Drafting a RB

[Luck 4 president]

2 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Ah man, this exactly. Not to derail the thread topic too much, and what's done is done and all that, but how Ballard went about that 2nd round never really sat right with me. Not that I'm bringing out my pitchforks over it or anything, but we could've made out of that second round like bandits.

Would've loved to have one of Landry, Jackson, or Williams as opposed to Smith. Not that he's disappointed or anything, just that I, like so many others here, had those three guys at the top of their wish list. Plus I've been kinda vocal on how I wasn't too excited about the Turay/Lewis picks, but it is what it is.

But on the specific topic of this thread, I'm fine with having not spent a pick on RB too early. I subscribe to RB being an easier position to fill, at least in terms of other positions, but I'm not too picky of where Ballard takes one.

I hated our 2nd round. They were all reaches imo. Even Leonard. Most the board wanted Jackson and Landry. Pre 2nd round I wanted Hernandez (who was taken 2 picks before), Landry, Jackson, Williams, and a few other guys. Instead we got a backup guard (who drafts a backup guard with a top 40 pick???), an FCS linebacker (who drafts an FCS LB with a top 40 pick???) an injury prone DE who had one good season like 4 years ago, and a 4th round DE in hopes of converting him into a DT when we already have a crowded DL. 

If I was picking I would have taken Jackson and Landry 100% since Hernandez was gone. Then Leonard with our mid 2nd (no doubt he would have been there). Then not trade our 3rd and taken LB Fred Warner. Boom. 4 starters on defense right there. Instead we got 1. 

[Defjamz26]

4 hours ago, MPStack said:

Question? When are the Colts going to get one of those awesome RBs everyone says you can find in the 3-5 RDs?

And thus is the issue with Colts fans, and football fans in general. People love to make exceptions to the rule the rule. When a team finds a Kareem Hunt or David Johnson, it becomes jealous ones envy so people invented this idea that drafting RBs later is some sort of calculable truth. 

 

In an ironic fashion, they’ll hold up this feeble notion using the same fickle “exception to the rule” logic about the success of late round RBs by applying it to the cases of 1st round bust RBs. Trent Richardson and Donald Brown were 1st round busts so that’s why you don’t draft a RB early. Then they’ll add to it by having a readied explanation of why the successful first round RBs that would counteract their theory aren’t really good. Zeke has Dallas’ O-line, Fournette’s rushing total wasn’t that impressive for the 4th overall pick, are the most common ones you’ll here.

 

Im summary, people believe what they want to believe. In football people like to invent all these made up rules about finding players to try and make it seem like team building is easy. The truth is that the NFL is a crapshoot. While there are certain agreed upon barometers for success that the best football minds have come up with, nothing is 100% certain.

[Surge89]

1 hour ago, DaColts85 said:

I wonder if all these great minds gave up on Peyton Manning after his first 3 preseason games. I mean his first real game he threw 3 picks and had a completion percentage of 56.  Man we should have benched him or fired Polian right?

 

Good lord people you expect the roster to be dominate after 2 drafts with a new GM and scheme in place now.

 

Maybe you should actually read and pay attention to the discussion going on.  

 

Or not you can stay ignorant for all I care we just won't take anything that you say seriously.  

 

We aren't talking about giving up on a draft class nor saying we need to be dominate.  We are saying there was clear and away better ways to draft and that is a huge red flag with a GM that says his main source for talent is draft.  Take you head out of wherever you have it and learn to think objectively instead of snarky nonsense responses. 

[Surge89]

1 hour ago, Barry Sears said:

Well, hopefully Chris Ballard will read this Forum before drafting next year so he won't whiff on any picks and we get all future pro bowlers in our draft.

 

3 pre-season games and everyone is giving up on our draft class already.

 

Building though the draft takes time and some players don't reach their potential for 2-3 years.

 

Patience is the key.  I'm no expert and don't pretend to be...I trust that Ballard and our scouts are doing what they are getting paid to do.  If they fail, we'll find out and Irsay will go hire a different GM.

 

See post above.  Learn to actually follow the discussion. 

[DaColts85]

6 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

Maybe you should actually read and pay attention to the discussion going on.  

 

Or not you can stay ignorant for all I care we just won't take anything that you say seriously.  

 

We aren't talking about giving up on a draft class nor saying we need to be dominate.  We are saying there was clear and away better ways to draft and that is a huge red flag with a GM that says his main source for talent is draft.  Take you head out of wherever you have it and learn to think objectively instead of snarky nonsense responses. 

Wow calling me ignorant and then claiming your drafting methods are better...laughable and ignorant in itself!!

[Fisticuffs111]

1 hour ago, DaColts85 said:

I wonder if all these great minds gave up on Peyton Manning after his first 3 preseason games. I mean his first real game he threw 3 picks and had a completion percentage of 56.  Man we should have benched him or fired Polian right?

 

Good lord people you expect the roster to be dominate after 2 drafts with a new GM and scheme in place now.

 

Lol man, some of you guys get me. It’s like if you had it your way there’d be no discussion here whatsoever, safe space only.

[DaColts85]

Just now, Fisticuffs111 said:

 

Lol man, some of you guys get me. It’s like if you had it your way there’d be no discussion whatsoever, safe space only.

Sometimes I like to make random comments I will give you that. Sorry for the remark!

[Fisticuffs111]

Just now, DaColts85 said:

Sometimes I like to make random comments I will give you that. Sorry for the remark!

I definitely get what you're saying about not judging guys too early and everything. I definitely don't think I know better than Ballard or think I could even hold a candle to his GM'ing abilities, just making observations on how the 2nd round could've gone down differently.

[DaColts85]

1 minute ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I definitely get what you're saying about not judging guys too early and everything. I definitely don't think I know better than Ballard or think I could even hold a candle to his GM'ing abilities, just making observations on how the 2nd round could've gone down differently.

I can understand that.

[Surge89]

1 hour ago, DaColts85 said:

Wow calling me ignorant and then claiming your drafting methods are better...laughable and ignorant in itself!!

 

You sure are thick.

 

Go ahead and gloss over that you were completely wrong in your initial point?  I could care less if you think my draft methods are better the whole point is to have discussion and you come barking with almost nothing to do with the original discussion.  Lol and then you get hostile when someone calls you out on your snarkiness.  Just because we are questioning the drafting we are not saying they are bad players and we are not saying that the GM needs to be fired but we are saying this is a red flag for us because the proof is already coming out that is supporting our point of view.  If you can't handle that why even partake in this discussion?  There is such a thing as don't click. 

[Stephen]

8 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

I probably would have used one of the later 2nd round picks on Guice.

 

Of course hindsight is 20/20 with his injury, but that is what I would have done at the time.

I probably would have to

[NewColtsFan]

Well, well, well, well, well, well....

 

I think we have a strong candidate for my Least Favorite Thread of the Year! 

 

And it’s not even September!

 

BARF!!           

 

There’s enough steaming manure in this thread to grow Indiana crops for a decade!    You’d think no one here ever read or heard an interview with Chris Ballard.    Posters seem to have no idea what Ballard is trying to do.

 

Out of roughly 50 posts, there were maybe 5-10 that had some sense of reasonableness and perspective.   Otherwise people here seem convinced they’d do a better job.

 

I appreciate that we’re all here to express our opinions and points of view,  but WOW,  I’m not sure when I’ve seen so much that I strongly disagreed with.    Too many to count.

 

Just so painful to read......

 

 

 

[BeanDiasucci]

5 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I don't think anybody's giving up on this draft class. I actually think it'll be a good class for the most part. People are just explaining how they thought it could've been knocked out of the park or even a historic class. And that was always the thing being said leading up to the draft by everybody here, that this class could be a real home run. Plus it's not like the guys being mentioned (Landry, Jackson, Williams) would've been good picks only in hindsight, they were all very highly regarded.

And who knows, it very well could be. We won't know until we know. I really like Nelson, loved the Leonard and Wilkins picks, and I think Smith could eventually be a decent starter. And maybe Turay and Lewis will end up being good-great players.

What concerns me a bit is the inclination perhaps to try to be a little too clever. Grigson seemed to prefer too often to try to use his singular genius find his own hidden gems instead of the very highly regarded college players.  I hope Ballard doesn't similarly try to pull a rabbit out of a hat too often when there's already a thoroughbred in plain view.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well, well, well, well, well, well....

 

I think we have a strong candidate for my Least Favorite Thread of the Year! 

 

And it’s not even September!

 

BARF!!           

 

There’s enough steaming manure in this thread to grow Indiana crops for a decade!    You’d think no one here ever read or heard an interview with Chris Ballard.    Posters seem to have no idea what Ballard is trying to do.

 

Out of roughly 50 posts, there were maybe 5-10 that had some sense of reasonableness and perspective.   Otherwise people here seem convinced they’d do a better job.

 

I appreciate that we’re all here to express our opinions and points of view,  but WOW,  I’m not sure when I’ve seen so much that I strongly disagreed with.    Too many to count.

 

Just so painful to read......

 

 

 

"There's enough steaming manure in this thread to grow Indiana crops for a decade!". I just spit my Coffee out reading this, great stuff! 

[southwest1]

7 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

I hope he does read this forum...cause he doesn't return my calls or texts.

Now that was funny! I live for quality humor like this slid in between intricately detailed posts. Well played Shastamasta; Well played.

 

I betcha Ballard smirked when he read it too.

[akcolt]

I don't have a problem with the way the RB or WR spots have been handled. The RB I wanted in this draft was Freeman. He went in the 3rd moving back with the last 2nd rounder getting another pick and Royce would have been perfect in my book. It didn't happen we added Hines and Wilkins this year to Mack who we drafted last year.

 

We have spent 3 picks in 2 drafts so the RB position is not being ignored. Ballard understand the importance of controlling the game and protecting the QB with the run? Unlike some here he believes in a committee and that the position can be addressed day 3. That's what he is doing. Personally I will wait until the rookies play at least one game before saying he was wrong. If it weren't for Turbin being a bone head this room would be in fine shape IMO. As it stands  I'm more comfortable then just about everyone moving forward with Mack Wilkins Hines until Turbin gets back. 

 

The WR position was hit by injuries. If Cain and Brent were healthy I feel like the narrative would be different. I am fine with the starters TY and Grant I have seen Grant play in Washington I know what he can do. He will be the best WR2 TY has had across from him since Reggie hung them up.  Chester needs to show he can stay healthy this year.

 

You can't rebuild every room top to bottom in 2 drafts. There is no doubt we will be young with unproven at the bottom of the WR depth chart.  Can anyone say they'd really rather still have old guys like AJ or Nicks or the underachievers like Moncrief and Dorsett. We have a strong TE group that will factor heavily into the passing game and RB's that can catch and should be explosive in space too. We also have pretty good QB.

 

As far as the 2nd round picks. We may have 3 of the 4 starting in Cinny wk 1. There had been a run at the G and LB positions and they were positions of need for us. I'm fine taking the guys we took. Leonard was a riser and Smith was an all American who is a freak athlete. Everyone wants a healthy QB but they are upset when we use top picks to keep 300+ lbs guy's out of Lucks face. 12 should have a pocket to step up in for the first time which helps our  T's. 

 

 Turay is a pick I like and think he's going to surprise a lot of people. Whoever said he's identical to Basham is just wrong. Lewis is a guy the staff really liked. If they are right about his ability the fans will love him. It's easy to second guess but anyone who says they know this guy could've been taken  later is full of it. No one knows for sure how long guy's would have lasted.  No one should be shocked we to 2 OL and 2 DL with 4 of our 5 early picks while passing on CB's WR and RB. 

 

Ballard told us exactly how he was going to roll. He believes in building inside out and the fronts will be his focus. He wasn't happy with what he saw last year in the trenches He wanted the DL to come in waves and 10 starting caliber OL.  He feels there is value in RB's day 3. CB's aren't as valued in this system and he thought there was value in this draft at WR and LB later. That's exactly how he drafted.

 

I like how Ballard operates. He explains his philosophy then drafts following it. You can disagree philosophically but there weren't many surprises. It's a bit early to say he's wrong about building the RB room on day 3 or these other guys are better then the guys we drafted. There isn't one rookie in the league that has taken a meaningful snap. If you think how we drafted this year will keep Ballard from going DL early next year you aren't listening.

 

Time will tell if his philosophy will lead to the type of roster that wins consistently. It's just been 2 drafts and it's unrealistic to expect a roster that is going to have proven players from top to bottom. I think time will show Ballard knows a thing or two about building a football team. It's no

[shasta519]

8 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

I hated our 2nd round. They were all reaches imo. Even Leonard. Most the board wanted Jackson and Landry. Pre 2nd round I wanted Hernandez (who was taken 2 picks before), Landry, Jackson, Williams, and a few other guys. Instead we got a backup guard (who drafts a backup guard with a top 40 pick???), an FCS linebacker (who drafts an FCS LB with a top 40 pick???) an injury prone DE who had one good season like 4 years ago, and a 4th round DE in hopes of converting him into a DT when we already have a crowded DL. 

If I was picking I would have taken Jackson and Landry 100% since Hernandez was gone. Then Leonard with our mid 2nd (no doubt he would have been there). Then not trade our 3rd and taken LB Fred Warner. Boom. 4 starters on defense right there. Instead we got 1. 

 

That would have been an incredible 2nd round. I would have snagged Kirk with one of those early 2nd rounders...because I think he is going to an incredibly productive offensive player. And then either Landry or Jackson. At the end of the 2nd round, I would have grabbed Oliver (if I hadn't taken Jackson) or Guice (if I had taken Jackson)...and then grabbed Warner.

 

(Regardling the Leonard pick...I would have much rather waited on LB after passing on the top tier the 1st round...and then taken Warner at the end of the 2nd round...or 3rd round if they didn't trade up. He was the only other LB I wanted before day 3. But Leonard has looked good thus far...however Warner looks like he could be a star.) 

 

What's done is done...it just sucks that the Colts had all of those picks and didn't end up with one of Kirk, Landry, Jackson, Williams, Sutton, Guice, Oliver, Warner, etc. That is as talented of a group of 2nd round picks as I have seen in a long time.

[Luck 4 president]

2 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

That would have been an incredible 2nd round. I would have snagged Kirk with one of those early 2nd rounders...because I think he is going to an incredibly productive offensive player. And then either Landry or Jackson. At the end of the 2nd round, I would have grabbed Oliver (if I hadn't taken Jackson) or Guice (if I had taken Jackson)...and then grabbed Warner.

 

(Regardling the Leonard pick...I would have much rather waited on LB after passing on the top tier the 1st round...and then taken Warner at the end of the 2nd round...or 3rd round if they didn't trade up. He was the only other LB I wanted before day 3. But Leonard has looked good thus far...however Warner looks like he could be a star.) 

 

What's done is done...it just sucks that the Colts had all of those picks and didn't end up with one of Kirk, Landry, Jackson, Williams, Sutton, Guice, Oliver, Warner, etc. That is as talented of a group of 2nd round picks as I have seen in a long time.

What’s funny is that it seemed so clear to the forum members that those guys would be stars. Those were all common names in the mock drafts. Nothing is certain yet but so far it seems like we really missed big time. 

[Dark Superman]

I'm happy with the RB's we have on our roster and believe once the O-Line settles in and gets going, we will have a strong Running Game.

[stitches]

6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

There’s enough steaming manure in this thread to grow Indiana crops for a decade!    You’d think no one here ever read or heard an interview with Chris Ballard.    Posters seem to have no idea what Ballard is trying to do. 

 

Out of roughly 50 posts, there were maybe 5-10 that had some sense of reasonableness and perspective.   Otherwise people here seem convinced they’d do a better job.

 

I appreciate that we’re all here to express our opinions and points of view,  but WOW,  I’m not sure when I’ve seen so much that I strongly disagreed with.    Too many to count.

 

Just so painful to read......

People can know what Ballard is trying to do and still not like either the strategy(I don't have problem with it and I actually applaud him for the unapologetic gusto he approached his strategy with) or the specific evaluation of players(I have some beef with it). This doesn't mean I think i can do better job than him. I have no illusions about my abilities and resources to evaluate players compared to a widely respected NFL GM with all the resources, scouting network and time dedicated for evaluation of players that an NFL team has. They should be much better than us... but then again... as you pointed out this is a discussion board and we cannot go into every discussion in lock step with Ballard's opinion simply because he's the GM. How boring will this board be if everything here was "Well Ballard did it, so it must be the right thing to do"? What will there be left to discuss in the realm of constructing the team if every opinion was along the lines of a an Official Colts press-release?

 

And with that said... lets advance the conversation - what did you specifically disagree with that much in this thread? What caused you this much pain in here? 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

People can know what Ballard is trying to do and still not like either the strategy(I don't have problem with it and I actually applaud him for the unapologetic gusto he approached his strategy with) or the specific evaluation of players(I have some beef with it). This doesn't mean I think i can do better job than him. I have no illusions about my abilities and resources to evaluate players compared to a widely respected NFL GM with all the resources, scouting network and time dedicated for evaluation of players that an NFL team has. They should be much better than us... but then again... as you pointed out this is a discussion board and we cannot go into every discussion in lock step with Ballard's opinion simply because he's the GM. How boring will this board be if everything here was "Well Ballard did it, so it must be the right thing to do"? What will there be left to discuss in the realm of constructing the team if every opinion was along the lines of a an Official Colts press-release?

 

And with that said... lets advance the conversation - what did you specifically disagree with that much in this thread? What caused you this much pain in here? 

 

 

 

Thanks for a very reasonable response to my rant....      I appreciate it.

 

As for the particulars....    I really don't want to go into them.     That would put me in a series of debates with 8 or 10 or perhaps a dozen posters,  and that's the last thing I want to do.

 

I don't want to set myself up as the ultimater arbiter of truth.     I just think this was a thread that touched a raw nerve for a lot of people and things spun in a certain direction.    It's probable better that I was unable to respond during the day.     My eyes were popping      and my jaw was dropping      with so many posts.    I think it's better that I sat out the majority of the thread.  

 

But I wanted to offer my two cents,  and I know in cases like this it's not even worth that much,   to hopefully act as a bucket of cold water.     I want people to enjoy the site.  I really do.    I just thought this one thread was a whopper!                

[stitches]

17 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Thanks for a very reasonable response to my rant....      I appreciate it.

 

As for the particulars....    I really don't want to go into them.     That would put me in a series of debates with 8 or 10 or perhaps a dozen posters,  and that's the last thing I want to do.

 

I don't want to set myself up as the ultimater arbiter of truth.     I just think this was a thread that touched a raw nerve for a lot of people and things spun in a certain direction.    It's probable better that I was unable to respond during the day.     My eyes were popping      and my jaw was dropping      with so many posts.    I think it's better that I sat out the majority of the thread.  

 

But I wanted to offer my two cents,  and I know in cases like this it's not even worth that much,   to hopefully act as a bucket of cold water.     I want people to enjoy the site.  I really do.    I just thought this one thread was a whopper!                

Fair enough. For whatever it's worth my initial rant was in part prompted by our draft picks continuing to get injured and not being able to stay on the field(Turay, Lewis, Cain... ) or not being ready to start day 1(Smith - if you are interior O-lineman drafted 36, IMO you better be ready day 1), while at the same time watching the players I loved in the draft(and were available for us to pick in the second round) destroy the pre-season for other teams.

 

A more balanced post on my part would have included the part where we need to actually wait and see how our injured/slow to develop young players will fare in a year or two. But oh well... we can all aspire to do better in the future I guess. 

[crazycolt1]

It's mind boggling to read some of those comments.

It is impossible to judge or determine how a draft class went till the end of year three.

To say a rookie has to be a starter week one of his first year is unrealistic. That's why they are called rookies.

[Pacergeek]

Seems like Ballard has a thing for project players in the early rounds. If these players pan out, great, if not Ballard will get heat. Personally, I would rather take a RB you know can play than a project DE. I really wanted Dalvin Cook in 2017, but Ballard liked Tarrell Basham's potential better

[dodsworth]

Ballard likes players with a good work ethic and a certain mindset, hence why

he brought in the military guy to evaluate player's ability to be "team first" guys.

There were obviously better players to be selected as we picked in the draft but

maybe the staff figured the player didn't fit the profile the Colts wanted in the

locker room.

 

It is going to take a few years to in change a 30 plus year culture of soft football

and to field a team that can impose their will on opponent. Drafting linemen and

defense isn't sexy but it will payoff in the end.

[akcolt]

1 hour ago, Pacergeek said:

Seems like Ballard has a thing for project players in the early rounds. If these players pan out, great, if not Ballard will get heat. Personally, I would rather take a RB you know can play than a project DE. I really wanted Dalvin Cook in 2017, but Ballard liked Tarrell Basham's potential better

Cook went 40th overall Basham went in the 3rd round 40 slots later right on with your comparison This gets more and more ridiculous. 

[Pacergeek]

10 minutes ago, akcolt said:

Cook went 40th overall Basham went in the 3rd round 40 slots later right on with your comparison This gets more and more ridiculous. 

I don't care about the order. Point was that instead of getting a good RB, Ballard settled for a prospect DE. I'm not going to research this, but I'm sure there are other RB's picked after Bash that are better football players

[OffensivelyPC]

18 hours ago, DaColts85 said:

Sometimes I like to make random comments I will give you that. Sorry for the remark!

meh, couldn't get the gif to work...

[Fisticuffs111]

14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Out of roughly 50 posts, there were maybe 5-10 that had some sense of reasonableness and perspective.   Otherwise people here seem convinced they’d do a better job.

Yeah, if there's one point I wanna get across it's that I have no false beliefs that I could do a better job than Ballard.

[akcolt]

29 minutes ago, Pacergeek said:

I don't care about the order. Point was that instead of getting a good RB, Ballard settled for a prospect DE. I'm not going to research this, but I'm sure there are other RB's picked after Bash that are better football players

Of course why research anything it may raise you football IQ stick to tossing out nonsense like I wanted Cook but we went with Basham. FYI Marlon Mack went in the 4th 

[dodsworth]

Geeez, by all means let's bring back Grigson or either of the Polian's so we can draft a skill player early and continue to get bounced in the playoffs by smash mouth teams.

 

Although some of his picks may not pan out, his philosophy on how to build a team is spot on.

 

I agree with Newcoltsfan, some of these posts are extremely painful to read.

[OffensivelyPC]

18 hours ago, DaColts85 said:

Sometimes I like to make random comments I will give you that. Sorry for the remark!