Wide receiver separation

[GoColts00]

5 hours ago, DougDew said:

BTW, TY is not great at beating double coverage, so if he is the only real threat from the WR position, its not that hard for defenses to shut him down.  

I agree which is exactly why another WR/TE should run an underneath route when TY is being bracketed. If they're going to double team TY then make them pay 10 yards at a time until they stop or a pump fake to draw the CB off TY and let it fly! 

[Qcolts]

Part of it is Luck’s presnap read and locking on to WRs. The thing that made Manning and Brady so great, outside of the scheme, was the fact that they knew the coverage presnap and oftentimes knew who was going to be open at the snap of the ball. They protected the Oline, got the ball out quickly, and read the coverage correctly presnap.

 

As good as he has been in his career, Luck has a habit of misreading the coverage presnap and then locking onto his primary wr instead of quickly moving through the progression with the time clock in his head. His athleticism and size has allowed him to play this way because he can shrug off tackles and extend plays, so his size and athleticism has been a gift and a curse. 

 

He plays more like a Big Ben than a Manning or Brady. At this point, I don’t ever see him being a dink and dunk machine like Brady. It seems to be wired in him to extend plays and hold the ball for the deeper routes down the field. 

 

At this point the presnap reads and locking on to WRs is an issue, but we also have below average WRs outside of Hilton. Ryan Grant is a Wr4 or Wr5 on most rosters. Chester Rogers is a wr4 , maybe a low end wr 3 on most teams. The talent is lacking, thus we have to rely more heavily on scheme to get these guys open. With Luck still recovering and becoming more and more confident with what he can do, things will get better, but there will be growing pains like Monday along the way.

 

 

[Smoke317]

I agree with what Supe said. On the interception and one of the fumbles, Luck didn’t go through his progressions. Grant was there on the backside slant but Luck focused on the right side and then bailed out of the pocket. I attribute that to rust and nerves on Luck’s part. 

 

Grant stopping his route was unforgivable though. Had he continued crossing Luck maybe could have still found him late. But he totally quit on the play. I’m very disappointed in Grant so far and he and Luck have no chemistry whatsoever. Still no completions to Grant from Luck. In fact I don’t think he has a catch at all.  Luck threw 2 picks in practice trying to hit Grant. A lot of work still to do there.  

 

On the Suggs sack, I once again blame rust and nerves for Luck. Rogers was coming open across the middle but Luck rolled out to his right again right into the sack. Had he stepped up he’d have seen Rogers crossing. I personally feel Luck needs a “Reggie” to go with TY.

 

He’s (thus we’re) too TY dependent.  I think Rogers has the ability to do the job.  It’s time to force feed Luck to Rogers in practice. Throw it to Rogers 10-20 times in practice. Open or not. Build that chemistry. Build that timing and trust. TY & Doyle ain’t gonna be enough. 

 

Lastly, everyone mentioned great things the best receivers have but forgot one thing. Hands. Not just for catching but for creating separation. Corners hold every play and it’s not often called. So our receivers have to learn how to subtly use their hands to get separation. AB & Edelman are great at it.  Collie was good at it too.  Receivers have to be just as physical with corners as they are with them.   Sorry for the long post but can we please stress Luck to Rogers or Grant (maybe...) in practice?  Everyone, will benefit from it.  Nobody more than Luck. 

[compuls1v3]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed. I feel like this has come to be a convenient excuse, rather than acknowledging other issues.

 

First of all, it's really difficult to determine whether receivers were getting open or creating separation without watching the All 22, and I doubt many people who are complaining about lack of separation on Monday night have watched the All 22.

 

Second, for a while now, the offensive play calling and route combinations haven't been very good. Receivers weren't getting separation because they were being asked to run bad routes. The staff didn't do a good job of scheming guys open.

 

Third, the OL play has been bad, which undermines offensive efficiency in general. 

 

Fourth, Luck is prone to holding the ball too long. Sometimes he doesn't see open receivers (and I think a big part of that has been the design of the offense, but some of it is definitely on him), other times he expects to have a shot down the field and waits, and there are are other reasons. And what makes it worse is that he's really good at hanging in and making plays down the field, so the potential reward for holding the ball is something of a deterrent to getting rid of it quickly.

 

Fifth, the receivers aren't great route runners, or haven't been in the past. I feel like a big part of that has been coaching/development, part of it is scouting, and part of it is on the players themselves. But, to me, the route running isn't the primary issue, nor is a lack of separation. 

 

On the third down in the red zone, when Luck threw the pick, Ryan Grant ran a slant/rub shallow cross from the left side and had a clear step on his man. Then, for some reason, he stopped at the left hash. Luck hadn't left the pocket yet, and the middle of the field was wide open, but Luck wasn't looking left at all. If he threw the pass to Grant in stride, there's a chance for a first down. 

 

Instead, Luck stays right like it's a half field read, then scrambles right rather than stepping up (which he could have done) and looking to the middle. Then he forces a throw that made zero sense. 

 

There are two glaring issues here: 1) Grant's route started good, but he didn't cross the middle like I think he should have; and 2) Luck's read was bad (not gonna mention his decision, that goes without saying). If that was the design of the play, then it's flawed, but I doubt you install and call a play with a rub/slant on the backside if you don't  want the QB to even look that way. 

 

But instead of acknowledging that the QB and receiver weren't on the same page and have some wrinkles to iron out, we can just blame the receivers for not getting open. I'm against that.

 

Call good plays, make sure the QB/WR are executing them well, and then let's see how big of a problem lack of separation really is. I'm thinking it's way down the list right now.

I don't have this all 22 nor so I know what it is, but when I watched the game, I saw the line had some issues but there were plenty of times when Luck had plenty of time to throw.  I also agree he made some bad plays, but it seemed to me the first team WRs weren't making plays, at least not compared to the second team with Brissett.  That definitely could be on timing between Luck and the wideouts.  I might be wrong but that is what I saw.  Brissett and his receiving corp seemed to make more plays.  Nonetheless I'm excited to see the next game. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

Grant stopping his route was unforgivable though. Had he continued crossing Luck maybe could have still found him late. But he totally quit on the play. I’m very disappointed in Grant so far and he and Luck have no chemistry whatsoever. Still no completions to Grant from Luck. In fact I don’t think he has a catch at all.  Luck threw 2 picks in practice trying to hit Grant. A lot of work still to do there.  

 

I disagree on this. I'm not sure why Grant stopped his route, but he didn't just jog it out lazily. He purposely stopped, and it makes me think he thought he was supposed to stop. We don't and won't know why, but I felt like there was a misunderstanding there.

 

Maybe Grant will step up and play well, maybe not, but I don't think we've seen enough to know whether he'll get it done or not. The only disappointment I have in him right now is him dropping two passes the other night. 

[throwing BBZ]

8 hours ago, Freenyfan102 said:

Only good WR we have is TY Hilton and even then he disappears some game we do not have a true number 2 guy. Ryan Grant is not it. I can see next year draft drafting a WR in the first round and the rest be defense

 

So will TY have 4 or 5 big games this season, then the others dud like?

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree on this. I'm not sure why Grant stopped his route, but he didn't just jog it out lazily. He purposely stopped, and it makes me think he thought he was supposed to stop. We don't and won't know why, but I felt like there was a misunderstanding there.

 

Maybe Grant will step up and play well, maybe not, but I don't think we've seen enough to know whether he'll get it done or not. The only disappointment I have in him right now is him dropping two passes the other night. 

I am Underwhelmed by Grant!!

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

7 hours ago, deedub75 said:

Neither Rice nor Wayne were really known for speed. 

Or Steve largent 

[Coffeedrinker]

10 hours ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

I am Underwhelmed by Grant!!

Maybe Grant has been underwhelming but I will say, I bet you are basing your opinion of Grant in large part on his stat sheet.

 

During the preseason, the coaches care very little for most stats.  They probably look at drops and that's about it.  All they are looking at are things like, did the WR run the correct route, did he make his break at the correct time, did he use the proper technique when making the break, did they make the correct adjustment based on the D, did he find the right spot against zone.  

 

Knowing that is what the coaches are looking at, and a lot more, and the coaches and Ballard are saying they are comfortable with the WRs then I will believe them until they prove they should not be believed.

[SteelCityColt]

22 hours ago, #12. said:

Many things are involved.  Good OCs and QBs(changing the play) can scheme WRs open.  A good running game with play action opens things up.  

 

Then, of course, what is open for one QB is not open for another.  The Jets AFCCG was IMO the greatest game Manning ever played.  He seemingly didn't have a receiver with more than a foot of separation all day, yet threw for 400 yards.

 

Then there's Reggie and IMO the greatest game he ever played - the 2012 comeback vs.  the Packers.  What is open for one receiver isn't open for another.  Reggie didn't get major separation all game, but Luck knew if he could just get it near Reggie's catch radius, he would make a play, and consistently he did.

 

Reggie in the GB game was just another level, one of my favourite performances by an athlete in any sport. 

 

IIRC he got fined for his gloves! 

[DougDew]

18 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed. I feel like this has come to be a convenient excuse, rather than acknowledging other issues.

 

First of all, it's really difficult to determine whether receivers were getting open or creating separation without watching the All 22, and I doubt many people who are complaining about lack of separation on Monday night have watched the All 22.

 

 

Agreed.  I use WR separation as a excuse, since I don't have the All 22.  I assume since Luck was a #1 pick and the best potential since Elway, that he can read pre-snap coverages and understand the offensive routes well enough to know who should be open and when.  Because of this, I attribute him holding the ball too long to receivers not getting open when he expects them to be open.  But maybe Luck's development hasn't progressed as everybody thought.

 

However, when Reggie was healthy, both Reggie and TY had significant success...with Satele, MacGoo, and Justice/Cherilous as the OL BTW....so WR play has to be a big part of the problems over recent years.

[Coffeedrinker]

18 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed. I feel like this has come to be a convenient excuse, rather than acknowledging other issues.

 

First of all, it's really difficult to determine whether receivers were getting open or creating separation without watching the All 22, and I doubt many people who are complaining about lack of separation on Monday night have watched the All 22.

 

Second, for a while now, the offensive play calling and route combinations haven't been very good. Receivers weren't getting separation because they were being asked to run bad routes. The staff didn't do a good job of scheming guys open.

 

Third, the OL play has been bad, which undermines offensive efficiency in general. 

 

Fourth, Luck is prone to holding the ball too long. Sometimes he doesn't see open receivers (and I think a big part of that has been the design of the offense, but some of it is definitely on him), other times he expects to have a shot down the field and waits, and there are are other reasons. And what makes it worse is that he's really good at hanging in and making plays down the field, so the potential reward for holding the ball is something of a deterrent to getting rid of it quickly.

 

Fifth, the receivers aren't great route runners, or haven't been in the past. I feel like a big part of that has been coaching/development, part of it is scouting, and part of it is on the players themselves. But, to me, the route running isn't the primary issue, nor is a lack of separation. 

 

On the third down in the red zone, when Luck threw the pick, Ryan Grant ran a slant/rub shallow cross from the left side and had a clear step on his man. Then, for some reason, he stopped at the left hash. Luck hadn't left the pocket yet, and the middle of the field was wide open, but Luck wasn't looking left at all. If he threw the pass to Grant in stride, there's a chance for a first down. 

 

Instead, Luck stays right like it's a half field read, then scrambles right rather than stepping up (which he could have done) and looking to the middle. Then he forces a throw that made zero sense. 

 

There are two glaring issues here: 1) Grant's route started good, but he didn't cross the middle like I think he should have; and 2) Luck's read was bad (not gonna mention his decision, that goes without saying). If that was the design of the play, then it's flawed, but I doubt you install and call a play with a rub/slant on the backside if you don't  want the QB to even look that way. 

 

But instead of acknowledging that the QB and receiver weren't on the same page and have some wrinkles to iron out, we can just blame the receivers for not getting open. I'm against that.

 

Call good plays, make sure the QB/WR are executing them well, and then let's see how big of a problem lack of separation really is. I'm thinking it's way down the list right now.

I just want to say that IMO Supe you have always been a great poster but man over the last year or two you seems to have taken it to another level.  I enjoy and learn more from your posts than just about anyone else.

 

I don't know what you do for a living but you should seriously approach the Colts about doing an "Inside the NFL" type show for the Colts.  I know I would tune in weekly.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Maybe Grant has been underwhelming but I will say, I bet you are basing your opinion of Grant in large part on his stat sheet.

 

During the preseason, the coaches care very little for most stats.  They probably look at drops and that's about it.  All they are looking at are things like, did the WR run the correct route, did he make his break at the correct time, did he use the proper technique when making the break, did they make the correct adjustment based on the D, did he find the right spot against zone.  

 

Knowing that is what the coaches are looking at, and a lot more, and the coaches and Ballard are saying they are comfortable with the WRs then I will believe them until they prove they should not be believed.

True, certainly I am baseing it on 2 pre season games and what I have heard or read from camp! And yes Ballard has said he is comfortable, on the other hand isn’t he suppose to say that? I just see IMO a lost look on his face during the game and the same was stated during camp.  At this point no connection with Luck! Some of which could be becuase Luck is still finding himself. After having the same surgery twice on my throwing shoulder it’s understanable. I will keep an open mind, but at this point my hope is another receiver rises to the top if he can’t!

[Hoose]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Reggie in the GB game was just another level, one of my favourite performances by an athlete in any sport. 

 

IIRC he got fined for his gloves! 

People discount how much the injury to Reggie changed things for the Colts offense. He was Luck's security blanket, knew how to get open, and caught everything near him. At that point in his career, he had become a phenomenal possession receiver. They haven't found a WR yet to replace him. TY's world would be so much better with someone even half as talented as Reggie on the other side of the field. Its way past time to get him a running mate. 

[Superman]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I just want to say that IMO Supe you have always been a great poster but man over the last year or two you seems to have taken it to another level.  I enjoy and learn more from your posts than just about anyone else.

 

I don't know what you do for a living but you should seriously approach the Colts about doing an "Inside the NFL" type show for the Colts.  I know I would tune in weekly.

 

Man, that's a huge compliment, especially from you because you know and have studied the game. I really appreciate it, thank you!

 

I wish I had more time to analyze and dissect games around the league. I have some down time right now, but this is generally not the case. 

[coltsfeva]

On 8/22/2018 at 1:39 PM, Freenyfan102 said:

Only good WR we have is TY Hilton and even then he disappears some game we do not have a true number 2 guy. Ryan Grant is not it. I can see next year draft drafting a WR in the first round and the rest be defense

   I remember Polian saying when they looked at receivers they looked for:

  1.  Exceptional route running

   2. Great hands

   3. Outstanding football IQ (he gave the example of a receiver making his route shallower, when the defense blitzed). 

 

    He said blazing speed was nice to have but it wasn’t as important as the other three things.

 

As far as a # 2 receiver: 

I’m hoping Pascal, Brent, Fountain or Rogers this year or Cain next year will step up and be a legit # 2. 

[Superman]

4 hours ago, DougDew said:

Agreed.  I use WR separation as a excuse, since I don't have the All 22.  I assume since Luck was a #1 pick and the best potential since Elway, that he can read pre-snap coverages and understand the offensive routes well enough to know who should be open and when.  Because of this, I attribute him holding the ball too long to receivers not getting open when he expects them to be open.  But maybe Luck's development hasn't progressed as everybody thought.

 

However, when Reggie was healthy, both Reggie and TY had significant success...with Satele, MacGoo, and Justice/Cherilous as the OL BTW....so WR play has to be a big part of the problems over recent years.

 

I've made no secret of the fact that I haven't been impressed with the offensive coaching over the last six years. So between the structure of the offense and the gameplans, and the development of the players, it's not surprising that any player on this roster hasn't progressed as much as they should have. That begins and ends with Luck.

 

That said, Luck has made plenty of progress. As a rookie, he was already one of the best deep field passers in the league. He continued to improve in going through progressions, ball placement, avoiding turnovers, etc. I thought his start of 2015 was pretty bad, but I also thought Pep Hamilton was out of his element. 

 

And I don't think any of the Colts offensive coaches have successfully helped Luck unlock the next stage to QB development. All the great/elite QBs get to a point where they own the offense -- they identify coverages pre-snap, they make adjustments, they hit hot receivers to beat blitzes, they tremendously cut their sacks/hits (aside from Rodgers), etc. This really shows in their efficiency -- completion percentage, yards/attempt, TD percentage, TD:INT ratio, etc. Luck hasn't gotten there yet, but he has shown the ability to produce at an elite level without those next level adjustments.

 

Now we have an offensive braintrust that is bringing a different approach and philosophy to that side of the ball. My hope is they will help Luck see the game from a better perspective, and that they will develop gameplans that take advantage of Luck's strengths without putting so much on his shoulders and exposing him to so much contact. Based on Reich's role in Wentz's development, I'm encouraged and hopeful.

 

I also hope they'll develop the other players on the offense -- coach up the blockers, the route runners, etc. As that happens, and as they give Luck more control on offense (we haven't seen any no-huddle from the 1s yet), I think we'll see Luck not only get back to where he was in 2014 and 2016, but become even more efficient while maintaining the explosive playmaking ability we've already seen. 

[Btown_Colt]

14 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I just want to say that IMO Supe you have always been a great poster but man over the last year or two you seems to have taken it to another level.  I enjoy and learn more from your posts than just about anyone else.

 

I don't know what you do for a living but you should seriously approach the Colts about doing an "Inside the NFL" type show for the Colts.  I know I would tune in weekly.

I agree with you about Superman’s posts. They are always excellent reads. 

 

But don’t sell yourself short, I always enjoy yours as well and have learned quite a bit from reading your posts. I don’t post much, but I read the forum daily and it doesn’t take long to figure which posters know what they are talking about and which ones don’t. There are some other posters I enjoy reading on here, but you and Superman are two of the best. 

[SteelCityColt]

[Lawrence Owen]

I think 50 % of our WR problems is the Vanilla play calling. 

I think in a normal game all OC's use plays that certain WR's run better than others.  Plays that use 'legal picks', Bunch formations, ECT.  When a play is called where ALL the WR's and TE's each have 3-4 yards space between them is asking each potential receiver to 'get open on your own'.

No matter how good a QB is, he can only see portions of a field at a time, so when a wr is open, he may not see it cause he is not in his field of vision at that moment.

I honestly think Rogers is very good at getting separation on his own.  Maybe as good as TY.  He does not have TY's speed, and that limits his big play ability.

Grant is another Moncrief, but slightly slower IMO.

I'd like to see Paskal and Ishmael in with the 1's and 2's just for eval purposes, but i am pretty that's not going to happen sadly.

 

[throwing BBZ]

On 8/22/2018 at 9:47 AM, dodsworth said:

What makes a WR have the knack to get open that had good speed such as

Jerry Rice and Reggie Wayne but Dorsett and others with high end speed

struggle to be efficient.

 

Alot of posters have stated that our receivers are not getting separation.

So what do our receivers 'except TY' have to do to get open?

 

 

 

This piece gives a great look at what the many tools are.
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/richard-sherman-seahawks-toughest-receivers-ive-ever-covered