Taylor's Limitations=Colts Limitations Possible Solution

[Nickster]

Clickbait here.  I hope some of you actually read and think about this post because I'm really interested in people's ideas about what me and another guy discussed.

 

He is better than I thought, but I still maintain he is not an all purpose back and he doesn't threaten wide in the running game.  He can tear it up with the speed between the tackles when the line opens holes and is seeing cutback cracks at a level I didn't think he'd be able to when he was a rookie and  in the 1st few games this yearwith the line is shambles.  He's also good at catching a swing pass and getting downhill.  He's a downhill guy and isn't very good at bouncing or being creative in the run game or in pass routes.  He is a killer between the tackles and on a swing but pedestrian outside the tackle box and in more complex patterns.   He's a homerun hitter.  I didn't think you could compete with smashmouth in the NFL until Buffalo, but I definitely think it is what helped our offense be so pedestrian the last month.  I'm sure plenty of people will be some "offended" by this but it seems pretty evident to me.  Here is some "evidence" of JT/Colt limitations. 

 

JT had long run on the last play v. NE to seal the game and the 1st play of the game the next week v. AZ with the back up linemen and a couple nice 20+ runs in the other two games over the last month although the one v. Jax was garbage time.   JT gained 463 yds on 91 carries for a seemingly robust 5.1 ypc in the last 4 games.  However if you take the longest run from each game JT had 306 yds on the other 87 carries for a poor ypc of 3.5 which leads to 3rd and long after 3rd and long.

 

3.5 ypc on 96% of your runs is not going to win you many football games.  

 

This is not necessarily JT's fault.  But the Colts limitations at WR (despite what Ballard has convinced himself IMO) and QB and possibly from Reich, make us a one dimensional a FB team offensively.  We don't threaten enough outside the tackle box and outside the numbers or in the flats.  We just don't.  Just pinching the middle worked to limit Colts' offensive effectiveness the last month it seems.  

 

SOOOO, I wonder if the Colts are considering a possible solution at QB of a guy who can run Zone Read and punish teams outside the tackle box when players crash in the middle, peeing down their legs, trying to contain JT.  I think this could be a short and possibly long term solution to what I think is a limited offensive talent pool overall.  I really don't like Mariota at all, but he or maybe a guy like that could really exploit different zones for this offense.  This is really what I want to discuss.  But I'd be happy to *ahem* debate any of the rest of my post.  I really think a QB who can hurt teams with QB runs and hit a decent flat pass could break the flood gates of this extremely limited offense, even if he had limited arm talent and/or reading ability.  There is a larger talent pool of guys like this than there is guys who can read a D and put the ball in the air where it needs to go.  I can't see a way of acquiring Wilson, that would be deadly IMO, but I think you can get a lesser guy that won't be too expensive to do this.

 

I've never been a fan of running being the primary weapon of a QB in this league, but it just might work with our strengths and JT's unique talent and the way our team is set up.   Not the old man of today, but a Tebow of 10 years ago or a  Lamar Jackson Lite type might be out their and open up this offense. 

 

What do you think?  Do you think it's possible to succeed on this O with a run first type of QB?  I personally do, and would really like to see us try.  I don't think we can improve the talent enough to see if Wentz can be effective at LT or pass catcher, but what I am proposing would make that unnecessary. 

[BlackTiger]

We probably shouldnt count on our offense revolving around a running back if we want to go far.  the passing scheme should be suited to whoever the qb is, kind of up in the air right now

 

 

[chad72]

We don't use play action enough and involve our TEs enough in the passing game off play action or hit crossers off play action enough. Remember the Edge / Dilger / Pollard days when both TEs were used in the passing game. If we want to be dynamic, we need a QB that is good in the short to intermediate game with the ability to hit the occasional WR breaking open in a busted coverage due to play action.

 

So, in a nutshell, yes we can succeed with a run based O, with the right QB. Wentz's short to intermediate passing game deficiencies either have to improve dramatically or we need to find a QB that can do that while also incorporating our TEs in our passing game heavily with play action used. 49ers do it with a QB that rarely hits 40 yard bombs but is plenty accurate in the 10-20 yard range with plenty of YAC afterwards and featuring the running game and motion heavily.

[Nickster]

4 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

We probably shouldnt count on our offense revolving around a running back if we want to go far.  the passing scheme should be suited to whoever the qb is, kind of up in the air right now

 

 

 

That's what I've thought in the past, but no one threatens downhill like JT, and I can't recall any of these running type of QBs having great RBs in the backfield.

 

I don't think we are close to getting an elite passer.  We'd have to get lucky with no first and little trade capital.  

[Nickster]

6 minutes ago, chad72 said:

We don't use play action enough and involve our TEs enough in the passing game off play action or hit crossers off play action enough. Remember the Edge / Dilger / Pollard days when both TEs were used in the passing game. If we want to be dynamic, we need a QB that is good in the short to intermediate game with the ability to hit the occasional WR breaking open in a busted coverage due to play action.

 

So, in a nutshell, yes, with the right QB. Wentz's short to intermediate passing game deficiencies either have to improve dramatically or we need to find a QB that can do that while also incorporating our TEs in our passing game heavily with play action used.

 

Yeah, I think Wentz needs weapons and even then, man a grown gluteus almost 30 year old man who keeps throw left handers and unscripted shovel passes doesn't inspire much confidence.  

 

We used quite a bit of PA early v Jax, but they didn't bite and just kept coming and smashed us.  I think PA would only work for us from under center, and even then CWs ball skills aren't great.  The PA you remember was from Peyton Manning and they had Marvin threatening deep and PM was the best I remember selling it not named Boomer.   Another thing that sold it was the stretch threat from Edgerrin, and JT hasn't shown much capacity for that type of play.

[Rhodelesstraveled]

14 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Clickbait here.  I hope some of you actually read and think about this post because I'm really interested in people's ideas about what me and another guy discussed.

 

He is better than I thought, but I still maintain he is not an all purpose back and he doesn't threaten wide in the running game.  He can tear it up with the speed between the tackles when the line opens holes and is seeing cutback cracks at a level I didn't think he'd be able to when he was a rookie and  in the 1st few games this yearwith the line is shambles.  He's also good at catching a swing pass and getting downhill.  He's a downhill guy and isn't very good at bouncing or being creative in the run game or in pass routes.  He is a killer between the tackles and on a swing but pedestrian outside the tackle box and in more complex patterns.   He's a homerun hitter.  I didn't think you could compete with smashmouth in the NFL until Buffalo, but I definitely think it is what helped our offense be so pedestrian the last month.  I'm sure plenty of people will be some "offended" by this but it seems pretty evident to me.  Here is some "evidence" of JT/Colt limitations. 

 

JT had long run on the last play v. NE to seal the game and the 1st play of the game the next week v. AZ with the back up linemen and a couple nice 20+ runs in the other two games over the last month although the one v. Jax was garbage time.   JT gained 463 yds on 91 carries for a seemingly robust 5.1 ypc in the last 4 games.  However if you take the longest run from each game JT had 306 yds on the other 87 carries for a poor ypc of 3.5 which leads to 3rd and long after 3rd and long.

 

3.5 ypc on 96% of your runs is not going to win you many football games.  

 

This is not necessarily JT's fault.  But the Colts limitations at WR (despite what Ballard has convinced himself IMO) and QB and possibly from Reich, make us a one dimensional a FB team offensively.  We don't threaten enough outside the tackle box and outside the numbers or in the flats.  We just don't.  Just pinching the middle worked to limit Colts' offensive effectiveness the last month it seems.  

 

SOOOO, I wonder if the Colts are considering a possible solution at QB of a guy who can run Zone Read and punish teams outside the tackle box when players crash in the middle, peeing down their legs, trying to contain JT.  I think this could be a short and possibly long term solution to what I think is a limited offensive talent pool overall.  I really don't like Mariota at all, but he or maybe a guy like that could really exploit different zones for this offense.  This is really what I want to discuss.  But I'd be happy to *ahem* debate any of the rest of my post.  I really think a QB who can hurt teams with QB runs and hit a decent flat pass could break the flood gates of this extremely limited offense, even if he had limited arm talent and/or reading ability.  There is a larger talent pool of guys like this than there is guys who can read a D and put the ball in the air where it needs to go.  I can't see a way of acquiring Wilson, that would be deadly IMO, but I think you can get a lesser guy that won't be too expensive to do this.

 

I've never been a fan of running being the primary weapon of a QB in this league, but it just might work with our strengths and JT's unique talent and the way our team is set up.   Not the old man of today, but a Tebow of 10 years ago or a  Lamar Jackson Lite type might be out their and open up this offense. 

 

What do you think?  Do you think it's possible to succeed on this O with a run first type of QB?  I personally do, and would really like to see us try.  I don't think we can improve the talent enough to see if Wentz can be effective at LT or pass catcher, but what I am proposing would make that unnecessary. 

Mariota had Henry was garbage.  Hard pass.  I think Foles with Reich is a way better option.  It means you have to move on from Wentz however.  

[chad72]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

Yeah, I think Wentz needs weapons and even then, man a grown gluteus almost 30 year old man who keeps throw left handers and unscripted shovel passes doesn't inspire much confidence.  

 

We used quite a bit of PA early v Jax, but they didn't bite and just kept coming and smashed us.  I think PA would only work for us from under center, and even then CWs ball skills aren't great.  The PA you remember was from Peyton Manning and they had Marvin threatening deep and PM was the best I remember selling it not named Boomer. 

 

What is the percentage we played under center versus shotgun for Wentz? Do you know?

 

If he can throw unscripted shovel passes as well as Mahomes, it might have worked but then you know...CW ain't Mahomes  

[DougDew]

I would have liked to have seen JT bounce it outside a few times on his own.  He has good visions and can make one guy miss, but he doesn't seem to want to deviate from between the tackles.

 

I know that Frank should call more outside plays with him, but good RBs sometimes do that on their own when they see the box stacked in the middle.

 

With his speed to the corner, he should look outside more.

 

[chad72]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I would have liked to have seen JT bounce it outside a few times on his own.  He has good visions and can make one guy miss, but he doesn't seem to want to deviate from between the tackles.

 

I know that Frank should call more outside plays with him, but good RBs sometimes do that on their own when they see the box stacked in the middle.

 

With his speed to the corner, he should look outside more.

 

 

Yes, that would be good for the element of surprise. However, most teams set the edge well enough that it can only be used as an element of surprise and not a staple. I do think it is more on play calling because we have good run blocking TEs in MAC and Doyle no matter which edge JT chooses if they are staying in to run block. 

[Flash7]

We're a funny bunch.

 

JT leads the league in rushing TDs and rushing yards.

 

Yeah, but did he bounce it outside?

 

It's like: Steph Curry sets the NBA record for 3-pointers. Yeah, but did he do a 360 windmill tomahawk dunk?

 

Maybe they're extremely good at what they do? Sure they could do other things better, but we're being critical of the best player on the team, which is fine on a forum I guess. It's just funny is all.

[NewColtsFan]

17 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Clickbait here.  I hope some of you actually read and think about this post because I'm really interested in people's ideas about what me and another guy discussed.

 

He is better than I thought, but I still maintain he is not an all purpose back and he doesn't threaten wide in the running game.  He can tear it up with the speed between the tackles when the line opens holes and is seeing cutback cracks at a level I didn't think he'd be able to when he was a rookie and  in the 1st few games this yearwith the line is shambles.  He's also good at catching a swing pass and getting downhill.  He's a downhill guy and isn't very good at bouncing or being creative in the run game or in pass routes.  He is a killer between the tackles and on a swing but pedestrian outside the tackle box and in more complex patterns.   He's a homerun hitter.  I didn't think you could compete with smashmouth in the NFL until Buffalo, but I definitely think it is what helped our offense be so pedestrian the last month.  I'm sure plenty of people will be some "offended" by this but it seems pretty evident to me.  Here is some "evidence" of JT/Colt limitations. 

 

JT had long run on the last play v. NE to seal the game and the 1st play of the game the next week v. AZ with the back up linemen and a couple nice 20+ runs in the other two games over the last month although the one v. Jax was garbage time.   JT gained 463 yds on 91 carries for a seemingly robust 5.1 ypc in the last 4 games.  However if you take the longest run from each game JT had 306 yds on the other 87 carries for a poor ypc of 3.5 which leads to 3rd and long after 3rd and long.

 

3.5 ypc on 96% of your runs is not going to win you many football games.  

 

This is not necessarily JT's fault.  But the Colts limitations at WR (despite what Ballard has convinced himself IMO) and QB and possibly from Reich, make us a one dimensional a FB team offensively.  We don't threaten enough outside the tackle box and outside the numbers or in the flats.  We just don't.  Just pinching the middle worked to limit Colts' offensive effectiveness the last month it seems.  

 

SOOOO, I wonder if the Colts are considering a possible solution at QB of a guy who can run Zone Read and punish teams outside the tackle box when players crash in the middle, peeing down their legs, trying to contain JT.  I think this could be a short and possibly long term solution to what I think is a limited offensive talent pool overall.  I really don't like Mariota at all, but he or maybe a guy like that could really exploit different zones for this offense.  This is really what I want to discuss.  But I'd be happy to *ahem* debate any of the rest of my post.  I really think a QB who can hurt teams with QB runs and hit a decent flat pass could break the flood gates of this extremely limited offense, even if he had limited arm talent and/or reading ability.  There is a larger talent pool of guys like this than there is guys who can read a D and put the ball in the air where it needs to go.  I can't see a way of acquiring Wilson, that would be deadly IMO, but I think you can get a lesser guy that won't be too expensive to do this.

 

I've never been a fan of running being the primary weapon of a QB in this league, but it just might work with our strengths and JT's unique talent and the way our team is set up.   Not the old man of today, but a Tebow of 10 years ago or a  Lamar Jackson Lite type might be out their and open up this offense. 

 

What do you think?  Do you think it's possible to succeed on this O with a run first type of QB?  I personally do, and would really like to see us try.  I don't think we can improve the talent enough to see if Wentz can be effective at LT or pass catcher, but what I am proposing would make that unnecessary. 

Im not 100 percent sure that I understand your post.   So I’ll react to what I think you’re saying.

 

First, I don’t believe FR and CB want that type of QB.   You want some of that RPO in your offense, but only so much.   The more important aspect we need is a QB who can read defenses and pass more and more effectively.   
 

Second, an offense led by Mariotta risks what all offenses led by a more Tebow like QB risk….  That the QB gets hurt, and then what?
See Lamar Jackson this year.   See RG3,  See Tua.    See others.   Sooner or later you’re putting the most important player at MUCH higher risk.    And then you’ve blown up your offense.   
 

Third, if you go with a QB like that, then you also have to have a backup like that.  Otherwise, your offense changes any time your starter goes out.  Baltimore thinks/hopes they got their right backup this year with Huntley. 
 

Fourth,  can Mariotta throw effectively enough?   And can he do it from the pocket?   Frank and Chris believe that ultimately, the QB must win from the pocket.  You have to make winning plays from the pocket.  That’s NFL Big Boy football.   
 

Hope this was a response to what I thought you asked.  Otherwise………….

 

 

[DougDew]

13 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Yes, that would be good for the element of surprise. However, most teams set the edge well enough that it can only be used as an element of surprise and not a staple. I do think it is more on play calling because we have good run blocking TEs in MAC and Doyle no matter which edge JT chooses if they are staying in to run block. 

I think OP was speaking about JTs improvisational abilities.  He doesn't seem to deviate from the plan even when the plan looks hopeless.  I think the 96% of runs having a 3.5 ypc speaks to the need for him to have good blocking to get anything positive.

 

All RBS need good blocking, but just comparing him to Najeem Harris or Josh Jacobs who have a little more of their rushing yards being more determined by their own abilities and not the quality of the oline.  JMO.

 

I don't agree with OPs thought of having a QB getting those edge yards.

[Nickster]

11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I would have liked to have seen JT bounce it outside a few times on his own.  He has good visions and can make one guy miss, but he doesn't seem to want to deviate from between the tackles.

 

I know that Frank should call more outside plays with him, but good RBs sometimes do that on their own when they see the box stacked in the middle.

 

With his speed to the corner, he should look outside more.

 

He's not great at lateral movement though.  He's not great at stop/start or big angle cuts.  I think that is more of the issue.  He tries to bounce occasionally, it's just not his talent IMO.  

I think I've seen you say that it is because that is what he was conditioned to do at Wisco, but I think it's also because of his talent base.  Run at someone and cut.  There have been lots of square shoulder great runners.  Emmit Smith is a a good example.  He was mostly between the tackles, wasn't nearly as fast as JT, but was great with subtle cuts when coming downhill.  Had a HOF WR, great TE, and OLINE too.  Dallas was able to exploit the other zones better than we will be able to with what is on our team.

[DougDew]

11 minutes ago, Nickster said:

He's not great at lateral movement though.  He's not great at stop/start or big angle cuts.  I think that is more of the issue.  He tries to bounce occasionally, it's just not his talent IMO.  

I think I've seen you say that it is because that is what he was conditioned to do at Wisco, but I think it's also because of his talent base.  Run at someone and cut.  There have been lots of square shoulder great runners.  Emmit Smith is a a good example.  He was mostly between the tackles, wasn't nearly as fast as JT, but was great with subtle cuts when coming downhill.  Had a HOF WR, great TE, and OLINE too.  Dallas was able to exploit the other zones better than we will be able to with what is on our team.

I mention the Wisconsin connection because that's the way every RB who has come out of that school runs.  That's how Wi runs the ball...power running so to speak.  And why so many of them do not live up to expectations.

 

Which is why the lack of edge running plays is NOT on Frank.

 

Its something that Ballard should know when looking for RBs from Wisconsin.  

 

We used Marlon Mack the same way...between the tackles...and Hines up the gut when he's not doing APB stuff.

 

Ballard says that we are lucky to have Frank.

 

So, Ballard must want the up the gut runs, and not many edge running plays.   

[Nickster]

9 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

We're a funny bunch.

 

JT leads the league in rushing TDs and rushing yards.

 

Yeah, but did he bounce it outside?

 

It's like: Steph Curry sets the NBA record for 3-pointers. Yeah, but did he do a 360 windmill tomahawk dunk?

 

Maybe they're extremely good at what they do? Sure they could do other things better, but we're being critical of the best player on the team, which is fine on a forum I guess. It's just funny is all.

 

He led the league but that doesn't mean that he threatened much outside of the tackle box which it seemed was an issue the last month.  

 

Did you read the post?  He averaged 3.5 ypc on 96% of his runs the last month.  You really think a team is going to be all that successful when that is the case?  We are probably not going to have a great QB for some time, and we have no LT going into next year at this point.  

 

Also, we uhh aren't playing this weekend. 

 

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think OP was speaking about JTs improvisational abilities.  He doesn't seem to deviate from the plan even when the plan looks hopeless.  I think the 96% of runs having a 3.5 ypc speaks to the need for him to have good blocking to get anything positive.

 

All RBS need good blocking, but just comparing him to Najeem Harris or Josh Jacobs who have a little more of their rushing yards being more determined by their own abilities and not the quality of the oline.  JMO.

 

I don't agree with OPs thought of having a QB getting those edge yards.

 

OP has never been a JT fan. So him nitpicking about JT is not surprising, just like you hop on to nitpick about Ballard. 

 

[chad72]

17 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

We're a funny bunch.

 

JT leads the league in rushing TDs and rushing yards.

 

Yeah, but did he bounce it outside?

 

It's like: Steph Curry sets the NBA record for 3-pointers. Yeah, but did he do a 360 windmill tomahawk dunk?

 

Maybe they're extremely good at what they do? Sure they could do other things better, but we're being critical of the best player on the team, which is fine on a forum I guess. It's just funny is all.

 

I agree with this. The OP was never truly a JT fan and of all the problems this team has, JT is not one. Making it seem like the Colts are working around JT's limitations while the truth is we are working around CW's limitations is like interjecting one's own past bias with back handed compliments. 

[DougDew]

11 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

OP has never been a JT fan. So him nitpicking about JT is not surprising, just like you hop on to nitpick about Ballard. 

 

Its not a nitpick.  It makes the offense very dependent on a dominant oline.  "Quenton is a Colt".

 

It all fits together, IMO, and pretty clear what the running game is supposed to look like.

 

People who don't understand this, nitpick Frank for calling Hines up the gut.   Its what the running game is supposed to look like, starting with the GM.

[Flash7]

18 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

[1] He led the league but that doesn't mean that he threatened much outside of the tackle box which it seemed was an issue the last month.  

 

[2] Did you read the post?  He averaged 3.5 ypc on 96% of his runs the last month.  You really think a team is going to be all that successful when that is the case?  We are probably not going to have a great QB for some time, and we have no LT going into next year at this point.  

 

[3] Also, we uhh aren't playing this weekend. 

 

[1] It's fairly obvious to me that he did not need to threaten outside too much. He scored more TDs and ran for more yards than any other RB in the league, whether they bounced it outside or not. 

 

[2] Your argument here is that if you take away Superman's powers, he's just an average guy. Well, duh. You have to look at the whole picture, otherwise you're just being biased. What would Barry Sanders average if you took out all of his long runs? The fact that JT can break a long run at any given moment is his "superpower" so why take that away in your analysis? And you can do this for most RBs right? Let's take away their best runs and then look at their averages.

 

[3] You and me and all Colts fans want the same thing. We want to win. Pointing out that we are not in the playoffs and then saying it's due to our best player because he did not take more outside runs is not a good argument. 

 

[Smonroe]

Without reading all of the responses (because I'm lazy), I will say that we can all agree on one thing:

 

We all want a well rounded offense.  We don't want defenses daring us to throw the ball and stacking the box.  

 

How do we get there?  Carson has to play better (see, it's simple).  It helps if he's not worried about getting creamed every time he drops back, so that means better LT play.

 

We need WRs who can beat press and get open.  We may need two more TE's next season, let's get some that can run (as well as block).

 

All those are doable, and they all make JT even more dangerous.  

[chad72]

6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its not a nitpick.  It makes the offense very dependent on a dominant oline.  "Quenton is a Colt".

 

It all fits together, IMO, and pretty clear what the running game is supposed to look like.

 

People who don't understand this, nitpick Frank for calling Hines up the gut.   Its what the running game is supposed to look like, starting with the GM.

 

Tell me which good offense is not dependent on a very good OL and by no means is our OL dominant, very good I would agree but just because it is the strength of our team doesn't mean it is dominant.

 

Not all offenses have a quick release QB that makes the best decisions most of the time to negate a not so good OL, IMO. Pretty much most of the playoff teams have invested in their OL plenty or have high draft picks on them (that they have to pay eventually).

[Nickster]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I mention the Wisconsin connection because that's the way every RB who has come out of that school runs.  And why so many of them do not live up to expectations.

 

Which is why the lack of edge running plays is NOT on Frank.

 

Its something that Ballard should know when looking for RBs from Wisconsin.  

 

We used Marlon Mack the same way...between the tackles...and Hines up the gut when he's not doing APB stuff.

 

Ballard says that we are lucky to have Frank.

 

So, Ballard must want the up the gut runs, and not many edge running plays.   

 

Those are the RBs he drafts.

 

Mack was good at running laterally and picking holes though IMO.  

 

I agree and argued that JT was not going to be great.  He is great IMO, but limited.  That's not really a criticism, but we need to try to find ways to maximize his effectiveness. 

 

What I am trying to say and it's a difficult point to make is that I think JT is the best I've ever seen at what his particular skill set is.  He needs clear holes and/or cutback lanes to get to the 2nd level, but after that, there is really no one else I can think of that is even close to what I saw from him.

 

What I am saying is that I don't think we've ever seen a running QB with a guy like JT and a line like ours, and even though I still think the best way to win overall is from the pocket, I think for our team as currently constituted, this might be a way to maximize our talent.  

 

We couldn't possible get a guy as good as Lamar Jackson, but imagine a guy with a little lesser ability, running that zone read with Taylor as the back.  Ravens RBs have been pedestrian. 

 

Look it's no secret that I don't like the way our team is built and neither do you, but for the situation we are in now, I think that getting a zone read guy might a good way to threaten defenses.  

[Flash7]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

Mack was good at running laterally and picking holes though IMO.  

 

I agree and argued that JT was not going to be great.  He is great IMO, but limited.  That's not really a criticism, but we need to try to find ways to maximize his effectiveness. 

 

What I am trying to say and it's a difficult point to make is that I think JT is the best I've ever seen at what his particular skill set is.  He needs clear holes and/or cutback lanes to get to the 2nd level, but after that, there is really no one else I can think of that is even close to what I saw from him.

 

What I am saying is that I don't think we've ever seen a running QB with a guy like JT and a line like ours, and even though I still think the best way to win overall is from the pocket, I think for our team as currently constituted, this might be a way to maximize our talent.  

 

We couldn't possible get a guy as good as Lamar Jackson, but imagine a guy with a little lesser ability, running that zone read with Taylor as the back.  Ravens RBs have been pedestrian. 

 

Look it's no secret that I don't like the way our team is built and neither do you, but for the situation we are in now, I think that getting a zone read guy might a good way to threaten defenses.  

Frank Gore was a hit the hole, straight ahead runner like JT. Unlike JT, he did not have the homerun speed.

 

Gore had a running QB in Kap. It worked until the league figured it out, and then it no longer worked. Kap was asked to become a passer and it fell apart. The league has already seen this and will be able to adapt. 

[Nickster]

8 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

[1] It's fairly obvious to me that he did not need to threaten outside too much. He scored more TDs and ran for more yards than any other RB in the league, whether they bounced it outside or not. 

 

[2] Your argument here is that if you take away Superman's powers, he's just an average guy. Well, duh. You have to look at the whole picture, otherwise you're just being biased. What would Barry Sanders average if you took out all of his long runs? The fact that JT can break a long run at any given moment is his "superpower" so why take that away in your analysis? And you can do this for most RBs right? Let's take away their best runs and then look at their averages.

 

[3] You and me and all Colts fans want the same thing. We want to win. Pointing out that we are not in the playoffs and then saying it's due to our best player because he did not take more outside runs is not a good argument. 

 

 

1.  Not in the last month.  He had 2 TDs in the last four games and we lost and didn't make the playoffs.  Try to think of this as more as an idea of what would help this team, with this talent get better.  That's what I'm trying to say.

 

2.  This is just absurd.  I am saying with a Running QB threatening outside the tackle box, this is a way to maximize not take away his powers.  He has to get down hill.  The Colts need to threaten the edges more.  So I am trying to think about a way to do both of those things realistically with the Colts current roster and capital. 

 

You don't understand my post or I haven't explained it well.  

 

3.  This is either an intentional misreading of what I said, or again the explanation isn't very good. 

I did not say we didn't make the post because of JT.  That's absurd take on the OP. 

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Tell me which good offense is not dependent on a very good OL and by no means is our OL dominant, very good I would agree but just because it is the strength of our team doesn't mean it is dominant.

 

Not all offenses have a quick release QB that makes the best decisions most of the time to negate a not so good OL, IMO.

It was a general comment.   Most teams value the edge blockers more than the interior blockers.  I just see the thinking aligned from the GM, who is on the same page as the  HC as far as what the running game is supposed to look like.

 

[Nickster]

8 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

Without reading all of the responses (because I'm lazy), I will say that we can all agree on one thing:

 

We all want a well rounded offense.  We don't want defenses daring us to throw the ball and stacking the box.  

 

How do we get there?  Carson has to play better (see, it's simple).  It helps if he's not worried about getting creamed every time he drops back, so that means better LT play.

 

We need WRs who can beat press and get open.  We may need two more TE's next season, let's get some that can run (as well as block).

 

All those are doable, and they all make JT even more dangerous.  

 

See I don't think it's possible to do all that.  Carson probably is what he is.  He's better than the last month, but he's probably not going to be a great checkdown guy.

 

WE aren't going to be able to make all those changes IMO

 

What I'm saying is that it might be possible to maximize what we have with a run first, college type zone read, RPO guy.  That we might be able to find which takes pressure off the LT because on many plays the end would be unblocked.  This guy could bounce outside on dropbacks if he couldn't find anyone and exploit the attention on JT in the middle.  This I think would also maximize the Pittman over slant/traffic catcher skills.  

[chad72]

8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

It was a general comment.   Most teams value the edge blockers more than the interior blockers.  I just see the thinking aligned from the GM, who is on the same page as the  HC as far as what the running game is supposed to look like.

 

 

He did say that Fisher could do better in pass blocking. and blocked very well against the run. Our OL is definitely better run blocking than pass blocking. That is the jump they have to make, on pass protection. With good run blocking TEs and a good run blocking LT and RT too in Smith, it seems to me the play calling is more responsible for more runs between the tackles than the talent assembled because the talent's abilities for blocking on the edges suggests otherwise. "Quenton will be a Colt" has nothing to do with it, just that he is valued highly for pass and run blocking. That is my logical conclusion.

 

As far as Fisher is concerned, I have not had an achilles tendon injury, so I could be clueless. However,  if anyone has, I would like to know if it the stretching forward motion (during run blocking) feels easier on the scar tissue from healing than the retracting motion (going backwards for pass blocking) as time goes on. 

[Flash7]

10 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

1.  Not in the last month.  He had 2 TDs in the last four games and we lost and didn't make the playoffs.  Try to think of this as more as an idea of what would help this team, with this talent get better.  That's what I'm trying to say.

 

2.  This is just absurd.  I am saying with a Running QB threatening outside the tackle box, this is a way to maximize not take away his powers.  He has to get down hill.  The Colts need to threaten the edges more.  So I am trying to think about a way to do both of those things realistically with the Colts current roster and capital. 

 

You don't understand my post or I haven't explained it well.  

 

3.  This is either an intentional misreading of what I said, or again the explanation isn't very good. 

I did not say we didn't make the post because of JT.  That's absurd take on the OP. 

In the OP you made several points. I am specifically addressing this portion of your opening post:

 

"JT had long run on the last play v. NE to seal the game and the 1st play of the game the next week v. AZ with the back up linemen and a couple nice 20+ runs in the other two games over the last month although the one v. Jax was garbage time.   JT gained 463 yds on 91 carries for a seemingly robust 5.1 ypc in the last 4 games.  However if you take the longest run from each game JT had 306 yds on the other 87 carries for a poor ypc of 3.5 which leads to 3rd and long after 3rd and long.

 

3.5 ypc on 96% of your runs is not going to win you many football games."

 

Your analysis here has reduced JT down to an effective 3.5 ypc running back. And you've done this by taking away his long runs. Thus, taking away what makes him so unique, hence the Superman analogy.

 

As for the main point of your post, the 49ers did this with Gore and Kap. The league has seen it and has adapted to it.

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, Flash7 said:

In the OP you made several points. I am specifically addressing this portion of your opening post:

 

"JT had long run on the last play v. NE to seal the game and the 1st play of the game the next week v. AZ with the back up linemen and a couple nice 20+ runs in the other two games over the last month although the one v. Jax was garbage time.   JT gained 463 yds on 91 carries for a seemingly robust 5.1 ypc in the last 4 games.  However if you take the longest run from each game JT had 306 yds on the other 87 carries for a poor ypc of 3.5 which leads to 3rd and long after 3rd and long.

 

3.5 ypc on 96% of your runs is not going to win you many football games."

 

Your analysis here has reduced JT down to an effective 3.5 ypc running back. And you've done this by taking away his long runs. Thus, taking away what makes him so unique, hence the Superman analogy.

 

It's not meant to be an indictment of JT but a comment on the inability of the rest of the Colt's offense to attack other zones.

 

We aren't going to win much with a 3.5 ypc run game on 96% ofthe plays is the point.  WE can make JT more dangerous by expanding the number of zones teams have to be concerend with is the point I'm trying to make.

 

A zone read QB might be a way to do this with the current talent.  

[Flash7]

Just now, Nickster said:

 

It's not meant to be an indictment of JT but a comment on the inability of the rest of the Colt's offense to attack other zones.

 

We aren't going to win much with a 3.5 ypc run game on 96% ofthe plays is the point.  WE can make JT more dangerous by expanding the number of zones teams have to be concerend with is the point I'm trying to make.

 

A zone read QB might be a way to do this with the current talent.  

Maybe. It's been tried by SF with Gore (similar downhill runner) and Kap, a zone read QB. The league has seen it and they adapted to it. Kap was asked to become more of an effective passer and he couldn't. The rest is history.

[Nickster]

19 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

Maybe. It's been tried by SF with Gore (similar downhill runner) and Kap, a zone read QB. The league has seen it and they adapted to it. Kap was asked to become more of an effective passer and he couldn't. The rest is history.

See that it what I was saying before some panties were in bunge.   BECAUSE JT is such a threat, I think this could work.  Lynch and Wilson sort of did it, but they were pretty successful.  And I still don't think Lynch had the constant to the house threat that JT has.  

 

Gore was not the threat that JT is at that point in his career.  He was a persistent runner after his JT like 2nd season, but not an explosive one.  His yardage totals are a function of longevity.  The averaged about league average ypc most of his career.  

 

Kap was fast but not a great zone read guy necessarily IIRC. (EDIT:  I remebered incorrectly. NEvada ran a lot of that play). I doubt SF had the interior line and RT we have but couldn't say for sure.

 

 

[Flash7]

3 minutes ago, Nickster said:

See that it what I was saying before some panties were in bunge.   BECAUSE JT is such a threat, I think this could work.  Lynch and Wilson sort of did it, but they were pretty successful.  And I still don't think Lynch had the constant to the house threat that JT has.  

 

Gore was not the threat that JT is at that point in his career.  He was a persistent runner after his JT like 2nd season, but not an explosive one.  His yardage totals are a function of longevity.  The averaged about league average ypc most of his career.  

 

Kap was fast but not a great zone read guy necessarily IIRC.  I doubt SF had the interior line and RT we have but couldn't say for sure.

 

 

I also think that RGIII and Alfred Morris (downhill runner without JT's break away speed) tried this too. 

 

But overall, I think it's been tried by other teams. There was initial success, but like all things, defenses adjust and take it away. And then you're left with a QB who struggles to pass.

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

Clickbait here.  I hope some of you actually read and think about this post because I'm really interested in people's ideas about what me and another guy discussed.

 

He is better than I thought, but I still maintain he is not an all purpose back and he doesn't threaten wide in the running game.  He can tear it up with the speed between the tackles when the line opens holes and is seeing cutback cracks at a level I didn't think he'd be able to when he was a rookie and  in the 1st few games this yearwith the line is shambles.  He's also good at catching a swing pass and getting downhill.  He's a downhill guy and isn't very good at bouncing or being creative in the run game or in pass routes.  He is a killer between the tackles and on a swing but pedestrian outside the tackle box and in more complex patterns.   He's a homerun hitter.  I didn't think you could compete with smashmouth in the NFL until Buffalo, but I definitely think it is what helped our offense be so pedestrian the last month.  I'm sure plenty of people will be some "offended" by this but it seems pretty evident to me.  Here is some "evidence" of JT/Colt limitations. 

 

JT had long run on the last play v. NE to seal the game and the 1st play of the game the next week v. AZ with the back up linemen and a couple nice 20+ runs in the other two games over the last month although the one v. Jax was garbage time.   JT gained 463 yds on 91 carries for a seemingly robust 5.1 ypc in the last 4 games.  However if you take the longest run from each game JT had 306 yds on the other 87 carries for a poor ypc of 3.5 which leads to 3rd and long after 3rd and long.

 

3.5 ypc on 96% of your runs is not going to win you many football games.  

 

This is not necessarily JT's fault.  But the Colts limitations at WR (despite what Ballard has convinced himself IMO) and QB and possibly from Reich, make us a one dimensional a FB team offensively.  We don't threaten enough outside the tackle box and outside the numbers or in the flats.  We just don't.  Just pinching the middle worked to limit Colts' offensive effectiveness the last month it seems.  

 

SOOOO, I wonder if the Colts are considering a possible solution at QB of a guy who can run Zone Read and punish teams outside the tackle box when players crash in the middle, peeing down their legs, trying to contain JT.  I think this could be a short and possibly long term solution to what I think is a limited offensive talent pool overall.  I really don't like Mariota at all, but he or maybe a guy like that could really exploit different zones for this offense.  This is really what I want to discuss.  But I'd be happy to *ahem* debate any of the rest of my post.  I really think a QB who can hurt teams with QB runs and hit a decent flat pass could break the flood gates of this extremely limited offense, even if he had limited arm talent and/or reading ability.  There is a larger talent pool of guys like this than there is guys who can read a D and put the ball in the air where it needs to go.  I can't see a way of acquiring Wilson, that would be deadly IMO, but I think you can get a lesser guy that won't be too expensive to do this.

 

I've never been a fan of running being the primary weapon of a QB in this league, but it just might work with our strengths and JT's unique talent and the way our team is set up.   Not the old man of today, but a Tebow of 10 years ago or a  Lamar Jackson Lite type might be out their and open up this offense. 

 

What do you think?  Do you think it's possible to succeed on this O with a run first type of QB?  I personally do, and would really like to see us try.  I don't think we can improve the talent enough to see if Wentz can be effective at LT or pass catcher, but what I am proposing would make that unnecessary. 

 

I have started to become very open to the idea. This draft actually has 2-3 guys that could run this type of offense. And possibly one of them will slip to the 2nd round.

 

Some of you might recall that some people from the Colts org. were in attendance at the Liberty vs. Ole Miss game back in November. So was half the league, but the draw to that game was Malik Willis vs. Matt Corral. And I think they were there to watch Corral.

 

Corral isn't the athlete that Willis, but I believe he could run the zone read from time to time. And I love his quick release. He throws a very, accurate and pretty ball too. 

 

Willis will be long gone by the 2nd round, but I think Corral could be a very real option.

[Nickster]

8 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

I also think that RGIII and Alfred Morris (downhill runner without JT's break away speed) tried this too. 

 

But overall, I think it's been tried by other teams. There was initial success, but like all things, defenses adjust and take it away. And then you're left with a QB who struggles to pass.

Oh I'm not talking about being zone read in perpituity.  I'm saying in our current situation with our current personnel and lack of capital to get better passing QBs, LTs, WRs, and TEs, we might be able to use this for a couple of years BECAUSE of the RB.

 

It worked in WASH until RG3 got hurt.

 

I'm talking a year or 2 because of our strentght in non premium postion.s. 

 

Hell, TIM TEBOW won a playoff game with it

 

Teams would have to relearn how to defend it.  It's been a decade since many did it and most of the players weren't in middle school yet that would be seeing it. 

8 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I have started to become very open to the idea. This draft actually has 2-3 guys that could run this type of offense. And possibly one of them will slip to the 2nd round.

 

Some of you might recall that some people from the Colts org. were in attendance at the Liberty vs. Ole Miss game back in November. So was half the league, but the draw to that game was Malik Willis vs. Matt Corral. And I think they were there to watch Corral.

 

Corral isn't the athlete that Willis, but I believe he could run the zone read from time to time. And I love his quick release. He throws a very, accurate and pretty ball too. 

 

Willis will be long gone by the 2nd round, but I think Corral could be a very real option.

Was it you and I that discussed it?  

[DougDew]

52 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Mack was good at running laterally and picking holes though IMO.  

 

I agree and argued that JT was not going to be great.  He is great IMO, but limited.  That's not really a criticism, but we need to try to find ways to maximize his effectiveness. 

 

What I am trying to say and it's a difficult point to make is that I think JT is the best I've ever seen at what his particular skill set is.  He needs clear holes and/or cutback lanes to get to the 2nd level, but after that, there is really no one else I can think of that is even close to what I saw from him.

 

What I am saying is that I don't think we've ever seen a running QB with a guy like JT and a line like ours, and even though I still think the best way to win overall is from the pocket, I think for our team as currently constituted, this might be a way to maximize our talent.  

 

We couldn't possible get a guy as good as Lamar Jackson, but imagine a guy with a little lesser ability, running that zone read with Taylor as the back.  Ravens RBs have been pedestrian. 

 

Look it's no secret that I don't like the way our team is built and neither do you, but for the situation we are in now, I think that getting a zone read guy might a good way to threaten defenses.  

I see where you're coming from.  Our running back running game is an up the gut running game.

 

I don't think that we even have the old Edgerrin James bread and butter Stretch play in the playbook.

 

So you're saying that because we have a RB up the gut running game, to get those edge running plays (not the gimmicky jet sweeps), we should get a running QB using an RPO or Read Option.

 

I'm just saying that I would prefer a pocket passer, but add to the running game to include stretch plays and, and draft running backs who have some experience running those plays.  JT has never ran those plays, not even in college.  But he probably could.

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I see where you're coming from.  Our running back running game is an up the gut running game.

 

I don't think that we have the old Edgerrin James Stretch play even in the playbook.

 

So you're saying to get those edge running plays (not the gimmicky jet sweeps), we should get a running QB on an RPO or Read Option.

 

I'm just saying that I would prefer a pocket passer, but add to the running game to include stretch plays and, and draft running backs who have some experience running those plays.  JT has never ran those plays, not even in college.  But he probably could.

 

I think I remember them trying to run JT laterally last year though.  I remember saying he wasn't good at it LOL.

 

Yeah I would prefer a great classic QB too.  Sure that would be awesome.  Unless we get lucky I don't see it.  Shoot yeah, give me Rodgers.  We would contend every year he could play.  

 

I just don's see how we can add a ball handling QB that is a great pocket passer (we'd need a very good LT to do what we would both like too and at least a premium TE or WR).

 

Yes yes and yes.  The jet sweeps opened up the JT explosion IMO for a few games then that ship sails. 

I'm talking not in ideal terms, but in the terms we are in for a year or two. 

[shasta519]

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Was it you and I that discussed it?  

 

Could have been. I want a guy that can run for ~500 yards (30 yards/game), but also be able to lead a legit passing offense. 

 

 

[PRnum1]

There is alot to unpack in the OP's post.

 

• Hines is the attack the edge guy.  JT is the attack the inbetween tackles guy.  It is very rare to find a back that can do both.  In fact I can't think of one right now, Mack aside
• RPO is basically a college offense and will not work on a volume basis in the NFL.  It is ok to run it once in a while but running it too much will get your QB injured.  Titans run it occasionally with Tannehill but it is not a main staple of their offense.  Your QB has to hit short and intermediate passes or the team will not win.  Play action is good too.

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I think I remember them trying to run JT laterally last year though.  I remember saying he wasn't good at it LOL.

 

I'm assuming that Ballard knows about Wisco's running game and didn't really expect JT to come to the NFL being able to run edge plays that he's never run much of before.  But you never know, he may have just looked at stats and analytics when looking at JTs performances, LOL.

 

Ballard said that JT can expand his game and become even better.  So hopefully JT shows increased ability to run edge running plays so that Frank has the opportunity to call more of them with him, and be less predictable.

[stitches]

Honestly... last year with Rivers he looked good and graded really well as a receiving back. I agree he was probably underutilized this year, but again... like with most things to do with our passing offense you can trace it back directly to the QB. He had tons of chances to dump the ball to Taylor or target him on short passes. That's just not who Wentz is. He doesn't take the layup, if I can paraphrase our GM. And we have a shocking supporting evidence in the way Hines was utilized last year vs this year.