Final Play Call

[ColtsBlueFL]

 

 

[#12.]

I agreed with it Sunday, but after thinking about it I've changed my mind and here's why:  with each team now getting a possession in OT and with OT being cut to 10 minutes, a tie will become a common thing.  Coaches, players and fans just have to learn to live with it.  In three or four years when the ties start to rack up, I think even Reich will look back at this and say, yes, you take the tie.  It's just gonna be part of the game.

 

In our situation, it's not the end of the world obviously, but at the very least Reich needs to reconsider the going for it "10 out of 10 times" comment.  You don't go for it if you're 3-0.  You don't go for it if you're vying for a playoff spot or it potentially hurts playoff positioning.  You don't go for it if it's 4th and 20 or if you're on the 20 yard line.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Frank is still a rookie coach. In my mind, the QC coach should have been in /Reich’s ear... about a/all 4th and less than 5 play(s) on the chart we had not run yet, but was in the game plan and practiced during the week

 

I feel you just can’t run a play they’ve already seen, even if it worked earlier.  Maybe even work the new play into a hard count cadence, in case you do draw them offsides. Otherwise, you are in a better position to be successful should the play need to be run; IMO.  That’s part of putting players in a position to succeed.

 

To me,  this how the QC guy earns his pay.  In real time, tell the HC about plays in the game plan for that situation that hasn’t even been used yet.  Then if he ( HC ) doesn’t choose one of the plays he installed in the game plan and wasn’t used yet, then he owns it. Not execution. Because the other side gets paid too, and if they sniff out a play having seen it earlier, they can make execution that much harder.  

 

On a side note, I heard Reich backtracked from his go for it 10 times out of 10 statement, that is it a case by case decision. But he still leans toward aggressive play calls.

[Myles]

2 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

Interesting viewpoint Myles. When it comes to sport standings, the end justifies the means. Never in the annuls of the NFL has a team been promoted into the playoffs above a higher ranked team, "because at least they had the guts to go for it aggressively on several 4th down situations".

 

The hype surrounding the 'bravery' of the decision is missplaced. Coaching decisions are generally regarded as good if they attain the desired outcome, and poor if they don't. Probably unfairly, but that's life.

 

If our kick returner decides to run it out of the end zone to try and get a home run, but gets downed at our 10 yard line, do we all applaud his aggressive intention? Do we heck.

 

I'm not ragging on Reich by the way, I just didn't like his call.

Seems that people are pretty evenly split on the decision.   It takes all kinds.  

The main reason I support it is because I don't feel like this team is real good.   I predicted a 7-9 or 8-8 record.  I think the team will have to take riskd to win over that amount.   This one didn't work, but we need to keep doing it.

[braveheartcolt]

13 minutes ago, Myles said:

Seems that people are pretty evenly split on the decision.   It takes all kinds.  

The main reason I support it is because I don't feel like this team is real good.   I predicted a 7-9 or 8-8 record.  I think the team will have to take riskd to win over that amount.   This one didn't work, but we need to keep doing it.

I understand. My concern is we get a bit healthier and make a bit of a run, particularly after Thursday. On our day, we could win all those remaining matches. If we miss out due to a tie breaker, that 1/2 point could come back to haunt. I accept it's unlikely though. Appreciate your thoughtful debate. 

[Myles]

4 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

I understand. My concern is we get a bit healthier and make a bit of a run, particularly after Thrursday. On our day, we could win all those remaining matches. If we miss out due to a tie breaker, that 1/2 point could come back to haunt. I accept it's unlikely though. Appreciate your thoughtful debate. 

Sure would suck if we miss the playoff by .5 game.  

 

[crazycolt1]

I have mixed feeling about the call. I understand going for the win and I can't fault Frank for that mindset but I just question the play called.

Also had Pagano made that call this place would have exploded. When Frank calls it, it's the right call.  Only time will have the answers about Frank and his coaching abilities.

 

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

Sure would suck if we miss the playoff by .5 game.  

 

Big time!!

I have my doubts about this team being a playoff team this year because of the lack of veterans at key spots but I will cheer them on regardless.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I have mixed feeling about the call. I understand going for the win and I can't fault Frank for that mindset but I just question the play called.

Also had Pagano made that call this place would have exploded. When Frank calls it, it's the right call.  Only time will have the answers about Frank and his coaching abilities.

 

Had Chuck called that I wouldve felt the same but I know what you are saying, we had some Chuck haters in here. I just agree'd with the call period. I did not want a Tie.

[braveheartcolt]

I'll probably get a tie for Christmas anyway.....

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Had Chuck called that I wouldve felt the same but I know what you are saying, we had some Chuck haters in here. I just agree'd with the call period. I did not want a Tie.

I have no issues at all with you feeling that way. Being aggressive does grow character with young players.

1 minute ago, braveheartcolt said:

I'll probably get a tie for Christmas anyway.....

Your tie will more than likely match my socks I get for X-Mas.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

I'll probably get a tie for Christmas anyway.....

It's better than cheap Cologne or white tube socks right? 

[NewColtsFan]

9 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

I liked the decision I would never play for a tie go for the win. 

 

I appreciate that you agree with the call.    That's fine.    But try not to use the word "never."

 

It covers all options.

 

After a day of thinking about it,  even Frank Reich has backed off saying he'd "go for it 10 times out of 10."    Frank realizes there are some scenarios where accepting a tie rather than risking a loss is the wiser corse of action.

 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

Could be true and if so , it would be a bad decision. I would like too see how they came up with that "league average stat." Also did they take the clock into account , with the Colts having 2 TO and Texan's none ?

 

 

Don't know if you saw it yesterday....    but I've walked back my anger over the call.    I heard Reich on Sunday and Monday and liked what he had to say both day.

 

I'm not wild about the call,  but if Reich is trying to establish a different culture and wants to be more aggressive,  then as a fan,  I can support him...

[Jules]

I am in the minority on this too, but I didn't like it. My gut said it was the wrong move at the time and still does. I get the logic of going for it but it was bad timing.

 

I don't like handing a division rival a win, especially at home when fan interest likely isn't as high as it used to be either.

 

Also, the Texans didn't even deserve a nice fat win after letting the Colts come back that way in the game. And the Colts IMO deserved to come out of the game with "something" after a big comeback and a big game by Luck.

 

I don't know, it just felt a bit rushed and desperate to me at the time. If it was a team like the Pats you give them the benefit of the doubt, they have a history to fall back on. This Colts team does not get that benefit of the doubt yet.

 

Lastly I also hate the OT rules too. And it is what it is now......we took the loss.

[Superman]

10 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

Disagree Supes. On the first drive in OT we could have won the game on the 4th and 2 when their D was truly gassed. And if we failed to convert, the D still had a chance to stop them.

 

All this 'not playing for a tie' rhetoric from the GM, HC, Luck and most of the fans is just empty chest thumping to cover up for a poor decision.

 

I know I'm in the minority on this. A tie is so much better than a loss, particularly against an arch rival.

 

You're missing the point that going for it on the 4th and 4 was the only way to win the game. The same is not true of the 4th and 2. If you kick the FG there, you can still win the game. 

 

I'm not chest thumping about not playing for a tie. I'm saying that the best chance to win was to go for it. If it's Week 17 and a tie will win the division, play for the tie. In this situation, I'd rather try for the win. 

 

And I don't think it's bad decision, and didn't think it was a bad decision beforehand. I think it was the best decision, just executed poorly. But I don't think focusing on the individual result is the right way to evaluate a game management decision. 

[braveheartcolt]

7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You're missing the point that going for it on the 4th and 4 was the only way to win the game. The same is not true of the 4th and 2. If you kick the FG there, you can still win the game. 

 

I'm not chest thumping about not playing for a tie. I'm saying that the best chance to win was to go for it. If it's Week 17 and a tie will win the division, play for the tie. In this situation, I'd rather try for the win. 

 

And I don't think it's bad decision, and didn't think it was a bad decision beforehand. I think it was the best decision, just executed poorly. But I don't think focusing on the individual result is the right way to evaluate a game management decision. 

I'm not missing any point. Reich talked about going for the win. What he meant was going for the win when there was no other option. He had a better chance in getting the win (IMO) during the previous drive. He botched it. And taking the TO just made it worse. 

 

In business, most managers etc are judged on their results, not on their approach, so I respectfully disagree with your last point as well. Not often we disagree. 

[dw49]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

Don't know if you saw it yesterday....    but I've walked back my anger over the call.    I heard Reich on Sunday and Monday and liked what he had to say both day.

 

I'm not wild about the call,  but if Reich is trying to establish a different culture and wants to be more aggressive,  then as a fan,  I can support him...

 

No I didn't see that . You always are willing to revisit and that's good character on your part.

 

In all fairness , it's very early in the season to assess how much "value" a tie would have had. It was a tough call and I can see both sides. I just thought you were a little "unforgiving" in Reich's decision. 

[NewColtsFan]

2 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

No I didn't see that . You always are willing to revisit and that's good character on your part.

 

In all fairness , it's very early in the season to assess how much "value" a tie would have had. It was a tough call and I can see both sides. I just thought you were a little "unforgiving" in Reich's decision. 

 

I was.    I absolutely was.   Should have realized it when I wrote it.    But I was THAT hot!   Even my wife noticed.   I'm never upset when the Colts lose.    Too many other things in life I have to care more about.     But this?    I was a volcano and I erupted.    Bad move on my part.   I should have known better.     Another poster wisely pointed it out,  but I wasn't ready to accept it early Sunday.

 

Then I heard Reich's comments Sunday.   And I mostly liked them.   He admitted to some mistakes he made and owned them.   I was impressed.     Then,  he walked back his "I'd do the same thing 10 times out of 10" comment on Monday.    He knows there could someday be a scenario where it would be wise to take a tie when a loss might eliminate a team from playoff possibilities...      There should always ben an exception to the rule.   So, I was even more impressed with Frank on Monday.     Gotta like a guy like that.    Gotta support a guy like that.

 

I really do like Frank.    Happy he's our coach.    I just needed to pry the stick out of my own rear end!      

 

Appreciate your post....     thanks...

 

NCF

 

[Luck is Good]

I applaud the fact that the Colts have a coach who is willing to put it all on the line to win. Sometimes it doesn’t go the right way. But it was absolutely the right decision. No debate

[richard pallo]

1 minute ago, dw49 said:

 

No I didn't see that . You always are willing to revisit and that's good character on your part.

 

In all fairness , it's very early in the season to assess how much "value" a tie would have had. It was a tough call and I can see both sides. I just thought you were a little "unforgiving" in Reich's decision. 

it is early in the season to know the "value" of a tie.  But we do know the value of a loss is always a bad thing especially against a divisional and conference opponent.  Missing on that call in those circumstances pretty much guarantees your opponent a victory.  And it did.  Not smart football if you're trying to make the playoffs.  There has been a number of ties so far with many games to follow.  Time will tell if any of them will make a difference.   There is a time to be aggressive and there is also a time to take the other option;  Do not give your opponent a chance at an easy victory and take the tie and stay close to the pack and live to fight another day.   However it's now over and done with.  I hope it's not a factor at the end of the year. 

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It's better than cheap Cologne or white tube socks right? 

White tube socks? Oh my God. My Mother, God rest her soul bought me tube socks every X-Mas for 20 years till she passed. I always needed socks she would say but what she never knew was working in steel toed work boots sometimes 12 hours a day that tube socks were useless. They would always ride themselves down into the boot in about 30 minutes. We would use those tube socks to clean and I always had rags around the garage and working on the car or truck.

I never had the heart to say anything to her because she thought she was taking care of me.

I know it's off subject but it just brought back memories. 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

I'm not missing any point. Reich talked about going for the win. What he meant was going for the win when there was no other option. He had a better chance in getting the win (IMO) during the previous drive. He botched it. And taking the TO just made it worse. 

 

In business, most managers etc are judged on their results, not on their approach, so I respectfully disagree with your last point as well. Not often we disagree. 

 

I disagree that he had a better chance of getting the win on the previous drive. Take the points in OT. You're now suggesting that he leave points on the board in what would be a sudden death situation. That's a far different scenario, and that's not a defensible decision. 

 

As for judging by result, my point is that no one is going to be right or successful 100% of the time. So rather than focusing on the result, the proper way to judge is to consider the process. If your kicker misses a 35 yard FG to win the game, it doesn't mean your decision was wrong. Judging by result would have you conclude that if any decision doesn't work, it was the wrong decision. And that's absurd. 

 

In this case, Reich wanted to preserve his chance to get a win. He valued that opportunity greater than securing a tie. I think that's the point of divergence for most people. If someone thinks that's the wrong calculation, that's fine, but that's going to be based on valuing a tie greater than Reich did. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

55 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

White tube socks? Oh my God. My Mother, God rest her soul bought me tube socks every X-Mas for 20 years till she passed. I always needed socks she would say but what she never knew was working in steel toed work boots sometimes 12 hours a day that tube socks were useless. They would always ride themselves down into the boot in about 30 minutes. We would use those tube socks to clean and I always had rags around the garage and working on the car or truck.

I never had the heart to say anything to her because she thought she was taking care of me.

I know it's off subject but it just brought back memories. 

Yeah I got those for some X-Mas's too I used them for rags as well and to clean up things . 

[braveheartcolt]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree that he had a better chance of getting the win on the previous drive. Take the points in OT. You're now suggesting that he leave points on the board in what would be a sudden death situation. That's a far different scenario, and that's not a defensible decision. 

 

As for judging by result, my point is that no one is going to be right or successful 100% of the time. So rather than focusing on the result, the proper way to judge is to consider the process. If your kicker misses a 35 yard FG to win the game, it doesn't mean your decision was wrong. Judging by result would have you conclude that if any decision doesn't work, it was the wrong decision. And that's absurd. 

 

In this case, Reich wanted to preserve his chance to get a win. He valued that opportunity greater than securing a tie. I think that's the point of divergence for most people. If someone thinks that's the wrong calculation, that's fine, but that's going to be based on valuing a tie greater than Reich did. 

On the decision to go for it on the 4th and 2. You are using a similar argument that you use to defend management decisions. I believe the odds were stacked in our favour then. The mighy Tex D was in disarray and clearly gassed. Luck was pretty much in control. Go for the jugular. 2 yards and we keep rolling towards the game winning score. Did you actually think 3 points was enough at that point to seal it? I was hoping for a stop, but never really thought it. Reich played the 'safe' go for the win option, rather than the one with a better chance of success. Had it failed he knew he would get crucified by most. The NFL is surely a 'he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day' league. I'm possibly more disappointed by his bravado after the game, when he paraded out his 'playing for the win' mantra. He was cornered and he played the chest thumping card. I'm still on his side by the way, think he will be good for us once he learns the HC ropes.

 

Of course judging solely by results is absurd. But if we get on a roll and miss the playoffs on a tie breaker, then Reich will be judged retrospectively and his poor decisions on that final play will be assessed as wrong. By most people. 

 

We handed our arch rivals a win, and that can never be seen as a good thing. I'm probably biased though, as I had a work team based in Houston, and have several good friends there just lining up to rip me!

[ColtsBlueFL]

Hmmmm makes me wonder...

 

Punt and take the tie - players think 'coach dosen't believe in us'. Players confidence???

 

Go for it - players think "coach believes in us".   Players Confidence!!

 

 

[braveheartcolt]

8 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

Hmmmm makes me wonder...

 

Punt and take the tie - players think 'coach dosen't believe in us'. Players confidence???

 

Go for it - players think "coach believes in us".   Players Confidence!!

 

 

He is not much of a coach if he needs to lose a game to give the team a confidence boost. Surely he has them already? Is making a rash decision really going to get players to believe in him?

[richard pallo]

The smart generals know that tactics can also win wars.  It is smart tactic to not hand your enemy a sure win but to retreat, treat your wounded, replenish your troops, and regroup to fight another day.  It's about winning the war.  Not just one battle.  I think that is what separates the Custers from the Pattons.  I think it's safe to say the soldiers would prefer following a Patton if they had the choice. 

[krunk]

I think what Reich should have done was brought back that fake punt Pagano did against Pittsburgh when they snapped it to Mcaffee and he had the option to punt or pass. McAfee hit Swoope wide open on a crossing route. If that wasn't open then Pat had the option to punt. That's what we should have done against Houston on that final play. Would have worked I think because Rigoberto hasn't ever attempted any fakes. No Colt film with him doing that.

[Myles]

On 10/1/2018 at 1:31 PM, VaAllDay757 said:

How do you know the game is a loss???? They haven't even practiced yet that's the problem right there....some of ya'll don't understand every game is different

I can predict the future.