Taylor's Limitations=Colts Limitations Possible Solution

[compuls1v3]

I will say this.  I don’t know ANY RB that doesn’t have good o line play, and gets met in the backfield by defenders, that will do well.

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

See this is where you and I will just disagree.  I don’t think overall stats tell the full story in the least here.  
 

Our run game and offense was pedestrian in the first month and change of the season for the obvious reason that our line was in shambles.  JT actually had less ypc than Hines And Mack.  This isn’t debatable it’s fact.  What is debatable is what that tells us.  I think it’s solid evidence that JT is more dependent on line play at the LOS than other great backs.  He has great jump cuts and other one cut type moves when running downhill but isn’t creative laterally .  You and I agreed during arguments last season that we needed to get him going downhill IIRc.  There is reasonable debate here.  It could be something else that caused him to not produce like he did like play calls etc. I just don’t think so.

 

in the middle half or so of the games, the line was run blocking at an every proficient level, JT was sometimes getting huge holes and other times finding cracks and seems and seeing cut back lanes and just went off.  I was still skeptical until the BuffAlo game because he really hadn’t dominated v a very good defense until then. From then I changed my mind about the dude and thought maybe you could after all contend with smashmouth football.  But then starting with NE even though we won, the offense really struggled after the 2nd drive until JT run of the year when he cut back on a devestated Hightower.  Awesome cutback then the jets .

 

but in the last month the offense wasn’t very good and JT got most of his production on a handful of runs.  I think defensive adjustments were made and teams tried to force the Colts to beat them other ways.  I still can’t figure out how they beat AZ.  That was wild.  But we didn’t have a good offensive day v. NE either passing or running until JTs last run it was great but I don’t think it’s a sustainable model for a true contender.  Run the 1st 28 times for 102 yds with no passing game, then win the game with a 68 yd run.

 

Then you had AZ and after the 1st 43 yard run, JT had 26 other carries for 65 yards.  Somehow CW made a couple late plays and we won.  

Then the last two losses didn’t feature a JT super long run and the offense was inadequate.

 

I would suspect that most of JTs average in the c gaps and outside were from a few of these long runs.  While most of the plays gained very little.  In many games we weren’t a great offense whether it’s Frank’s play calls like you think or limited weapons like I think or whatever combination it is.

 

what the point of this thread is, stems from an idea that we didn’t really threaten teams running wide consistently despite a few long runs and we didn’t threaten much outside the numbers intermediate  at all in the passing game or even very often in the flats or over the top.

 

Frank or CW, lack of weapons, pass blocking or all of the above.

 

so the whole point of this topic was from an idea I had discussed with someone on here about the organization wide votes of no confident in CW this week.

 

Without the likely ability with limited draft capital and trade pieces to shore up what I believe to be holes in the roster, was that maybe quick fix to in my mind accentuate Taylor’s threat running downhill would be to get a zone read true RP0 guy to pull some of those handoffs to JT when he sees the ends and OLBs pinching and Safeties drifting down, get some  real chunk plays that way.

 

Chances are we will run pretty much the same guys next year.  9 and 8 is 9 and 8, and I really do believe you are what your record says you are at the end.

 

I think Wentz is unlikely to figure it out in his age 30 year, and he was trashed by the org basically. He seems somewhat weak between the earholes.  The more I watch the guy, the talent just doesn’t out weigh the wires decisions IMO.
 

 If they decide to go with someone else I think this would be  Unique.  Zone read with a back as dangerous as JT and a healthy line that run blocks as well as ours.

 

 

Not sure how you talk yourself into things, but you're missing the boat here.

 

JT's success rate (over average) is significantly over average in every gap except runs over Fisher. He's even 15% better over Glow than average lol.... 

 

Success rate is not yards per carry average, it's if you succeed on any carry over average.

 

And if you want to compare JT vs like for instance Chubb, JT kills Chubb significantly in directional success rate every gap by LT/L-Edge. Again, not an avg that can be skewed, just pure success rate per attempt. 

[EastStreet]

36 minutes ago, Nickster said:

rivers through very catchable balls to his receivers his entire career.  He had a lot to do with Taylor and Hines production in the passing game.  He made receiving stars out of RBs his while time in the league.  Only one close to him is ole TB in this area.

Yup, Rivers is one of the exceptions, not really the rule. He's one of the best ever in reading Ds, throwing quick/short. It's really not fair for everyone to compare him to Wentz in that area. 

 

I'd be lazy though if I didn't point out that Pittman's catch% and passer rating when targeted actually improved with Wentz over Rivers... 

[coltsfan_canada]

20 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup, Rivers is one of the exceptions, not really the rule. He's one of the best ever in reading Ds, throwing quick/short. It's really not fair for everyone to compare him to Wentz in that area. 

 

I'd be lazy though if I didn't point out that Pittman's catch% and passer rating when targeted actually improved with Wentz over Rivers... 

I m sure he was better with Wentz but also I have to say he aint rookie anymore but sure we need another WR with him n move TY to slot n I think we can be killer even with Wentz.

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, coltsfan_canada said:

I m sure he was better with Wentz but also I have to say he aint rookie anymore but sure we need another WR with him n move TY to slot n I think we can be killer even with Wentz.

 

I think Pittman simply matches up well with Caron's style. Carson is a level 2 and 3 guy. That's what Pittman was in college. But Pittman can be successful L1-3... 

 

TY isn't really given L2 or 3 routes much anymore. He's still capable. Tired of the L1 flat and sideline possession stuff for him.

[Nickster]

5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Not sure how you talk yourself into things, but you're missing the boat here.

 

JT's success rate (over average) is significantly over average in every gap except runs over Fisher. He's even 15% better over Glow than average lol.... 

 

Success rate is not yards per carry average, it's if you succeed on any carry over average.

 

And if you want to compare JT vs like for instance Chubb, JT kills Chubb significantly in directional success rate every gap by LT/L-Edge. Again, not an avg that can be skewed, just pure success rate per attempt. 

so what was Taylor’s success rate in the 1st 6 games and the last four when we struggled?  What do we do when teams contain him well enough or the line lays an egg?
 

 

I’m talking about threatening zones outside the C gap East so it ain’t that hard to talk myself into it.  When you say running wide you interpret that to include C Gap while I am saying the C gap is the middle of the field for the purposes of trying to discuss a way for a team that is limited at QB and pass catcher. I’m talking about consistent running threats wide.  I can tell you this, DCs aren’t spending much time worrying about TAylor bouncing the ball outside.  They are worried about him killing them downhill.

 

An occasional jet sweep or reverse is fine but these are gimmicks that help but aren’t going to be the overall answer.  
 

The thing is is that we had the best RB in the league by far this year and ultimately we were barely average.  I still think RBs by themselves are way less important and Dont move the needle like QBs and pass catchers and LTs.  So does almost every Organization in the league.  RB is one of the lowest paid positions in the NFL.  Tennessee were 6-2 with Henry and 6-3 without.  There’s not much difference there.  The evidence doesn’t point strongly to Henry being essential to Titan success.

 

I think for the Colts to really maximize their chances with JT as the best player, they need something else.  Maybe the current crop of players headed by CW develop into a better offense but I think that’s unlikely.  Wentz might figure it out, some guys do much later but again if the organization are confident of that they had a funny way of showing it.

[dw49]

12 hours ago, Nickster said:

LT RT zones are not the plays I’m referring to.  The wide ness comes after the LOs on those types of runs.

 

Not what the thread is about.  If your annoyed the feel free not to respond.

 

You're thread annoys me and if I choose to respond , I'll do so. Furthermore the thread title is Taylor Linitations and you talk about his "limitations." You site deficiencies in the passing game and an inability to bounce outside. He IMO is not "limited " in the pass game and has plenty of speed to get to the corner. Not an intelligent thread IMO.

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

You're thread annoys me and if I choose to respond , I'll do so. Furthermore the thread title is Taylor Linitations and you talk about his "limitations." You site deficiencies in the passing game and an inability to bounce outside. He IMO is not "limited " in the pass game and has plenty of speed to get to the corner. Not an intelligent thread IMO.

Your opinion is duly noted.

[dw49]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

Your opinion is duly noted.

 

Thank you.

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, dw49 said:

 

Thank you.

Listen I know the way the thread title comes off to some people but I don’t care.  I think it’s funny when people get annoyed about some anonymous dudes post on a football message board. It was intentional.  That’s why I said clickbait.

 

what I was really interested in is if anyone else thinks we might be able to make our offense less one dimensional with a running QB especially 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Taylor is the least of our problems - Taylor is a top 10 player in the league. Saying Taylor has weaknesses is like saying Jim Brown fumbled too much because he had 57 in his career in 9 years and E. Smith only had 61 in 15 years.

[Nickster]

Jim brown played in a era when a RB could run a team to a championship.  It’s been decades since that was the case.  So what I am saying is nothing like that.

 

the story here is more about how can the Colts become a better offense with the current situation.  All players are limited.  I think the Offense is at a ceiling unless something else happens and I don’t think it’s likely CW is going to,elevate the team next year with what I’ve seen from him and our need of an an LT and weapons with little draft capital and retirements etc.  the Eagles finished better without him and the Colts finished worse.  He seems to have regressed when it mattered. There are always other factors but CW did not seem to elevate the team even with the JT numbers.

 

to me it’s clear the team isn’t good enough to be contenders and too good to suck for a Luck type of draft pick.  This is a purgatory that can  lead to perpetual mediocrity.

 

part of why I thought of a running QB even though it’s against my nature is because Taylor is so good at threatening the box.  That and the CW organizational sling under the bus this week.

 

I didn’t say Taylor was our issue, I am wondering what else we can do when he’s boxed up most of the time like he was the last month.  We didn’t have much of a plan B other than a blocked punt TD and homerun with 2minutws like v NE and a couple of CW hero throws like in Az.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

Jim brown played in a era when a RB could run a team to a championship.  It’s been decades since that was the case.  So what I am saying is nothing like that.

 

the story here is more about how can the Colts become a better offense with the current situation.  All players are limited.  I think the Offense is at a ceiling unless something else happens and I don’t think it’s likely CW is going to,elevate the team next year with what I’ve seen from him and our need of an an LT and weapons with little draft capital and retirements etc.  the Eagles finished better without him and the Colts finished worse.  He seems to have regressed when it mattered. There are always other factors but CW did not seem to elevate the team even with the JT numbers.

 

to me it’s clear the team isn’t good enough to be contenders and too good to suck for a Luck type of draft pick.  This is a purgatory that can  lead to perpetual mediocrity.

 

part of why I thought of a running QB even though it’s against my nature is because Taylor is so good at threatening the box.  That and the CW organizational sling under the bus this week.

 

I didn’t say Taylor was our issue, I am wondering what else we can do when he’s boxed up most of the time like he was the last month.  We didn’t have much of a plan B other than a blocked punt TD and homerun with 2minutws like v NE and a couple of CW hero throws like in Az.

If we had better QB play we would be at least 12-5 because we have Taylor and players like Leonard, put Russ on this team for example (12-5 easily). We will never reach the level you or our fans want with someone like a Wentz, Jimmy G, Hurts, Baker, Tannehill - just using examples. We need a QB that is consistently good to win a SB. 2014 or 2018 Luck could win a SB with this team. We either need to get lucky and draft the right one or sell the farm and get Russ or Rodgers but keep our main pieces like Taylor, Leonard, Nelson, Defo, and Moore. I see no other way around it. Only way we win a SB with Wentz is if we have a defense like the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens had. - That won't happen.

[Nickster]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If we had better QB play we would be at least 12-5 because we have Taylor and players like Leonard, put Russ on this team for example (12-5 easily). We will never reach the level you or our fans want with someone like a Wentz, Jimmy G, Hurts, Baker, Tannehill - just using examples. We need a QB that is consistently good to win a SB. 2014 or 2018 Luck could win a SB with this team. We either need to get lucky and draft the right one or sell the farm and get Russ or Rodgers but keep our main pieces like Taylor, Leonard, Nelson, Defo, and Moore. I see no other way around it. Only way we win a SB with Wentz is if we have a defense like the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens had. - That won't happen.

That’s what I’m saying.  Not sure we are going to get mulch more out of Wentz.

 

we wer 11-5 last year and finished strong almost taking down a good BUFF on the road.  
 

What was the difference?

[FuedinHatfield]

17 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

The man gets 50 out of 50 votes for the All Pro team and we have a thread about his "limitations." To be it's ridiculous and annoying. 

The only limitation he has is a quarterback who can't complete a pass and keep the defense from stacking the box.

[Four2itus]

 

Taylor's limitations?

 

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

 

Taylor's limitations?

 

 

 

Did you see the bags he bought for the OL?

Totally a bad gift picker outer. 

[Jason_]

5 hours ago, Nickster said:

Listen I know the way the thread title comes off to some people but I don’t care.  I think it’s funny when people get annoyed about some anonymous dudes post on a football message board. It was intentional.  That’s why I said clickbait.

 

what I was really interested in is if anyone else thinks we might be able to make our offense less one dimensional with a running QB especially 

 

Which is called baiting, which is against the forums terms of service. 

 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, J@son said:

 

Which is called baiting, which is against the forums terms of service. 

 

Oh good god.  I do think the dude isn’t particularly efficient at attacking the edges with wide runs or bounce plays of defenses that is a limitation and that our offense is very limited because it’s easy to pinch on us because the QB LT and pass catchers.
 

some of you u guys take stuff a little too seriously.  The thread is about the Colts limitations and a possible solution given the orgs limited resources at this point in time.

[bluephantom87]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:30 PM, Rhodelesstraveled said:

Mariota had Henry was garbage.  Hard pass.  I think Foles with Reich is a way better option.  It means you have to move on from Wentz however.  

False narrative. Henry started off as backup to the then declining DeMarco Murray for his first couple of seasons then split time with Dion after that. So Mariota didn’t get the luxury of Henry as we know him now.

 

Mariota was used A LOT as a runner at qb (almost primary) with designed plays in their RUN first scheme which led to his injuries as time went on. This was a far cry from his passing stats in college as the Heisman trophy winner and a qb that led his team to a national title game. Don't forget he went to a Titans team that had won a TOTAL of 5 games COMBINED in 2 seasons and led them to 3 straight winning seasons including a playoff berth. He set an nfl record with a perfect passer rating in his nfl debut as a rookie. Mariota has accounted for over 90 tds (nearly 80 through the air against a little over 40 ints mostly on a team that didn’t pass) Not bad for a qb that's garbage!!

 

By the way the qb who has GREATLY benefited from Henry is Tanny. Who by the way was ran out of Miami for his BAD qb play. Tanny has looked above avg with King Henry which earned him a big time contract from feasting off the play action pass. When Henry is out Tanny looks his usual below avg self.

[Nickster]

34 minutes ago, bluephantom87 said:

False narrative. Henry started off as backup to the then declining DeMarco Murray for his first couple of seasons then split time with Dion after that. So Mariota didn’t get the luxury of Henry as we know him now.

 

Mariota was used A LOT as a runner at qb (almost primary) with designed plays in their RUN first scheme which led to his injuries as time went on. This was a far cry from his passing stats in college as the Heisman trophy winner and a qb that led his team to a national title game. Don't forget he went to a Titans team that had won a TOTAL of 5 games COMBINED in 2 seasons and led them to 3 straight winning seasons including a playoff berth. He set an nfl record with a perfect passer rating in his nfl debut as a rookie. Mariota has accounted for over 90 tds (nearly 80 through the air against a little over 40 ints mostly on a team that didn’t pass) Not bad for a qb that's garbage!!

 

By the way the qb who has GREATLY benefited from Henry is Tanny. Who by the way was ran out of Miami for his BAD qb play. Tanny has looked above avg with King Henry which earned him a big time contract from feasting off the play action pass. When Henry is out Tanny looks his usual below avg self.

I never liked him because I never liked running QBs, but a guy like that might open up the Colts offense.  I think he could threaten more zones than CW.   That’s what I have been trying to advocate for.  Mariota with TAylor could be good.  Henry wasn’t the lead back most of MMs tenure.  Murray was a hard downhill runner but wasn’t the threat Taylor was and TN win a playoff game 

 

I don’t think a team has paired a weapon like JT with a zone read guy and a run blocking line like the Colts.  Mariota was decent his first couple years.  
 

people underestimate Tannehill.  He’s a good top 10 type of QB.  He’s close to elite.  I bet people don’t realize his productive  he was at MIA.  He was a better option on a team with a real weapons when he came in over Mariota.  He was good for a very unstable MIami team.  iIRC there was some sort of personality rumor or something but he’s always been productive.  He missed a season and a half there too.

 

 

[Nickster]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I never liked him because I never liked running QBs, but a guy like that might open up the Colts offense.  I think he could threaten more zones than CW.   That’s what I have been trying to advocate for.  Mariota with TAylor could be good.  Henry wasn’t the lead back most of MMs tenure.  Murray was a hard downhill runner but wasn’t the threat Taylor was and TN win a playoff game 

 

I don’t think a team has paired a weapon like JT with a zone read guy and a run blocking line like the Colts.  Mariota was decent his first couple years.  
 

people underestimate Tannehill.  He’s a good top 10 type of QB.  He’s close to elite.  I bet people don’t realize his productive  he was at MIA.  He was a better option on a team with a real weapons when he came in over Mariota.  He was good for a very unstable MIami team.  iIRC there was some sort of personality rumor or something but he’s always been productive.  He missed a season and half to injury.

 

 

 

[Jason_]

50 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Oh good god.  I do think the dude isn’t particularly efficient at attacking the edges with wide runs or bounce plays of defenses that is a limitation and that our offense is very limited because it’s easy to pinch on us because the QB LT and pass catchers.
 

some of you u guys take stuff a little too seriously.  The thread is about the Colts limitations and a possible solution given the orgs limited resources at this point in time.

 

None of that has anything to do with my post

 

Like it or don't, I was just pointing out that what you did and seemed proud of was technically against the TOS.  I didn't report the post to mods or anything like that, though I could have just for craps and giggles. ;) 

 

Also, your reaction to me pointing that out shows that you don't like being baited anymore than anyone else so maybe don't dish it out if you can't take it.  

 

Mission accomplished lol 

[Nickster]

19 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

None of that has anything to do with my post

 

Like it or don't, I was just pointing out that what you did and seemed proud of was technically against the TOS.  I didn't report the post to mods or anything like that, though I could have just for craps and giggles. ;) 

 

Also, your reaction to me pointing that out shows that you don't like being baited anymore than anyone else so maybe don't dish it out if you can't take it.  

 

Mission accomplished lol 

Nice work dude.    

[Malakai432]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:42 PM, Flash7 said:

We're a funny bunch.

 

JT leads the league in rushing TDs and rushing yards.

 

Yeah, but did he bounce it outside?

 

It's like: Steph Curry sets the NBA record for 3-pointers. Yeah, but did he do a 360 windmill tomahawk dunk?

 

Maybe they're extremely good at what they do? Sure they could do other things better, but we're being critical of the best player on the team, which is fine on a forum I guess. It's just funny is all.

Right, it’s pretty obvious to the entire world the team would be absolute garbage, all things equal without Taylor.

[bluephantom87]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:47 PM, NewColtsFan said:

Im not 100 percent sure that I understand your post.   So I’ll react to what I think you’re saying.

 

First, I don’t believe FR and CB want that type of QB.   You want some of that RPO in your offense, but only so much.   The more important aspect we need is a QB who can read defenses and pass more and more effectively.   
 

Second, an offense led by Mariotta risks what all offenses led by a more Tebow like QB risk….  That the QB gets hurt, and then what?
See Lamar Jackson this year.   See RG3,  See Tua.    See others.   Sooner or later you’re putting the most important player at MUCH higher risk.    And then you’ve blown up your offense.   
 

Third, if you go with a QB like that, then you also have to have a backup like that.  Otherwise, your offense changes any time your starter goes out.  Baltimore thinks/hopes they got their right backup this year with Huntley. 
 

Fourth,  can Mariotta throw effectively enough?   And can he do it from the pocket?   Frank and Chris believe that ultimately, the QB must win from the pocket.  You have to make winning plays from the pocket.  That’s NFL Big Boy football.   
 

Hope this was a response to what I thought you asked.  Otherwise………….

 

 

I think Mariota has been WRONGLY mislabeled as being a run only qb who can't throw from the pocket simply because he was drafted by a team that PRIMARILY used him as a runner. Mariota in high school and college was a PASSING qb with a nice arm who COULD run thus making him a dual threat. Once drafted by the woeful Titans his WHOLE narrative changed because of HOW they USED him or some might even say MISUSED him with the constant DESIGNED roll outs outside the pocket. The Titans were a run oriented offense that lacked an adequate passing game or receivers. The scheme was lackluster and called on Mariota to make plays with his legs which in turn led to his injuries as time wore on. See Lamar Jackson as I stated in another post.

 

Mariota has talent and could be a nice stop gap or maybe even a qb1 on the right team that will ALLOW him to showcase his ARM. I still remember how god awful Kurt Warner looked on that Giants team that lacked a passing game or o-line after leaving the Rams. His narrative was that he was done. That his SUCCESS with the Rams was based solely on the scheme and the very talented weapons that SURROUNDED him in which he greatly benefited. That ALL changed once he went to the Cardinals and CONFIRMED his HOF career.

 

It does matter WHAT team drafts or picks you up. Will they put you in a situation to succeed? Ask ANY passing qb what their numbers looked like under say a Jeff Fisher type. Steve McNair EARNED the nickname "Air McNair" in college by shattering numerous passing records yet under Fisher was known as a tough, gritty, running qb who COULD throw when necessary. Wow

[throwing BBZ]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:38 PM, Nickster said:

Oh I agree .  How likely is it we get that talent this year?

 

 Oh, about 50 times more likely than what you have been postulizing.

Please do NOT go on how you think Frank, Brady, our line coach, the other position coaches, would all be good coaching up your offense. They have the Right Stuff! So change whatever we must, and just grab any number of Nicks available fine running QB's to lead us Somewhere THIS YEAR?

 What you "don't see" is we have all kinds of things to "fix" for next year on both sides of the ball. Like every year. 
 Please go back and keep watching Warners breakdown of WENTZ as many    times as it takes to figure it out that we did have the receivers open enough to pressure the D with the passing game.

 And That FB 101 SUCCESS would have put your statistical argument in the dumpster where it belongs.

 One thing i see as certain, Irsay, Ballard, and Reich are looking pretty stupid regarding Jacoby and Wentz. We ARE NOT at all looking like a "Next Year" team. So what's the ... Rush?
 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Oh, about 50 times more likely than what you have been postulizing.

Please do NOT go on how you think Frank, Brady, our line coach, the other position coaches, would all be good coaching up your offense. They have the Right Stuff! So change whatever we must, and just grab any number of Nicks available fine running QB's to lead us Somewhere THIS YEAR?

 What you "don't see" is we have all kinds of things to "fix" for next year on both sides of the ball. Like every year. 
 Please go back and keep watching Warners breakdown of WENTZ as many    times as it takes to figure it out that we did have the receivers open enough to pressure the D with the passing game.

 And That FB 101 SUCCESS would have put your statistical argument in the dumpster where it belongs.

 One thing i see as certain, Irsay, Ballard, and Reich are looking pretty stupid regarding Jacoby and Wentz. We ARE NOT at all looking like a "Next Year" team. So what's the ... Rush?
 

Oh I see all the holes on the roster.  And zone read isn’t a really difficult play to coach, it relies on the QBs read and reaction to basically one factor and to be dangerous his speed and agility.

 

QBs are hard to find man.  

 

I don’t think we are contenders talent wise either.  Yeah Wentz looks like a bust overall to me too.  There is top tier talent there but I think it’s a mental makeup thing. I never watched him at Phil, and there have been line, injury, and Covid problems, but he looks busty to me.

 

Couldn’t believe the org paid Brisett what they did.  That dude must really be funny or something.  Everyone raved about his character.

 

The rush would only be that our best player is a RB and those guys have notoriously short shelf lives.  and I don’t think it’s been tried with a player like Taylor and an interior line and RT as highly paid as ours.

 

I am not optimistic about the near future of the team.  Too many holes in places that matter most and not much capital left in the tank and no real trade assets other than Taylor on a rookie contract.  There was a lot of adversity though and we used the Bills at the place they just embarrassed a playoff team.  So there’s hope everything comes together, But I think we will be looking at another rebuild and complete regime change in  a couple years.
 

 

[Nickster]

Looks like the Colts saw what Nickster saw several months too late, lol. 

[DougDew]

25 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Looks like the Colts saw what Nickster saw several months too late, lol. 

How so?  

 

I think the oline regression has put a damper on significant comparison of JT now and then.

 

 

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

How so?  

 

I think the oline regression has put a damper on significant comparison of JT now and then.

 

 

 

They are using a guy who runs zone read. 

 

But yeah, the OLINE doesn't look like the great run blocking unit from last year. 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

10 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

They are using a guy who runs zone read. 

 

But yeah, the OLINE doesn't look like the great run blocking unit from last year. 

spot on. nickster for next gm, serious!!!!!

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

 

They are using a guy who runs zone read. 

 

But yeah, the OLINE doesn't look like the great run blocking unit from last year. 

They kinda got their Mariota now......but Sam isn't that great of a runner...shhhh.  He's going to run some of those plays, but he has got to make a living throwing the ball and moving around the pocket.

 

Still don't think JT is going to be running wide very much and turning the corner.

[Nickster]

50 minutes ago, DougDew said:

They kinda got their Mariota now......but Sam isn't that great of a runner...shhhh.  He's going to run some of those plays, but he has got to make a living throwing the ball and moving around the pocket.

 

Still don't think JT is going to be running wide very much and turning the corner.

See that was the point of this thread last year.  The QB can attack the edges not JT.
 

 We ran zone read it I’d say at least 5 times last week.  I think Sam pulled it a couple of times.

 

Sam ran for almost 2000 yds in college.  I don’t know the nature of those runs, but almost everyone in college does zone read plays.

 

you don’t think he’ll run much?

[IndyColtsFan411]

I have been hammering this thought as much as I can, but... why don't the Colts run the stretch play like they did w/ Edge?  It's obvious the Colts are having trouble blocking straight up this year (a discussion for later).  So, get Q, Pinter (replace Kelly until he gets healthy mentally and physically) and a big TE (J Woods) to pull left or right and stretch the play.  It will thin out the defense against the OL, and JT can then pick a hole and run downhill.  JMO

[DougDew]

52 minutes ago, Nickster said:

See that was the point of this thread last year.  The QB can attack the edges not JT.
 

 We ran zone read it I’d say at least 5 times last week.  I think Sam pulled it a couple of times.

 

Sam ran for almost 2000 yds in college.  I don’t know the nature of those runs, but almost everyone in college does zone read plays.

 

you don’t think he’ll run much?

Ah, got it.  Your zone read idea is because JT is not great at turning the corner.  Makes sense now.

 

IDK how much Sam will run.  I'm saying that I don't think he is as good at it as a typical "running" QB usually is.  We should do it, but I think he's still going to have to be a pass first QB.  When I think of a zone read offense, I think of a running QB that passes, and he needs to be the opposite

 

  

[Stephen]

37 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Ah, got it.  Your zone read idea is because JT is not great at turning the corner.  Makes sense now.

 

IDK how much Sam will run.  I'm saying that I don't think he is as good at it as a typical "running" QB usually is.  We should do it, but I think he's still going to have to be a pass first QB.  When I think of a zone read offense, I think of a running QB that passes, and he needs to be the opposite

 

  

Yea he has to be mahomes lite

[LaundryBag]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:14 PM, Nickster said:

Clickbait here.  I hope some of you actually read and think about this post because I'm really interested in people's ideas about what me and another guy discussed.

 

He is better than I thought, but I still maintain he is not an all purpose back and he doesn't threaten wide in the running game.  He can tear it up with the speed between the tackles when the line opens holes and is seeing cutback cracks at a level I didn't think he'd be able to when he was a rookie and  in the 1st few games this yearwith the line is shambles.  He's also good at catching a swing pass and getting downhill.  He's a downhill guy and isn't very good at bouncing or being creative in the run game or in pass routes.  He is a killer between the tackles and on a swing but pedestrian outside the tackle box and in more complex patterns.   He's a homerun hitter.  I didn't think you could compete with smashmouth in the NFL until Buffalo, but I definitely think it is what helped our offense be so pedestrian the last month.  I'm sure plenty of people will be some "offended" by this but it seems pretty evident to me.  Here is some "evidence" of JT/Colt limitations. 

 

JT had long run on the last play v. NE to seal the game and the 1st play of the game the next week v. AZ with the back up linemen and a couple nice 20+ runs in the other two games over the last month although the one v. Jax was garbage time.   JT gained 463 yds on 91 carries for a seemingly robust 5.1 ypc in the last 4 games.  However if you take the longest run from each game JT had 306 yds on the other 87 carries for a poor ypc of 3.5 which leads to 3rd and long after 3rd and long.

 

3.5 ypc on 96% of your runs is not going to win you many football games.  

 

This is not necessarily JT's fault.  But the Colts limitations at WR (despite what Ballard has convinced himself IMO) and QB and possibly from Reich, make us a one dimensional a FB team offensively.  We don't threaten enough outside the tackle box and outside the numbers or in the flats.  We just don't.  Just pinching the middle worked to limit Colts' offensive effectiveness the last month it seems.  

 

SOOOO, I wonder if the Colts are considering a possible solution at QB of a guy who can run Zone Read and punish teams outside the tackle box when players crash in the middle, peeing down their legs, trying to contain JT.  I think this could be a short and possibly long term solution to what I think is a limited offensive talent pool overall.  I really don't like Mariota at all, but he or maybe a guy like that could really exploit different zones for this offense.  This is really what I want to discuss.  But I'd be happy to *ahem* debate any of the rest of my post.  I really think a QB who can hurt teams with QB runs and hit a decent flat pass could break the flood gates of this extremely limited offense, even if he had limited arm talent and/or reading ability.  There is a larger talent pool of guys like this than there is guys who can read a D and put the ball in the air where it needs to go.  I can't see a way of acquiring Wilson, that would be deadly IMO, but I think you can get a lesser guy that won't be too expensive to do this.

 

I've never been a fan of running being the primary weapon of a QB in this league, but it just might work with our strengths and JT's unique talent and the way our team is set up.   Not the old man of today, but a Tebow of 10 years ago or a  Lamar Jackson Lite type might be out their and open up this offense. 

 

What do you think?  Do you think it's possible to succeed on this O with a run first type of QB?  I personally do, and would really like to see us try.  I don't think we can improve the talent enough to see if Wentz can be effective at LT or pass catcher, but what I am proposing would make that unnecessary. 

I wish a Bryce Young like a DeShaun Watson without the baggage. But We won't have a high enough pick for him..

[compuls1v3]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:22 AM, chad72 said:

We don't use play action enough and involve our TEs enough in the passing game off play action or hit crossers off play action enough. Remember the Edge / Dilger / Pollard days when both TEs were used in the passing game. If we want to be dynamic, we need a QB that is good in the short to intermediate game with the ability to hit the occasional WR breaking open in a busted coverage due to play action.

 

So, in a nutshell, yes we can succeed with a run based O, with the right QB. Wentz's short to intermediate passing game deficiencies either have to improve dramatically or we need to find a QB that can do that while also incorporating our TEs in our passing game heavily with play action used. 49ers do it with a QB that rarely hits 40 yard bombs but is plenty accurate in the 10-20 yard range with plenty of YAC afterwards and featuring the running game and motion heavily.

Their D aint too shabby either.

[LaundryBag]

Should Colts try and use JT for a Herschel Walker blockbuster trade?? Stupid not to... IMO