Chuck Pagano the Next Marvin Lewis?

[Steamboat_Shaun]

13 hours ago, Superman said:

I can't believe there are people defending Marvin Lewis in this thread. And I'm accused of being content with mediocrity...

 

He's been the head coach for 14 years, and has never won a playoff game. Rex Ryan, Mike Smith, Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, Ken Whisenhunt -- all coaches who have been hired and fired, some twice, since Lewis has been in Cincinnati, and all of them have more playoff wins than him. 

In 14 years, he's exactly 14 games over .500. He's basically a perennial 9-7 coach. He has 3 ties; this board would melt down like the Wicked Witch of the West if the Colts ever had a tie. He has four losing seasons and three 8-8 seasons. They've missed the playoffs 7 of his 14 years.

 

This is the definition of mediocre. And it's been going on for a decade and a half, so there's no hope of him getting better.

 

The only defense for Marvin Lewis keeping his job is 'but they were so awful before he got there!' Wow.

 

If the Bengals had gotten rid of him anytime after his 6th year, in which they won 4 games, they could have hired Jon Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, Whisenhunt, Pete Carroll, Jim Harbaugh, John Fox, Gary Kubiak -- all coaches who have at least been to the SB. 

 

SMH...

 

I have a lot of friends who are Bengals fans, and you should hear them defend him. And they even have the audacity to rip guys like Mike Tomlin because he won a SB with "Cowher's team." Laughable, but kind of sad at the same time.

[gacoop1]

This team(Colts) is going to be marred in mediocrity for years to come, probably beyond my lifetime if they keep these two *s on board.  I'm not even going to stress out on something beyond my control, all I can say or do is provide my two cents every now and then.....

[2006Coltsbestever]

I don't know how anyone can defend Marvin Lewis, he has Coached the Bengals for 14 seasons and doesn't even have 1 Playoff win. He has had some Very Good Defenses + AJ Green for several seasons and Andy Dalton who isn't a bum (Dalton has been better than Average his whole career) and not 1 Playoff win?? Really. Chuck isn't all of that but he's better than Lewis.

[21isSuperman]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

No, I did not. I simply pointed out that the Bengals have kept zero wins Marvin for 14 years, while other teams have hired and fired coaches who have had far more playoff success. 

You're saying the Bengals could have fired Lewis and hired one of those other coaches - including worse coaches than Lewis - who have had more playoff success.  Those coaches, some of whom are worse coaches than Lewis, have made Super Bowls and won playoff games.  If a good coach in Lewis can't win the playoff games in Cincy, then what makes you think a coach like Whiz would have been better in the same situation?  Put Lewis in Denver with Peyton Manning as his QB and see how many playoff wins he gets.  Put Lewis in Indy with Luck as his QB and see how many playoff wins he gets.  Put Whiz, Fox,or Pagano as head coach of the Bengals in the AFC North during the days when the Ravens and Steelers ran the division and see how they do.  Playoff success isn't the only measuring stick for how good a person or player is.  By that logic, Terry Bradshaw is better than Peyton Manning, Joe Flacco is better than Dan Marino, and Trent Dilfer is better than Phillip Rivers.  Not only that, but take away Carson Palmer's infamous knee injury in the 2005 playoffs and Lewis very likely has a few playoff wins under his belt.  Take away Dalton's thumb injury last year and they likely get a playoff win.

 

Quote

Don't make the mistake of viewing my comments here as a defense of Pagano. They are only a condemnation of Lewis, who has had less success than Pagano, and who has been in his position three times longer than Pagano, whom you consider to be a lost cause. Yet, you defend Lewis... muy interesante...

 

Because I think Lewis is a better coach than Pagano and has accomplished more than Pagano.  Again, I'm not saying Lewis is the best coach in the NFL, or even a top 5 coach.  I'm saying he's a better coach than Pagano.  Take Luck away from Pagano and how do the Colts do in the last 5 years?  As good as Palmer is/was, he's nowhere near Luck's abilities.  I think Lewis has a better eye for talent both on the football field (look at his roster) and on the sidelines (Jay Gruden, Mike Zimmer, Hue Jackson have all become head coaches).  Lewis actually did what Pagano said he wanted to do: build a team with a strong running game and a strong defense.  He also managed to do it in one of the league's more competitive divisions.

 

Quote

There's no defense for a coach with Marvin Lewis' resume, and there's no reason to be optimistic about his future.

I strongly disagree.  If I'm Marvin Lewis, I'm very confident.  Even if the Bengals fire him, which I don't think they will, I think teams will be very eager to bring him aboard elsewhere.  Lewis helped build the Bengals and they have one of the most successful stretches in their franchise's history from 2011 to 2015

 

Marvin Lewis: 1x coach of the year, one of only four coaches to lead their team to the playoffs each year from 2011 to 2015, 3 former assistants are currently head coaches, 21-8-1 from 2012 to 2014 against non-divisional opponents

Pagano: 0x coach of the year, missed the playoffs in 2015, 0 former assistants are currently head coaches, 17-13 from 2012 to 2014 against non-divisional opponents

 

If you're wondering, I picked 2012 to 2014 because Pagano began in 2012 and I gave Pagano 2015 off in that category because of the injury to Luck

[Nadine]

6 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

There is gluten free lasagna that you can make with rice flour with crushed kale or spinach thrown in, just won't taste like the regular thing, I have had it and it tastes fine if you make it right. 

 

However, I do get your point.

I made a gluten free veggie lasagna for xmas.  The key is the sauce and also anything with cheese is bound to be popular!

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

As it is with most every coach 

 

I understand that,  but the poster I was responding to stated Irsay would never fire Pagano as Cincy has not fired Marvin Jones.

 

Context matters.....

 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I have to laugh at some of this. People reach the conclusion that, because Irsay didn't fire Pagano after one bad season -- in which the QB missed 9 games, and they went 6-3 without him -- he'll never get rid of him. It's amazing to me.

 

Somehow, Irsay is being painted as a detached owner who doesn't care about winning, simply because he didn't fire his coach after one bad season (that wasn't even that bad). 

 

A year ago, people were accusing Irsay of being some impetuous and unpredictable owner who dared not to extend this same coach after an AFCCG appearance. 

 

I'm at a loss...

 

Ding!     Ding!     Ding!

 

There it is!          My Favorite Post of the Day!          

 

You have a simpler, cleaner, more straightforward way of writing that gets through the clutter.      Wish I had your gift.       But I also wish more people would read your post and then read it again.     And one more time if need be!

 

 

[Jason_]

5 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

You can make the case it is.  It's certainly not getting much better.

 

Its also very easy to make a case explaining why the team appeared to have regressed THIS year (prior to this year, the team had shown progress every year) and why its very easy to believe the team will be much improved next year if the current coaching staff remains in place.

[Bruce MacGillivray]

I've always felt that coaches get too much blame for losses, and too much credit for wins.  Even here, people will acknowledge that our roster has a lot of holes in it, yet everyone wants to blame the coaches when we get beat.

 

Many blame the coach for the poor starts--apparently it's Chuck Pagano's fault that professional footballers getting paid millions can't get themselves up for a game.  We are one of the worst teams in the League for drops--apparently it's Chuck Pagano's fault that professional footballers getting paid millions can't hold onto the ball when it's thrown in their direction.

 

Last season, we were without our franchise QB for most of the year, our O-line was a total wipeout, and the world was about to end.  We may have a worse record this year than last, yet the signs are positive.  The O-line is young and promising.  Luck needs to be a bit more selective--having to punt or tossing the ball out of bounds are not the worst thing you can do.  Doyle and Swoope are very promising TE, and hopefully our WR group can improve.  We do need a solid young RB to backup up replace Gore down the track.

 

We have huge holes on Defence, but that should be addressed in the off-season.  Geathers and Green are promising Safeties--hopefully Davis can stay fit.  We desperately need to address pass rush (especially with Mathis retiring), and again, the draft gives plenty of options in that area.

[Gavin]

Chucks first five years coaching:

48 wins......possibly 49 with a win Sunday

31 losses.....possibly 32 with a loss Sunday

6 playoff games 3 playoff wins 3 playoff losses

 

Lewis: 42 wins 38 losses

1 playoff game 1 playoff game loss

 

Despite this I think its fair to point out that many GM's/Owners don't just point to a coaches win loss record as a tell of how good or bad of a coach an employed coach is. Not a defense of Pagano and not a strike against Lewis but I think I think its clear from both organizations that they both have a hard line stance that players ultimately win and lose games and players can make a HC look bad or good depending on execution and that just making a HC change wont right the ship.

 

[Rally5]

On 12/30/2016 at 2:12 AM, Superman said:

I can't believe there are people defending Marvin Lewis in this thread. And I'm accused of being content with mediocrity...

 

He's been the head coach for 14 years, and has never won a playoff game. Rex Ryan, Mike Smith, Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, Ken Whisenhunt -- all coaches who have been hired and fired, some twice, since Lewis has been in Cincinnati, and all of them have more playoff wins than him. 

In 14 years, he's exactly 14 games over .500. He's basically a perennial 9-7 coach. He has 3 ties; this board would melt down like the Wicked Witch of the West if the Colts ever had a tie. He has four losing seasons and three 8-8 seasons. They've missed the playoffs 7 of his 14 years.

 

This is the definition of mediocre. And it's been going on for a decade and a half, so there's no hope of him getting better.

 

The only defense for Marvin Lewis keeping his job is 'but they were so awful before he got there!' Wow.

 

If the Bengals had gotten rid of him anytime after his 6th year, in which they won 4 games, they could have hired Jon Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, Whisenhunt, Pete Carroll, Jim Harbaugh, John Fox, Gary Kubiak -- all coaches who have at least been to the SB. 

 

SMH...

 

Thanks!

[themacs@feathersnfins.net]

Your Correct In Your Assumption That Marvin Lewis Is Just A  Coach. Now Why Has Not He Been Let Go?

Cuase Maybe Ownership Has Decided CHANGE For The Sake Of Change IS Wrong & Not Good. Not Saying Keep Marvin Lewis ... Don`t Care.. Do Care AS To Keeping Coach Chuck Need To Have Another Year To Turn It Around. Need Another Defensive Draft . Solved O Line This Year Next Year Need To Work On Defence 

[Dustin]

On 12/30/2016 at 2:12 AM, Superman said:

I can't believe there are people defending Marvin Lewis in this thread. And I'm accused of being content with mediocrity...

 

He's been the head coach for 14 years, and has never won a playoff game. Rex Ryan, Mike Smith, Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, Ken Whisenhunt -- all coaches who have been hired and fired, some twice, since Lewis has been in Cincinnati, and all of them have more playoff wins than him. 

In 14 years, he's exactly 14 games over .500. He's basically a perennial 9-7 coach. He has 3 ties; this board would melt down like the Wicked Witch of the West if the Colts ever had a tie. He has four losing seasons and three 8-8 seasons. They've missed the playoffs 7 of his 14 years.

 

This is the definition of mediocre. And it's been going on for a decade and a half, so there's no hope of him getting better.

 

The only defense for Marvin Lewis keeping his job is 'but they were so awful before he got there!' Wow.

 

If the Bengals had gotten rid of him anytime after his 6th year, in which they won 4 games, they could have hired Jon Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, Whisenhunt, Pete Carroll, Jim Harbaugh, John Fox, Gary Kubiak -- all coaches who have at least been to the SB. 

 

SMH...

 

#HCWINZ

[Colts_Fan12]

23 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't know about or care about Cincy.....

 

But I care about the Colts and I can flat out guarantee that Irsay can and will fire Pagano.     Maybe not on your timeline,  but he will fire him.

 

Look,  Irsay was THIS CLOSE to firing Pagano a year ago.     He may be close to firing him now.     If we lose Sunday,  I wouldn't put it past him.     But if we win,  I think Pagano is safe.

 

But even then,  Pagano would be year to year.    His job would be on the line in 2017 and he could easily get fired a year from now.       

 

Irsay can and will fire Pagano someday if things don't get better soon..    The question is when and not if.

 

 

I agree but I just thought that's what the author was talking about when comparing them 

[21isSuperman]

18 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

Its also very easy to make a case explaining why the team appeared to have regressed THIS year (prior to this year, the team had shown progress every year) and why its very easy to believe the team will be much improved next year if the current coaching staff remains in place.

Does this coaching staff really give you hope for the future?  The continual decisions that don't make sense, like having Allen block Clowney, passing the ball on 4th and short situations, bad gameplans that don't put players in good positions.  You think this coaching staff can get better despite these problems existing for several years?

[VocableLoki]

The situations are really different for how they started: Lewis inherited one of the worst teams in the NFL (Bengals of the 90's/early 00's were just terrible), Pagano picked up a franchise after one down year and had a franchise quarterback right off the bat. In fact, five years in I think they are completely different in terms of success/expectations.

[Jason_]

15 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

Does this coaching staff really give you hope for the future?  The continual decisions that don't make sense, like having Allen block Clowney, passing the ball on 4th and short situations, bad gameplans that don't put players in good positions.  You think this coaching staff can get better despite these problems existing for several years?

 

Well this "coaching staff" has only been in existence for one year. I feel like 90% of the fan base keeps forgetting that.

 

Btw, the colts are hardly the only team to leave a TE one on one with a premiere pass rusher. Since the colts switched to a 3-4, mathis has been blocked one on one by the other team's TE a number of times. Granted, most of those times ended up in a sack so I'm not saying its necessarily a smart thing to do, but its done quite a bit.  

 

I actually remember griping here on the forum many years ago when Dallas Clark was left one on one with Mario Williams, which led to an easy williams sack on manning. Then on the other hand, I remember a couple of times in a game against baltimore where fleener was left one on one with elvis dumerville and fleener kept him away from Luck.

 

All that said, my biggest gripe with the current staff has been chuds gameplanning and playcalling. The minnesota game was great...but thats really the only game I can think of where I remember thinking how happy I was with chud once the game was over.

[Superman]

On 12/31/2016 at 9:19 AM, Dustin said:

 

#HCWINZ

 

When you're the head coach for one team over 14 years, yes, your W/L record is a reflection of your coaching ability and expertise.

[21isSuperman]

10 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

Well this "coaching staff" has only been in existence for one year. I feel like 90% of the fan base keeps forgetting that.

 

Btw, the colts are hardly the only team to leave a TE one on one with a premiere pass rusher. Since the colts switched to a 3-4, mathis has been blocked one on one by the other team's TE a number of times. Granted, most of those times ended up in a sack so I'm not saying its necessarily a smart thing to do, but its done quite a bit.  

 

I actually remember griping here on the forum many years ago when Dallas Clark was left one on one with Mario Williams, which led to an easy williams sack on manning. Then on the other hand, I remember a couple of times in a game against baltimore where fleener was left one on one with elvis dumerville and fleener kept him away from Luck.

 

All that said, my biggest gripe with the current staff has been chuds gameplanning and playcalling. The minnesota game was great...but thats really the only game I can think of where I remember thinking how happy I was with chud once the game was over.

Be that as it may, I still consider Lewis a better head coach than Pagano and I think there's a wealth of evidence supporting that.  The only thing Pagano has on Lewis is playoff wins, but also consider that the Colts play in an awful division and Pagano was gifted Luck whereas Lewis has had to work with Kitna, Palmer (and his injuries), and Dalton (and his injuries).  Give Marvin Lewis a QB like Andrew Luck and let him coach in the awful AFC South and see what his win/loss record is.  Put Chuck Pagano in the AFC North with the aforementioned QBs and see how he does. 

 

Marvin Lewis went 4-1 against the AFC South from 2012 to 2014.  Against common non-divisional opponents (ignoring head-to-head matchups) in 2012 (Miami, KC), 2013 (San Diego), 2014 (Denver, New England):

Marvin Lewis: 3-2, scored 22.4 ppg and gave up 20.8 ppg

Chuck Pagano: 2-3, scored 20.8 ppg and gave up 25 ppg

 

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

When you're the head coach for one team over 14 years, yes, your W/L record is a reflection of your coaching ability and expertise.

If you only look at win/loss record and ignore the context, you're not getting the complete picture.  Win/loss record is a reflection to some degree, but not the bottom line.  If you give me the '72 Dolphins and I go 8-8, but you get the '08 Lions and go 6-10, who did a better job of coaching?

[Superman]

1 minute ago, 21isSuperman said:

If you only look at win/loss record and ignore the context, you're not getting the complete picture.  Win/loss record is a reflection to some degree, but not the bottom line.  If you give me the '72 Dolphins and I go 8-8, but you get the '08 Lions and go 6-10, who did a better job of coaching?

 

This is an entirely meaningless hypothetical.

 

There's plenty of context in my posts, I am not only looking at W/L record. Marvin Lewis is a mediocre head coach, and there's 14 years of evidence.

[Superman]

On 12/30/2016 at 2:51 PM, 21isSuperman said:

You're saying the Bengals could have fired Lewis and hired one of those other coaches - including worse coaches than Lewis - who have had more playoff success. 

 

No I'm not. I don't know why you keep trying to put that argument on me, it's not at all what I'm saying. My point is simply that Marvin Lewis has gotten a lot of rope, and hasn't done anything meaningful with it. Around the league, coaches with more achievements have been nixed much more quickly, even Pagano has more achievements than Lewis, yet you're vigorously defending Lewis. 

 

Quote

Not only that, but take away Carson Palmer's infamous knee injury in the 2005 playoffs and Lewis very likely has a few playoff wins under his belt.  Take away Dalton's thumb injury last year and they likely get a playoff win.

 

What a stretch. What about the other 5 playoff losses?

 

[21isSuperman]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

This is an entirely meaningless hypothetical.

 

There's plenty of context in my posts, I am not only looking at W/L record. Marvin Lewis is a mediocre head coach, and there's 14 years of evidence.

The point is you have to look at context.  You can't always look at the W/L record and call it the bottom line.

 

Just now, Superman said:

What a stretch. What about the other 5 playoff losses?

I'm not defending everything he's done, but the evidence supports that he's a better coach than Pagano

[Jason_]

6 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

 

I'm not defending everything he's done, but the evidence supports that he's a better coach than Pagano

 

He's also had 14 years experience as a HC compared to pagano's 5. So to keep with your theme of keeping things in context, the more important question is this...is pagano a better HC right now than Lewis was in his 5th year as HC.

 

Lets also not forget, the original question was "is pagano the next Marvin Lewis?"  The question was not, "which is the better HC right now?" 

[Mr Coffee]

On 12/30/2016 at 11:30 AM, indyagent17 said:

That is a great analogy. Norv and Chuck are very much alike but they are not good head coaches, Norv is a solid coordinator but with Chuck being a defensive specialist and creating a such a poor defense I am not sure Chuck should be working anywhere else once he leaves here

The thing is, Norv was definitely a good to very good coordinator.  Chuck was only a coordinator for one year, so he hasn't even proven that he's a solid coordinator.  Keep in mind that he coached some of the best defensive players that the game has ever during his one year tenure in Baltimore.  If we let Chuck go after this year, I wouldn't be surprised if no one wants him as a coordinator, and instead hires him on as a DB coach, or something like that.  That may be his niche.

[21isSuperman]

11 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

He's also had 14 years experience as a HC compared to pagano's 5. So to keep with your theme of keeping things in context, the more important question is this...is pagano a better HC right now than Lewis was in his 5th year as HC.

 

Lets also not forget, the original question was "is pagano the next Marvin Lewis?"  The question was not, "which is the better HC right now?" 

At least Lewis has shown promise during his tenure as a head coach whereas Pagano keeps making bad decisions that cost his team wins.  Pagano's defenses don't put players in the best positions to be successful whereas Lewis has had some very good defenses.

 

If we go back to the original question, my response would be no because Lewis is a better coach than Pagano, so Pagano will not be the next Marvin Lewis.  That's why the comparisons between the two came up