Quenton Nelson

[CR91]

Q is in a tough spot because hes helping Kelly a lot more then usual with an inexperience LT to boot. Kelly has been horrible. He needs to be traded or benched.

[esmort]

So many excuses for Q ...he's a #6 pick who just got paid big...he's not returning even close to what was invested.

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

23 hours ago, pgt_rob said:

Maybe just having an off year? It happens… Then add not having Castonzo, no Reid and Glow is throwing off continuity. 

glow is doing great run blocking for barkley

[w87r]

10 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

glow is doing great run blocking for barkley

He has a 55.2 PFF score on the year.

 

 

He is playing slightly better than Pinter for 4x the money this season, 7x the money next season.

[Goatface Killah]

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

He has a 55.2 PFF score on the year.

 

 

He is playing slightly better than Pinter for 4x the money this season, 7x the money next season.

That should be a giant red flag for you to stop trusting PFF and their "evaluations".

[esmort]

3 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

That should be a giant red flag for you to stop trusting PFF and their "evaluations".

 

PFF isn't gospel or the final word in evaluations. But to act like you can dismiss them out of hand is ridiculous. They do some things well, and the NFL wouldn't pay for the professional side of their product if it was as useless as you rant about.

[w87r]

3 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

That should be a giant red flag for you to stop trusting PFF and their "evaluations".

Why?

 

I'm not some big PFF evaluation guy. I do check in on our weekly rankings and compare that to how I feel they played and it seems to be a good baseline. Is it perfect? No. Nothing is.

 

 

You guys might want to tune into the game in the morning and see how Glowinski plays. 

 

 

 

[Goatface Killah]

4 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

PFF isn't gospel or the final word in evaluations. But to act like you can dismiss them out of hand is ridiculous. They do some things well, and the NFL wouldn't pay for the professional side of their product if it was as useless as you rant about.

But you treat it like gospel when it suits you. 

 

Believe it or not NFL teams dont need PFF to evaluate players for them.

 

The fact you think they do, is absolutely insane.

 

PFF does a lot more than player grades. The NFL might be interested in some of their data but they are not paying PFF to tell them how well their players graded in a game. I assure you of that. 

[Goatface Killah]

3 minutes ago, w87r said:

Why?

 

I'm not some big PFF evaluation guy. I do check in on our weekly rankings and compare that to how I feel they played and it seems to be a good baseline. Is it perfect? No. Nothing is.

 

 

You guys might want to tune into the game in the morning and see how Glowinski plays. 

 

 

 

You guys always say this.....is it perfect? No.

 

Why are you all so quick to throw it into an argument then?

[esmort]

1 minute ago, Goatface Killah said:

But you treat it like gospel when it suits you. 

 

Believe it or not NFL teams dont need PFF to evaluate players for them.

 

The fact you think they do, is absolutely insane.

 

PFF does a lot more than player grades. The NFL might be interested in some of their data but they are not paying PFF to tell them how well their players graded in a game. I assure you of that. 

 

I don't see many use it as gospel. Most seem to use it as one of many references. I would rather have someone have something to back up their opinion than their eye test opinion with nothing backing it.

 

I never said the NFL used PFF to evaluate players weekly for them, I think they actually use it more for college data ... But what they use it for is beside the point.  If the company was as useless and unreliable as you keep going on about the NFL, and other organizations wouldn't use it at all.

[esmort]

6 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

You guys always say this.....is it perfect? No.

 

Why are you all so quick to throw it into an argument then?

 

Because it adds more to a perspective 

 than a posters unsupported opinion or some random Twitter analyst.

[w87r]

Just now, Goatface Killah said:

You guys always say this.....is it perfect? No.

 

Why are you all so quick to throw it into an argument then?

Because it grades players equally across it's "nonperfect" evaluations.

 

As I've said I take their ranking and compare how they are to how I feel the Colts players played.

 

Their system seems to be pretty good. At least with their rating system. Again, perfect? What is?

 

So it makes cross team comparisons formidable. 

 

I know how the Colts player has been playing, so can take that ranking and compare how others are playing on other teams as well. Gives you a pretty good idea.

[Goatface Killah]

23 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

Because it adds more to a perspective 

 than a posters unsupported opinion or some random Twitter analyst.

I dont think it adds anything to a perspective at all because I dont think the scouts who work for them are trustworthy or they would be working for a team in the NFL or a college program. 

 

But for the sake of the argument......

 

Have you ever watched Devin White play?

 

Have you ever watched him and thought........that guy is one of the worst LBs in football?

 

I dont think I have ever heard someone offer that opinion.

 

So what does that PFF "evaluation" of him mean if there arent any other opinions that line up with it? Are they smarter than literally everyone else in earth? Obviously not.

 

So it clearly means nothing.

 

And the grade on Nelson is no different? 

 

People will trash a guy like Ballard who is an actual scout with decades of verifiable experience at the highest levels, using grades done by people they have never heard of. Its absurd.

 

 

 

 

[Goatface Killah]

37 minutes ago, w87r said:

Because it grades players equally across it's "nonperfect" evaluations.

 

As I've said I take their ranking and compare how they are to how I feel the Colts players played.

 

Their system seems to be pretty good. At least with their rating system. Again, perfect? What is?

 

So it makes cross team comparisons formidable. 

 

I know how the Colts player has been playing, so can take that ranking and compare how others are playing on other teams as well. Gives you a pretty good idea.

Ill ask you about Devin White as well because I want to hear you explain how their evaluations can be so far off and still be promoted as meaningful and trustworthy. Thats not imperfect, thats just a terrible grade on a player.

 

If their grades are flawed or "not perfect" as you put it, then all their grades are likely flawed, so while every grade might be equally flawed........ it doesnt make the grades accurate or good.

 

Thats not logical. And thats my point. A bad grade is just a bad grade.

[w87r]

31 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

Ill ask you about Devin White as well because I want to hear you explain how their evaluations can be so far off and still be promoted as meaningful and trustworthy. Thats not imperfect, thats just a terrible grade on a player.

 

If their grades are flawed or "not perfect" as you put it, then all their grades are likely flawed, so while every grade might be equally flawed........ it doesnt make the grades accurate or good.

 

Thats not logical. And thats my point. A bad grade is just a bad grade.

Curious case no doubt. PFF seems to have an issue with something? Haven't watched him closely enough, don't have subscription, so only basic info. Would admit seems a little off, but can't have a good opinion on it.

 

I can only take a rating system PFF gives me and a rating PFF gives a player for that week and see if it correlates reasonably to what I think I saw.

 

Only way I can come up with an opinion on how well their data translates.

 

So I will speak on the rating of the players I watch intensely more in depth(Colts) and compare the ratings assigned to them, to make my judgement.

 

The Colts rankings seem to at least have some logic when I compare. Seems to match how I interpreted their play.

 

I have watched 2 Giants games this year and would agree with PFF assessment that Glow is not playing very well. Like to keep up on what former Colts are doing.

 

 

For the most part, PFF seems to be a decent evaluation source. Holy grail? Nope. Flaws? Certainly, but every stat does.

 

 

That's enough for me on this subject. I'm not here to talk you into liking PFF stats and you're not going to convince me to ignore them.

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, Goatface Killah said:

Thats not logical. And thats my point. A bad grade is just a bad grade.

 

So what do you use to evaluate how someone is performing? Other fans opinions?

 

I'm not a fan of PFF but they are a lot more "logical" (to use your word) than opinions of average fans who evaluate players only by what they see. Fans are not objective at all. PFF has an objective way to evaluate players. I often disagree with them but I am not studying film the way they are.

[Goatface Killah]

54 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

So what do you use to evaluate how someone is performing? Other fans opinions?

 

I'm not a fan of PFF but they are a lot more "logical" (to use your word) than opinions of average fans who evaluate players only by what they see. Fans are not objective at all. PFF has an objective way to evaluate players. I often disagree with them but I am not studying film the way they are.

I just form my own opinion and stand on it. 

 

Whats wrong with that? 

 

Even if PFF shares my opinion, it doesnt necessarily mean Im right. And if I am wrong, I am wrong. So what? Its ok. I will adjust my opinion and move on with life.

 

Again, I want someone to tell me if they are so objective and logical......and their system is so solid.....how can they possibly come to the conclusion that Devin White isnt a very good NFL LB?

 

I think he ranks in the 100s for LBs right now. I also believe he graded very low last year.

 

I think the fact they watched all that film and still graded him that poorly is an indictment of their methods. They are either placing far too much value on things that arent that important or too little value on things that are very important. Idk. But something isnt right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, Goatface Killah said:

I just form my own opinion and stand on it. 

 

Whats wrong with that? 

 

Even if PFF shares my opinion, it doesnt necessarily mean Im right. And if I am wrong, I am wrong. So what? Its ok. I will adjust my opinion and move on with life.

 

Again, I want someone to tell me if they are so objective and logical......and their system is so solid.....how can they possibly come to the conclusion that Devin White isnt a very good NFL LB?

 

I think he ranks in the 100s for LBs right now. I also believe he graded very low last year.

 

I think the fact they watched all that film and still graded him that poorly is an indictment of their methods. They are either placing far too much value on things that arent that important or too little value on things that are very important. Idk. But something isnt right.

 

Please share a link to where you read that? (Maybe you did earlier??)

 

[Zoltan]

5 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

So what do you use to evaluate how someone is performing? Other fans opinions?

 

I'm not a fan of PFF but they are a lot more "logical" (to use your word) than opinions of average fans who evaluate players only by what they see. Fans are not objective at all. PFF has an objective way to evaluate players. I often disagree with them but I am not studying film the way they are.

 

Most fans will see one bad play and be convinced a player is bad even if they play good to great for the other 46 snaps

[GoColts8818]

5 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

So what do you use to evaluate how someone is performing? Other fans opinions?

 

I'm not a fan of PFF but they are a lot more "logical" (to use your word) than opinions of average fans who evaluate players only by what they see. Fans are not objective at all. PFF has an objective way to evaluate players. I often disagree with them but I am not studying film the way they are.

I think like stats PFF is a tool that can be used to evaluate someone.  Where I think some get into trouble with it is when they treat it as the end all be all way to evaluate someone.  If it was teams wouldn’t need GMs anymore.  With that said it’s still useful as long as people understand going in just like stats it’s not the end all be all.  

[Nancy]

I think he prefers to go by Quenton! He's a beast and needs to use his strength! 

[NFLfan]

5 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

I think like stats PFF is a tool that can be used to evaluate someone.  Where I think some get into trouble with it is when they treat it as the end all be all way to evaluate someone.  If it was teams wouldn’t need GMs anymore.  With that said it’s still useful as long as people understand going in just like stats it’s not the end all be all.  

 

I agree. I believe Football Outsiders also has tools. I have liked theirs better than PFF but neither is the absolute tool for evaluating players. They all have their limitations but they use a more objective method to evaluate players than fans do. 

[NFLfan]

5 hours ago, Nancy said:

I think he prefers to go by Quenton! He's a beast and needs to use his strength! 

 

I edited the title's name for ya.

[Goatface Killah]

5 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Please share a link to where you read that? (Maybe you did earlier??)

 

I dont have a link for his ranking this season. When they played against the Packers on Sunday Night Football and they did player intros they have their PFF rank listed under their name and he was in the 100s.

 

I also read an article last year about him ranking very low so I wasnt surprised to see that.

 

https://www.pewterreport.com/pff-ranks-bucs-players-lb-white-shockingly-low/

 

 

 

 

[NFLfan]

21 hours ago, Goatface Killah said:

I dont have a link for his ranking this season. When they played against the Packers on Sunday Night Football and they did player intros they have their PFF rank listed under their name and he was in the 100s.

 

I also read an article last year about him ranking very low so I wasnt surprised to see that.

 

https://www.pewterreport.com/pff-ranks-bucs-players-lb-white-shockingly-low/

 

 

I found something. It ranked the Colts linebackers 2nd in the NFL and Tampa Bay not far behind them. In the article it says Lavonte David is carrying them. Perhaps their grading system has White scoring poorly. One can get the job done without practicing fundamentals. PFF values fundamentals.

 

[w87r]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:12 PM, Goatface Killah said:

But for the sake of the argument......

 

Have you ever watched Devin White play?

 

Have you ever watched him and thought........that guy is one of the worst LBs in football?

 

I dont think I have ever heard someone offer that opinion.

 

[Goatface Killah]

2 hours ago, w87r said:

 

He was the NFC defensive player of the month for September.

 

This is just 1 play posted by some dude named "DJ".

[w87r]

17 minutes ago, Goatface Killah said:

He was the NFC defensive player of the month for September.

 

This is just 1 play posted by some dude named "DJ".

Well it was like 5 plays or something, but who cares.

 

DJ is a Bucs fan who watches the team every week, apparently very closely. Close enough to catch this montage of horrible play from this 1 game. Clearly the guy is fed up with what he is seeing, and is posting proof of what he is saying. For him to say he is unplayable right now, that isn't just some single game rant.

 

Bowles is even having to answer questions about if White should be benched. Backed his player, but still getting asked the question.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/10/29/todd-bowles-defends-devin-whites-performance/

 

 

Anyway saw that article earlier and made me think of this conversation. Thought it would be insightful to see why he potentially could be getting low PFF scores. Video says it all, if that is any indication of how he has been playing. National TV performance, usually players get up even more for those games. 

 

You asked if I watched. I had before, but this was first time since then I have had the chance to watch him closely. I came away very unimpressed with the performance. 

 

 

Then you said you hadn't heard anyone say that about White.(one of worst LBs in League) Unplayable seems to be pretty close. And that's a Bucs fan saying that about his own guy.

 

Anyway I'm not here to convince you of anything. Just dropped the clip to check out as it made me think about this conversation.

 

Clearly you didn't even watch it though.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:07 AM, NorthernColt said:

For all the talk about how bad our Oline has been, from what I've seen Nelson is somehow escaping criticism when this is probably the worst I've seen him play. Is he better than the rest of the line that's currently the worst in the league? Yes, but we also aren't paying anyone else on that line $20M a season!

 

I'm actually concerned. I've seen him on his back more this year than his first 4 years combined! With how his back was giving him problems last year, it does scare me a bit. From what I have watched, I've seen him pancaked more times this year than he's pancaked defenders. He looks like a shell of himself.

 

Bottom line is, when you become the highest paid player at a position ever, expectations go up, fair or not. When you wear a "C", you need to take ownership and lead! This is his offensive line, he needs to realize that they go as he goes.

 

THAT IS WHY U DO NOT PAY A GUARD 20 MILLION A YEAR!!I TOLD U SO AND EVERYONE WAS LIKE HE IS GENERATIONAL. HE MAKES THE LINE BETTER. HE MAKES THE LEFT TACKLE POSITION BETTER. BALLARD SAID HE IS A TRANSCEDENT PLAYER. THE ONLY THING GENERATIONAL AND/OR TRANSCDENT BOUT HIM IS HIS CONTRACT. CAPS FOR EFFECT AND I TOLD EVERYONE DO NOT SIGN HIM AND WAIT TILL END OF YEAR . MY LAST POST EVER ON NELSON LOL!!!

[Moosejawcolt]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:44 AM, IndySouthsider said:

Next top Guard FA will make more.

Maybe not. The next  team will look at his contract and it could be a cautionary tale of what not to do.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 10/8/2022 at 3:14 PM, w87r said:

Why?

 

I'm not some big PFF evaluation guy. I do check in on our weekly rankings and compare that to how I feel they played and it seems to be a good baseline. Is it perfect? No. Nothing is.

 

 

You guys might want to tune into the game in the morning and see how Glowinski plays. 

 

 

 

That's kind of a dumb video. He basically  blind sided him and did not come right at him. 

[jvan1973]

37 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

THAT IS WHY U DO NOT PAY A GUARD 20 MILLION A YEAR!!I TOLD U SO AND EVERYONE WAS LIKE HE IS GENERATIONAL. HE MAKES THE LINE BETTER. HE MAKES THE LEFT TACKLE POSITION BETTER. BALLARD SAID HE IS A TRANSCEDENT PLAYER. THE ONLY THING GENERATIONAL AND/OR TRANSCDENT BOUT HIM IS HIS CONTRACT. CAPS FOR EFFECT AND I TOLD EVERYONE DO NOT SIGN HIM AND WAIT TILL END OF YEAR . MY LAST POST EVER ON NELSON LOL!!!

Doubt it.    

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

On 10/7/2022 at 12:47 PM, Mitch Connors said:

The thing about sports contracts is that the player isn't being paid for what he's done, he's being paid for what he will do. 

 

It's early in the season, its a group problem (not just Nelson), and its presumably fixable BUT if this continues we certainly wont be getting our moneys worth by paying for the best guard in the league. 

i dont care what ballard pays his o-line, its not my money, i would just like to see an average or above o-line

[Goatface Killah]

58 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

That's kind of a dumb video. He basically  blind sided him and did not come right at him. 

He was holding him as well.

 

3 hours ago, w87r said:

Well it was like 5 plays or something, but who cares.

 

DJ is a Bucs fan who watches the team every week, apparently very closely. Close enough to catch this montage of horrible play from this 1 game. Clearly the guy is fed up with what he is seeing, and is posting proof of what he is saying. For him to say he is unplayable right now, that isn't just some single game rant.

 

Bowles is even having to answer questions about if White should be benched. Backed his player, but still getting asked the question.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/10/29/todd-bowles-defends-devin-whites-performance/

 

 

Anyway saw that article earlier and made me think of this conversation. Thought it would be insightful to see why he potentially could be getting low PFF scores. Video says it all, if that is any indication of how he has been playing. National TV performance, usually players get up even more for those games. 

 

You asked if I watched. I had before, but this was first time since then I have had the chance to watch him closely. I came away very unimpressed with the performance. 

 

 

Then you said you hadn't heard anyone say that about White.(one of worst LBs in League) Unplayable seems to be pretty close. And that's a Bucs fan saying that about his own guy.

 

Anyway I'm not here to convince you of anything. Just dropped the clip to check out as it made me think about this conversation.

 

Clearly you didn't even watch it though.

To be fair, I dont do twitter. 

 

But I did watch it. He got held and driven back about 15 yards. He looked like he was loafing on another play. I just dont think its that odd and I dont think that is characteristic of him as a player.  On the play itself where he gets blocked.......I feel like I see that same thing happen to Leonard from time to time. And if someone suggested he was "unplayable" because of a bad game, I would think it was just as ridiculous. Great players have bad moments.

 

He also had 10 tackles in that game. I dont think youre telling the entire story if you dont also mention that. 

 

Is it possible that this particular Bucs fan is just upset his team stinks this year and is looking for someone to unload on? 

 

In the video you posted, he is clearly getting held by a really good center who also outweighs him by 50 lbs. He got beat on that play. It happens. In the other play, that was a pretty poor effort, I agree. But was he gassed out? Is he hurt? Maybe there is an explanation? 

 

Wade Phillips also spoke out about Devin Whites performance and offered a different take, suggesting Vita Vea was partially to blame because he wasnt keeping White clean and allowing the OL to reach the 2nd level and block White. Maybe he was gassed out from fighting with 300lb men all game? Idk?

 

I think its ok to just give the other guy credit once in awhile. Thats something I rarely see. Sometimes you just have to accept the other team gets paid too and beat you.

 

 

 

 

[Happy2BeHere]

I think we overpaid Nelson…but then again I think nearly all of these players are overpaid.

[EastStreet]

On 10/7/2022 at 12:08 PM, Rhodelesstraveled said:

Q is a bad OG now and his pay will set the roster rebuild.  I am for dumping him immediately for a LT or draft pick right now.

 

Our OL Coach sucks....

Every vet we have regressed... 

 

When do you recall the last time our OL fired off the line and went man/power/angle blocking, instead of zone scheme. That's all on Reich/Strausser (play calls / and scheme)...

[KB]

All this get rid of Q talk got me thinking about the line prior to his arrival. They were absolutely terrible. Before him was Jack Mewhort. Not terrible at LG, but certainly not great. Samson Setelle at C and Hugh thorton at RG... I don't want to talk about them any further. AC at LT which was the best spot consistently until the end. I don't remember who we were using at RT.

 

I say that to ask this. Which line was worse and which positions are better now vs then? I say except for LT (obviously) we are better across the board. I've havnt been a fan of Kelly for a few years now but he can't be worse than Satelle. A ham sandwich is better than Satelle tho.

[w87r]

6 hours ago, Goatface Killah said:

He was holding him as well.

 

To be fair, I dont do twitter. 

 

But I did watch it. He got held and driven back about 15 yards. He looked like he was loafing on another play. I just dont think its that odd and I dont think that is characteristic of him as a player.  On the play itself where he gets blocked.......I feel like I see that same thing happen to Leonard from time to time. And if someone suggested he was "unplayable" because of a bad game, I would think it was just as ridiculous. Great players have bad moments.

 

He also had 10 tackles in that game. I dont think youre telling the entire story if you dont also mention that. 

 

Is it possible that this particular Bucs fan is just upset his team stinks this year and is looking for someone to unload on? 

 

In the video you posted, he is clearly getting held by a really good center who also outweighs him by 50 lbs. He got beat on that play. It happens. In the other play, that was a pretty poor effort, I agree. But was he gassed out? Is he hurt? Maybe there is an explanation? 

 

Wade Phillips also spoke out about Devin Whites performance and offered a different take, suggesting Vita Vea was partially to blame because he wasnt keeping White clean and allowing the OL to reach the 2nd level and block White. Maybe he was gassed out from fighting with 300lb men all game? Idk?

 

I think its ok to just give the other guy credit once in awhile. Thats something I rarely see. Sometimes you just have to accept the other team gets paid too and beat you.

 

 

 

 

Great post 

 

Appreciate it.

[Moosejawcolt]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Our OL Coach sucks....

Every vet we have regressed... 

 

When do you recall the last time our OL fired off the line and went man/power/angle blocking, instead of zone scheme. That's all on Reich/Strausser (play calls / and scheme)...

Then once again.  Irsay has been around. He sees the limitations with Wentz and now Ryan. However, he can't see all this and simply demand a new Oline coach ? Doesn't make sense. He has more money tied up in the Oline than in the qb position.  I guess than I shouldn't trust Irsay when it comes to anything.

[Moosejawcolt]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Our OL Coach sucks....

Every vet we have regressed... 

 

When do you recall the last time our OL fired off the line and went man/power/angle blocking, instead of zone scheme. That's all on Reich/Strausser (play calls / and scheme)...

Also Q had been all pro 4 years straight but now u r saying they have been regressing for years now. Hmmmmm.