it, so the inaccuracy can be accounted for a little bit. Along those lines, we have some of that on our team.

[superrep1967]

Why we are not drafting him so what difference does it make??

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, Solid84 said:

They aren’t really comparable in my opinion. AR is bigger than both, but Vick and Jackson had/have that twitchy start/stop when they run that throws off defenders. 

Yep. AR can run fast and pick up steam, but he doesn’t move like those guys. I wonder if he will have a tougher time breaking off monster runs because NFL-sized players are actually better equipped to tackle him at his size. His legs will still certainly be a weapon though.

[compuls1v3]

7 hours ago, chad72 said:

He is not a Lamar Jackson or Vick type of runner, he is more like a long strided Cam Newton but faster. He would be great at the goal line and on key first down yardage as a result. He will need tall WRs so that if he throws a bit high, they come down with it, so the inaccuracy can be accounted for a little bit. Along those lines, we have some of that on our team.

I was under the impression his passes were uncatchable.....by ANYBODY lol.

[Jackie Daytona]

29 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

I was under the impression his passes were uncatchable.....by ANYBODY lol.

This.  AR had a really low rate of Int.....not because he made sure to put the ball where the DB couldn't get a chance at it ....but because he was constantly sailing passes 5-10 YARDS beyond where anyone had a shot at it.

[lollygagger8]

Good for him if he has a stronger arm than He-Man. 

 

Remember when Jacoby started? He had a rifle arm, but the ball kept bouncing off WR's (when it got to them) because he threw it so hard. 

 

You still have to have touch (and accuracy) so WR's can catch it. 

[IndyColtsFan411]

21 hours ago, DougDew said:

A 7'2/380 pound QB might also have a 10 RAS score, but a 4.9 40 yard dash. 

Off topic response:  Just an FYI, there is a book series called the GFL written by Scott Sigler.  The 1st book is called the rookie.  Great sci-fi, mafia-esque, book (I listened to it as a podcast).  Set in the future.  The QB in this series is Quenton Barnes (QB lol) who is 7'2", 350lbs and runs a 4.4 40.  I know it is fiction, but could you imagine the possibilities if someone that large was that athletic?  It's a great series if you like to immerse yourself into original ideas.

[Nadine]

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