Could Freeney/mathis Be Traded?

[BProland85]

No obviously Im not breaking news that this has happened, but it's a fair question....

Could either Freeney or Mathis be traded to acquire additional draft picks to further rebuild the youth of this team? I just dont see us keeping both since we still have Wheeler and Hughes who I feel could get to the QB under Pagano's guidance. So having both Mathis and Freeney would give us almost too many pass rushers when we could trade one of them to get help elsewhere on the team.

If one of them was traded, what could we get for them? I see Freeney as getting us more in return since he is still considered a top 5 pass rusher.

[jbaron04]

So if he is a top five rusher why trade him?

[Jaric]

Well we'd have to get mathis under contract in order to trade him.

And why would he sign a contract just so we can trade him to another team? Why wouldn't he just sign his contract with them instead of us?

Unless you aren't planning on telling him, which is pretty rude IMO.

[BProland85]

So if he is a top five rusher why trade him?

Cause he could start declining so we should entertain doing what the Pats did with Richard Seymour. And I just said in my post we may have too many capable guys who could play OLB if we keep both Freeney and Mathis.

[BProland85]

Well we'd have to get mathis under contract in order to trade him.

And why would he sign a contract just so we can trade him to another team? Why wouldn't he just sign his contract with them instead of us?

Unless you aren't planning on telling him, which is pretty rude IMO.

We would franchise Mathis and tag and trade him. Its been done plenty of times before.

[Kyle]

Cause he could start declining so we should entertain doing what the Pats did with Richard Seymour. And I just said in my post we may have too many capable guys who could play OLB if we keep both Freeney and Mathis.

you can NEVER have too many pass rushers

[Jaric]

We would franchise Mathis and tag and trade him. Its been done plenty of times before.

How many teams in the league can you think of willing to spends that kind of money (and whatever we want in trade) for an aging undersized speed rusher?

[KyFan18]

. What a problem. We now go from having the worst team in the NFL to having an embarrassment of riches and having to trade away guys that are at their prime because they will start to decline someday. .

[GoColts8818]

Mathis no he's a free agent. We would have to sign him to trade him and if we do that I am sure his contract will result in a cap hit that makes it unrealistic.

Freeney I am not sure what kinda cap hit would come with trading him but if he's due 19 million this year I can't see that being small and with us looking at paying $10 million in cap hits already with Manning probably being released I am not sure we can take another major cap hit this off-season.

We could choose to release Freeney and not resign Mathis to free up money but that's about it.

[jbaron04]

Semour is still playin good and u need pass rushers in this league of pass happy offenses, plus how our u so sure freeney has declined or is it the talent around him?

[jskinnz]

We would franchise Mathis and tag and trade him. Its been done plenty of times before.

When has this been done before?

[Smitto]

name of this was a bit mis leading... got excited for a bit cause of the draft picks, then quickly remembered that freeney and mathis would have been gone.

[jwilli69]

^{Wheeler is a free agent as well. No on trading Mathis with a franchise tag either. Don't see it as an option. Sometimes you just have to accept things and move forward. Plenty of teams lose good players every year and seem to rebond ok. We just have to accept some guys are ready to move on and Mathis, Wayne and Saturday are all at this point. Keep Mathis and Wayne if the price would be right but I think they both want maximum money and I think thats where you just have to move on.}

[MrPreGame]

If u think we would have too many pass rushers then the Giants should be in worse shape than us. Oh wait....

[Jason_]

It depends on what they want to do with the defense, how well either Freeney or Mathis would be able to make the transition to OLB in a 3-4 (if Pagano decides to play a primarily 3-4 defense) and whether or not Freeney and/or Mathis would want to make the transition. If they want to use a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 then it would make sense to try to keep both. However, if they want to run primarily a 3-4 then trading one of them might be a smart move unless both are eager to and able to make the transition to 3-4 OLB.

If we traded Freeney then I believe all we would owe him against the cap is whatever remains of his signing bonus. This should be a relatively minimal hit because he is in his final year (I believe) so it would only be one year's worth of the bonus as opposed to Manning's situation where we would owe him what would otherwise have been divided up between 4 years.

I can't specifically recall any example in the past when a player was tagged and then traded but it's not entirely impossible. The trading team would simply need to be able to speak with Mathis in order to be sure they can finalize a new deal before finalizing the trade.

I agree that trading a premiere pass rusher is a big risk, but at the same time we have to be sure they'd fit in with the new defensive philosophies and system. if they don't then there's no poing keeping tem around, especially considering how much money each will be making. Yes, pass rushers are always needed but that's one of the things about switching to a 3-4 instead of a 4-3...Linebackers are easier to find (and cheaper) than DE's who excel at pass rushing. I read somewhere that was the reason given by Bill Parcells as to why he switched to a 3-4. With the way rules and tendencies are changing in the league, it is important to have a good pass rush but it's also becoming more and more important to have solid man-coverage CBs because new rules (hit on defenseless receivers) are making it harder to play zone coverage. If we could get a late first or early second plus maybe even a mid to late round pick for one of them then I'm all for it. From the impressions I've gotten and things I've read, the FO wants to switch to an aggressive style of 3-4 primarily and to do that we're going to need to bolster the DL (by getting guys who fit better into a 3-4) and the secondary.

[Coltsagent]

Do you really think you can just trade Pro-Bowl D ends and plug in some rookie or unproven 3rd year players and get the same production?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Trading Freeney would cause a 5 million cap hit of dead space.

Mathis would have to be tagged to be eligible to traded. If he were signed, then he could be traded, but we would then have salary cap ramifications based on whatever the specs of the deal turned out to be.

The team that received Freeney would then likely turn 12-13 of his 14 million base salary for 2012 into a signing bonus and extend his contract. For this to happen, we would likely have to grant Freeney's agent to shop his services around and the Colts and that team would have to agree on compensation.

[BuildtheMonster1285]

Way to scare me with the title, SuperBowlOrBust85!!!! LOL

[BProland85]

It depends on what they want to do with the defense, how well either Freeney or Mathis would be able to make the transition to OLB in a 3-4 (if Pagano decides to play a primarily 3-4 defense) and whether or not Freeney and/or Mathis would want to make the transition. If they want to use a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 then it would make sense to try to keep both. However, if they want to run primarily a 3-4 then trading one of them might be a smart move unless both are eager to and able to make the transition to 3-4 OLB.

If we traded Freeney then I believe all we would owe him against the cap is whatever remains of his signing bonus. This should be a relatively minimal hit because he is in his final year (I believe) so it would only be one year's worth of the bonus as opposed to Manning's situation where we would owe him what would otherwise have been divided up between 4 years.

I can't specifically recall any example in the past when a player was tagged and then traded but it's not entirely impossible. The trading team would simply need to be able to speak with Mathis in order to be sure they can finalize a new deal before finalizing the trade.

I agree that trading a premiere pass rusher is a big risk, but at the same time we have to be sure they'd fit in with the new defensive philosophies and system. if they don't then there's no poing keeping tem around, especially considering how much money each will be making. Yes, pass rushers are always needed but that's one of the things about switching to a 3-4 instead of a 4-3...Linebackers are easier to find (and cheaper) than DE's who excel at pass rushing. I read somewhere that was the reason given by Bill Parcells as to why he switched to a 3-4. With the way rules and tendencies are changing in the league, it is important to have a good pass rush but it's also becoming more and more important to have solid man-coverage CBs because new rules (hit on defenseless receivers) are making it harder to play zone coverage. If we could get a late first or early second plus maybe even a mid to late round pick for one of them then I'm all for it. From the impressions I've gotten and things I've read, the FO wants to switch to an aggressive style of 3-4 primarily and to do that we're going to need to bolster the DL (by getting guys who fit better into a 3-4) and the secondary.

If we could get a late 1st for Freeney and use that pick on NT Dontari Poe and then get CB Dre Kirkpatrick somehow by trading our 2nd and maybe Dallas Clark to move up in the draft we'd then have 2 defenders to build around.

[GoColts8818]

If we could get a late 1st for Freeney and use that pick on NT Dontari Poe and then get CB Dre Kirkpatrick somehow by trading our 2nd and maybe Dallas Clark to move up in the draft we'd then have 2 defenders to build around.

You probably aren't going to get a first rounder for Freeney everyone was shocked when the Raiders gave up a first rounder for Seymour who was younger at the time of the trade. Other than cap reasons the main reason you don't see player trades in the NFL is you don't get anything close to equal value back in return for them.

[husker61]

We would franchise Mathis and tag and trade him. Its been done plenty of times before.

can you list a couple of those times?

[husker61]

you can't get anything close to freeney's value in a trade, if anything. the colts can only hope to extend his contract and lessen the cap number creatively (hopefully) or cut him.

[Warhorse]

Cause he could start declining so we should entertain doing what the Pats did with Richard Seymour. And I just said in my post we may have too many capable guys who could play OLB if we keep both Freeney and Mathis.

So how many SB's have the Pats won since they traded Seymour? I think it was incredibly arrogant of BB to think he could just plug someone else in. Serves them right. Just like it would us if we let our two best pass rushers go. Say hello to qb's getting 5+seconds to make a throw.

[Andy]

Freeney has a big contract and Mathis is a free agent. Won't find any good deals out there.

[The Fish]

If we start Luck, and follow through on the unmentionable, Frathis and Wayne ect could stay.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Freeney has a big contract and Mathis is a free agent. Won't find any good deals out there.

Freeney's contract is perfect to turn into an extension and even more so for a new team.

[Portage Coltfans]

Pagano will struggle if he doesn't address this roster (defensive). Look at the studs he had for the Ravens. We are talking HOFers. The colts linebacking core compared to the Raven's is not even in the same quality category. Angerer/brackett no way = the talent on the ravens

they are going to have to trade freeney, he can't play OLB. and the DE in a 3-4 needs to be a stud of size (Ngata).

[BProland85]

you can't get anything close to freeney's value in a trade, if anything. the colts can only hope to extend his contract and lessen the cap number creatively (hopefully) or cut him.

Im not buying that. Im willing to bet we could get a late 1st/early 2nd for Freeney since FireJimCaldwell made a good point that his contract is easy to extend for whoever the future team is. Plus he is still a premier pass rusher so we could get some good value for him. With Mathis, Hughes, and Wheeler at OLB we really can survive without Freeney since our pass rush will be more creative in allowing guys to get to the QB under Pagano.

Id rather use what we get for Freeney in a trade for a player like Dre Kirkpatrick, Mark Barron, or Dontari Poe in the draft.

[BProland85]

Pagano will struggle if he doesn't address this roster (defensive). Look at the studs he had for the Ravens. We are talking HOFers. The colts linebacking core compared to the Raven's is not even in the same quality category. Angerer/brackett no way = the talent on the ravens

they are going to have to trade freeney, he can't play OLB. and the DE in a 3-4 needs to be a stud of size (Ngata).

I do feel both Moala and Nevis could play 3-4 DE for us. We just need that big NT so a guy like Dontari Poe in the draft makes sense or Alameda Ta'amu or Josh Chapman in the 3rd. But yeah Freeney needs to be trade while Mathis needs to be retained to be a beast at OLB.

[John Dee]

Do you really think you can just trade Pro-Bowl D ends and plug in some rookie or unproven 3rd year players and get the same production?

Ummm ya... 18 tackles 8.5 sacks for D Free, and what 43 tackkes and 9.5 Mathis? Pretty darn average numbers for "All Pro" ends....

Mathis I want back, but Freeney has been the most over rated and over paid player in the NFL for a few years now.

[John Dee]

you can't get anything close to freeney's value in a trade, if anything. the colts can only hope to extend his contract and lessen the cap number creatively (hopefully) or cut him.

really... look at his career numbers...

[Jack Burton]

We would franchise Mathis and tag and trade him. Its been done plenty of times before.

When has this been done before?

can you list a couple of those times?

[BProland85]

Ok I have gotten mixed answers to this thread, but for those who agree with me that Freeney could and should be traded to bring us more young talent...

What could we expect to get back in a trade for Freeney?

[Portage Coltfans]

Ok I have gotten mixed answers to this thread, but for those who agree with me that Freeney could and should be traded to bring us more young talent...

What could we expect to get back in a trade for Freeney?

I think the pats got a #1 pick for Richard seymour, to the raiders though.

[HungarianColtsFan]

In my opinion they shouldn't be traded. Pass rushers are important nowadays. As far as I can see most of the teams are playing "pass short and rush", and that helped us too last season through last 4-5 games. Especially if we have a rookie starter QB (as so many wish), experienced pass rushers will be essential.

[betheafan41]

you must not know about the giants defense. 4 very good pass rushers and they have a defensive play called " nascar rush " that they put all 4 pass rushers on the dl and send them after the QB. you can never have enough especially if one gets hurt.

[COLT in J-ville]

name of this was a bit mis leading... got excited for a bit cause of the draft picks, then quickly remembered that freeney and mathis would have been gone.

What was your take on the Super Bowl Smitto? I'm still confused as to if you are a Colts fan or a Pats fan due to some of the posts I've read. Can you clear this up for me? No seriously I'm not being a *, I'm just curious.. I don't care if you like the Pats

[doogansquest]

Ummm ya... 18 tackles 8.5 sacks for D Free, and what 43 tackkes and 9.5 Mathis? Pretty darn average numbers for "All Pro" ends....

Mathis I want back, but Freeney has been the most chipped, double teamed, and over-schemed player in the NFL for a few years now.

Fixed it for you. Besides, the production of our whole team was down this year. Hardly a gauge of anything.

It's not possible to get back, in trade, the attention Freeney demands from opposing offenses.

[jskinnz]

We would franchise Mathis and tag and trade him. Its been done plenty of times before.

There are at least 3 posts in this thread asking for evidence of this but none have been answered. My suspicion is that you created this answer in your head to suit your argument but please, prove me wrong on that.

[GoColts8818]

Fixed it for you. Besides, the production of our whole team was down this year. Hardly a gauge of anything.

It's not possible to get back, in trade, the attention Freeney demands from opposing offenses.

Exactly If you listen to every team we play they adjust their offensive game plan because of Freeney and Mathis. While they might not have had the best numbers in the world this season they are still the two players on our defense that teams fear. If we trade them who do we have that other teams look at on defense and go gee we are going to have a hard time stopping them? Bethea and Angerer are good players but they are more reaction type players. Meaning the make plays after the offensive has done something. Freeney and Mathis are about only two attacking players on defense meaning they try to disrupt the other teams offense before something happens.

I don't think either is going any place. First of all didn't someone have a quote from Irsay saying as much? Didn't Pagano say he didn't see an issue with them becoming 3-4 linebackers? Also, while Peyton Manning has been the face of our team Freeney has been the second face. I don't see us dumping the two faces of our franchise in one off-season.

Yes something needs to be done with Freeney's contract but I think what you will see is that the Colts extend him three or four years and lower that cap number. Mathis will be tagged and a long term contract will be worked out with him or maybe they play him under the franchise tag for a year and see if Hughes can step up in a 3-4 defense and then let Mathis leave or extend him after that.

With Freeney and Mathis you have something to build around on defense, if you dump them you are pretty much starting over completely on defense and if we are going to take a QB with our top over all pick that's not a good spot to be in.

Also I've heard it hinted at by Pagano he would like to do the hybrid type defense where you play a little 3-4 and a little 4-3. Maybe what you see is Freeney play end on 4-3 plays while Hughes plays linebacker on 3-4 plays to rest Freeney.

Also for all the people who say Freeney and Mathis can't play the run I am not sure I buy that. I think it's more of a case that they haven't been asked too. The Colts in the past haven't hidden the fact they wanted Freeney and Mathis to go get the QB. They counted on the linebackers to handle the run behind Freeney and Mathis.

You can't give away all your good players. This team already has enough holes to fill without having to add to it the poistions of speed rushers.